Talk:Jats/Archive 4

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This page should be a dismbiguation page

Currently, it redirects to Jat People. There is a municipality in Maharashtra, India with the name Jat.

This town is in Sangli district.

asnatu 20:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Created disambig page on Jat

I have created disambig page on Jat. A new page for Jat (Sangli) is also created which may be expanded. --burdak 07:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The Mistake is still going strong

Can someone provide the cultural similarities between the Jaats of Haryana and the Jatts of Punjab of India and Pakistan.There is none.They are different tribes and communities.There are huge factual mistakes in this article.Ajjay (talk) 19:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Ajjay You are wrong and full of Total POV. I totally disagree with you, you wrong. Provide at least 5 reliable academic references for such wild claims e.g. PhDs or Professors instead of just wild pov.--G675 (talk) 13:53, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is a PH.D on Jatt people in any Indian university.Why don't you provide me with the reason why the Jaats and Jatts don't have common surnames, when these surnames are shared by Jatts of Indian and Pakistani Punjab.Also there are many Jatts who live in Haryana also but share nothing common; Surnames or culture, with Jaats of Haryana, which they share with Jatts of Punjabs. Sometimes the knowledge of a native person is more correct than a Professor living thousands of miles away.I know that wiki relies only on references, even though they might be wholly wrong ,that is why i did not make any changes(One can't change the rules).And majority of Jatts or Jaats listed in this article are more or less Rajputs.LOL Ajjay (talk) 15:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Ajjay, please don't spread racist propaganda. There was no "Haryana" until 1966. Haryana was carved out of the state of Punjab in 1966. So, there is no question of Jats of Haryana and Punjab being different. "Jatts", "Jat", "Jaats" are variations of the same word. Jat is a large group, and geographical variations have resulted in some differences in dialects and culture. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, the first Jat kingdoms appeared in Mursān in Uttar Pradesh, Bharatpur in Rājasthān, and Patiāla in Punjab. Obviously, Jats of UP, Rajasthan, Punjab and Haryana (formerly part of Punjab) will have cultural differences. Your others edits on pages clearly (like Sikh Rajputs) prove that you have a racial complex because you want to spread false information about Jats and Rajputs. Wikipedia is not for racist ideologies. Read some good books intead of spreading racist views against Jats and Rajputs. Please dont insult Jats and Rajputs by "LOL" (Laughing out Loud). Take care.SikhiVicky (talk) 12:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not insulting anybody.If some one gets hurt by a fact, then he is obviously caste senstive.As for saying that Haryana was part of Punjab, then even Himachal Pradesh was a part of Punjab.Does that make all Himachalis jats too.And the Princley state of Patiala was never jattts.They are Bhatti Rajputs.If you doubt that, then go and ask the former Cm of Punjab about his origins.As for spreading racial propaganda, it is you my friend.Look at you username.And i don't need to tell you that Jatts are wholly different from Rajputs.Jatts have never been Kings.Why don't you explain the origins of jats, who you claim to be one.Ajjay (talk) 14:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is my last post on this article and i won't be repeating or replying.I don't have forever to waste my time on on single piece of writing , that belongs to a source which is or has become like a forum.

Please read this and add necessary information to the article,afterall all facts must be presented in truthfulness.Ajjay (talk) 15:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Ajjay

Though I agree with you absolutely what you are saying, Jat(Haryana, UP, Rajasthan) & Jatts (Punjab& Pakistani)are totally different which should be mentioned in this article or we should create aseprate article for Punjabi Jatts, but I completely disagree with you when you say that Jatts were never Kings how can anyone forget Sher A Punjab Maharaja Ranjit Singh greatest of them all (he was a Sandhu) and so many of them...if you mentioned about Patiala being Bhatti Rajput which they claim..but you know how it was in ancient India the Kings courts and admistration was dominated by Brahmins and they used to pursued or influence upon Kings & powerfull people for cornation cermonies and annouce them that they belonge to Suryavanshi, Chandrvanshi etc decendents...I hope you get my point. Harrybabbar (talk) 15:56, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Warning! This article is being misused and untruths are are being promoted here once again

On 5th of February I removed several advertising images for books and one each for a movie and a computer game from the article as advertising is not allowed on the Wikipedia. I also indicated that Chaudhari Devi Lal was a previous Deputy Prime Minister of India - not the current one as the caption to his image seems to indicate. (He died in 2001 - so there is no way he can be the current Deputy Prime Minister).

On that very same day (5th Feb.), someone calling themselves "Paper Scholar" User: Paper Scholar reversed both of my changes with the comment "rv pov edits & removed vandalism"! Now, I wrote to this "Paper Scholar" and explained why I removed the advertising material but there has been no reply. He or she has only has one word on their user page ("hello"), and they have, apparently, only made this one edit - so it is logical to assume that "Paper Scholar" may well be a "sockpuppet" for someone else who is not game enough to put their own name to their vandalism.

I often wonder if some people are deliberately trying to make Jats look ridiculous in this article!

I will now restore the edits I made - but if they are tampered with again without good reason I shall have to report this matter to the Administrators. Best wishes to all the good people out there who have been helping make this an accurate and useful article. Cheers. John Hill (talk) 02:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Article Issues

"The Jatt people follow different faiths and are engaged in different professions. They have a discrete and distinct cultural history that can be historically traced back to ancient times.[9][10]"

I agree 100% with the above statement, so maybe now we should have some famous Pakistani Jatts included in this article. There are many people from Chaudary Shujat Hussain (Former Pakistani Prime Minister) to Chaudary Aitizaz Ahsan (Critically Acclaimed Barrister). You should also include famous Jatts from other faiths such as Hinduism and any other faiths that they belong too.

Tna (talk) 22:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This article might need to be split into two

Or at least the "Jatt" populations of Punjab should be split into their own article, the "Jats" of Haryana into their own, and some sort of passing mention of or reference to the Jats of the West (merging into what are now Western Punjabi groups) into their own. Otherwise this will remain a huge clusterf**k of an article.

It works like this:

There is an overlap between "caste" (Kshatriya caste in North/West India and wherever Hinduism and sometimes Buddhism reigned, even briefly) and "ethnicity" or "tribe".

These groups entered South Asia, usually violently, took over, became royalty, established alliances with other ruling clans, and settled down as a tribe of the Kshatriya caste. This repeated many times. Around the turn of the millenium, this happened a lot in quick succession (Indo-Scythians, Indo-Greeks, Bactrians, Parthians, Yuezhi, Tocharians, Turkic Shahis, White Huns, and later repeat invasions after Islam showed up). On TOP of that, existing Indian tribes and clans went WEST, particularly Buddhists (Jats who overlapped back onto Afghanistan at times) and Hindu Brahmins and other Kshatriya tribes (Hindu Shahis in Afghanistan for example, as well as Rajputs who were already sitting there for quite some time). Their descendents all settled down as seperate tribes of a "Kshatriya" caste which became also a sort of "Jatt" caste AND ethnicity. Jatt could refer to the tribes that made up the Kshatriya caste in the Northwestern subcontinent, and later became a colloquial reference to these groups as a seperate ethnicity. Meanwhile, these disparate tribes of varying origins (yet all sharing strong genetic origin links to Central Asian Indo-Europeans who themselves being genetically "coherent" often fought and conquered each other) started to intermarry and distinguish more along "Jatt" and "Non-Jatt" lines rather than Jatt gotra lines (e.g., Gills and Manns stopped considering themselves as Gills and Manns and just Jatts). THAT is when the "Jatt" designation became worth a damn, when these distinct tribes overlapped into larger ethnicities.

This then extended the relationship to Rajputs (often thought to be really early Kshatriya caste tribes from Northwest India who are now descended from very early Central Asian invasions though they should have also had a strong native subcontinent component at first) and other ethnicities. So instead of, for example, Gills and Manns acting as seperate tribes, they were now "Jatts" interacting with other "Rajputs" (after sticking around for a while, the Rajput ruling clans which became tribes, which conglomerated together into an ethnicity), especially when continuing to share royal power in their kingdoms. Several tribes are classified as both Jatt AND Rajput. Gills for instance, claim descent from the same Rajputs (rulers of Mithila kingdom) that the current Nepalese monarchy (well, no longer 'current') did. The overlap didn't get much beyond this until modern times, although now with globalization and the India/Pakistan situation, there is more "conglomeration" going on and the distinction is becoming (on the Pakistani side) Punjabis and non-Punjabis. Rajput/Jatt are treated as the same, intermarriage between the two is common and Arain are now the "next" closest but distinct tribe. This occurs to varying degrees with all the Punjabi populations, and language is an even stronger marker for distinction now.

So the difference between Jatts and Rajputs is TIME. They were born under similar dynamics but Jatts are from around Alexander and later whereas Rajputs are from centuries, if not millenia, before that.

Yes, it really is a clusterf**k.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.166.36 (talk) 15:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Not correct

Yes the majority of Jats live in Haryana and not Punjab. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.128.31 (talk) 01:46, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The majority of Jats do not live in Punjab but in Haryana more than 8 million. The origin of the Jats all over is the same, they have the same family names in every reigion. Example Punia, Man, Garewal et. These names are common amongst the Jats in U.P., haryana, Rajasthan and Punjab. No one can divide these Kshatriyas.

There is considerable difference between the "JATTS" and "JAATS", though they sound similar. The latter are found in Present state of Haryana in India and are not same as Jatts who are Punjabi speaking people found in Punjab of India and Pakistan.Ajjay (talk) 06:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The article needs major re-writing.The Jatts in indian state of punjab and pakistani province of punjab have common surnames,language, culture and traditional attires and games.There is nothing which is shared commonly with jat people of haryana.The jat people of Haryana are as different from Jatts as are the ethnic jat people in afghanistan.Ajjay (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ajjay You are wrong and full of Total POV. I totally disagree with you, you wrong. Provide at least 5 reliable academic references for such wild claims e.g. PhDs or Professors instead of just wild pov.--G675 (talk) 13:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Ajjay is 100% correct. Before modern day Haryana was formed from Punjab, and Hariana a district of Punjab, how ethnically different were Jaats from Jatts then? My own family are from Haryana and I am Sikh, and I see no difference apart from dialect from Punjab Jatt and and Haryanavi Jaat?--Sikh-history (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Dialect is a huge difference. I don't know of any Jatts on the Pakistan side who would go near an ethnic Jat from Haryana for marriage for their children. Except, of course, the Jatts who don't care about that stuff anymore. But those who have preserved this tradition only treat Jatts from Pakistani Punjab (not even those Western Punjabi or Lahnda-speaking people who call themselves Jatts that are on the border with Kashmir, NWFP, etc), Majha, and Malwa as "true" Jatts. I know many whose families were Sikh in the 1800s. Language and culture is an important factor in this distinction from what I have observed. If you aren't speaking Majhi Punjabi, then you might as well be speaking Chinese to these people. In fact, Jatts on the Pakistani side have little problem intermarrying with Rajputs or other Punjabi ethnicities (including Arain despite the fact there has been some historical tension between the two communities but mostly due to politics and the issue of status, wealth, and land) so long as they are from the same region (proper Punjab) and speak Majhi Punjabi (the kind most Punjabis speak today).

