Talk:Holit attack

Merger?

The usual suspects applied for the deletion of this page. Allow for a "Hamas massacres on 7 October 2023" page, and I'd be happy to discuss it. That would be a less disingenuous attempt at whitewashing and worth considering. Attacking military bases is one thing, although one can apply the rules of war - or not; attacking civilian towns for murder & hostage-taking goes under "terrorism" and is another biest altogether. Arminden (talk) 12:41, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Memorial

Ayenaee, is the list of casualties (given at Holit_massacre#Details_of_casualties_and_hostages_unfolding_over_time) appropriate, given WP:MEMORIAL? VR _talk 01:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Hi VR, I’m aware of MEMORIAL and I thought about the list being seen in that light. But it was not intended to be. My writing process is to first summarise all the resources and then base the article off those sources (as you can see in the Nir Yitzhak article and talk page). Much of the nobility of these articles come from coverage of what happens to people, and these stories are spread over several resources. So I start these articles by puttingv together the C&H list to keep track of what happened to the people.
• This is especially useful to keep track of:

• People initially considered missing subsequently found dead or less likely (so far in the articles I’ve worked on) taken hostage
• Hostages released or still kept in captivity
• Injured recovered or not

I will be adding text to the story as I proceed with the update. At that point I could discard the list. But for list/table oriented people (like me) the complexity of the text becomes difficult to follow without the visual aid. So the aim is not to memorialize but to make the article accessible to more people. Ayenaee (talk) 06:58, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In that case do you want to do that in the draft space or in your sandbox? It can always be brought back once its ready. VR _talk 20:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you’re right, I was getting ahead of myself. Thanks. Ayenaee (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 10 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. I was very tempted to close as "no consensus" on the grounds that not a single !voter cited the correct controlling policy, which is WP:NDESC. WP:COMMONNAME and WP:POVNAME do not apply and were not fashioned for the circumstances of this discussion.

But NDESC does rely on WP:NPOV, and that still leaves the characterization of reliable sources as the controlling factor, although in a slightly broader manner than supporters suggest. I might have entertained the argument that, by nature of being a descriptive title, NDESC considers the content in the article in whole, instead of the specific turns of phrase journalists choose. The citation of The Guardian was particularly sloppy, given that the article also refers to it as a part of a pattern of "assuault"s and takes the tone of horror in covering the entire tragedy. Overall, however, the tenor of the arguments in support are solid. The opposition, by contrast, leaned largely on a pragmatic assessment of the events of the attack. Combined with the opposition being outnumbered 5 to 9, I see consensus to move. No prejudice against an RM from "Holit attack" towards something like BarrelProof's "Attack on Holit kibbutz". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:55, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

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The following close was vacated per a participant request - the discussion has been re-listed for more comment and an admin close.

The result of the move request was: Moved - It was a common ground of people on both sides of the discussion that "attack" likely prevails over "massacre" in descriptions of this event in reliable sources numerically. This was by itself a very strong argument in favour of moving that would take a strong numerical and/or argumentative showing in the other direction to close as not moved.

The strongest point in opposition was essentially about whether "attack" was also an accurate descriptor. Ayenaee argued very forcefully and convincingly that it was a massacre (and I agree: it was a massacre, and I thank Ayenaee for their contribution to this discussion). For this reason, it was hard to give a lot of weight to the argument that "massacre" is a POV name, since it is clearly accurate given the facts. Showing that it was a POV name would require casting doubt on it having been a massacre from non-fringe viewpoints, but this was not done and likely could not be done.

However the argument that was less developed in this discussion was about whether it was inaccurate to describe it as an attack. To overcome the point about "attack" being the WP:COMMONNAME it was necessary not just to show that "massacre" was accurate, but to show that the name we would otherwise favour under WP:COMMONNAME was inaccurate to the extent that "massacre" should be favoured. However, this was not shown decisively. As פעמי-עליון pointed out - every massacre is also an attack.

I did consider a relisting of this discussion, however the recent surge in voting in favour of the move makes it unlikely that the outcome would be changed. If any one on this thread would prefer an admin close to this controversial discussion, come and find me on my talk page and I will happily vacate and give you the opportunity to get that - but you may be waiting some time as there is a month+ backlog in RM discussions needing closing.(non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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Holit massacre → Holit attack – The term "massacre" is loaded and thus WP:POVNAME. That would be ok if there was a "significant majority" of sources that called it that, but there aren't. Of the sources that were quoted for SIGCOV at the article's AfD, most used the word "attack" (emphasis mine):

• The Guardian: "Shachar and Shlomi Matias, who died in the Hamas attack on Holit kibbutz"
• New York Times: "was killed while at home in Kibbutz Holit during the Hamas-led terror attack on southern Israel."
• Al-Jazeera: "Al Jazeera visited Holit, a kibbutz near Gaza which was attacked by Hamas fighters on October 7."
• Politifact: "Vach was explaining the Oct. 7 Hamas attack on Holit kibbutz".
• Haaretz: "The tank operators who came with their tanks actually broke the attack [referring to the attack on Holit]" VR _talk 04:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 05:06, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Death has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Islam has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Israel has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:33, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Palestine has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Terrorism has been notified of this discussion. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:34, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

I’m not against this discussion happening, but I had hoped it could wait until I updated the article using all the resources I’ve found. As I said in the AfD the resources I found there were just used to show initial notability. I have been working on collecting and summarizing resources in my free time for this article for over a week (26 resources vs initial 5). I’ve found the resources I will use but haven’t yet summarized them all. Note that there are several articles covering the same attack, but from different perspectives. I might not use all of them in the final article, but will use most.

If it is necessary that this renaming process take place now, you shouldn’t consider, the AfD resources, but rather those in my User:Ayenaee/sandbox where I’m collecting the resources. Where the table says "SUMMARY" it means I still need to to do one. You’ll have to look at individual articles for this purpose, because I don’t note whether an attack is called a massacre or not. I also start toning done some of the more emotional wording in the source (although there is some left which I remove in writing the article). I’ve become used to replacing terrorist in resources with militant in my summaries and similarly with massacre to attack.

I still think it would be better to focus on Nir Yitzhak where the update is complete, in terms of this question, and withdraw this one till the actual update is complete. But that’s VR’s choice. This one will definitely need relisting if it continues, because I expect it will take at least another 5-7 days to complete. It’s attack section is simpler than Nir Yitzhak, but it’s C&H section is more complicated. Ayenaee (talk) 07:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support If the sources are tending to call this an attack, then Holit massacre is a POV name. If this changes, we can revisit it down the trach. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:12, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support "attack" as NPOV. Sammy D III (talk) 13:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
• Attack on Holit kibbutz? None of the above-quoted sources use "Holit attack", which lacks clarity about whether Holit was attacking or being attacked. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose.

