Talk:Hungarians in Ukraine

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External links modified[edit]

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I have just modified 3 external links on Hungarians in Ukraine. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

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156,000 not 3,156,000[edit]

Need to correct that. 90.73.211.192 (talk) 13:48, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's ridiculous error. Why is this page locked so no one can correct it? Remsunintun (talk) 12:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsunintun: Fixed. You can use an edit request for a faster reply. --Mvqr (talk) 13:03, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that someone did this again. Just a heads up. Thxcloudsfer (talk) 04:37, 26 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Borders[edit]

Hi @Azure94, I see you made edit war in several articles. [1]

After the Treaty of Trianon in 1920 Hungary did not make any military action, it sought to make revision by treaties like the First Vienna Award 18 years later = nonviolent way. [2] That border conflicts were during the negotiations not made by official by Hungarian government or state but by separate individual groups. So the Hungarian state did not use any violant way to achieve the First Vienna Award This was violent way by military action a real war: Hungarian invasion of Carpatho-Ukraine, Slovak–Hungarian War

"The borders were drawn in 1918"

By how and when? Any international law? Academic source please!

World War I ended on 11 November 1918, new borders were decided and signed at Treaty of Trianon in 1920.

For example Russia occupied Ukraine and nobody recognized that area to be part of Russia, also Romania occupied Budapest in 1919 and Romanians do not say Budapest was part of Romania...

"By the end of 1919 Zakarpatia was already de facto part of Czechoslovakia"

I see you did not decide 1918 or 1919... de facto? International law when both party signed in Trianon in 1920. The Paris treaties decided the borders.

Benes also wanted west Hungary to be part of Czecoslovakia to make an ally corridor to the Serbs, do you say west Hungary was also part of Czecoslovakia instantly after 11 November 1918 because Benes wanted this?