So these traditions didn't crop up overnight. I would expect Jatts from Pakistan and Indian Punjab to have even less in common with Haryana Jats as they do with the Western Punjabi people (Multani, Seraiki, Lahndi, Mirpuri-Punjabi, Hindko, etc). They are viewed as completely different people here. Sure, genetically, there are many commonalities between all North Indian groups, but ethnically and culturally they've treated each other as separate for a long time.

Also the idea that the Jats of Afghanistan are distinct from Jatts in Pakistan/India is also not entirely true since some Jatt gotras specifically link themselves to Afghani Jats just as some no doubt link themselves to Haryanavi Jats. For the most part, very few Indo-Scythian or other invasions by steppe nomads came in from Western Afghanistan, but a few did. Especially for the Greco-Scythian/Indo-Greek (the Gill gotra mentions this origin), Bactrian, Parthian descended tribes. The Gill gotra claims relation to the Shahi dynasty of Afghanistan. Which is not out of line at all since Jatt populations do share a small link (perhaps correlating to only a few tribes out of the overall Jatt population?) to Turkic groups and the Shahis were the Turks who were in the region at the time that the Jatts showed up on the subcontinent. And that is just the Muslim link. The other Shahis were Hindu Brahmins! At the same time the Indo-Scythians were showing up, so were many other people, including people from India itself (not just North to South or West to East invasions/migrations). This overall "mixing" indicates a link should be expected in some North Indian populations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.166.36 (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

This page is in need of a clean up.

Someone need to edit this page to check facts and make it more concise. it follows no clear order and has several grammatical errors. its far too long and generally confused. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RPBHANDARI (talk • contribs) 03:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC) I agree. Many statements are unverifiable opinions, e.g. what people eat, and the unnecessary use of a regional word for which a perfectly good English word is available, e.g. saag is spinach. Ash (talk) 10:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The article is 84 KB long. Many sections are full of information. To begin with, this article should be trimmed up by removing unnecessary sections that are already covered in other articles. Then it should be reorganized as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups/Template. utcursch | talk 07:55, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Wow this article is full of nonsensical OR and uncited claims, with many a non-RS. Considering it represents upwards of 35 million people, it should be cleaned up pronto as it is very misleading. Trips (talk) 14:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I've started with the cleanup. To start with, I've trimmed the Origin section. I think the next should be the sections about the history of Jat people. The sections "Jat people in Islamic History", "Ancient Jat people Kingdoms", "Jat republics in Malwa", "Jat people in the pre-Aurangzeb period", "Jat People Kingdoms in Medieval India" can be merged into a single history section. Most of the content in these sections is already present in other articles, and there is no need for unnecessary repetition. utcursch | talk 14:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Continuing with the cleanup, I've merged several sections into a single "History" section. The information that I've removed already appears in several other articles (which also need cleanup). utcursch | talk 15:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Clean-up and consolidation of all articles dealing with Jats is needed urgently. Jats are getting a bad name.

I have noticed that recently there has been a proliferation of articles dealing with Jats, their history, culture, and so on. Much of it is very repetitive and very poorly (if more than amply) referenced with many wild and unproven statements being made.

Also there are claims made on other pages that certain historical people were Jats when these claims are really just claims - they don't provide anything approaching proof. For example, the articles on Yasodharman and his son Shiladitya both say that there is "proof" that they were Jats of the Virk clan. There is no real proof - the "evidence" seems to be solely based on the opiniojns of a couple of scholars on a reference in the Bijayagadh Stone Pillar Inscription that Yasodharman was "the Varika" - but nowhere are we given proof or even any good evidence that "Varika" = "Virk".

Even if it can be shown that Yasodharma was a Virk - there is no proof that he was also a Jat - as is eveidenced by the very confusing statement at the beginning of the poorly-written article on the Virks: "Virk (Hindi: (विर्क), Punjabi: ਵਿਰਕ) is a Jat gotra or clan.(the use of words :jats,rajputs,brahman,khattris,baniyas etc is evolutionary in the sense no strict line were drawn initialy and came up to solve the ethnographic puzzle which india had become after vedic times and (is!! still!!)was more related to the families occupation,and resulted in good level of racial difference as well as mixture,with a kernel of the original people and a infusion of people from the new comers in every caste at various periods in history.)" What sense I can make out of this verbal mess is that the Virks were a group of people of mixed background - and it is impossible to say that they were Jats, Rajputs, Brahmans or whatever.

Anyway - I don't want to get drawn again into interminable silly and ugly arguments with various fanatics who seem to have little regard for the truth and have regularly misrepresented and even directly misquoted a large variety of sources here in the Wikipedia (see the Archives of the Jat people and Indo-Aryan origin of Jats, for just a few of these pointless and frequently dishonest arguments.

Many of these articles should, I believe, be joined together and properly cross-referenced - at the moment there are too many articles and they are very difficult to find and they contain mountains of misleading and false information. And, seriously, with all due respect, does the Wikipedia really need so many separate articles on Jats, with so much duplication?

Among the articles which need to be consider shortening, combining or deleting are the following:

And these are just the easy articles to find - there are many, many more dealing with bits of the same material.

Finally, there are separate articles on all these various subgroups (and probably others) which are all claimed to be Jats:

With all due respect, do we really need so many separate articles on Jats in the Wikipedia? I hope someone can bring some sense and order into this morass of poorly-written material - much of it duplicated time and again, and much of it of very doubtful authenticity. This sort of misuse of the Wikipedia - mainly the result of a few disreputable abusers of this forum - people who time and again have been caught out misrepresenting the truth, will surely just lead to scorn and bring Jat people in general (undeservedly) a very bad name as braggarts and liars and make them a laughing-stock.

Please, editors - put a stop to this nonsense - it has really gone too far and for far too long. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 01:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello John, your dedication to this article is amazing. I am impressed, if you could come to Punjab and be my guest, i would serve you strong homemade country liqueur prepared by my own hands, better than scotch anytime. But dear you have got many facts wrong in this beautifully written article. It is ok, and i am not offended (i am a Jat). Soorma
I agree with Soorma that this Jat people article is a beautifully written article. With the help of many good editors, over the last 12 months, this article has become excellent addition to Wikipedia. Most of the Jat Sub-group information is correct when I have verified with western and Indian academic sources.--James smith2 (talk) 18:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Jats

All the data on Jats is wrong. the majority of Jats live in Haryanma over 8 million. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.153 (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This troll (65.88.88.153) you can see from his talk page (65.88.88.153 talk) he has been warned many times but he still continues to troll. You have been warned many times on your talk page DO NOT troll. Moreoever, stop lieing your IP address is from the U.S. from New York Library and this has been confirmed on your talk page (65.88.88.153 talk). My advise to everyone please do NOT feed this troll or any other trolls that come here.--James smith2 (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Racist Trolls -Admins please do some hard policing against trolls

I agree with Soorma that this Jat people article is a beautifully written article. With the help of many good editors, over the last 12 months, this article has become excellent addition to Wikipedia. Most of the Jat Sub-group information is correct when I have verified with western and Indian academic sources. However, the REAL problem with this article is it attracts a lot of TROLLS who come on here and make accusations that "this wrong and that is wrong" without any references, just their opinion (POV). POV is not allowed on Wikipedia. If someone went on the Jewish people article and said "the holocaust never happened and the scholars who say the holocaust happened are lying" they would be banned on the stop by the administrators. In short, troll racism by trolls on the Jewish people article would not be tolerated. Why is the troll racism against Jat people being tolerated on this article? Why are racist troll attacks on this talk page against Jat people tolerated? In short I want administrators to clamp down hard on troll racism against Jat people. And to all respectable long time wikipedians to follow the GOLDEN RULE when dealing with TROLLS = DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

How to spot a troll

Please do not feed the trolls.
  • Rule 1. A troll will normally come the talk page and say "I think this wrong and that is wrong" WITHOUT references to back up their Opinion. They are mostly Anon ips or newly created troll/vandal accounts.

How should admins deal with trolls:

  • They should say to the troll "where is your references?". Trolls usually just have POV (POV which is not allowed on Wikipedia) and no evidence/references just "I think".
  • "I think" (without references) = POV, this not allowed on Wikipedia. Admins should show this type of behaviour no mercy and block on the spot or give a good hard warning and if the troll/vandal persists then block.
  • To all long time wikipedians - simple Wikipedia rule to deal with trolls = DON'T FEED THE TROLLS.

--James smith2 (talk) 18:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Clarification on what defines a Jat

Since Jats can be of several different faiths, speak several different languages, have many different occupations and share their homeland with non-Jats, I would like to respectfully suggest a clarification on what defines a particular individual as a Jat. Is it essentially family tradition that separates a Jat from a non-Jat? Wfgiuliano (talk) 07:43, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Some writing style improvements

Hello; I don't claim to know anything about this topic, but the writing needs improvement in several ways, and I am going to take a quick pass at it. I have started by tightening up the lead, and moving some information too detailed to belong there into the Origins section.Looie496 (talk) 20:10, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

More work: changed "People" section to "The People" and cleaned up the contents. I didn't originally intend to delete anything, but I ended up deleting the material about American/Canadian politicians, because it is silly. Nobody cares about state senators.Looie496 (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
More: changed "People Demographics" to "Demographics" and cleaned up the contents. I didn't intentionally change any of the information but may have done so inadvertantly, because some of it was very hard to understand. In any case there was obviously a lot of redundancy.Looie496 (talk) 21:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
More: rewrote Military and Politics and moved contents into "The People" section. I removed the list of medals because it is simply boasting and does not belong here.Looie496 (talk) 21:29, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Religious affiliations?

There's a problem here. An unregistered user working from IP 69.108.165.158 changed the table showing religious affiliations from 47% Hindu, 20% Sikh, 33% Islam to 2% Hindu, 85% Sikh, 13% Islam. I don't know which is correct, but no reference was given, and the accompanying graphic still shows the earlier numbers. This needs to be fixed one way or another.Looie496 (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Religion affiliations of Jats as par historian Kalika Ranjan Qanungo: History of the Jats, Delhi 2003. Edited and annotated by Dr Vir Singh is - Hinduism (47%),Sikhism ( 20%) and Islam (33%). This reference is very much cited above the table. Thanks --burdak (talk) 16:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !

In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :)

  • "autogenerated5" :
    • Sir Herbert Risley: ''The People of India''
    • y Horace Arthur Rose, Denzil Ibbetson et al.: ''A Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Provence''

DumZiBoT (talk) 04:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Population and caste(s) of Jats

An unsigned and unreferenced claim has just been made that a "majority" of Jats live in Haryana and that this population = 8 million. Elsewhere in the article it is estimated that in 1988 there were 30 million Jats. If both these population estimates are correct, it is clearly impossible that the majority of Jats live in Haryana.