TLDR

The arguments in favor of renaming confuse:

• What happened: Attacks by Hamas and it allies on various Israeli targets (in all parts of the 7 October event), with
• How it happened:

1. Attacks on military targets with civilian "collateral damage", or
2. Targeted killing of unresisting defenseless civilians with killing of armed defenders a necessary means to that end.

In English (1) is referred to as an "attack" (or perhaps military attack, battle, combat etc) and (2) as a "massacre". Being the more generic word, attack can refer to either generically but can’t describe the elements of a massacre. In this usage neither word is POV and each should be used as appropriate descriptively. The deaths in this case were overwhelmingly of the "massacre" pattern, so it is descriptively incorrect to not indicate this in the title. Counting of words is confounded for various reasons (not least of which is that, as above, "attack" is the more generic word so will be used more often) and should not be used to change the description of how the attacks happened.

Descriptive argument

I have just finished the table of sources I will use to update the article (see section below). I base my arguments on that, but since no one wants to wait for the update before this discussion, you will either have to verify my statements by reviewing my summaries of the sources, or AGF that I am being objective in my argument. As evidence my objectivity and GF I offer my !vote on the Nir Yitzhak move debate where I agree that the name should change because none of the elements of a massacre occurred in that attack. For this attack, however:

• The attack (generic meaning) section, when written, will show that this attack was different from that on Nir Yitzhak in that there was only minimal resistance from the kibbutz residents. In terms of the sources most residents hid in their safe rooms , and were defenseless and unable to resist if the rooms were breached.
• The general pattern of the attack (what was done) followed that of a massacre (how it was done). Militants went from house to house shooting at the metal shutters of saferooms to determine from screams from within whether they were occupied. They then attempted to breach occupied saferooms and where successful shot the unresisting defenseless occupants. In several cases they returned to houses and set them alight to force the occupants to exit so they could be shot.
• Of the 15 deaths:

• 11 of the 12 Israeli or duel citizenship deaths were caused by militants breaching safe rooms, sometimes with grenades, and shooting the unresisting defenseless residents they found inside (the other death was a safety team member who seemed to be fighting the militants alone)
• 1 of 3 foreign workers killed was killed in a massacre situation, it is not reported how the other 2 were killed

• Of the 8 reported injuries:

• 2 of them arose from breaches of saferooms and killing of the unresisting defenseless residents inside, with 2 injured in these shootings.
• 4 of them arose from an attempted but unsuccessful breach of a saferoom with a grenade where shrapnel entered under the door and injured 3 elderly people and a child, out of the 4 adults and 4 children in the room
• 2 other injuries didn’t fit the massacre pattern

Therefore in this attack (what happened), the method (how it happened) in just under 80% of the reported killings and injuries to civilians, was factually and descriptively a premeditated massacre of defenseless unresisting people. To not use the word massacre to describe this is an inappropriate twisting of the sources. The word massacre here is being used purely descriptively.

Numerical argument

• I don’t believe the numerical argument "wins" over the descriptive one, but since some do, to assist the discussion, I have done the following analysis of all The sources:

• Attack/Massacre = 5.6x (184 attack ÷ 33 massacre)
• Terrorist/Militant = 11.3x (135 terrorist ÷ 12 militant)

• So numerically attack "wins". But also numerically "terrorist" "wins" so why a guideline recommending the use of "militant"?

• "Terrorist" and "Freedom Fighter" are ideologically POV words referring to the same group of people with subjective biases in the way each is applied. Militant provides a more neutral word to bridge this bias.
• Attack and massacre are not ideologically opposite POV words if based on an objective factual description:

• Attack can mean the general thing Hamas did in every case: attacked a target
• Attack can also mean how a belligerent attacks a target as in a military attack
• Massacre while containing the basic elements of an attack, also includes the objectively determined method of attack which is killing unarmed unresisting people
• Attack and massacre may have different subjective emotional values attached, but this shouldn’t disallow their use when they objectively describe how an event occurred

• Why massacre occurs less frequently in sources

• Once "massacre" is used once in reference to a particular attack, or in an article about a particular attack where the entire 7 October event is referred to as a massacre, it is established that the method of attack was massacre, and the more general nature of what happened (rather than how it happened) can then be referenced by the word attack.
• Copy editing would require that massacre used less than the more general attack
• Some editorial policy may not allow the use of "massacre" for various reasons which may be ideological or not. if ideologically based Wikipedia shouldn’t be following it

The takeaway here is that there are many reasons why attack may used more than massacre. But to use the numerical argument to misname what is objectively a massacre is not encyclopedic. Ayenaee (talk) 21:01, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

The takeaway here would be that you are making an argument for what is essentially a personal preference, while tacitly acknowledging WP:COMMONNAME, the evidence in support of the common name and the WP:NPOV aspects of the present name, which must be considered in terms of the prevailing policy at WP:AT. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I’m saddened that I’m not granted AGF even in the form in which I present my !vote. To clarify: it was not my intention to argue a personal preference or to tacitly acknowledge anything. My conclusions are based on a thorough review of resources which I’ve provided. I argue in GF and openly that:

1. Whatever the article is named, what happened at this event is clearly what would in English be described as a massacre by any objective standard, supported by references.
2. COMMONNAME should not be blindly applied for the reasons I state.

No one has to agree with me, but neither should they mischaracterise what I’ve said. The closer can decide on how convincing or otherwise my arguments are. Ayenaee (talk) 04:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I have not assumed that you have acted in bad faith. What I have done is to observe that your preference is not supported by what the articles (overall) are calling it and that your argument is contrary to the prevailing policy (WP:AT and WP:NPOV) at several points. Consequently, your view should be largely discounted per WP:RMCI. Cinderella157 (talk) 04:48, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. For all the reasons Ayenaee stated above. The fact is that Hamas militants infiltrated the unprotected Kibbutz, went from house to house, murdered 15 of the kibbutz's residents in cold blood, among them women, children and elderly, and wounded many more. In common English this event is definitely a massacre. GidiD (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

  You do realize that Ayenaee above stated that English sources use the word attack more commonly than massacre? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose per Ayenaee. --Yorkporter (talk) 21:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per sourcing—particularly that mentioned above—there is good evidence that Wikipedia can neutrally state that the event was a massacre. Further, it seems readily known as a massacre, to a degree (in English) that I'd say crosses the threshold for COMMONNAME. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  Can you provide evidence that massacre is COMMONNAME? So far, all evidence, including that by Ayenaee, is that "attack" is more commonly used than "massacre". VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 08:26, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• oppose per Ayenaee, the methodology is well-explained by him(/her?). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:28, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

