Talk:Kmart/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

In addition, Kmart attempted to compete against Wal-Mart on price

In addition, Kmart attempted to compete against Wal-Mart on price, which failed because Wal-Mart contrived to meet and beat Kmart's price cuts.

Puh-leeeeze. Maybe it's just me, but the notion of contriving carries with it a rather clear suggestion of conspiracy, scheming, and subterfuge. I'd feel more comfortable with "opted", "was able", or "diabolically reset its pricing so as". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.35.118.221 (talk) 07:48, 24 March 2004 (UTC)

anon comment moved from article

Super-K and Big-K

Could someone write about Super-Ks (which I heard don't exist anymore) and Big-Ks (which I heard are going to renamed just K-Mart again)? -newkai | talk | contribs 02:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Super Kmart still exists. There is one here in Chillicothe, Ohio. I thik Little Caesars is what keeps it open though. They do have somewhat of a good location though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.142.106 (talk) 06:00, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Third largest retailer in the world?

It is mentioned that Kmart is the third largest retailer in the world. However, it's parent company, Sears Holdings Corporation, is listed (in its own article) as the tenth largest retailer in the world. How can this be accurate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.145.173 (talk) 03:49, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Headline text

I don not know what all you you people out there think about Kmart but yea so if you would like to know there are not many at all that are called kmart any more, and so it is weird that they have kmart on the home page name when now it is really called the big K and so yea that is why i thought that that was weird you know what i am saying any who, so i am looking for a store layout, and did you hear about belling and he was on the radio station, and he made a barogitory comment, and yea so a lot of people who were that culture, were preety affended, anyways so do you think that martha stewart is guilty, or what about michelle Jackson? I think that he is innocent, but what ever i do not beleive in gay marrages do you? What ever well so yea so this is all about Kmart --[anon]

Blue light special and blue plate special?

Anyone know about the origin of the "blue light special" and, specifically, whether the phrase was intended to echo the phrase Blue-plate special? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 11:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't know whether the intent was to echo blue-plate special, but as I recall, the K-mart term came from a flashing blue light that would indicate the location of a temporary (perhaps in-store) special. An loudspeaker would also make announcements about the special. older≠wiser 12:54, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

Sure. The canonical announcement was "Attention, K-Mart shoppers!" And the blue light was on a sort of cart with a post that raised it high enough above the shelving to be visible throughout the store. The question is, was the name (and perhaps the choice of light color) intended to echo or evoke the restaurant phrase? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 13:06, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The story of the attempted "revival" of this Blue Light thing is probably the biggest example of marketing and business stupidity I've ever read in my entire life.

I can't find a reference but I understand that since Kmart's color is red it was orginally the Red Light Special. Since red light has a somewhat bad connation as in red light district, it was changed to blue. 76.30.113.170 18:16, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Kmart in Australia & culture

Umm, Kmart remains a strong name in Australia, with many ads on primetime TV and in print, it is one of the main department store chains in South Australia at least. I don't know anything about failure or decaying stores, but I wonder why it isn't on this page? I passed three different Kmarts on my way to work this morning, even bought summat from my nearest store on the way back. Kmart in Australia is very popular as a very large department store that offers a range of goods, from books, extensive clothing range, jewlery, hifi, videogames, music, movies, linen, housegoods, a snack food range and many stores feature a plant nursery and garden section. It is also popular because the stores are clean, large and there are so many of them that you can be certain that one is near where you live.

Kmart in Australia is also famous for being a generic clothing seller and bad clothing is often reffered to as Kmart as an insult. Plain clothing is also famous for being "Kmart", comedian Billy Connely once joked that when Christians find Jesus they also find Kmart, as Christians here are famous for wearing tweed cardigans and other poor choices in attire.

Kmart may just be a small chain of department stores that failed in America, but in Australia they are top shit. Kmart is even doing better than the our failing Harris Scarf department store and increasingly failing Myer (Grace Bros in America, I believe) stores. So, what gives? Is wikipedia an encyclopedia for American POV and life only?

Sure Aus has it's own page, but why not put the link at the top of the page or disembag it alltogether? JayKeaton 17:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who laid out the newly-split Kmart article, and my thought process was that it was a related topic, though separate from the US operation, thus in the "see also" section. If you think it can be done better, please be bold and fix it up. SchuminWeb (Talk) 03:55, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure how to cleanly join two articles. The Australian KMart may now have a different "holder" or summat, but I don't think that it deserves it's own page, rather the American and Australian Kmart should just be on wiki/Kmart together. I will try and look into how other pages have been combined. JayKeaton 08:02, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Kmart Australia should remain a separate article, because it is, and has been since 1994, a completely separate entity from the American Kmart. I've added a sentence to the disambig link at the top to make it easier for those down under to find the correct article. 23:24, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

No matter which country they are in or how seperate they are, they are BOTH still Kmarts JayKeaton 11:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject: Retailing

Hello, a new WikiProject called Retailing has been created, and we invite anyone who is interested in joining to sign up. If you would like to join it, then list your name on Wikipedia:Wikiproject/List_of_proposed_projects#Retailing. Tuxide 00:38, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Roseanne reference

I saw that episode on its recent N@N airing, and indeed Kmart is correct. I got it confused with another dumpster reference from that same season, which was where Leon says that the Lanford Lunch Box's main competition is the dumpsters behind McDonald's. So mea culpa on that one. SchuminWeb (Talk) 06:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Issue

"Kmart is a cheap ass rip off of Wal-Mart. Though it was made first, it should be burned to the ground."