Furthermore, the claim is made that: "the Jats belong to the Kshatriya caste". Now, I am aware that this is a touchy subject - one on which there has already been much discussion in these pages - so I will leave the matter of which caste or castes Hindu and Sikh Jats belong to, but, as many Jats are Muslim, it is clearly wrong to imply that "[all] Jats belong to the Kshatriya caste". I have, therefore, reversed these edits. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 23:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Jats were never Kshatriyas. They are Sudra according to the formal caste system, but are more generally described as an independent ethnic group/caste by itself. Trips (talk) 08:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
This is a POV statement. How come they are Sudras? Jat as a warrior is Sudra? Jat as a ruler is Sudra? Jat as a farmer is Sudra? Jat as a businessman is Sudra?--burdak (talk) 16:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not a POV statement, not all Sudra castes are servants in actuality, and there are many powerful warrior/peasant castes in India that are not official Kshatriyas, but Sudras officially. To be an official Kshatriya caste like a Rajput, the caste had to be in accordance to Vedic rituals, perform the Upanayanam and wear the sacred thread of the dviga/twiceborn, which the Jats didn't do traditionally, and for many possible reasons. Trips (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When Rajput term had not been coined prior to 7th century, who were kshatriyas? Thanks. burdak (talk) 15:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Good point, it probably has something to do with many non-Vedic cultures being assimilated into Hinduism, some being favoured by the Vedic Brahmin elite and some not, for whatever reason. Its speculative. Heres Britannicas take:

"The Rājputs' origins seem to date from a great breakup of Indian society in northern and northwestern India under the impact of the Hephthalites (White Huns) and associated tribes from the mid-5th century onward. Following the breakup of the Gupta Empire (late 6th century), invading groups were probably integrated within the existing society, with the present pattern of northwestern Indian society being the result. Tribal leaders and nobles were accepted as Kshattriyas, the second order of the Hindus, while their followers entered the fourth (Śūdra, or cultivating) order to form the basis of tribal castes, such as the Jāṭs, the Gūjars, and the Ahīrs."

The majority of Jats were farmers traditionally, and I think Sudra also extends to farming/cultivating communities. Though I have heard of certain Jat clans claiming non-orthodox Nagavanshi Ksatriya lineage.Trips (talk) 06:41, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Jats in Deva Samhita

There is mention of Jats in Deva Samhitā [1] in the form of powerful rulers over vast plains of Central Asia. When Pārvatī asks Shiva about the origin of Jats, their antiquity and characters of Jats, Shiva tells her like this in Sanskrit shloka-15 as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ
सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्‌टा देवकल्‍पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devakalpā dridh-vratāḥ || 15 ||
Meaning - "They are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jats are the prime rulers of the earth."

Shiva explains Parvati about the origin of Jats in Shloka –16 of Deva samhita as under:

श्रृष्टेरादौ महामाये वीर भद्रस्य शक्तित: Shrishterādau mahāmāye Virabhadrasya shaktitaḥ
कन्यानां दक्षस्य गर्भे जाता जट्टा महेश्वरी Kanyānām Dakshasya garbhe jātā jatta maheshwarī. || 16 ||
Meaning – "In the beginning of the universe with the personification of the illusionary powers of Virabhadra and daughter of Daksha's gana's womb originated the caste of Jats."

Pārvatī asks, in the shloka-17 of 'Deva Samhitā' about the origin and exploits of the Jats, whom none else has so far revealed, Shiva tells Parvati that:

गर्व खर्चोत्र विग्राणां देवानां च महेश्वरी Garva kharchotra vigrānam devānām cha maheshwarī
विचित्रं विस्‍मयं सत्‍वं पौराण कै साङ्गीपितं Vichitram vismayam satvam Pauran kai sāngīpitam || 17 ||
Meaning - "The history of origin of Jats is extremely wonderful and their antiquity glorious. The Pundits of history did not record their annals lest it should injure and impair their false pride of the vipras and gods. We describe that realistic history before you."

This description from Deva Samhita was earlier there in this article which has been deleted by somebody. This clearly proves that the Jats are the earliest kshatriyas. The last verse clearly indicates the forces behind not calling Jats as kshatriyas. Many of the Jat clans were here in India in Nagavansha.

Sudras have gegerally not adopted cultivation but worked mostly as landless labours or in other services. As farmers Jats are included in vaishyas and not Sudras. By no criteria they can be included in Sudras.

Regards, burdak (talk) 14:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Jat Regiment logo.png

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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --23:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Removed titles as per Wikipedia Manual of Style

I have just been through the article removing the proliferation of academic titles as per the "Wikipedia Manual of Style" - see: [1]. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 05:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Jat people in Pakistan

Please can knowledgeable Pakistani Jat people expand the Jat people in Pakistan section. Thanks.--Peter johnson4 (talk) 03:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Do the majority of Jats actually live in the Indian State of Haryana? Please stop the edit war!

Someone keeps adding the claim that "The majority of Jats live in the Indian State of Haryana", and each time it is removed. This is very boring indeed, and a waste of time for all concerned. If it can be verified from a reliable source would the anonymous editor please give a proper reference that it is true - if not would s/he please stop making unverified claims. Thank you, John Hill (talk) 11:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Given the wide range of IPs inserting that information, and given the level of discussion on the subject (none that I can see), I've semi-protected the article for 1 month. If there is evidence that the claim is accurate (and it doesn't seem that unreasonable, if there's data), then provide sources. If not, then editors will need to stop adding it to the article. Thanks, UltraExactZZ Claims ~ Evidence 15:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

JAT ARE FROM CHANDRAVANSHI'S DHANGAR-SHEPHEREDS

Hi Dear All,

It is confirmed that we belongs to Chandravanshi's and Chandel are a part of Chandravansham. Also I would like to add more informations here that Chandravanshi's are known as Gwala/Gadaria/Shephereds. Because Lord Krishna was the shephereds. And we are all knwon as Gwala/Shephereds/Ahirs and very commonly known as Dhangars / Neekhars.

Earlier peoples known and recognised by their linage like Suryavanshi's, Chandravanshi's, Agnivanshi's but later on they adopted the name as Rajputs.

Originally we are SHEPHEREDS / GWALA known as (Chandravanshi' or Somavanshi's and in some part of country knwon as (Yaduvanshi's a part of Chandravanshi's). As regards to Gotra's - Chandel is a main gotra and again it is further divied into sub gotras e.g. Chandiya Chandel, Rahiya Chandel, Guiya Chandel, Mankiwale Chandel, Basedewale Chandel and Chandrayan.

A large part of Chandels are in PAL COMMUNITY which is known as PAL KSHATRIYA / PAL SHEPHEREDS.

We all have to project ourselves as CHANDRAVANSHI'S ...

MAIN STARS OF CHANDRAVANSHI'S OR GWALA-SHEPHEREDS ;

1) SHEPHERED SAMRAT - BHARAT 2) " " - LORD KRISHNA 2) " " - MAHARAJA YASHWANT RAO HOLKAR 3) " " - DEVI AHILYA BAI HOLKAR 4) " " - POET KALIDAS 5) " " - SANT KANAKDAS 6) " " - CHANDRAGUPT MOURYA 7) " " - SAMRAT ASHOK

Many more stars in Chandravansham. For more detail see the wikipedia.org (DHANGAR COLOUM) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lakhmi (talk • contribs) 04:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for reversing some recent changes

I have just reversed some recent changes in the "religion" section - not because I think what was there before was all that well written, but because much of what was there was replaced by a very poorly written section by Mr. Burdak ineptly trying to push his discredited Aryan agenda once again (and, this was also followed by someone's childish vandalism). Mr. Burdak had wiped out quite a long discussion and replaced it with the following: "A Jat is Jat with Jat characteristics, irrespective of the religion that had to change from time to time. The Jats being of Aryan stock, in the beginning professed Aryan faith." To this was added a referenced short statement to Jats early on taking up Buddhism - a subject dealt with further on in the article and, therefore, unnecessarily repetitious. It is sad to see Mr. Burdak at work once again mangling and distorting this important Wikipedia article - I hope other readers will also keep an eye out for such edits by him and his Aryan supremacist colleagues. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 01:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

This is wrong

Mr John Hill you seem to have personal bias and not very much interested in improving the article. I have clearly explained step by step development of the faith of the Jats in various religions. It is supported by references. Do not revert till it is well discussed. burdak (talk) 04:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Reply to Mr. Burdak

What on earth could you have possibly meant when you inserted the following sentences: "A Jat is Jat with Jat characteristics, irrespective of the religion that had to change from time to time. The Jats being of Aryan stock, in the beginning professed Aryan faith."?

This is totally meaningless. How would one define "Jat characteristics"? What does "A Jat is Jat with Jat characteristics" supposed to imply? (It sounds like you mean some kind of racial definition - but it is totally unclear). Also, what do you mean by "of Aryan stock"? Is there any such thing accepted by scholars and, if so, what percentage of your so-called "Aryan stock" would a Jat have to have to be able to call themselves a Jat? 100%, 50%, 1%? And how would you measure it? This is a complete nonsense. Finally, how do you define "Aryan faith" - and how can you be sure that ancient "Aryans" (whoever they were) only had one faith?

No, Mr. Burdak, your "reasoning" just does not make sense - but it does smell of the abhorrent racial "theories" you have promoted in these pages in the past so vigorously, which I don't believe should have a place in a general encyclopedia like this one. (If anyone is interested, see the Archives to this page for numerous examples.) Yours, John Hill (talk) 05:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Aryan

Mr John Hill, There is article on Aryan in Wikipedia which explains in detail what Aryans were. What do you think Jat religion prior to Buddhism ? burdak (talk) 11:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

REPLY

How about trying to answer my questions first before you start posing new ones? I also suggest you carefully read the article Aryan (which is very vague as to who the so-called "Aryans" really were) before claiming the Jats are "Aryan", except perhaps in the sense that Jats are probably partly descended from peoples now sometimes referred to by some as "Aryan" (whoever they were).
Why not just admit the strong probability that Jats are a group of people descended from a mixture of peoples (themselves each probably already of mixed ethnic backgrounds) who moved into the NW of the subcontinent and mixed with the peoples already there and have since defined themselves as a new ethnic or cultural entity called Jats? Why do you have such an obsession with the "racial purity" and "Aryan" background of Jats? It sounds as if you are ashamed of any other ancestors you might have had. It is really a most distasteful and unseemly position, not to mention unprovable. Yours, John Hill (talk) 12:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


Genetics

I notice User:James smith2 has reversed the information I added showing the prevalence of the R1a haplotype amongst many "ethnic" groups, carefully removing references to the prevalence of this haplotype in groups not usually considered to be of "Indo-European" background (such as Ashkenazi Levite or "European" Jews), Kyrgyz (who are usually considered to be of "Turkic" background), Chaman populations and so on - thus inferring it is a DNA marker which is useful in identifying people as being of an "Indo-European" or "Aryan" background, which it certainly is not.

He has also added the quote: "The association with Indo-Scythian descent is so strong the British have often used haplotype matches with Jatt Sikhs as evidence of Scythian link." Now, first of all, this is a reference to one genealogical website of rather doubtful scholarship in which I cannot find any evidence that they claim (as he states) that "the British" (which British, one might well wonder) "have often used haplotype matches with Jatt Sikhs as evidence of Scythian link." This seems to be a figment of the imagination of James simth2.