  Another thing: every massacre is an attack, but the most notable part of this attack is the massacre. Even if we can't determine the goal of the terrorists (whether it was to slaughter, kidnap, occupy or something else) we should choose the definition that emphasizes the most notable feature of this topic (just like it would be stupic to rename Bashamem inscription to "Bashamem stele base", even though it was indeed a base for stele dedicated to Ba(al)shamem – because the most notable feature of this artefact is the dedication inscription, and not it being more generaly an inscribed base dedicated to Ba(al)shamem). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support Insufficient sourcing to apply massacre label so POVname.Selfstudier (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Since it has been shown that the WP:COMMONNAME in sources is to call this an attack rather than a massacre, that's absolutely what we should be calling it. The opposes above seem to be saying we should reject that commonly used descriptor based on detailed analysis of what happened in the event. Obviously there are some sources calling it a massacre, so this approach isn't entirely original research, but in the context of choosing a name for the article, such analysis is largely irrelevant and should be rejected. That's not at all to play down the severity of the tragedy which occurred, but the central point is that if sources predominantly call it an attack, then so should we.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:33, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support: as has been pointed out several times since November-ish, sources simply don't refer to this as a massacre, but as an attack. Thus the current titled is loaded and not NPOV. Dylanvt (talk) 06:32, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per Amakuru, it isnt even close on common name, attack is exponentially more commonly used than massacre, and thats according to the data from somebody who opposes tht move. If it were close then we could look at things and analyze, but it isnt close so this is an obvious support. nableezy - 17:06, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Support: The clear majoritarian language for this event in the sources aligns with the proposed move. The arguments against it appear to rely more on independent reasoning over the nature of the event, not the sourcing. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:04, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support. Opposition here is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how titles are chosen on WP. When we use descriptive titles we still rely on usage in RS. In this case the only question to address is which of the two reflects usage in RS better. Whether massacre is a more accurate description than attack is irrelevant. For better or worse, the undeniable massacre at Holit is almost universally referred to as an attack in RS. We simply follow usage in RS. —В²C ☎ 20:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

close challenge

Hi FOARP, thank you for your effort on this close and your compliment. But with all due respect I appeal to you to reverse your decision and let an admin close, even if that takes some, it’s important enough to wait. The outcome of this close is difficult not only because it’s a CTOP, but because it has implications for all articles about warlike action related to unarmed citizens (existing and future). So although I respect your thinking, I would like the close to be by an admin, making the unassailable interpretation of COMMON official having considered these implications, if that’s the outcome. I’ll put this on your talk page as well, I just want my appeal to be here for other participants to see. Thanks again. Ayenaee (talk) 16:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

It’s not true that the decision here has implications for other titles. In each case we reflect usage in RS when referring to each topic. Whether it’s attack, massacre or anything else depends entirely on usage in RS. Period. —В²C ☎ 20:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

+1 Selfstudier (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I'd just like to state for posterity that had FOARP not explicitly stated that they were vacating their own review, I would have simply upheld their close the same way I would opine on it if it were challenged at AN: they were within their discretion to make the close, despite not being an admin. It is only them voluntarily agreeing to have someone else make the close, and not just review theirs, that made me write a rationale of my own. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 03:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Resource summaries for updating Holit massacre article

Below are the resources which I will be using to update the article as per my AfD pledge:

• The summaries are mine. Although I do tone down some of emotion while I’m summarising, that is not my main aim, so the summaries aren’t completely wikified. I do the wikification as I’m writing the article from the toned down summaries.
• I translated the Hebrew and used the Apple translation service for the Russian