What does this have to do with anything (other than sparking an NPOV debate)?

WAVY 10 14:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

How can it be a rip off when it was created first????

Talk:Christmas controversies/Merge proposal

The current poll regarding an issue related to this article is now closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as a new section of the article's talk page).

Last issue: Talk:Christmas controversies/Merge proposal

Tuxide 21:19, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bigkmart.jpg

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Confusion with Kress stores

The Kress store entry mistakenly connects that retailer to Kmart. S. H. Kress started his chain after selling to McCory five and dime which was a competitor and maybe partner with S. S. Kresge. Kress left that business about the same time Kresge stores left the town centers in favor of Kmart. Mulp (talk) 14:02, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Early history, Kresge stores

Is there any source for the early history of the company, and the transition from Kresge stores to K-Mart? My town had a Kresge 5 and 10 store downtown, in the 70's, until about a year or so after a K-Mart was built on the outskirts of town. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sevesteen (talk • contribs) 01:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

triple ditto second on that. I remember when Kresge stores were a major player in discount retaiing, along with Woolworth, and others. I remember when those five and dimes were the small retail business killers, long before Wal-Mart, or Kmart. Kresge should really have its own page in my opinion. And the Kresge entry would be in the "five and dime" category. In any case, Kresge, Kress, Woolworth, and others were iconic stores that changed retailing in the first half of the 20th century. I'm no authority on retailing, but I do remember the days before the shopping center discount stores and the in town discount "five and dime" stores, which would include the non-discount Sears and Monky Wards in town center. Mulp (talk) 13:45, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

There were also Kresge Marts, which had a very similar logo to that period's KMart. I remember one was in the Pontiac Mall (now Summit Place Mall) in Pontiac, MI until at least the early eighties. --24.247.127.219 (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The comment about Kresge Marts was from me, sorry I didn't realize I wasn't logged in.--Banksnld (talk) 16:42, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Organization

I think that the headlines in this article that thalk about K-mart's history should be organized into one headline with some sub-headlines instead of having 6 different headlines about K-mart's history. And, if this were to be done, some of the headlines would have to be rewritten or reorganized. -(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 19:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

K-Cafe

I'm planning on making a section dedicated to KCafe in the article. Objections? TheListUpdater (talk) 21:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation page needed?

The list of athletes with the nickname "Kmart" is getting to be rather long at the top of the article. Any opinions on rewording this to:

For the Australian department store chain, see Kmart Australia. For athletes with the nickname "K-Mart", see Kmart (nicknames)

Then list all of the notable athletes at that article? (or we could just use:

For the Australian department store chain, see Kmart Australia. For other uses, see Kmart (disambiguation)

With the second option, it could contain more than just nicknames.
Any opinions on this? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:57, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It looks really cluttered, and if they do that, people can find stuff faster.74.193.36.176 (talk) 00:17, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.44.12.46 (talk) 22:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Bluelight Internet Service

In the article there is a reference:

The service as of August 2006 costs $14.95 a month and has around 165,000 subscribers.

Is this for real? 165,000 subscribers to Bluelight? Or, is that 165,000 subscribers, throughout the "United Online" service (which accompanys Bluelight, Juno, and NetZero....as a whole).

I just can't see 165,000 subscribers - using Bluelight "alone" - granted, 2006 was "peak times" for "free Internet" (with, or without floating ad-banners).

Not bashing the service, I too used it :) It was simple, and easy to use, but I can't foresee 165,000 people alone, using the "Blue Light" service. --67.34.188.252 (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

S. S. Kresge stores

There seems to be no separate article on the S. S. Kresge "dime stores", nor is there anything substantive about them here. Either they deserve a section in this article or an article of their own. - Jmabel | Talk 04:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Early video game release

Shouldn't there be something about the controversy over theme putting video games out before release date? (or am I getting the store confused with another one) 98.174.245.183 (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC) ghoohg Tuesday, Jan 26 2010

Check the math

"As of January 30, 2010, Kmart operated a total of 1,327 (13 closing by late May) Kmart stores across 49 states, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. This store count included 1,361 discount stores, averaging 92,000 sq ft (8,500 m2), and 32 Super Centers, averaging 165,000 sq ft (15,300 m2)." How can the total be 1327 if it includes 1361 discount stores and 32 Super Centers (total of 1393)? --Khajidha (talk) 18:01, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

obviously the numbers should be reversed, and there are 2 other stores. a quick source check might be a good idea 208.118.163.99 (talk) 17:07, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Spelling error? CorpAration?

