Talk:Kalash people

Error

Typo in the text and no idea how to fix.

“They claim to descent from”

descent should be descend. 92.40.107.57 (talk) 22:29, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

The article has been updated with this information. Tropicalkitty (talk) 22:42, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Cite errors

@Isaidnoway: yes, I noticed; I'll fix them. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 10:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Sub-header

@Joshua Jonathan: I find the header "Indigenous or West-Eurasian" unnecessary. Neither Kalash are fully/mostly west Eurasian nor they are "indigenous" (don't know what it's supposed to mean). The only thing notable is the Macedonian/Alexander/Greek descent part, which is covered and should have a sub-header. PA - It is obvious that they are a SWAT/Gandhara derived population like a lot of other groups from that region. The apparent distinctness is due to isolation and drift. Ping @Austronesier:. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I prefer a subheader, to have a better overview. But another one, in line with your explanation, is perfectly fine. The phrase "indigenous" gave me the impression that there are two views, "indigenous" and something related to the Indo-Aryans. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 14:04, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk @PadFoot2008 Looks like the entire revamp was primarily done to remove 'Ancient Hinduism' and replace it with 'Vedic religion' under the guise of depiping. Should only report whats noted in sources not what we think is correct or how it should be. Look out for other pages. 2409:4089:AD98:4C14:C590:F56C:544E:CBEE (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

"Ancient Hinduism"

@PadFoot2008: here you again: edit-warring on the miplaced phrase "ancient Hinduism." West's a generic encyclopedia; she's not a specilized author. Witzel, on the other hand, is a top-authority, and doesn't use the phrase "ancient Hinduism" at all. Worse, he says (italics Witzel) "an ancient, common substrate (TUITE 2000, cf. BENGTSON 1999, 2001, 2002). These must be separated from what may appear to be Vedic." Ergo, he isn't even sure those elements are Vedic. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:26, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

West is still a reliable source. You would need consensus for your changes. I'm open to discussing here. You should too before making changes of your own mind. PadFoot (talk) 17:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

• Barbara West (2010), Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania, Infobase Publishing, p.367: "Their religion is a form of Hinduism [...] the religion of the Kalasha is much more closely aligned to the Hinduism of their Indian neighbours that to the religion of Alexander the Great and his armies." West doesn't even us the term "ancient Hinduism." - Infobase Publishing is an educational publisher; Barbara West has a PhD, but is, of course, not comparable to Michael Witzel;
• Witzel, Michael (2004). "Kalash Religion (extract from 'The Ṛgvedic Religious System and its Central Asian and Hindukush Antecedents')" (PDF). In A. Griffiths; J. E. M. Houben (eds.). The Vedas: Texts, Language and Ritual. Groningen: Forsten. pp. 581–636. - Michael Witzel is an aboslute authority on the Vedic religion, who also doesn't use the phrase "ancient Hinduism" here; he does mention "Hindukush ritual has many IIr. and IA features, too", though;
• Searle and Perlton refer to animism and ancestor worship.

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:03, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

She does use the term "Hinduism". There is also a quote still there in the body that uses the term. PadFoot (talk) 18:07, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes, so a better phrasing may be "with Vedic or Hindu elements." See also Witzel p.3: "A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions." IIR is Indo-Iranian. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

@PadFoot2008@Fylindfotberserk@Redtigerxyz @TrangaBellam @Kautilya3 "No one uses the term 'historical Vedic religion' either. Additionally, the user Joshua has a history of manipulating sources, cherry-picking quotations, and neglecting other sources that present different viewpoints. The user frequently references Witzel.Ill give you another example of cherrypicking. Witzel (1995) mentions the Vedic period starting from 1500 BC, but Witzel (1997) suggests it might be from 1900 BC, and Thomas Oberlies 1998 states atleast 1700 BC. However, this user chooses to completely ignore these variations and consistently promotes 1500 BC. Beyond contemporary Hinduism, this user also appears intent on pushing the dates of the Vedic religion as close to the 1st century as possible. Their bias isn't limited to South Asian religion; they also target most South Asian genetics pages. There is undoubtedly a strong ideological bias at play here. 2409:4089:AD98:4C14:35D5:1291:8259:6FEB (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Ah, an IP... An even better phrasing may be: "With Vedic-like or Hindu elements." See also Witzel p.3: "A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions." IIR is Indo-Iranian; Witzsel seems to argue that the Kalash and Vedic religion resemble each other, because they both are rooted in the same Indo-Iranian/Indo-Aryan religious tradition.
Richard Strand does indeed use the phrase "ancient Hinduism":

Before their conversion to Islâm the Nuristânis practised a form of ancient Hinduism, infused with accretions developed locally. They acknowledged a number of human-like deities who lived in the unseen Deity World (Kâmviri d'e lu; cf. Sanskrit deva lok'a-)."