References for Holit article

Title (Source, Date, lang)	Referenced information (editor summary)
Attack
«Мы все тогда немножко умерли». Как три русскоязычные семьи из кибуца Холит пережили резню 7 октября (“We all died a little then.” How three Russian-speaking families from Kibbutz Holit survived the October 7 massacre) (detaly.co.il, 12 December 2023, ru)	Michael Raitzin: Emigrated from Omsk, Russia, Living in Holit for 13 years Heads up criminal investigation unit of the largest Bedouin city in Israel, Rakhat On 7 October he had a day off, but listening to messages from other officers he realized by 7:20 there had been a militant breakthrough but not the scale He wa s getting ready to go assist his colleagues when he was faced by machine gun fire from 20 heavily armed militants wearing bullet proof vests He only had a pistol, so he distracted the militants by firing and made his way to his house When he got home he only told his wife and sons a partial truth he made up saying militants had broken through but were being pushed back by the IDF They sat quietly in the house while he took a defensive position at the window. He decided to reserve his last bullets for himself and his family He remained there until the IDF arrived, when he used his local knowledge to help them clear the kibbutz of militants Kibbutz residents including Ratzin’s and his family were first evacuated to Kibbutz Gvulot which was unharmed. They were then moved to Kibbutz Ein Gedi near the Dead See which had housed Holit refugees after earlier,trouble on the Gaza border Raitzon didn’t accompany them because he had to be at work at 8:00 the morning after the attack. The chief of police in Rakhat was killed, and Raitzin's deputy was injured, it took them severaldays to clear the Rakhat of militants. Temprary housing had to be found for the police near Rakhat which was still being used two months later. Anat Dymshits: Husband what an overseas conference on 7 October Her mother, father and grandmother where visiting her, and they and her 4 children were all sheltering in their safe room Miltants tried to get in by throwing a granade at the door The militants didn’t breach the door but the shrapnel went under the door Anat's father, Yosef Rozhansky (67) lost his leg, and her Mother Alla and youngest daughters, Ofek, were seriously injured, her grandmother was less injured but still hospitalized, the rest of the family only had minor injuries The three elderly family members were from the city of Kiryat Shmona which has been evacuated so they can’t returm there Those family members not still hospitalized are living at Kibbutz Be'erot Yitzchak Daniel Kukushkin: Gardener Daniel Kukushkin lived in his own house by himself, while his mother lived by herself on the other side of the kibbutz. He was outside when the attack started but was able to get to his safe room despite wild shots passing close to him He has a cat which was lost on the day of the attack but found in mid-November He first hoped for help from the army but after several neighbors houses were broken into he expected to die and prepared messages for his loved ones He heard IDF tanks arriving at 17:00 At 7:30 he was asked by the IDF to help identify bodies because he had until recently worked as a paramedic His worst experience was seeing cars with dead civilians when he was evacuated He can still hear his neighbors screams, and believes that "We all died a little then." Desire to return to the kibbutz None of the residents are certain whether they want to return to the kibbutz, children in particular have expressed fear of going back Some would prefer to remain at the kibbutzim which are temporarily accommodating which are not near Gaza Several volunteers are looking after farm animals and other essential work
Раненный террористами шахматист организовал кружок прямо в больнице (A chess player wounded by terrorists organized a club right in the hospital) (detaly.co.il, 4 November 2023, ru)	Yosef Rozhansky (67) is a chess master who emigrated to Israel from Pskov, Russia He, his wife, and mother where visiting his daughter Anat Dymshitz and 4 grandchildren during the period of the attack The whole family, 8 people and a dog, sheltered in Anat’s safe room Yosef saw that several houses had been set alight, and one neigbour texted that she was suffocating Anat and three other unarmed residents managed to save the woman by pulling her out of the a window of her house, and returned safely to her own house, while her parents managed to wet the surrounding are to stop the fire from spreading Militants tried to breach their safe room by throwing a grenade at the door, do door was not breached but shrapnel from under the door entered and severely injured the three elderly people and the youngest child Miltants tried to coax them out with promises of safety but the didn’t comply The IDF arrived 5 hours after this incident, it took a while for the IDF to reach them, but they new they were safe Yosef started a small chess club at the hospital he was taken to after starting to recover from his lost leg.
"В тот день у меня внутри что-то умерло". Интервью с выжившими в кибуце Холит (NEWSru, 23 October 2023, ru)	Some overlap with Detaly article, but introduces new facts Daniel Kukushkin: Resident since 2009 84 residents, 14 died Two Nepalese workers died [where is the source that one was Cambodian?] Entered safe room 6:30, left 19:30 Heard gunfire at 6:35 and thereafter shouting in Arabic Took 30 seconds to barricade his front door with furniture, just after which bullets were fired at his house causing glass to break and plaster to fall He turned off lights and air-con and begin to understand the scale of what was happening from the kibbutz text chat Residents where saying there were militants in their houses, that houses were being set on fire, and that they were suffocating Militants shot at the metal shutters of the safe rooms to determine if there were people inside, mainly by the cries of the children, Daniel barely managed to keep quiet when his shutters were shot Daniel heard Arabic being spoken at his neighbors and children screaming, he was unable to raise the neighbors via text. He subsequently found out: A male neighbour was killed A female neighbour who had two children was killed in front of the children, the children and an unrelated female neighbour were then taken às hostage, but the woman managed to get back to the kibbutz the same day Daniel believed he would also be killed and wrote farewell messages to his loved ones He spent 13 hours in the safe room, listening to bullets, grenades and smelling smoke. Of this period he said: "I read [text messages] and said goodbye, read and said goodbye. Something inside me died that day. I think a lot of us did. Because no one thought they would survive. They just went from house to house and shot everyone." The IDF entered the kibbutz during the day but told residents to wait until they came for them, they came for Daniel at 19:30 He saw "mountains" of corpses of Hamas militants He fetched his mother and they evacuated to Kibbutz Gvulot Olga Chagin (Daniel’s mother) Chagin spent the day I’m her safe room which is also her bedroom, she communicated by text with Daniel who uneremphasisedmwhat was happening to not worry her She understood from texts and TV that an attack was happening but not its extent until afterwards, no attempts were made to break into her house After they were evacuated, Olga responded to the request for volunteers and returned to the kibbbutz to work two 5-hour shifts in the barn She considers herself to be back home
הטרגדיה הגדולה של הקיבוץ הקטן: בעקבות מסלול הדמים של המתקפה בחולית (The great tragedy of the small kibbutz: following the bloody trail of the attack in Holit) (Mako, 20 October 2023, he)	General 53 families, 13 deaths The militants continued their door to door killing spree much of the day Sheldag only got control of the kibbutz after midnight Survivors stories Nir and Adam (husband and wife with children) Militants ransacked house and tried to open safe room door but Adam managed to hold it closed against them They remained insafe room for several hours, with the children understanding that they had to remain silemt After the IDF arrival, when the could they grabbed some things and fled Yuval and Ilan Rabivo (husband and wife with children) The children were terrified, Ilan had a knife to defend them and told them they’d be ok Yuval heard militants were looking to kill men first so he went and stood outside hopping they would kill him but leave his family alone Naama and Gideon Kovani (husband and wife with children) Waited in heir safe room with a pistol, and their child in the corner behind blankets When they heard that their next door neighbour had been killed and her daughter was hiding in a closet, Naama encouraged Gideon to save the child, which he managed to do Rotem Mathias He heard shattering glass, knocking on the door and then a boom his mother lying on top of him was shot and stopped moving, he lay under her for half an hour The last thing he told them was that he loved them, and they told him he would be fine He ended the the interview crying but wanted it known that his parents killers has laughed after they murdered them He wants to return to the kibbutz when he is 18 to honor his parents memory Shimon Azoulai Had a weapon and fought militants where he could without hope of having much impact Shir Azoulai Miltants entered her house twice but didn’t attempt to breach the safe room She went out and saved a neighbour who was suffocating because of fire lit by militants to chase residents out Despite almost total destruction she wants to return because it is her house