This sort of misuse and construction of "evidence" from unreliable sources and selection of only the data that seems to support one's own position, and even twisting what is actually said in the reference, is really misleading and should not be tolerated in the Wikipedia. I will, therefore, reverse James smith2s recent edits. If he (or anyone else) is unhappy with this action, please discuss your reasons on this page. Yours sincerely, John Hill (talk) 02:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi I've replied on your talk page thanks. If you check the version before my edit [2] you will see "The association with Indo-Scythian descent is so strong the British have often used haplotype matches with Jatt Sikhs as evidence of Scythian link." sentence was there before NOT added by me, so please check your facts. Moreover, please obey the wikipedia guidelines and assume Wikipedia:Assume good faith. Please read it. I just cleaned up the article. Kind regards.--James smith2 (talk) 06:03, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Apologies and thanks

First of all, I would like to make an unqualified and wholehearted apology to James smith2. I wrongly accused him of making changes to this article which were, in fact, as he points out, made earlier by someone else. They seem to have been made by a person using the IP address: 58.27.166.36 (apparently from Lahore, Pakistan) on 17th January. This was an inexcusable mistake on my part - I should have checked more carefully before I wrote and will endeavour to do so in the future.

Secondly, I would like to thank James smith2 for his kind and tolerant advice to me to assume good faith - something I admit I find hard to do when I feel I am being faced by people promoting racist agendas.

Finally, I would like to thank him for his sensitive improvements to this article. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 09:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


Article structure

I've started to try to organise the many facts in this article into a better structure; please feel free to improve on it. -- Timberframe (talk) 09:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Jamot

I've removed the phrase "(see article on Jamot)" from the Jat people in Pakistan sub-section because the Jamot article does not mention Jats (although it is catagorised as such). If information is added to the Jamot article to make it obviously relevant to this article then I'd be happy to resinstate the link. -- Timberframe (talk) 07:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

BSP

In the Jat people in India subsection I changed "BSP" to Bahujan Samaj Party; if this is wrong please correct it, but please don't revert to "BSP" without explaining what it stands for. Thanks -- Timberframe (talk) 08:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Hookah image

To show common behaviour in a group is not the same as showing behaviour different from that of other groups. Example: Many different cultures play checkers. But a very common rural tradition in some areas in the US is to play checkers. An image of 2 men playing checkers might well be appropriate for many different areas of the world, with possibly the only difference being their appearance (clothing, adornments, whatever). I don't see any objection to the image in the deleting edit summary, although the statement that it is not specific to Jat people is certainly true. There are Southern US Jazz musicians of many nations, cultures, origins, social strata who use the hooka. I support keeping the image.- sinneed (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that any images should add to, enhance or reinforce the reader's appreciation and understanding of the primary subject of the article. The image in question is captioned "A typical Jat chaupal in a village smoking a hubble-bubble (hooka)", but the article doesn't explain what a "chaupal" is, so it doesn't enhance my understanding; nor does it claim to show anything characteristicly "Jat" - the article makes no mention of smoking. Furthermore, some 36% of the caption (4 words out of 11) is concerned with the smoking which appears to be undue weight for a subject to which the article gives no weight at all. Furthermore, the reader may reasonably be misled by this image to believe that this form of smoking plays a significant role in Jat culture. I suggest that the image serves no useful purpose in the article, and may well be counterproductive.-- Timberframe (talk) 19:22, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Makes sense to me. :)- sinneed (talk) 21:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

122.162.97.233 edits

I reverted the edits by this user and neglected to make comments. The reason why I did this was that "Gujjar" was changed to "Ahir" when the reference stated "Gujjar". Also, the references added either were dead links or did not meet wiki standards (i.e. wiki type pages themselves).--Sikh-History 08:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Jatt

In punjabi>> JATT KI TE GHAT KI..YAARI JATT DI TOOT DA MOSHA KADE NA WICHALEO TUT DI>>WE ARE VERY PROMISING PEOPLE,WE SAY WE DO IT.....OR DIE.WE BELIEVE IN THE SAYING:EVERYTHING IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.177.35 (talk) 06:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

OJLA JATTS

With their irresistible might, they earned the name “Massa Getae” from the ancient Greeks, and Ta-Yue-che from Chinese-both words meaning the great Jats” Massa in Pehlavi language means “Great” and the Chinese word “Ta” also means “Great” The destroyers of Cyrus the Great, the scourge of Chinese Han emperors. Who were forced to build the Great wall in order to escape them. They lived but a simple, down-do-earth, practical life. Inseparable from their houses, riding them awake and asleep, the first bowmen to shoot accurately from the horsebacks, they defeated Tamerlane the great (Taimur Lung) whom they forced to become the “adviser” of their crown prince, Khoja Oghlan-A jat from the Ojhlan clan. Born rulers, haters of dependence, quick-tempered, an odd mixture of happy-go-lucky and the sanguinary talents, they adopted but Royal names-all their clan name mean, royal “prince,’ ‘Head’, ‘high’ or ‘chief’. Breathing war and battle every moment of their life, they had no time to mourn their dead. They deliberately hid and covered the graves of their kings so that nobody could know their burial place and it was for this purpose that they sometimes killed the gravediggers and made rivers flow over the sacred graves of their kings. Like the Great pandava. Prince Bhima (Who vowed to drink the blood from cups made out of their enemies’ shulls and to be constantly reminded of their vows, they mixed their own blood with the blood of their dead. Most secular and their open-minded people in the world, their lack of religious fanaticism is reflected in their easy adoption of Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, and Christianity. Their coins, too reflect the symbols of practically all these religious of the world. From Ashtavegu to Attila to Akun to Ellok, from Balameer to Basana, from Maodum to Mihirkula, from Hapthal Katariya to Toramana Jauhla, from Ghangas to Kasavan-the history of Asia and Europe is replete with name of Jat emperors and their clans. Jats- The Ancient Rulers page 3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.73.1.16 (talk) 09:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Opening sentence of "The people"

I have a question regarding the opening sentence of the "People" section which begins: "The Jat people belong to the varna kshatriyas of hindus...". Should this sentence be in the present tense when in the "Religion" section we read that "Today they mostly follow Hinduism, Islam, or Sikhism" and the article cites recent figures stating that less than half are Hindu. I propose that these opening words be deleted and the relationship with kshatriyas and Hinduism be discussed under the headings of "origins" and "religion". -- Timberframe (talk) 11:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


to IP above, clarification on Jat ethnicity

To the IP above, do not bold your text and put it at the top of the page. If you believe that that is true, find reliable sources that suggests that.

Why are Jats said to be a distinct ethnic group? Are they not a Kshatriyan caste group? My grandfather is a Jat, but he's also Punjabi. Saimdusan Talk|Contribs 10:29, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Jats see themselves as Kshatriya and Jat writers tend to write this. I have read that they are considered Vaisya due to mostly farmers. In Manu Smirti they are refered to as Sudra. There is a lot of mystery around this. Thanks
Hello, where did you find the reference of Jats in Manusmriti, and also where did you find this vaisya theory????Ikon No-Blast 18:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Jats were sudras

http://books.google.com/books?id=W_nVHIDgbogC&pg=PA777&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=j5c2TcmgPIL7lwf73KGPAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=jat%20are%20shudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=orYBAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA231&dq=jat+sudras&hl=en&ei=hZY2TfiRLYG0lQebj9nxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jat%20sudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=j_v-UcLW-g0C&pg=PA15&dq=jat+sudras&hl=en&ei=7JY2Te25HIL7lwfL9s3dAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=jat%20sudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=NK1MhWq-9VkC&pg=PA287&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=dpc2TY6zG8P7lwfZsNGcAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jat%20are%20shudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kd28Ay09adgC&pg=PA38&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=3Zc2TfyrBIWglAe907SXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA12&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=3Zc2TfyrBIWglAe907SXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false

"Religion" section

Are there any reliable sources for any of the assertions made in the following passage?

Most Jat Gotras (which also have the most population) fall under the Hindu Jat Gotra list according to various books on Jat History. During the early 1900s four million Jats of present-day Pakistan were mainly Muslim by faith and the nearly six million Jats of present-day India were mostly divided into two large groups: Sikhs, concentrated in Punjab, and Hindu; in accordance with the Hindu varna system the Jats belong to Kshatriya varna. Jats were Sakas (outsiders from India) or republic kshatriyas, like the Khatris, Tarkhan people, Rajputs, Lohars, Gujjars and Kambojas, and these communities are closely (genetically) related to the Jat community.

If not I propose that the "alternative" theory which follow it should be given precedence over it. The sentence about Jats being Sakas relates to their geographical origins rather than their religion, and so, if it is supported belongs elsewhere in the article.

-- Timberframe (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I am really not sure. There are conflicting theories. Jatt sources claim to be Kshatriya (especially those from Haryana). Those in Punjab claim to be Vaisya (due to farming). Those outside Haryana and Punjab are seen as Sudra. Where I am not sure, I tend to add all and let the reader make his/her mind up. Like wise some claim, Jatts to be Saka, and others Aryan. The area where both these people come from i.e. old Persia is roughly where old Sakastan was. So I would say its the same thing. Cheers --Sikh-History 09:40, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

well I never saw this earlier...its like news to me..., dear Sikh-History,you say abt Jats "Those outside Haryana and Punjab are seen as Sudra."....let me correct you,,,no! Jats outside haryana are not seen as sudras!!!!! all jats exept jat-sikhs (Vaishyas) are seen as kshatriyas....and i can provide references for that + can you plz provide refs for what are you saying???...Cheers-- Last Emperor (talk) 06:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Dear Sikh-History, As per the holy books like Dev Samhita, Jats are Kshatriyas as per The Hindu Varna syatem, check put this link asa reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search=origin+of+jats+from+Shiva%27s+locks&fulltext=Search&ns0=1. Please edit that information on article which shows doubts over his fact. (talk) 08:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Look this article has suffered from edit wars galore. We have arrived at a consensus, which is referenced. Please see WP:MPOV and WP:Balance Thanks--Sikh-History 18:38, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

My Dear Sir, According to Deva Samhita which is a collection of Sanskrit hymns; as per the The Hindu varna system, the Jat status within the caste system is regarded as "Kshatriya".

Lord Shiva has himself told in Sanskrit language in shloka-15 of Deva Samhita that Jats are Kshatriyas, as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्‌टा देवकल्‍पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devakalpā dridh-vratāḥ || 15 || Meaning - "They (Jat people) are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jat people are the prime rulers of the earth."

So, it must be very much clear that Jats are Kshatriyas as per The Hindu Varna System. Even Lord Shiva himself says that Jats are Kshatriyas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ABC XYZ 325 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Title Change to Jatt

Jat should be spelt Jatt. It used to be spelt like that a long time ago. Nowadays, it's always Jatt. New Bhangra albums prove this. Such as "sunny panwer - Romantic Jatt". Please change. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunny19 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Jatt refers to a Punjabi Jat (often Sikh). Non-Punjabi Jats do not use this term, and the pronunciation is different as well. I believe there is a slight cultural difference as well, because of the Punjabi culture involvement (my family is of non-Punjabi Jats from UP). PR-0927 (talk) 02:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
Their are many pronounciations for Jat. I use Jatt, with the second t like "ta". Other parts it is like Jaaat. Thanks --Sikh-History 11:32, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

WP:UE. The OED has Jat, "from Hindi Jāṭ". --dab (𒁳) 11:39, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Thanks --Sikh-History 17:18, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Demographics - Haryana

The lead includes Haryana as an area of significant Jat population, but the table of population by region doesn't mention Haryana. Is this an oversight in the source material (Hukum Singh Pawar (Pauria):The Jats - Their Origin, Antiquity and Migration. 1993, ISBN 81-85253-22-8 Parameter error in {{ISBN}}: checksum), or in transcribing it? If the former, can comparable data for Haryana be obtained from other sources?