References

Unclear what he's referring to here; ancient Vedic religion, or an early form of Hinduism? Anyway, "ancient Vedic religion" is indeed less appropriate, just like "ancient Hinduism"; I propose to use "With Vedic-like or Hindu elements." For the subheader, we could use "Indo-Aryan religion." And add Strand's quote to the note, of course. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 18:17, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Witzel compared elements of Kalasha religion to Nepalese traditions as well. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 18:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Here's some more from Witzel:

A few key features that highlight the position of Hindukush religion in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions will be summarized and discussed in some detail, as they by and large even now remain unknown to Vedic specialists, in spite of BUDDRUSS 1960 and the selective summary "d'un domaine mal connu des indianistes" by FUSSMAN (1977: 21-35), who, even with an "esprit hypercritique comme le nôtre" (1977: 27), overstresses (post-Vedic) Indian influences (1977: 69; for a balanced evaluation of the linguistic features, see now DEGENER 2002). However, both Hindukush and Vedic mythology, ritual, and festivals, in spite of many layers of developments and mutual influences, tend to explain each other very effectively; cf. the similar case of Nepal (Witzel 1997c: 520-32).

So, according to Witzel, pre-Islamic Hindukush religion contains pre-Vedic elements, is to be situated "in between the IIr., BMAC and Vedic religions," and is closely related to the (ancien5) Vedic religion. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

The current references, including those authored by scholars James Minahan and Barbara West, do indeed mention 'Ancient Hinduism' or a 'form of Hinduism'. It should therefore be included and 'Vedic religion' can be included along with 'Ancient Hinduism' if Joshua Jonathan can provide a source using that term. Given that other tertiary sources used to provide an overview on the Kalash people mention the term, we at Wikipedia should reflect that. These are high grade texts that others use to learn about ethnic groups. The word 'animism' is non-specific and does not tell us much and so that should be removed. Orientls (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Did you really read my comments above? I suggested "Vedic-like," not "Vedic." The term animism is used by multiple sources; it tells us more than "ancient Hinduism," which is imprecise and used only in generic encyclopedias, whereas Witzel, an absolute authority, suggests that the Kalash-religion contains elements which may (italics Witzel) seem Vedic, but are better treated as elements of ancient Indo-Iranian religion, a substrate shared with the Vedic religion (which was the Indo-Aryan religion of a subset of the Indo-Aryans entering South Asia, not of all Indo-Aryans). Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:41, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Heike Ruhland (2019), Peacebuilding in Pakistan: A Study on the Religious Minorities and Initiatives for Interfaith Harmony, Waxmann Verlag, p.107: "Their traditional shamanic religion is probably rooted in Indo-Iranian, pre-Zoroastrian Vedic traditions."
• A.G. Vinogradov, S.V. Zharnikova, Indo-European Ornamental Complexes and their Analogies in the Cultures of Eurasia, p.182: "... the pagan Kafir pantheon, which has preserved the relics of the most ancient Indo-Iranian mythological concepts"

So, "Vedic-like" should be "Indo-Iranian (Vedic- or Hindu-like) religion." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:00, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Dardic

@Joshua Jonathan: The linguistic group 'Dardic' has been recently questioned by linguists, which you have added today. Excerpt from Indo-Aryan languages#Groups - The Dardic group as a genetic grouping (rather than areal) has been scrutinised and questioned to a degree by recent scholarship: Southworth, for example, says "the viability of Dardic as a genuine subgroup of Indo-Aryan is doubtful" and "the similarities among [Dardic languages] may result from subsequent convergence". Besides, we have, for example - The Dogras or Dogra people, are an Indo-Aryan ethno-linguistic.. rather than The Dogras or Dogra people, are an Indo-Aryan Western Pahari ethno-linguistic... - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:35, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I'll remove it. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 16:07, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Mara

As an aside: the article has two alinea's on male purity and female unpurity: "There is a special role [...] impurity occurs." Compare Buddhism and Mara, temptation, 'death', and celibate life, aiming for 'the deathless'. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:02, 26 August 2024 (UTC)