All-woman Israeli Tank Crews Killed 50 Terrorists Over 17 Hours of Combat on October 7 (Haaretz, 26 October 2023, en)	Paran Brigade woman tank operators helped clear Kibbutz Holit of dozens of Hamas militants IDF said they were first Western armored woman soldiers to go into battle Three tanks ordered to leave Egyptian border position and killed 50 militants in 17 hours On the way to Holit one of the tanks ran over two militants On arrival they broke down the kibbutz gate They took fire from two groups of militants who they either killed or chased away, clearing the kibbutz of militants
Israel-Palestine war: Devastation in Israel's kibbutz Holit (WION News, 13 October 2023, en)	Walkthrough showing three burnt out houses and walls with bullet holes
Israeli volunteers clean up kibbutz attacked by Hamas fighters on October 7 (Al Jazeera, 27 October 2023, en)	2km from Gaza border, 200 residents Residents woke up to air raid sirens, followed by Hamas militants storming their houses Zaka trained volunteer paramedics cleaned the kibbutz weeks later One volunteer tried to pick up a burnt body from a burnt out car but it crumbled to pieces Al Jazeera visited the kibbutz as part Israel government press office tour arranged for journalist, captions to pictures they took describe: A burnt mattress outside a burnt home, evidence that many residents and their children were asleep when the militants attacked in the early morning A member of Zaka walking past a destroyed house A member of Zaka cleaning a child’s room Evidence that residents were surprised by the attack, either still sleeping or eating breakfast Foremsic teams cleaning walls after analyzing a scene A fragment of what might be a grenade Zaka volunteers reporting that granades had been thrown into houses, shot people, blown up vehicles as residents tried to flee Many houses were burnt Personal effects strewn across porches The tour ended after reports of incoming rockets
Killed / Injured / Captive
פורסמו שמותיהם של נרצחי קיבוץ חולית (Names of murdered Kibbutz Holit members published) (Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he)	Killed: ליז אלחרר (Liz Elharar) ומאיר אלחרר (Meir Elharar) חיים כצמן (Hayim Katsman) שחר מתיאס (Shahar "Deborah" Mathias) ושלומי מתיאס (Shlomi Mathias) רולאן סולטן (Rolan Sultan) ורונית סולטן (Ronit Sultan) לילי קייסמן (Lily Keisman) משה רידלר (Moshe Ridler) פטרו בוסקו (Petro Bosco) תהילה קטאבי (Tehila Katabi) Two unnamed foreign workers Missing: אבי קורין (Avi Korin) ועדי קפלון (Adi Kaplon)
Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War (Haaretz, 19 October 2023, en)	Killed at Holit: Liz Elharar Meir Elharar Sgt. First Class (res.) Hayim Yeshurun Katsman, 32 Shahar Matthias, 47 Shlomi Matthias Roland Sultan, 68 Ronit Sultan, 56 Lily Keizman Moshe Ridler, 91 Petro Bosco, 35, Moldova Foreign worker Tehila Katabi First Sgt. (res.) Abraham Gabriel Korin, 56, Member of the community's emergency team Adi Kaploun-Vital, 33
Mother killed protecting son with body, father killed, son injured but survives
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Mathias) (NYT, 11 October 2023, en)	[Deborah] Shachar Mathias originally from Missouri Died shielding her 16 year old son, Rotem, from bullets with her body Rotem was shot in the stomach, but he survived and managed to hide until help arrived He is recovering in hospital Her father Ilan Troen is a professor Emeritus of Israel Studies at Brandeis University in Massachusetts, and at Bar Ilan University of the Negev Shachar was speaking on the phone to Troen moments before she and her Husband, Shlomi, were shot to death. She said she heard glass breaking, gunshots and Arabic being spoken Troen described his daughter and son-in-law as "idealists" who lived at Kibbuts Holit less than a mile from Gaza, and sent their children to a dual medium Hebrew and Arabic school which they helped found, in the hope that better understanding between Jews and Arabs would change Israel
He listened, helpless, as Hamas closed in on his family: ‘They came to kill’ (Washington Post, 10 October 2023, en)	After Troen heard his daughter (50) just before her and her husband’s (49) death he heard from his grandson Rotem His parents had died protecting him and he was injured including a gunshot wound to his belly Militants were still searching the kibbutz His sisters 19 and 21 living in another part of the kibbutz were safe Troen and his extended family guided Rotem via text message for the next 12 hours, group included included physicians and a trauma specialist: Encouraging him about how courageous he was How to care for his wounds To stay still and silent under a blanket Kept him calm Guided the IDF to him at 20:00 that evening They reunited with him at the Seroka Medical Centre in Beersheba, where Troen slept near him overnight Troen compared the attacks to pogroms, organized massacres of Jews over the centuries He said perpetrators were well prepared and came to kill, returning several times At one point in the afternoon the militants started burning houses to smoke out and kill any remaining residents, Rotem was advised to stay where he was, he was covered in soot when rescued Rotem is recovering Funeral is to be held once parents‘ bodies identified Troen said: “This is a family that was committed to peace.”
‘My parents sacrificed their lives for me’: agony of 16-year-old survivor of Hamas attack (The Guardian, 14 October 2023, en)	At 8.01 Rotem lay under a quilt soaked with his mother’s blood and texted his family "Mum and Dad are dead. Sorry. Call help." She had protected her son from militant bullets with her body. As Hamas militants broke into there safe room Shacher Mathias ordered her son to get under a thick blanket and lay on top of him He heard two explosions which he thought were grenades used to break into the safe room and then gunshots He heard his father scream, and felt his mother twitch on on top of him, then silence except for the gunmen’s laughter. “They laughed at their murders. They killed my parents and laughed” One of the bullets went through his mother into his stomach but not deeply enough to kill because it’s force was spent going through his mother Help only arrived 7 hours later, so he spent most of the day injured, terrified and alone except for the bodies of his parents 15 minutes after the killing he tweeted “I love you all just in case. Mum’s body is on me" and then soon after “I am going to pass out, no air, bombs.” For an hour after the killing Rotem remain under his mother’s body struggling to breath from smoke. He then pushed her off and found shelter in a laundry room, when the militants returned he again hid under bloody cover. His sisters, Shir, 21, and Shakked, 19 were also on the kibbutz hiding in their own safe rooms, but because of intermittent signal he was unsure they were alive Using text family members provided him with advice on how to treat his injury, to stay quiet and encouraged him until he was saved by the IDF at 4:30 Rotem has recovered physically although he is still in physical pain, but is struggling psychologically: Tormented by the thought of Hamas sleeper cells in Israel Frightened by loud sounds which sound like gunshots to him Difficulty speaking some He and his sisters are receiving therapy: He considered death by suicide, but decided against it because this would dishonor his parents sacrifice for him He hopes to return to and work on the kibbutz when he is older to honor his parents Shachar’s brother recounted how there great-grandmother is also known to have shielded her child (their grandmother) with her body in 1919 in what now the Ukraine by pushing her under the bed and hiding her as she was killed Her brother is unable to reconcile the core principles of peace and reconciliation with their Arab neighbors and friends by which his sister and brother-in-law lived and the manner of their deaths. The brother compared the killing to a program and called for a fierce campaign against Hamas. “We don’t want anyone else harmed, but God you have to defend yourself. You can’t let this go.”
Man killed protects woman friend with body - friend captured, woman neighbor killed in front of children - children captured, woman friend takes children and escapes
What We Know About the Americans Missing or Killed in the Attack on Israel (Katsman) (NYT, 11 October 2023, en)	Hayim Katsman Was originally thought to have been abducted but was later found dead in his house He was a peace activist who studied "conservative trends and radicalism within the Zionist religious community", and worked as a D.J. Playing Arabic music He recently earned a PhD from the University of Washington in Seattle with a dissertation titled "Religious nationalism in Israel/Palestine" He was born in Israel but acquired dual US citizenship