The 1988 population estimate is not due to Pawar (1993), it is due to Dhillon (1988). If Pawar is reporting that, he didn't even bother to adjust for his publication date five years later. The estimate is a simple extrapolation of total population growth, assuming that the percentage of Jats has not changed between 1931 and 1988. There is nothing to suggest that this may be realistic, but there simply isn't any demographic data on Jats after 1931, for the simple reason that "forward castes" have ceased to have any official function after 1947.

Of course people today still know if they are from a Jat family, or partially from a Jat family, but this is purely a matter of private family lore and as such not verifiable in any way. --dab (𒁳) 11:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Academic and honorific titles are generally not to be used in Wikipedia

I will go through (again) and remove inappropriate titles from this article which some person or persons seem to keep replacing. In general, they should NOT be used in Wikipedia articles. For the reasons, more details and the occasional exceptions, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28biographies%29#Honorific_prefixes. So, I will do this rather tedious chore once again - but if the titles keep getting replaced - would someone else please take the matter up with an Administrator to make sure this article begins to meet Wikipedia standards? I really don't want to get into another prolonged edit war regarding this article. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 07:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

added info with valid reference !

Hi my username is Aryanjat. Today I added main jat inhabited areas in first para..and some info in genetics section.....with valid references. So I urge everyone that plz. dont revert this as I provided references....If U wanna add more info. than make ur edits in this version rather than reverting !! 15:35, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Famous People of this Clan

I think we should add a new section of upper topic......what do others think ???--Jat (talk) 04:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

please use list of Jats for this, and make sure to attach a verifiable reference to each entry. --dab (𒁳) 17:17, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Jat Models

Today i found a new site on Jat models,,see-- http://j4jat.com/jat_modeling/famous_jat_model.php --Jat (talk) 04:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

j4jat.com is not a quotable source, but if some (or all) of these individuals have verifiable notability, add them to list of Jats together with a quotable reference. --dab (𒁳) 17:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Updated Main Page

Hi,


namaste,ram-ram and sat-sri-akaal,


Today I worked on main article for long time and I adjusted every image to proper size so that it can be fitted in their respective sections. I also made links to other relevant pages in side article,mainly in military section,,,like Mahavir Chakra,Kirti Chakra,Shaurya Chakra, Vir Chakra and Sena medal etc. which will be helpfull for nevigators to nevigate. I also added new image to military section of (14th Murrays Jat Lancers (Risaldar Major) of Jat Regiment by AC Lovett (1862-1919). At last I added new section of 'Famous Jat Personalities' and provided link of List of Jats to it.

If anyone want to make another change to it than plz. freely make by editing it rather than reverting,,and if anyone think I had mistakenly done anything wrong than feel free to discuss here.

thanks !!

-- Last Emperor (talk) 16:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request

{{editsemiprotected}}


58.27.151.227 (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC) I would like to add to this article that Jats were decedents on Mongols. THANK YOU

Not done: Welcome and thanks for wanting to improve the article. The {{editsemiprotected}} template requires a 'please change X to Y' level of detail and factual changes, like yours, require a reliable source. Celestra (talk) 15:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Respected Authorities (official editing crew), I have added some more credible and significant information to this article with really very strong references. I have edited the introduction, history section, religion section; and I have provided references for all the furthur information that I have posted. Thanks! Abstruce (talk) 04:57, 2 november 2010 (UTC)

Jat Caste Status

Editors, please take a cursory look at my search here. I fear we are treading on the same ground again. To my mind there are some poor sources. Haryana online seems to be a copy of the old Wikipedia article from this site which we consensuly deleted. The other refrences are partial sources. BS Dahiya is a questionable source too. Thanks --Sikh-History 09:53, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Caste doesn't even exist in official India today, and is clearly of no importance for the supposed majority (53% as of 1925) of Jats who are either Sikh or Muslim. Whatever the article states about the caste of Jats, it needs to make clear that this concerns the Hindu Jats at some specific moment in history, and it needs to make clear when the Jats were classed as within a given caste and by whom. The most common judgement appears to have been "Kshatriyas degraded to Sudra status".

Any claim or implication that this has any sort of relevance for Jats today needs excellent sources, as well as disclosure whose opinion exactly we are reporting.

People here keep citing pre-independence (1920s to 1930s) sources pretending that they concern the present. This needs to stop. By all means discuss Jat history, but do it explicitly and above the board. --dab (𒁳) 10:06, 1 April 2010 (UTC) Actually searching "Jat caste status" in google books won't yeild desirable results because word Jat has two meanings --


1)Jat- north indian race.

2)Jat (Jati) - a synoname of caste in Hindi.


Now, regarding Jat people's caste or varna status--

Ya Scythian thing has a role in that "degraded kshatriya" status thing as in all his books James tod considered Jat's as scythians and on that "Asumption" he regarded Jats as degraded kshatriyas because saka or scythians are the only degraded tribe mentioned in Indian history + Im not sure if he has even written that in his book....plz provide real text!!! 1) It is to clear that not to relate Jats with scythians as no-where in puranas or vedas Jats are said to be of scythian origin and are actually shown as local Aryans. The story or theory of Jats as scythians is proposed by recent 19th century historians in the period of British raj and they have no solid proof for backing their claims and are just assuming.


2) The "degraded kshatriya" thing in Manu Smriti is written with special reference to "Saka or Scythians" and NO mention of Jats as "degraded kshatriyas" or Jats being of Saka origin what so ever !


3) Regarding Brahmanic rites and ritual, only Sikh and Muslim Jats dont follow Brahmanic rites and rituals on the other hand Hindu Jats do follow these rites and rituals. For eg. Hindu Jat marriages are always performed in the presense of Brahmin Pundits who later chant mantras during ceremony and hawans performed by Brahmin's in Jats houses for purification as performed in Rajput houses. During hawans they consider Jats as kshatriyas + when birth chart or janam kundali is made of newborn Jat baby, Brahmins state their varna as Kshatriya. Brahmins never hesitate to touch Jat nor to eat food prepared by Jatnis (female Jats) on contrary they regard Jats as a respected caste. If Jats would have been sudras than the case would have been totally opposite case ! + Jats, Rajputs and Brahmins don't touch sudras nor eat their food nor allow them to take water from common well and neither allow them to live in common locality where as Jats , Rajputs and Brahmins had lived in common locality and drank water from common well throughout history.

so all this proves that jats follow brahmanic rites and rituals and are not sudras + there is no valid ref. NOR Vedas or puranas mention Jats as sudras or degraded kshatriyas.

"For those who say Jats were kshatriyas and then degraded to sudra....plz give reference and where in ref. its stated and on what bases its written by writer???"


4) Its now clear that Jats are not sudras and it is obvious that Jat's cant be brahmins.....so now remains two varnas, Kshatriyas and Vaishyas.


5) Now Vaishyas are of two types namely businessmen and farmer, Jats can't be businessmen as their is no historical or present record of Jats majority involvement in Businesses. Now Vaishya(farmer) and Kshatriya varna are left.


6) Historically majority or almost all of Jats were and presently are involved in farming as landlords and military services and its very hard to deduct what Jats actually are....but ironically there is very little difference and very much similarity between farmers and warriors....both are well built and a farmer can take up military task easily and vice versa....but it is important to note that...


7) Lord Krishna was from a farmer family and had farming as an occupation but he was considered as Kshatriya and he even started a new kshatriya vansha namely Yaduvansha. After Rajputs lost their kingdoms they adopted farming and presently most of Rajput's in Rajasthan are farmers...acording to it they should be considered Vaishyas BUT its not the case ,same is with Jats, its evident from history that almost every Jat clan ruled the area inhabitted by themselves and many times bigger kingdoms but when they lost their kingdoms they became landlords with swords grindled around them, so it will be injustice to label them as vaishyas + there is no solid references of Jats being Vaishyas, there only are some books with asumptions that "Jats can be termed as vaishyas".


8) Now remaining kshatriya varna for which Jats qualify from every side...as they are known as rulers throughout history and currently forms biggest portion of Indian army with Jat regiment India's most awarded and respected regiment......+ there are ample amount of references which prove Jats Kshatriya status...most important and valid being of 6th century purana Deva Samhita which states Jats as born of Lord Shivas hairs and of Kshatriyas varna..+.there are many other references which states Jats as Kshatriyas....which I can provide if asked but I will need some time for that...+ Jats are included in all ancient catalogs of 36 royal races of India and are a part of them currently...i already provided refs for that and can provide again if asked....and no sudra can grab a place in royal races so it further consolidates Jats kshatriya status.


So, overall conclution is that Jats were and are Kshatriyas but sometimes can be termed as Vaishyas(farmers).


Right now Im adding this info from my mobile as my mummy is currently not allowing me to be on internet...so I'll post more info soon....thanks-- Last Emperor (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Royal Jat, could you please take a look at the search I did for Jat Caste status at the top. Let s make this as encyclopaedic as possible. Thanks --Sikh-History 17:05, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


My Dear Sir, According to Deva Samhita which is a collection of Sanskrit hymns; as per the The Hindu varna system, the Jat status within the caste system is regarded as "Kshatriya".

Lord Shiva has himself told in Sanskrit language in shloka-15 of Deva Samhita that Jats are Kshatriyas, as under:

महाबला महावीर्या, महासत्य पराक्रमाः Mahābalā mahāvīryā, Mahāsatya parākramāḥ सर्वाग्रे क्षत्रिया जट्‌टा देवकल्‍पा दृढ़-व्रता: Sarvāgre kshatriyā jattā Devakalpā dridh-vratāḥ || 15 ||

Meaning - "They (Jat people) are symbol of sacrifice, bravery and industry. They are, like gods, firm of determination and of all the kshatriyā, the Jat people are the prime rulers of the earth."

So, it must be very much clear that Jats are Kshatriyas as per The Hindu Varna System. Even Lord Shiva himself says that Jats are Kshatriyas. (User: ABC_XYZ_325) 15:59, 20 August, 2010 —Preceding undated comment added 10:29, 20 August 2010 (UTC).


Dear Sir, I am really shocked by the fact that even by putting so much of efforts, the users of Wikipedia are not able to convince you. Even Lord Shiva's words were not able to influence you, Sir. This is something that's really sad; but I believe you might have your own reasons, Sir. But still dear sir, with all due respect, I hope you may take notice of reality & edit the article. "The Jat Community" always had & will continue to have the Kshatriyan status. God Bless You, Sir. Thanks! (talk) 18:23, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


Respected Sir (Sikh-History), you have mentioned that Jats did not observed Brahmanic rites and rituals, but how could you claim this ? Please atleast once have a look at the information I am sharing with you, and it's from an authentic source.

It is a fact that, during the Mauryan Empire, some Jat people became followers of Buddhism, but Shankaracharya won back those Jats, who had en masse embraced Buddhism, to Neo-Hinduism preached and propagated by Shankaracharya and his followers. His attempt worked wonders as there are no followers of Buddhism in Jats. And, all of those Jats started practising Brahmanism.


