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DeFacto has put conflict of interest tags on the BBC News sources in the section about the 2023 suspension. Per WP:RSPBBC BBC News is normally considered to be a reliable source and there doesn't seem to be a huge problem here. ♦IanMacM♦(talk to me)06:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
That 'story', from a rival news outlet that 'also' has a clear COI in this matter, should clearly be discarded too. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:04, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite, I'll AGF and take that as a serious question. The Guardian is a rival news outlet to both BBC News and The Sun. It has a vested interest in discrediting them both, but may choose to back one, BBC News perhaps, in attacking the other. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:00, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
I find it a bit odd that you single out The Guardian for criticism in this particular instance, as that could be applied to using any newspaper/news organisation as a source on anything in a Wikipedia article on a newspaper. GnocchiFan (talk) 10:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite, it is not ridiculous, it is obvious, and needs to be taken into account when the action of a news outlet is being discussed by other news outlets. WP:COISOURCE and WP:BIASED recognise that. A solution may be to contrast content from a cross-section of sources, carefully attributing who is saying what. That way readers will have a chance of cutting through the various editorialisations and loaded language we've seen so far presented as matter of fact. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
This is not about the reliability of BBC News as a source, this is about whether, in this instance, they have a conflict of interests in the subject matter they are being used as a source for.
To me it is clear that as:
one of their employees is the subject of the article
their handling of an alleged complaint relating to one of their employees is part of the story
their reporting of the details of the initial allegations made in The Sun varies significantly from that given in other sources (who also have a COI here)
Disagree. If there is a specific issue with a particular BBC report then bring it here and it can be discussed. But I don't see evidence that it has affected BBC reporting at all (indeed, listening to BBC radio reports at the time they broadcast very regular disclaimers about how the story and the reporting of it were being handled by different arms of the BBC). Black Kite (talk)09:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Disagree as well. There is zero evidence that BBC News has not reported this in any way that stops them being an RS on it. If anything, per the Guardian article, the commentary has been how they've treated it like any other story. The soaraway Sun on the other hand... DeCausa (talk) 09:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
As I said above, it is not a question of whether it is an RS, or not. It is whether they have a COI in this story, and it would seem that they have several. And I'd take anything The Guardian says on this with a pinch of salt, as they too have a COI as a rival of The Sun particularly. They might be supporting BBC News as an ally against The Sun. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
By the same questionable reasoning, the Sun has a CoI when reporting on the BBC. And any news media source has a CoI when reporting on any other. Taken to its 'logical' conclusion, it would be difficult to find uninvolved sources at all... AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:29, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Yes. But if we cannot resist to include the drama, we can contrast what the competing news outlets are saying, taking care to attribute each appropriately. That way readers will see how the journalists craft a story, carefully choosing words, to lead readers to take away the meaning they want them to hear. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:09, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
No, this is a question of whether BBC News is RS for this story. The only relevance of COI is if it compromises the RS status, otherwise, who cares. I've given an RS showing that the BBC has reported the story neutrally. Where are the RS that say otherwise? They're not there. Unless you can provide them this is just you're own WP:OR that there is an issue with BBC News reporting. DeCausa (talk) 20:26, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
It's not OR, it's the literal definition of a COI - the organisation has conflicting or incompatible interests. But as the other news outlets also have one of the COIs, that leaves us with no choice (other than to omit this story) but to provide an attributed cross-section of the available conflicting takes on the story. Or are we just going to stick with one version - the one from our preferred 'RS'? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:05, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
But only you say this. There's no RS complaining about BBC News coverage. Where is the hue and cry about BBC News lack of independence? Seriously, you need to drop this dead end. DeCausa (talk) 21:09, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Do you not think the BBC has a conflict between defending its public image, reporting all it knows about the story, its duty of care to its employees, and possibly other things too? If not, why hasn't it divulged all that it knows and when it became aware of it? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:17, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Chinese wall is a very basic concept. There is never an automatic COI. The RS is very clear that BBC News has reported this independently. Frankly, you're just pushing a personal POV which is becoming disruptive. Either put up some RS support evidencing this supposed BBC News bias or drop this. Do you have RS support for any claim that BBC News reporting has been biased? Yes or no. DeCausa (talk) 21:24, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
How it tries to manage it is irrelevant - it still has it. Other news outlets have their own agendas too, and may choose to support an ally who is also attacking a rival. This sounds like a tangled web of tactical and selective 'reporting'. Per WP:BIASED, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective, so why should we assume that any of the news outlet RSes we use are not biased, especially when reporting on the actions of their rivals? -- DeFacto (talk). 14:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
The problem is that it has several different competing interests involved with this story, its journalistic neutrality, its liability to its employee, its status relative to that of its news outlet rivals, etc. How can we say that none of those were being prioritised ahead of accurate and neutral reporting? -- DeFacto (talk). 10:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
I think it's one of those situations where we have to shrug and report what reliable sources say. What other course of action is there to take? We know so-called "reliable sources" are never 100% reliable anyway, and always have their own biases and interests. Should we avoid using Guardian reports on Rupert Murdoch media, as Murdoch is a rival to the Guardian? Etc. Popcornfud (talk) 10:49, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Per WP:BIASED we need to consider "the level of independence from the topic the source is covering". However, if we choose to use sources with a COI, robust in-text attribution needs to be used to make it clear to users whose opinions are being stated. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:14, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Are BBC News reporters also likely to be the HR department for the BBC when it comes to deciding what should or shouldn't be done with Huw Edwards? No.
Is there anything in the stories that you can evidence as examples of clear bias that goes against the reporting by several other sources that can be explained by Edwards being a BBC employee? No.
At present there is nothing to show that the inclusion of BBC News sources is a COI breach, the reporting itself is factual in nature (not editorial) and typically backed by links to other sources.
So far the only source that was COI is one I removed, which was inclusion of comments by Adam Boulton who is employed as a media commentator by NewsUK (who also own The Sun). Apache287 (talk) 15:09, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
@Black Kite, how is it dealt with there then? Are the opinions weighted by prevalence in the sources, or what? And is there any case there of the public record being misrepresented in the article because an 'RS' has editorialised it that way? -- DeFacto (talk). 21:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
All we know so far is that a) The BBC suspended Edwards and b) the police said that none of it was illegal. There is a gap because we have no detailed comments from the BBC or Edwards on why this brouhaha occurred. Until there is some more detail, it is flailing around to accuse media sources of bias and conflict of interest.--♦IanMacM♦(talk to me)21:20, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