He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives (Forward.com, 12 October 2023, en)<ref="saved3">"He was a peace activist with a PhD. In dying, Hayim Katsman saved 3 other lives". Forward.com. 12 October 2023. Retrieved 4 January 2024.</ref>	Duel American-Israeli citizenship, recently received PhD from University of Washington On kibbutz he worked as a gardener, a mechanic and a peace activist He and his neigbour Avital Aladjem were hiding in a a closet when he was shot dead, his body protected her from being shot absorbing all then shots Aladjem was then taken captive with 4 year and 4.5 month old children from a next door neighbour who had been killed, Aladjem said at some point in the March she and the children were abandoned and she managed to go back to the kibbutz with them Aladjem visited Katsman’s mother to tell her of his bravery Katsman’s mother, and his sibling Noy who is also a peace activist, both said Katsman would not want his death to be used to justify retribution against Palestinians. "They always tell us if we’re going to kill enough Palestinians, it’s going to be better for us,” Noy told CNN. “But of course it never brings us peace and never brings us better lives. It just brings more and more terror, and more and more people killed like my brother. I don’t want anything to happen to people in Gaza like it happened to my brother — and I’m sure he wouldn’t want that either. That’s my call to my government: Stop killing innocent people. That’s not the way to bring us peace and security.” Their mother agreed that Katsman “wouldn’t want innocent people to be killed."
‘Do not use our pain to bring death’: plea to Israel from peace activists’ grieving families (The Guardian, 19 October 2023, en)	During Katzman’s funeral his sibling Noy’s Katsman expressed their and their brother’s peace activist beliefs by stating in their eulogy that “I have no doubt that even in the face of Hamas people that murdered him ... he would still speak out against the killing and violence of innocent people.”, this received angry responses from most funeral attendees, which is inappropriate at a Jewish funeral where bereaved family are treated with respect despite emotional outbursts because of their pain, a few of their brothers friends thanked the representing him as he would have wanted to be represented The Katsman siblings were, and Noy is, leftest peace activists who strongly believe Israel can’t fight its way to a peace Noy did 20 interview about the eulogy but not one from Israeli media [but there is a cultural issue for respect for the bereaved as well] Avner Gvaryahu, the executive director of Breaking the Silence (of which Noy is a member) said that all human rights groups have members who were killed, injured, kidnapped and traumatized during the attacks. Hayim was one of the few ex-IDF soldiers who testified for Breaking the silence, which is banned from schools and vilified by the government for its human rights work. Noy is calling for a political solution for the Gaza-Israel war, which is not a popular stance in Israel, he has received some message of condolence and respect for his position from Israeli’s and people who say they’re in Gaza, one wrote " I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am for what happened to your brother, and I want to thank you a lot for not wanting us dead like everyone else,” wrote one."
My Brother Was Slaughtered on October 7. I Know He Would Be Calling for a Cease-Fire. (The Nation, 9 November 2023, en)	Article written by Noy Katsman, Hayim's sibling calling for a ceasefire and stop to killing of innocents as they are certain their brother would Hayim was a dual American-Israeli citizen, one of 30 Americans killed in the overall Hamas attack According to Noy, Hayim was "slaughtered" in a hail of bullets protecting his neighbour with his body, but he would not have wanted innocent people to die in revenge for his death Hayim’s peace activism was show by: By being a teacher, advocate, and trusted friend to the Palestinian farming communities of the South Hebron hills, Volunteering to defuse tensions between Palestinians and Jewish settlers before they escalated to violence. Volunteering in the gardens of Rahat, a bedouin town, Volunteerimg at Academia for Equality, supporting Palestinian academics in Israel. He was also a DJ of Arabic music, Believed all life was precious and that a peaceful future was possible for everyone Noy describes what their brother’s likely response to the war on Gaza would have been Unable to "stomach the moral stain" of innocent people dying to avenge his death Disagreeing with the moral logic that killing Hamas militants in Gaza with its concomitant innocent live,lost would make,Israel safer, because this had been argued and done before and Israel was not safer Calling for an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and release of hostages New parties on both sides, and the US government, finding a diplomatic solution which would Viv benefit both sides
Loved ones recount horrifying murder of Canadian Adi Vital-Kaploun who was shot by Hamas in front of children (The Globe and Mail, 13 October 2023, en)	Adi Vital-Kaploun family in Ottawa, Canada were informed of her death at the hands of Hamas militants by the IDF Hamas militants broke into her house and shot her in front of her sons Negev (4) and Eschel (4.5 months), and held the sons captive Her body was shoved under Negev’s bed and booby trapped so it would blow up if moved The family were angered by Hamas releasing video of what they said was a mother being released with her sons a couple of days after the attack, the video was of the two sons being saved on the day of the attack by Avital Aledjem who was taken hostage with them but managed according to her to escape with them when left unguarded, the 3 returned to the kibbutz later that day 200 residents Adi and sons were at home alone because husband Amani had gone to another kibbutz for an end of Sukkot party and remained overnight Hamas militants entered Holit on Saturday morning and went house to house shooting people randomly When they reached Adi’s house they thre in a grenade and fired at the foor Adi and her sons hid in a closet At 12:30 she texted her husband not to come back to the kibbutz or try to reach them, saving his life An hour after the attack on Adi’s house they attacked Aladjem’s house killed a fellow resident she was hiding with and presented her with Adi’s sons The 4-year old was shot,in the leg and the baby was later treated for breathing problems Alajem and the children were used as shields as the militants moved from house to house, with "destruction and blood everywhere", the Miltants continuing to set house and vehicles alight Aladjem thought they would be taken to Gaza and they were within sight of residential houses But Negev kept screaming that he didn’t want to go, till the Hamas militant carrying him dropped the boy and told them ‘That’s it! Now you go!’ And entered Gaza without them Aladjem who was carrying the baby collected Negev who had to limp on his injured leg, and they began walking back, the came across other militants and hid behind sand dunes to avoid them, they were eventually found by IDF soldiers who escorted them back to the kibbutz Moshiko Bengiat a friend of Adi’s since childhood and the family spokesperson, said that even when she was considered a hostage he did not want the Israeli government to negotiate with Hamas but rather punish them: “People don’t understand the magnitude of this. This is our 9/11. Except they weren’t killed in an airplane crash, they were murdered one by one. Raped and kidnapped,” he said. “The retaliation we’re expecting is literally the annihilation of the entire strip.”
IDF says Hamas video purporting to show 3 hostages being released is propaganda (Ynet.com, 12 October 2023, en)	Video description by editor (announcer audio not translated) Caption: Hamas releases mother and two children Grainy, blurry, wide-angle video, faces and body features not recognizable except at high level even where not obscured, where this description uses possibly/seems it because the picture is to blurry to state a feature with certainty In background what seems like a fence/wall running parallel to the top of the screen In foreground several military seeming people (gender can’t be determined fully, possibly men by gait) possibly carrying weapons, with faces obscured, are walking off the bottom left corner of the screen In the middle ground what’s seems like a woman, facing away from the camera and away from the people walking off the left corner, dressed in a blue windbreaker with a reddish pink upside down triangular patch on the back, and a white dress, is seen walking towards a child/toddler (possibly a boy) in the center of the screen, she bends down and hugs him and then they are shown walking along the middle of the screen parallel to the top of the screen, towards right hand side, in a different direct from the people in the foreground (approx 135 degree angle) The woman is said to be carrying a baby, but this is not apparent in the video, although a baby could be hidden by the windbreaker There is no communication or acknowledgement between the people walking off the