But you have not mentioned this information anywhere. And, the source of this information mentioned above is not any other encyclopedia but WIKIPEDIA itself and in the article from where I have copied this information, proper and authentic references are also provided which have been successfully accepted by WIKIPEDIA.

This information is mentioned in the article: ORIGIN OF JAT PEOPLE FROM SHIVA'S LOCKS

Atleast, please merge the above mentioned article with the article: JAT PEOPLE

So, please do justice with the readers of this article and present this information too. I will be really thankful to you, if you may please share this information in the article. User:Abstruce (talk) 21:21, 9 September, 2010 (UTC)

Look, the sources are not verifiables. You cannot use wikipedia as a reference. We have been through this years ago. We have real problems over the origins, as some claim they are Scythian, others Aryans, others Arabs, some Kshatriya, others Sudra and DNA evidence of Gypsy origin. We must ensure WP:Verifiable. Thanks --Sikh-History 17:10, 9 September 2010 (UTC)


Respected Sir (SIKH-HISTORY): First of all, I would like to thank you for your reply. It's really nice of you to take interest on what i have posted above. I think I should mention here that, I am a very Secular person and respects all Religions, equally. I have some more information to share with you; I want to say to you that: Sir, as per my knowledge, the four Varnas namely, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra and the whole of this Varna categorization system belongs to Hinduism only. And, we are here discussing about the JAT Caste Status of Hindu Jats ONLY, as per Hindu Varna system. And, I had a look at the related articles; and also the Shlokas mentioned DEVA SAMHITA in Sanskrit Language, which were written Millenniums ago; and even their collection in DEVA SAMHITA was done centuries back.

So, as per my mentality, they should have been considered as a reliable source of knowledge; and should have been the strongest evidence about the Jat caste status, as Lord SHIVA himself has said that JATS are KSHATRIYAS in Shloka number 15 of Deva SAMHITA and no encyclopedia writer should question GOD's own words, said by GOD himself. So, if you ask that they are given the Kshatriyan status by whom ???; then, at-least I know someone who did so, HE is LORD SHIVA himself. These are my personal views and I am glad that WIKIPEDIA has provided me with the opportunity to share my views with the official editing crew. Unfortunately, if you still have doubts; then, that's really disappointing as a fellow human being.

Sir, if some one is following HINDUISM; then, I believe it means that person is following BRAHMANISM. Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing; how could they be different. And, this discussion is about the caste status of those Jat people whose religion is HINDUISM (can also say, BRAHMANISM). So, claiming that if a person if following Hinduism and not Brahmanism, doesn't seems appropriate, at-least to me. I should mention that here I am representing my personal views only. So, I would like to suggest that those Jats whose religion is Hinduism; those Hindu Jats in particular are automatically following Brahmanism; as Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing. So, how could you claim that Hindu Jats have nothing to do with Brahmanism ??? And, whose words have more importance then the Statement of LORD SHIVA himself, i believe nobody.

Thank YOU, for giving the users of WIKIPEDIA opportunities to share their view. I am really looking forward to have your views regarding what I have posted above. User:Abstruce (talk) 21:40, 17 September, 2010 (UTC)


Respected Sikh-History Sir, I request you to kindly take notice of the information that I have posted above. Please go through it at-least once. I strongly believe that you would be influenced by this information, and I have tried to maintain a neutral approach too. Please cooperate, Sir. I am really interested in this subject and I would definately reply to your valuable comments. I would really try my best to maintain a neutral approach too. If I am asking you to take notice of what I have posted above then I can assure you that I will not just run away, I will definately reply to your valuable comments, for sure. Please Sir. One more thing I would like to share with you that, some days back, when I opened this section of the article, I noticed that the line in which you have mentioned the confusion about the Kshatriyan status, the line was changed to pure Kshatriya status and the later part of the line was removed. But now, one more time, you have written it back. Why ??? Maybe I guess, any of the user of Wikipedia has done that not you, and you changed it again and I opened the Wikipedia in between that particular instant of time. But, if you wrote that and changed it again then it's really disappointing Sir. Please take notice of the facts produced above. I still cannot understand the claim that Hindu Jats do not observe Brahmanism ??? I am really waiting for your response Sir. Thank You. Abstruce (talk) 10:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC) User:Abstruce (talk) 3 September, 2010 (UTC) Abstruce (talk) 10:25, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Respected Sikh-History Sir; One more time, I would like to repeat that 'if a person is following Hinduism then that particular person is automatically following Brahmanism. Dear Sir, Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing; how could they be different ???. Sir, if someone is following HINDUISM; then, I strongly believe it means that person is following BRAHMANISM. Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing; and no one should have a doubt about this fact. And, we are here discussing the caste status of those Jat people whose religion is HINDUISM (can also say, BRAHMANISM). So, claiming that if a person if following Hinduism and not Brahmanism, doesn't seems appropriate.So, I would like to suggest that those Jats whose religion is Hinduism; those Hindu Jats in particular are automatically following Brahmanism; as Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing. Sir, as per my knowledge, the four Varnas namely, Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra and the whole of this Varna categorization system belongs to Hinduism only. And, we are here discussing about the JAT Caste Status of Hindu Jats ONLY, as per Hindu Varna system. So, I am still asking you the same question that how could you claim that Hindu Jats have nothing to do with Brahmanism ??? Abstruce (talk) User:Abstruce (talk) 3 September, 2010 (UTC) Abstruce (talk)

Respected Sikh-History Sir, I am still waiting for you to take notice of the information posted above. And as far as this question is concerned that what is the staus of Jat caste as per The Hindu Varna system and who has quoted them as Kshatriyas, I have asked you to take notice of such an old source of knowledge like Deva Samhita, even whose collection was done centuries back. I am not trying to influence this article by representing religious views and involving Holy collection of Sanskrit Shlokas ;but my aim is only to put authentic, genuine and verifiable information in front of YOU people who have the command and authority to edit this article. It is not a difficult task to have access to DEVA SAMHITA, YOU can give it a try if YOU want to, and check it out by Yourself. Sir, at-least You should do this much of favour to a user of Wikipedia by viewing his suggestions which could be very useful in improving this article.

And still, I am asking YOU and Wikipedia the same question, if a person is practising Hindu religion in particular than how could you claim that he has nothing to do with Brahmanism, while the Whole World knows the fact that Hinduism and Brahmanism are the same thing or we can also say that Hinduism and Brahmanism represents the same religion ??. Abstruce (talk)User:Abstruce 14:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)Abstruce (talk)

As is have stated before read WP:Verifiable before adding any refernces. This is an encyclopedia, so we deal with fact. Thanks --Sikh-History 12:28, 4 October 2010 (UTC)


My Dear Sikh-History Sir, I am really shocked that You have not edited this section of aticle; by putting so much of effort and even after diverting Your attention towards Deva Samhita, I am not able to convince You to edit this section. I am not here to create any kind of edit war or anything like that. My aim to involve religious beliefs and Sanskrit Literature is purely to put genuine information in front of You because You have the authority to edit this article. And why I am involving Deva Samhita is, becuase this particular collection of knowlegde in form of Sanskrit Hymns was done centuries back; and not decades back. So, this gives it a strong hold over any other reference that You may have come through; please notice this FACT.

Also, I should remind You that Sanskrit Literature is itself Millenniums old and so does the works done in Sanskrit. It is also the a fact that Sanskrit is the Vedic Language and Vedic civilization itself is Millenniums old (4500 BC-2500 BC, as per http://www.haryana-online.com/people/jats.htm); but it is claimed to be older than this by a number of historians. And, Jats are often said to be true representatives of The VEDIC Culture in today's era. So, Deva Samhita which itself is a collection of SANSKRIT SHLOKAS is a very strong reference about the KSHATRIYAN status of JATS.

Their is a saying in Hindi Language, " pratyaksh ko pramaan ki aavashyakta nahi hoti" and right now it is going through my mind.

You know why I am putting so much of effort, because You people have provided the user of WIKIPEDIA with the opportunity to get the article edited by providing references; and not many encyclopedias do so. And still, I see a ray of hope; I still believe I can managed to convince YOU fully and clear all the doubts in Your mind, Sir.

Please RESPECT such old sources of knowledge like DEVA SAMHITA who are so much of old; and respect the effort and work done by those great Historians who have spend their lives in making these works possible in those times.

I personally think that the exceptionally great work done by the Historian Bhim Singh Dahiya should have been enough to clear any kind of confusion in Your mind; as I said earlier after-all You and Wikipedia have the authority to edit this section of the article. We all know that he has also worked as a Chief Commissioner of Income tax for the Indian Government. So, the research done by such a personality should have been enough to clear all confusions. But, I would like congratulate You that You have added his research as a reference in the favour of KSHATRIYAN status of Jats. So please; their is no need to have any kind of confusion when You have so much of sources of knowledge.

Well My Dear Sir, I would like to make a request to You that some Communities from India and a few from World have ENVY with the glorious history of JAT people and their strong political hold, specially in Northern India; and normally try to disturb the actual facts regarding their glorious history. Please beware of such people ,and any rumor spread by them, which they normally does to create confusions regarding the glorious history of JAT people. I believe I can clear the rest of doubts in Your mind; as after-all You and WIKIPEDIA have the authority to edit the article. Dear Sir, I am still waiting for You to edit the article; because it deserve to be edited after so many references. Abstruce (talk) 21:23, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Sikh States

I have seperated the Sikh Staes from the "Pure" Jat states. The make up of teh Jat Sikh states was slightly different, in that the Coinage, Loayalty was primarily to the Khalsa order. The Patiala Nabha states were formed directly with assistance from the Sikh Guru's and their followers who were a mixture. Wheteher this state had not been Sikh followers, I highly doubt they would have received assistance. Maharja Ranjit Singh Court was called Diwan e Khalsa very different from Jat Mahasabha etc. Thanks --Sikh-History 17:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

jatts in teh punjab region?

now jatts are in punjab and in rajstahn and other indian states but it says punjab region...and when u click punjab region it has punjab from Indian side but not other areas that jats might be . . 71.105.87.54 (talk) 03:42, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Gujjar and Rajputs and all ancient foreign nomads and all same.

The Sisodia’s were of Scythian origin and historians derive their name from Sassanian, just as Jat derives from Gatae, Gujar from Khazar, Thakur from Tukharian. The Scythian or Saka tribes were the last pre-Islamic migrants into India. Some entered the plains through the Bolan Pass, and settled in Rajasthan which is why some Rajput, Gujar and Jat clans such as Pawar, Chauhan, Rathi, Sial etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.132.133 (talk) 10:17, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Were Jats Shudras?

some Bhramans believe that jats were ancient shudras —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.132.133 (talk) 10:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

http://books.google.com/books?id=W_nVHIDgbogC&pg=PA777&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=j5c2TcmgPIL7lwf73KGPAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=jat%20are%20shudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=orYBAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA231&dq=jat+sudras&hl=en&ei=hZY2TfiRLYG0lQebj9nxAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jat%20sudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=j_v-UcLW-g0C&pg=PA15&dq=jat+sudras&hl=en&ei=7JY2Te25HIL7lwfL9s3dAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=jat%20sudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=NK1MhWq-9VkC&pg=PA287&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=dpc2TY6zG8P7lwfZsNGcAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jat%20are%20shudras&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=Kd28Ay09adgC&pg=PA38&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=3Zc2TfyrBIWglAe907SXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=CaRVePXX6vEC&pg=PA12&dq=jat+are+shudras&hl=en&ei=3Zc2TfyrBIWglAe907SXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=jat&f=false

Are jats and Gujjars same thing?