OrionNimrod (talk) 15:31, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first borders were drawn and accepted in 1918. Hungary was immediately ordered to evacuate its troops south of the line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_of_Belgrade#Terms Azure94 (talk) 15:42, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Azure94,
"The demarcation line (marked in solid red) under the armistice of Belgrade. Most Hungarian forces were to withdraw north of the line. The dashed and dotted lines represent Czechoslovak and Vix Note demands, respectively."
Armistice and demarcation lines are not state borders but a military thing. As the caption say: Czechoslovak "demands", but we can see it was not a well drawn exact border. Please show me any academic sources when Transcarpathia became officialy recognzed as part of Czechoslovakia. I know: Treaty of Trianon in 1920 and Hungary signed it. How can be Hungarian lands part of Czechoslovakia before Hungary signed it? Do you talk about occupation? OrionNimrod (talk) 15:59, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gonna quote from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Ruthenia
Gregory Žatkovich signing the Declaration of Common Aims at Independence Hall, Philadelphia 10-26-1918.
In July 1918, Rusyn immigrants in the United States had convened and called for complete independence. Failing that, they would try to unite with Galicia and Bukovina; and failing that, they would demand autonomy, though they did not specify under which state. They approached the American government and were told that the only viable option was unification with Czechoslovakia. Their leader, Gregory Zatkovich, then signed the "Philadelphia Agreement" with Czechoslovak President Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk, guaranteeing Rusyn autonomy upon unification with Czechoslovakia on 25 October 1918.
In April 1919, Czechoslovak control on the ground was established, when Czechoslovak Army troops acting in coordination with Royal Romanian Army forces arriving from the east—both acting under French auspices—entered the area.
In May 1919, a Central National Council convened in the United States under Zatkovich and voted unanimously to accept the admission of Carpathian Ruthenia to Czechoslovakia. Back in Ruthenia, on May 8, 1919, a general meeting of representatives from all the previous councils was held, and declared that "The Central Russian National Council... completely endorse the decision of the American Uhro-Rusin Council to unite with the Czech-Slovak nation on the basis of full national autonomy." Azure94 (talk) 16:23, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first section just plans and demands not official recognized borders, even Austria-Hungary did not capitulate on 25 October 1918. Czechoslovak control "In April 1919, Czechoslovak control on the ground was established" So why do you talk about 1918? Now 1919?
"In May 1919, a Central National Council convened in the United States under Zatkovich and voted unanimously to accept the admission of Carpathian Ruthenia to Czechoslovakia." One sided declarations in USA? Admission plan?
"n May 8, 1919, a general meeting of representatives from all the previous councils was held, and declared that "The Central Russian National Counci completely endorse the decision of the American Uhro-Rusin Council to unite with the Czech-Slovak nation on the basis of full national" Again plans? The text cleary say in May 8 1919 Transcarpathia was not yet part of Czecoslovakia.
Hungarian Soviet Republic
On May-June 1919, Hungarian Red Army made a successful campaign in Upper Hungary. The Hungarian red army with a former Monarchy general, Aurel Stromfeld liberated north Hungary from the Czech invaders, but the communist wanted to make a Slovak communist state, so the Hungarian people in the army were disappointed.
You listed plans and demands, final borders were recognized by the Treaty of Trianon when Hungary signed it, because the pray was the territory of Hungary. How can Hungarian territories part of other countries if Hungary did not agree and did not sign a treaty? Do you what is the international law about borders? OrionNimrod (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you unironically use phrases like "Aurel Stromfeld liberated north Hungary from the Czech invaders" tells me you're just another Hungarian ultranationalist and irredentist, and your purpose here is to insert historical revisionism. Azure94 (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Azure94, in the conversations I see you use several times personal attacks, please relax. I do not know what things by me would be irredentist or ultranationalist but my person is not the topic. Also I do not know which edit by me in the article would be "historical revisionism", we provide info and sourced academic contents. Please focus on the article. These articles are about history, if we see the events of after WW1 then Czech troops a violant way invaded Hungary and not Hungarian troops invaded Czech lands, so I do not know how should I call different, or what should I say could you tell me? (Like today Russians invade the Ukraine and Ukrainians make defense operations.) I see you cannot provide academic sources about when Transcarpathia became part of Czechoslovakia, even you do not know any exact day, but by international law we know: the Treaty of Trianon in 1920. Interesting in other talk page you say the First Vienna Award which was signed by Czechoslovakia was not legal, but do you say everything was legally, every Czechoslovak occupation or demands before signing the Treaty of Trianon? Where is the logic in that? It was many more irredentist demands by Serbs, Czechs, Romanians, half of today Hungary was demanded, but demands are not state borders, for example Miskolc was demanded both Czechs and Romanians, or do you want write to the history of Miskolc in today Hungary as part of Czechoslovakia in 1919 because it was part of the Czechoslovak demand? OrionNimrod (talk) 21:16, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Azure94 hi! Personal experience: it's pointless to argue with this gentleman. He is a Hungarian nationalist, single purpose account, that sees anyone who has a different opinion than his own on Hungary and Hungarians as the enemy, and he will debate ad nauseum or harass you on every edit. Best if you ask for 3rd opinion or dispute resolution ASAP, don't let yourself caught in his game. Aristeus01 (talk) 09:53, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aristeus01, Do you think every single claim by Slovak and Romanian nationalist on Hungarian history is very okay (are everything flawless?), and if a Hungarian do not agree on certain historical cases than instantly became Hungarian nationalist? Double standard? I thought Wiki is about academic sources, real contents not about personal harrasments. Please focus on the topic. OrionNimrod (talk) 12:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@OrionNimrod it's not about who is wrong or right, it's about behaviour and how we resolve disagreements. The topic is irrelevant in such case. Aristeus01 (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Aristeus01, then you can see I started this talk page section to make a resolution. While Azure suddenly started to rewrote many topics, not using talk page to make his edits, and he is engaged in agressive edit war, you can see in the articles his state is the last.
Examples among many resolution try:
Talk:Soviet annexation of Transcarpathia#Czecoslovakia
Talk:Soviet annexation of Transcarpathia#This article is about the Soviet annexation of Transcarpathia, nothing more
Talk:Hungarian invasion of Carpatho-Ukraine#Czecoslovak participation.
I started used talk page, like this, asked sources, he is not willing to make compromise even irrevelant things like name the Soviets as Soviets and leave the name of Hungary or Czechoslovakia to jump over this issue. OrionNimrod (talk) 17:26, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've noticed you forgot to mention Talk:First_Vienna_Award#"Non-violent". Is it because you're pointedly ignoring Mesocarp's request to provide sources for your claims? Azure94 (talk) 17:37, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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