bottom left corner of the screen and the woman Hamas viewpoint Al Jazeera played a video released by Hamas on 11 October 2023 purporting to show Hamas releasing a mother and her two children from Kibbutz Holit Al Jazeera portrayed the video as recent footage of Hamas releasing captives Hamaz said the video showed a mother and her two children being released which showed that they are merciful IDF says IDF said that footage was of several days old taken on the day of the initial attack 7 October 2023 They say the video is of Avital Aledjem in a blue and pink jacket walking to and embracing a child while holding another child, with gunmen seen walking away, apparently near the Gaza border fence Avichay Adraee, the IDF’s Arabic language spokesmen said that the late release of the footage was a propaganda attempt by Hamas to improve its world image after, images were shown worldwide in the preceding days of the atrocities committed by Hamas during their 7 October attacks on Israel Avital Aladjem says On 7 October She was hiding in her safe room with a neighbour communicating with another neighbour, Kaploun-Vital. At 1;30 militants broke in, killed the neighbour she was hiding with, took her captive, and brought her Kaploun-Vital’s 4-year, and 4.5 month old boys, the three of the where then marched through the kibbutz She saw destruction and blood everywhere, houses and cars were being burnt and bullets were flying, the militants kept,telling her to hurry up. When they arrived in Gaza, Aledjem said that she and the children were,left unguarded, at which point she took the opportunity to start walking back, avoiding militants they passed by hiding behind sandunes When they arrived back at the kibbutz, the surviving residents were beginning to evacuate She and the children were evacuated to Kibbutz Gvulot, where the children were reunited with their father What happened to Kaploun-Vital Canadian media reported Kaploun-Vital‘s relatives saying that she had been killed on 7 October in front of her sons She made her father and husband stay away from the kibbutz saving their lives, and convinced the militants to take the children to Aladjem Verifiable facts (all resources in article not just this one) Aladjem was hiding with a neigbour (Katsman) in a closet, he was shot and killed but absorbed the bullets so that she was unhurt, and was taken captive by militants Adi Kaploun-Vital a neighbour of Katsman, was killed in front of her 4-year, and 4.5-month old children who were also taken captive Aladjem did return to the kibbutz later on the day of the attack with the two children If the woman in the video is Aladjem holding the baby and being reunited with the four-year old: The "release" claimed by Hamas and depicted in the video couldn’t have happened on 11/10/23 as claimed by Hamas/Al Jazeera, because Aladjem and the children returned on 7/10/23 Hamas’s claim that a mother and her children we’re released is incorrect because Aladjem is not the mother of the children
Holocaust survivor killed
Holocaust Survivors in Israel Faced Fresh Horror When Hamas Attacked (NYT, 9 November 2023, en)	Moshe Ridler (91) was killed during the attack In c. 1943 when he was 11 Ridler escaped from a concentration camp in Eastern Europe His daughter, Pnina Hendler, said: "My father had his life finished at the hands of vile murderers. That was his end." The fact of Holocaust survivors who escaped to Israel for protection against their suffering, being made do suffer similarly again, made the Israeli shock and anger worse.
Bedouin family kidnapped
Israel-Hamas deal: These are the 8 hostages released on Thursday (Jerusalem Post, 30 November 2023, en)	Bilal and Aisha are 2 of 4 of Ziyadne family who went missing, others were father, Yosef Hamis, and elder brother, Hama It wasn’t certain whether they were captive or missing They were working in the kibbutz cowshed at the time of the attack
Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel (BBC, 22 December 2023, en)	Yosef 53, Hamza 22, Bilal 18, Aisha 16
Freed hostage Bilal Ziyadne: Hamas said they were kidnapping us even though we’re Arab (Times of Israel, 10 December 2023, en)	Bilal Ziyadne (18), his sister (Aisha), older brother and father where kidnapped from Kibbutz Holit He and his sister were freed as part of the hostage exchange, the other brother and father are still being held They are a Bedouin family from Rahat working at Holit Bilal told their abductors that the Family was Arab, but was told that they were still being taken despite that Then family where kept together and provided with enough "normal food" to not be hungry Bilal doesn’t remember what his family spoke about because he was too scared He was mostly unaware of hostages besides his family They didn’t think the war would take as long as it has and prayed to be freed He said his family were each given a mattress, pillow, and blanket for sleeping Some Israeli hostages reported sleeping on the ground, and not being given sufficient food to survive Bilal was frightened by Israeli air strikes but not of Hamas He is concerned for those who remain captive because he knows what they’re experiencing
Thai employee injured
Traumatized Thai farmers recount horror of Hamas massacre as families wait for news of loved ones held hostage (Ynet.com, 30 October 2023, he)	withawat Kunwong, 30 year old Thai employee at poultry farm on Kibbutz Holit, has jagged network of scars on neck from an attack which he survived He was live-streaming from the kibbutz when he heard explosions, saw plumes of smoke and rockets passing over Hemtried to hide but was discovered by what he describes as a Palestinian dressed in civilians clothes who attacked him with a knife After fighting the attacker for his life he was left as dead with severe wounds to his throat Other foreign employees found and cared for him He believes he survived because the knife was blunt and broken His wounds still pain him, but his mental pain is worse He returned to Thailand and was reunited with his wife and young daughter
Argentinian-Israeli’s killed
4 Argentine Israelis dead, others missing from kibbutzes after Hamas attack (Ynet.com, 8 October 2023, he)	Ronit Rudman Sultan (55), was killed at Holit with her husband Rolan. She lived in Israel for 35 years after moving from Buenos Aires Abi Korin (56) moved to Israel fro Buenos Aires in the 1980s. He was a member of the kibbutz safety team and died protecting the kibbutz
Israeli children and Hamas soldiers
Hamas post video of ‘Israeli‘ children from Kibbutz Holit (Roya TV, ar,en)	The scare quotes around the word Israeli in the title, and translations, are from Roya TV not the original video. Transcription and description of video Speaker / Scene number English translation / Scene discription Scene 1 Approximately 6 men, with faces obscured, 4 in foreground in military gear with rifles, 2 seated in background seem to be dressed casually without obvious weapons. They are outside on what looks like a covered patio, interacting with one toddler and a baby Scene 2 One man holding baby inside a large room which is in disarray Scene 3 Same venue as Scene 1, an additional man in a tracksuit with a rifle walks into into scene from right and seems to be making a point to someone on the left of the scene. One man has his arm around toddler rubbing his shoulder and talking to him One man holds baby [after cut] One man pushes baby in pram backwards and forwards relatively quickly Scene 4 Close up of man holding toddler and baby, probably in same room as Scene 2(?) Man in Scene 4 speaks [Loudly in Arabic] "Look how merciful our hearts are. We aren’t killing children like you are." Scene 5 Close up of toddler smiling, inside, holding mug, spoken to by man off screen Man off screen and toddler in Scene 5 speak Man: "Drink yalla. [pause] Say Bismilla." (in the name of G-d) Toddler: [Losing smile] "Bismilla." Man: "Drink yalla." Toddler: [drinks from mug]
IDF official X account retweets Hamas video with commentary (X (twitter), 8 October 2023, en)	Israeli Defence Forces @IDF verified X (twitter) account Retweeted video + wording Tweet wording "You can see their injuries, hear their cries and feel them trembling from fear as these children are held hostage in their own homes by Hamas terrorists and their parents lie there dead in the next room. These are the terrorists that we are going to defeat."
Video: Hamas releases footage of children 'held hostage' during attack on Israel (Khaleej Times, 14 October 2023, en)	Hamas released video on their Telegram channel of Israeli children they claim they held hostage during the attack Caption, "Hamas fighters, showing compassion for children in the midst of the Kibbutz 'Holit' battles on day one of Operation Al-Aqsa Flood." Children and state of parents not identified by media IDF shared same video on their official 'X' account indicating that the children were held hostage in their homes, with their parents dead nearby
Aftermath
נשיא המדינה ורעייתו נפגשו עם ילדי קיבוץ חולית המטופלים בשיטת ״חיבוקי״ שפותח על ידי עמותת ׳תלם׳ (The President of the State and his wife met with the children of Kibbutz Holit who are being treated with the "hug" method developed by the Telam association) (President of Israel, 20 November 2023, he)