Historians derive "Jat" from Getae, "Saka" from "Scythii", "Gujjar" and "Khatri" from "Khazar", Source:-http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/sisodia/origins.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.132.133 (talk) 10:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

JATS ,RAJPUTS AND GUJJARS ARE SAME AND ANCIENT NOMADIC TRIBALS

Fact is Rajputs are ancient hun tribes and were never mentioned in Historic religious or vedic books.The word Raja-putra in some vedic books which Today rajputs say and corelate that raja-putra means rajputs in vedic books is wrong as Raja-Putra in sanskrit and hindi means "Raja as King and Putra as son ."Kings- son" can be any person from any caste or tribe.

Jats were considered shudras in hinduism by bhramins however the great Sikh guru converted them to sikhism and improved their social status.And since then they became above Gujjar which left behind.

Rajput word came into existance in 6 bc .Their status were raised by bhramans of that era who used to protect them and donate money and in return bhramins gave them top status. Jats and Gujjars were considered shudras by bhramins as they were against Bhramins.

Rajputs were Huns tribe ,Jats were Getae tribe , and Gujjars were great Khazar tribe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.198.129.35 (talk) 10:55, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

History

Ancient Period

Respected Sir: First of all, I want to make a personal request to You that please do not doubt my neutral approach about this page. I want to say to You that, I am in touch with Wikipedia for quite a long time now as I am an admirer of Wikipedia. Sir, no disrespects to Your work; and I understand that this is not a chat page and only serious discussions will be followed and answered. Sir, I did of a bit of research about the Jat caste staus, online, and I came threw some significant information which deserves to be on the article. Sir, I tried to post them on the article by editing the article by follow the guideline that one must a strong reference to prove his claim. I did exactly that, write what I wanted to let the users and readers know; and then I provided reference for the edit. Maybe, I would have done a mistake while while doing so; as the edits have not been successfully accepted. But, I am still wondering that what went wrong; but I am looking forward to futhur improve where-ever I may need to. So, I would like to share some information with You, that I feel should be added to this section:

I think You should write these lines that: The word Jat occures only few times in ancient literature, may be because, along with Jat, they were formerly known by other names i.e. their clan names also. Change of nomenclature is a part of the historical process. With the branching of community, its several branches known by different names and when one of them is distinguished by its achievement, other groups also take its name as a general designation. It is therefore quite expected that descendants of many old communities are still present among Jats. A study of Jat gotra names reveals that Jat is a general term for number of cognate clans formerly known by different names[2]. Please follow the reference: Maheswari Prasad, Jats in Ancient India,Jats, I, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, 2004, p. 21

I would like to mention here that, Maheswari Prasad's a Professor at Banaras Hindu University. I would like to request You that You should go threw the above mentioned information and post it on the article. Thank You! Abstruce (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Yasodharman or Yashôdharman

Yasodharman or Yashôdharman (Devanagari:यशोधर्मा) was the king of Malwa, in central India, during the early part of the 6th century. The Gupta Empire had been weakened by the attacks of the Indo-Hephthalites, known in India as the Hunas, towards the end of the 5th century, which caused it to break up into smaller states. Yasodharman defeated a Huna army in 528, which checked the Huna expansion in India. Twin monolithic pillars at Sondani in Mandsaur District were erected by Yasodharman as a record of his victory[3].

During the reign of Kumaragupta I his feudatory Bandhuvarman ruled over Mandasor as it was a major Centre of western Malwa. He belonged to the Aulikara family which perhaps ruled there up to the beginning of the sixth century A.D. Two stone pillar inscriptions from Mandasor in Madhya Pradesh, one of which is dated in 532 A.D., refer to a powerful king Yasodharman. One of these inscriptions reports the victories of Yasodharman. The inscription describes him as the victor of all those lands which had not been subdued even by the Guptas. But the names of the defeated powers have not been mentioned except that of Mihirkula. It appears that Yasodharman rose to power in about 528 A.D. and continued to rule till 532 A.D., (the date of Mandasor inscription) but by 543 A.D. his power must have been eclipsed[4].


Three inscriptions of Yasodharman have been found in Mandsaur. One of these is of samvat 589 (532 AD). Yasodharman had acquired the title of Vikramaditya[5], as well. He started the vikram samvat calendar of Hindus based on Lunar movements. The Kashmiri poet Kalhana has mentioned about three Kalidasas. The second Kalidasa, who wrote the books 'Raguvansha' and 'Jyotirvidabharan', was court poet of Yasodharman. Kalidasa has mentioned the victories of Yasodharman as 'Raghu-digvijaya'. His rule extended from Himalayas in the north to Travancore in south. The ruler of Magadha had become his friend. Chinese traveler Faxian visited India during his rule[6]. The victory of Yasodharman is mentioned in the sentence “Ajay Jarto Hunan” in the grammer of Chandra of the fifth century. This mention in the phrase sentence अजय जर्टो हुणान or “Ajay Jarto Huṇān”, refers to the defeat of Huns by the Jats under the leadership of Yasodharman[7].

The Bijayagadh Stone Pillar Inscription of Vishnuvardhan shows that Yasodharman, the father of Vishnuvardhana, was a king of Virk gotra[8]. Thakur Deshraj and CV Vaidya have concluded that the inscription of Mandsaur indicate that Yasodharman, the ruler of Malwa, was a Jat king of the Virk[9][7] gotra. Abstruce (talk) 13:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe that it's worth mentioning here about Bandhuvarman:

Bandhuvarma (बन्धुवर्मा) or Bandhu Varma (बन्धु वर्मा) was ruler of Mandsaur before Huna victory of Yashodharman.

At the time of Gupta rulers in Malwa there is mention of one more dynasty of rulers in Malwa. Singhvarma was contemporary of Samudragupta (335-375 AD). Singhvarma had two sons namely Chandravarma and Narvarma. Chandravarma moved from Malwa and established kingdom in Marwar. Narvarma remained ruler in Malwa. Narvarma had two sons namely Bandhuvarma and Bhimvarma. Guptas had increased their powers in Malwa and Bandhuvarma accepted subjection of Gupta rulers. Bhimvarma became samant of Skandgupta Vikramaditya (455-467), son of Kumaragupta I. He was probably samant of Kaushambi.[10]

Bhangupta Baladitya became ruler of Malwa after 40 years period of Skandgupta. Baladitya has been mentioned along with Jat ruler Yasodharman in defeating the Huns. If we add name of Vishnuvardhan after Bandhuvarma the chronology of these rulers becomes as under:

Singhvarma, his two sons Chandravarma and Narvarma. Narvarma had one son – Vishvavarma. He had two sons – Raghuvarma and Bhimvarma. Raghuvarma’s son was Vishnuvardhan and his son Yasodharman. Yasodharman’s son was Shiladitya. [11]

Bandhuvarma was contemporary of Kumargupta I and Samudragupta. He was ruler of Mandsaur before Huna victory of Yashodharman. There is a inscription about Bandhuvarma at Mandsaur. The silk workers had constructed Sun temple here which was repaired by Bandhu Varma in samvat 530 (473 AD). This indicates that he was present there till 473 AD. After Bandhuvarma the ruler of Mandsaur was Vishnuvardhan who erected a pillar of victory at Bayana due to which Bayana’s name became Vijaygarh. Vishnuvardhan and Yasodharman assumed the title of Samrat after they occupied the territories of Bandhuvarma. It is also mentioned that Vishnuvardha had assumed the title of ‘Maharajadhiraja’ or Emperor. [12]

Mandasor Inscription of Kumaragupta I and Bandhuvarman

  • Perfection has been attained! May that Sun protect you,-who is worshipped by the hosts of the gods for the sake of existence, and by the Siddhas who wish for supernatural powers, (and) by ascetics, entirely given over to abstract meditation (and) having worldly attractions well under control, who wish for the final liberation of the soul, and, with devotion, by saints, practising strict penances, (who wish to become) able to counteract curses; (and) who is the cause of the destruction and the commencing (again) of the universe! Reverence to that Sun,-whom (even) the Brâhmanical sages, though they knew the knowledge of the truth (and) exerted themselves, failed to comprehend; and who nourishes the whole of the three worlds with (his) rays diffused in all directions; who, when he is risen, is praised by Gandharvas, gods, Siddhas, Kinnaras, and Naras; and who grants (their) desires to those who worship (him)! May that Sun, decorated with glorious beams, protect you,-who shines, day after day, with the mass of (his) rays flowing down over the wide and lofty summit of the lordly mountain of dawn, (and) who is of a dark-red colour like the cheeks of intoxicated women!
  • (Line 3.)-From the district of Lâta, which is pleasing with choice trees that are bowed down by the weight of (their) flowers, and with temples and assembly-halls of the gods, and with vihâras, (and) the mountains of which are covered over with vegetation, to (this) city of Dashapura there came, full of respect,-first, in thought; and afterwards (in person) in a band, together; with (their) children and kinsmen,-men who were renowned in the world for (skill in their) craft (of silk-weaving), and who, being manifestly attracted by the virtues of the kings of the country, gave no thought to the continuous discomforts produced by the journey and its accompaniments. And in course (of time) this (city) became the forehead-decoration of the earth, which is adorned with a thousand mountains whose rocks are besprinkled with the drops of rut that trickle down from the sides of the temples of rutting elephants, (and) which has for (its) decorative ear-ornaments the trees weighed down with flowers. Here the lakes, crowded with kârandava-ducks, are beautiful,-having the waters close to (their) shores made variegated with the many flowers that fall down from the trees growing on the banks, (and) being adorned with full-blown waterlilies. The lakes are beautiful (in some places); with the swans that are encaged in the pollen that falls from the waterlilies shaken by the tremulous waves; and in other places with the waterlilies bent down by the great burden of their filaments. Here the woods are adorned with lordly trees, that are bowed down by the weight of their flowers and are full of the sounds of the flights of bees that hum loudly through intoxication (caused by the juices of the flowers that they suck), and with the women from the city who are perpetually singing. Here the houses have waving flags, (and) are full of tender women, (and) are very white (and) extremely lofty, resembling the peaks of white clouds lit up with forked lightning. And other long buildings on the roofs of the houses, with arbours in them, are beautiful,-being like the lofty summits of (the mountain) Kailâsa; being vocal with songs (like those) of the Gandharvas; having pictured representations arranged (in them); (and) being adorned with groves of waving plantaintrees. Here, cleaving asunder the earth, there rise up houses which are decorated with successions of storeys; which are like rows of aerial chariots; (and) which are as pure as the rays of the full-moon. This (city) is beautiful (through) being embraced by two charming rivers, with tremulous waves, as if it were the body of (the god) Smara (embraced) in secrecy by (his wives) Prîti and Rati, possessed of (heaving) breasts. Like the sky with the brilliant multitudes of planets, it shines with Brâhmans endowed with truth, patience, self-control, tranquillity, religious vows, purity, fortitude, private study, good conduct, refinement, and steadfastness, (and) abounding in learning and penances, and free from the excitement of surprise.
  • (L. 8.)-So assembling together, (and) day by day received into greater friendship by (their) constant associates, (and) honourably treated like sons by the kings, in joy and happiness they settled in (this) city. Some of them (became) excessively well acquainted with the science of archery, (in which the twanging of the bow is) pleasing to the ear; others, devoting themselves to hundreds of excellent achievements, (became) acquainted with wonderful tales; and others, unassuming in (their) modesty (and) devoted to discourses of the true religion, (became) able to say much that was free from harshness (and yet was) salutary. Some excelled in their own business (of silk-weaving); and by others possessed of high aims, the science of astrology was mastered; and even to-day others of them, valorous in battle, effect by force the destruction of (their) enemies. So also others, wise, possessed of charming wives, (and) belonging to a famous and mighty lineage, are decorated with achievements that befit (their) birth; and others, true to (their) promises (and) firm in friendship with the accompaniment of confidence, are skilled in conferring favours upon (their) intimates. (And so) the guild shines gloriously all around, through those who are of this sort, and through others who,-overcoming the attachment for worldly objects; being characterised by piety; (and) possessing most abundant goodness,-(are) very gods in an earthly habitation.
  • (L. 11.)-(Just as) a woman, though endowed with youth and beauty (and) adorned with the arrangement of golden necklaces and betel-leaves and flowers, goes not to meet (her) lover in a secret place, until she has put on a pair of coloured silken cloths,-(so) the whole of this region of the earth, is (almost superfluously) adorned through them, (as if) with a silken garment, agreeable to the touch, variegated with the arrangement of different colours, (and) pleasing to the eye.
  • (L. 12)- Having reflected that the world is very unsteady, being blown about by the wind life the charming ear-ornaments, (made of) sprigs, of the women of the Vidyâdharas (and similarly) the estate of man; and also accumulations of wealth large (though they may be),-they became possessed of a virtuous (and) stable understanding and then;-
  • (L. 13.)-While Kumâragupta was reigning over the (whole) earth, whose pendulous marriage-string is the verge of the four oceans; whose large breasts are (the mountains) Sumêru and Kailâsa; (and) whose laughter is the full-blown flowers showered forth from the borders of the woods;-
  • (L. 13.)-There was a ruler, king Vishvavarman, who was equal in intellect to Shukra and Brihaspati, who became the most eminent of princes on the earth; (and) whose deeds in war were equal to (those of) Pârtha;-who was very compassionate to the unhappy; who fulfilled his promises to the miserable and the distressed; who was excessively full of tenderness; (and) who was a very tree of plenty to (his) friends, and the giver of security to the frightened, and the friend of (his) country;-.
  • (L. 14.)-His son (was) king Bandhuvarman, possessed of firmness and statesmanship; beloved by (his) kinsmen; the relative, as it were, of (his) subjects; the remover of the afflictions of (his) connections; pre-eminently skilful in destroying the ranks of (his) proud enemies. Handsome, youthful, dexterous in war, and endowed with humility, king though he was, yet was he never carried away by passion, astonishment and other (evil sentiments); being the very incarnation of erotic passion, he resembled in beauty, even though he was not adorned with ornaments, a second (Kâmadêva) armed with the bow that is made of flowers. Even to-day, when the long-eyed lovely women of (his) enemies, pained with the fierce pangs of widowhood, think of him, they stagger about through fear, in such a way as to fatigue (their) firm and compact breasts.
  • (L. 16.)-While he, the noble Bandhuvarman, the best of kings, the strong-shouldered one, was governing this city of Dashapura, which had been brought to a state of great prosperity,-a noble (and) unequalled temple of the bright-rayed (Sun), was caused to be built by the silk-cloth weavers, as a guild, with the stores of wealth acquired by (the exercise of their) craft;-(a temple) which, having broad and lofty spires, (and) resembling a mountain, (and) white as the mass of the rays of the risen moon, shines, charming to the eye, having the similarity of (being) the lovely crest-jewel, fixed (in its proper place), of (this) city of the west.
  • (L. 17.)-In that season which unites men with (their) lovely mistresses; which is agreeable with the warmth of the fire of the rays of the sun (shining) in the glens; in which the fishes lie low down in the water; which (on account of the cold) is destitute of the enjoyment of the beams of the moon, and (sitting in the open air on) the flat roofs of houses, and sandal-wood perfumes, and palmleaf-fans, and necklaces;-in which the waterlilies are bitten by the frost; which is charming with the humming of the bees that are made happy by the juice of the full-blown flowers of the rôdhra and priyamguplants and the jasmine-creepers; in which the lavalî-trees and the solitary branches of the naganâ-bushes are made to dance with the force of the wind that is harsh and cold with particles of frost;-(and) in which (the cold induced by) the falling of frost and snow is derided by the close embraces of the large and beautiful and plump and bulky breasts and thighs of young men and (their) mistresses, completely under the influence of love;-when, by (the reckoning from) the tribal constitution of the Mâlavas, four centuries of years, increased by ninety-three, had elapsed; in that season when the low thunder of the muttering of clouds is to be welcomed (as indicating the approach of warmth again);-on the excellent thirteenth day of the bright fortnight of the month Sahasya,-this temple was established, with the ceremony of auspicious benediction.
  • (L. 19.)-And, in the course of a long time, under other kings, part of this temple fell into disrepair; so now, in order to increase their own fame, the whole of this most noble house of the Sun has been repaired again by the munificent corporation;-(this temple) which is very lofty (and) pure; which touches the sky, as it were, with (its) charming spires; (and) which is the resting-place of the spotless rays of the moon and the sun at (their) times of rising. Thus, when five centuries of years, increased by twenty, and nine years had elapsed; on the charming second lunar day of the bright fortnight of the month Tapasya;-in the season when (Kamadêva), whose body was destroyed by Hara, develops (his number of five) arrows by attaining unity with the fresh bursting-forth of the flowers of the ashôka and kêtaka and sinduvâra-a-trees, and the pendulous atimuktaka-creeper, and the wild-jasmine;-when the solitary large branches of the naganâ-bushes are full of the songs of the bees that are delighted by drinking the nectar; (and) when the beautiful and luxuriant rôdhra-trees swing to and fro with the fresh bursting forth of (their) flowers,-the whole of this noble city was decorated with (this) best of temples; just as the pure sky is decorated with the moon, and the breast of (the god) Shârngin with the kaustubha-jewel. As long as (the god) Îsha wears a mass of tawny matted locks, undulating with the spotless rays of the moon (on his forehead); and (as long as) (the god) Shârngin (carries) a garland of lovely waterlilies on his shoulder;-so long may this noble temple endure for ever!
  • (L. 23.)-By the command of the guild, and from devotion, (this) temple of the Sun was caused to be built; and this (eulogy) that precedes was, with particular care, composed by Vatsabhatti. Hail to the composer and the writer, and those who read or listen (to it)! Let there be success!
  • From: Fleet, John F. Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum: Inscriptions of the Early Guptas. Vol. III. Calcutta: Government of India, Central Publications Branch, 1888, 84-88.

I am looking for some co-operation from You, regarding this Ancient History section. Abstruce (talk) 00:07, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Please reply, Sir. Abstruce (talk) 08:41, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Please read WP:Verifiability, and WP:Manual of Style. Please note this is an encylopedia. Thanks --Sikh-History 09:08, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Name

Respected Sir, I am following this article for quite a while now. I have noticed that, for some reason, the following information has been removed from the article; while it was successfully accepted earlier; which itself shows the importance of this information. The information removed is:

The tribal name Jat is first mentioned in the Mahabharata. Jat historian Thakur Deshraj suggested that Jat is a Prakrit derivation from Sanskrit jñāta, based on Panini's mention of Aṣṭādhyāyī in the form of shloka as जट झट सङ्घाते jat jhat sanghate .[13][14]

Deshraj further supposes that the name originates with the jñātisaṃgha (ज्ञातिसंघ) that according to the Mahabharata was formed by Krishna as a federation of Vrishni and Andhaka clans.[15]

Jats are further mentioned in a 5th century grammar treatise by Chandra, in the phrase अजय जर्टो हुणान ajaya jarto huṇān”, which refers to the defeat of Huns by two Jat rulers under the leadership of Yasodharman.[7][page needed] [verification needed]

I believe, the information deserves to be on the page again. I would like to tell You that the Sanskrit Scholar Panini holds a high reputation, whenever there is a mention of Sanskrit Literature or any discussion about ancient historical Sanskrit work (or any work done in Sanskrit). I believe it's worth mentioning here that maximun work done in India during the ancient period is in Sanskrit. He had holded the title of Maharishi (महर्षि), which is a very big deal.

Respected Sir, therefore I would like to add this information on the page, with all due respect to You; please approve it.

One more thing that I believe is worth mentioning here that to study about the origin of name (Jat); a very deep knowledge of the grammer of Sanskrit Language, and Hind Language is very handy. Abstruce (talk) 09:25, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I am really looking forward, for your cooperation. Thank You very much. Abstruce (talk) 09:33, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

  1. ^ Thakur Deshraj, Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 page 87-88.
  2. ^ Maheswari Prasad, Jats in Ancient India,Jats, I, Ed. Dr Vir Singh, 2004, p. 21
  3. ^ Fleet, John F. Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum: Inscriptions of the Early Guptas. Vol. III. Calcutta: Government of India, Central Publications Branch, 1888, 147-148
  4. ^ Post Gupta Kings in North India
  5. ^ Kalhana: Rajatarangini
  6. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 (Page 712)
  7. ^ a b c CV Vaidya, History of Medieval Hindu India Cite error: The named reference "CV Vaidya" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
  8. ^ Fleet, John F. Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum: Inscriptions of the Early Guptas. Vol. III. Calcutta: Government of India, Central Publications Branch, 1888, 254.
  9. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, 2nd edition 1992 (Page 707)
  10. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, p. 710
  11. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, p. 710
  12. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Itihas (Hindi), Maharaja Suraj Mal Smarak Shiksha Sansthan, Delhi, 1934, p. 710
  13. ^ Mahendra Singh Arya, Dharmpal Singh Dudi, Kishan Singh Faujdar & Vijendra Singh Narwar: Ādhunik Jat Itihasa (The modern history of Jats), Agra 1998, Page-1
  14. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Ithas, Delhi, 1992, pp. 96, 101
  15. ^ Thakur Deshraj: Jat Ithas, Delhi, 1992, p. 30
    धन्यं यशस्यम आयुष्यं सवपक्षॊथ्भावनं शुभम
    ज्ञातीनाम अविनाशः सयाथ यदा कृष्ण तदा कुरु Mahabharata (XII.82.27)
    dhanyaṃ yaśasyam āyuṣyaṃ svapakṣodbhāvanaṃ śubham
    jñātīnām avināśaḥ syād yathā kṛṣṇa tathā kuru Mahabharata (XII.82.27)
    माधवाः कुकुरा भॊजाः सर्वे चान्धकवृष्णयः (Andhaka+Vrishni)
    तवय्य आसक्ता महाबाहॊ लॊका लॊकेश्वराश च ये Mahabharata (XII.82.29)
    mādhavāḥ kukurā bhojāḥ sarve cāndhakavṛṣṇayaḥ
    tvayy āsaktā mahābāho lokā lokeśvarāś ca ye Mahabharata (XII.82.29)
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