References

Ayenaee (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Removal of sentence from main image caption

Hi Loksmythe, thank you for your edit of the article where you removed the sentence "His family are calling for a cease fire, as they are certain he would" from the main image caption with the edit summary "editorializing". I apply WP:0RR (except for vandalism, BLP etc) which means I use BD[R] rather than WP:BRD. So I don’t revert, go straight to discussion, and then only revert if there’s consensus. So this is the “D” of BDR.

• Looking at the sentence you removed again, I do think it’s not well written and clunky, and if it’s decided to include it again, I’d rewrite it.
• But I can’t see how it’s editorialising. I am updating this article per my pledge at its keep AfD, so the refs aren’t in yet, but their are refs to support both sentences (see section above). I understand it’s not a popular opinion, but it is one Katsman a"h and his family hold. It provides balance to the rest of the article.
• I read WP:Editorial and I don’t think you meant your comment in that sense, because I don’t see that breached? And as I said, the sentences are ref’ed and I haven’t changed their meaning or taken them out of context, so I don’t believe it’s editorialising. Ayenaee (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Naming of the Hamas military wing

Hi SaintPaulOfTarsus, thank you for your edit supplying the correct name of the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade and the linked article which I’ve reviewed. If I may ask some questions for my education. I acknowledge my lack of knowledge of Hamas or it’s allies’ military structure, so I apologize if my questions seem obvious:

• When I’ve seen "Al-Qassam" added in other articles, I’ve added a {cn} tag because I thought that Hamas had other brigades so the involvement of this one needed citation. Can you confirm that this is incorrect and that if resources mention Hamas participation this always means the Al-Quassam Brigade and this can be used without citation, Basically Hamas military = Al-Qassam Brigade?
• You used the full name in the text, but left the infobox as "Al-Qassam Brigade". Would that be the normal usage i.e. mention the full name once, and use the abbreviated name thereafter?
• Since many sources only mention Hamas participation, I assume it’s still necessary for citation if their allies are involved but only citied as such in a few resources?

Thanks again for your help. Ayenaee (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I’ve just noticed that on another article someone change Hamas in the infobox to "Hamas (Nuseirat Battalion)", which indicates my reasoning above is incorrect? I see this battalion is mentioned in the list of battalions in the article you linked. To me this means that Al-Qassam is the general name (like IDF) and wouldn’t require citation, but that if a particular sub-structure is mentioned as being involved then it would require citation? Ayenaee (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@Ayenaee, my highest compliments on your diligent improvements to this article. I'll attempt to address your questions as best as I can.

• In my experience across Wikipedia, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades are generally considered the sole military wing of Hamas. As you've noted, there are other groups known as "brigades," such as the Khan Yunis Brigade or the Northern Gaza Brigade, but the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades are considered the parent organization of such groups. In my opinion, the more specific we can get with this, the better - so if you come across a more specific military unit designation in your research, I encourage you to include it. (cf. Southern Khan Yunis Battalion in Nirim attack and Nir Oz massacre, Beit Lahia Battalion in Netiv HaAsara massacre)
• Generally, I've seen most mentions of "Hamas militants" interpreted as the al-Qassam Brigades without additional citations, much the same way as mentions of "Israeli soldiers" could be reasonably understood to mean the Israel Defense Forces, as you noted in your later reply.
• I can't really speak to the correct usage re: mentioning the full name once and using the abbreviated name after. Come to think of it, most articles I've read have omitted Izz al-Din completely, so maybe removing that from this article is favorable if only for the sake of consistency and clarity.
• If sources only mention Hamas, I would concur that any reference to a sub-unit (like the battalions) or an allied organization (like the PFLP) should be supported by a citation, so that the claim is verifiable.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Based on the geographical patterns I've observed above, I'd speculate that a battalion of the Rafah Brigade is responsible for this massacre, but without any references that's pure original research on my part. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:20, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment. I’ve seen and learnt from your editing of similar but much more complex articles, so thanks for that as well. I would normally write the first instance of IDF in full and linked, followed by use of the abbreviation. I think the same is appropriate here. I agree we should be as precise as possible, so I’ll look for more detail of subunits before using the brigade name. Thanks for your help. Ayenaee (talk) 21:05, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

What is "the safety team"?

The second para of the lead has "Twelve residents including one member of the safety team were killed". "No organized defense" has the line "Avi Korin, the only member of the safety team mentioned". Is it clear what a "safety team" is? Sammy D III (talk) 19:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

It’s should be security team (team of residents on standby too defend the kibbutz). Thanks for spotting this. Do you think it’s necessary to explain the concept? None of the sources do.

I didn't know. I thought it could have been dedicated employees (I forgot the commune nature), maybe a military squad? How many? You may assume the knowledge, I'm just outside eyes. Have a nice one. Sammy D III (talk) 21:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Update completed

I’ve completed the update of the article. Ayenaee (talk) 19:54, 22 January 2024 (UTC)