Noticed that in the overview section under 'Founded' that 'corporation' is spelt 'corparation' twice. I've amended it but acknowledge it might be historically accurate spelling. If it is, please revert the spelling and leave a note here for future gnomes.

Thanks,

Lexusperplexus (talk) 10:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Original K-mart Logo

It would be interesting if anyone had a picture of the early K-mart logo where they actually had an SS (for SS Kresge) incorporated into the vertical leg of the K in K-Mart. K-mart, into the 70's, also used to have a stripe that ran around the wall of the entire store, above head level, with SSK in it.14:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.93.180 (talk)

Annual reports 1995-2000

If anyone wants to see annual reports from 1995-2000:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020206235406/http://www.kmartcorp.com/corp/investor/annual/index.stm

WhisperToMe (talk) 15:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Fixing pictures

It appears the Super Kmart pictured in this article is out of business. http://www.cleveland.com/brooklyn/index.ssf/2014/08/all_sales_are_final_at_the_bro.html 130.101.90.58 (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

KDollar seems to be gone

I moved the KDollar section from Current Subsidiaries to Former Subsidiaries, and edited it to use the past tense. It appears that neither of the stores listed is still open, and I could not find any mention of KDollar or their logo on KMart's website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.53.220 (talk) 23:49, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Revenue error

The revenue figure for 2010 said '$15.593 million'.

I'm just picking through the Kmart financial report for 2010 and someone mistook the comma for a decimal place. It's actually $15,593 million, or $15.593 BILLION.

Here's a link to the financial report PDF: http://www.searsholdings.com/invest/docs/SHC_2010_Form_10-K.PDF#pagemode=thumbs&page=1&zoom=100,0,0

The figures for Kmart are on page 28. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong?

Thanks,

Lexusperplexus (talk) 10:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Music

Could there possibly be a mention of the recent release of several of K-Mart's background music tapes to Archive, which apparently have become somewhat popular, somewhere in the article? I'm thinking possibly under the "corporate affairs" section. http://archive.org/details/attentionkmartshoppers MXocrossIIB ^{(So, you were saying?)}; 03:47, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

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Kmart dental closed.

Recently I add Kmart dental to the former subsidiary category and I said that the Miami, Florida location was closing.

Someone removed it back to the current subsidiary category. I just wanted to make It clear that that specific kmart shut down recently. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

Bankruptcy?

Someone just recently added "Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection" on the article, yet, Sears Holdings didn't even announce this sort of thing. Yes. Sears Holdings did, in fact, close a bunch of Kmart stores down, but they haven't declared ANY bankruptcy yet to the Kmart stores. If anything, Sears Holdings themselves would also declare bankruptcy too.

Split proposal

Turns out Kmart owned a lot of divisions in the past. Furr's and Bishop's cafeterias aren't even mentioned. Given the length of this section, should the list of former spinoffs be broken into a new article that's something like List of Kmart subsidiaries? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(What did I screw up now?)} 17:18, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Math

Early Years

"Growth in the 20th century remained brisk, with 257 stores in 1924, rising to 597 stores by 1929."

"The Great Depression reduced profitability and resulted in store closings, with the number reduced to 682 in 1940."

The number of stores "reduced" from 597 to 682?

Looks to me like they increased the number of stores in that period, by 85 stores. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 20:35, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Number of stores

I work for the company. After the last major round of closings announced in November, there were to be 60 Kmarts left as of February. However, there have been 2 more recent closings announced, of Raleigh NC https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article238831323.html

and Temple City CA https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/customer-service-apparel-seasonal-pt-kmart-temple-city-store-closing/J3M1V66XH2WY566NZXF

Now there will be only 58 (NOT 70) left, out of which 46 are in the US, and 12 are in the territories. I have called each store to verify this as well. I am posting that list of 58. If someone can show me ANY non-closing store that I have left off of my list of 58, I am all ears. So where are these mysterious 12 extra stores? These are the ONLY 58 go-forward stores. There are no more:

Alabama

Alaska X Arizona

Arkansas X California

    1.  Big Bear Lake 
    2.  Costa Mesa
    3.  Freedom 
    4.  Grass Valley     
    5.  Long Beach
    6.  Mckinleyville 
    7.  Ramona 
    8.  Red Wood City
    9.  South Lake Tahoe

Colorado

    1.  Loveland

Connecticut

Delaware

Florida

    1.  Key Largo
    2.  Key West
    3.  Marathon
    4.  Miami

Georgia X Hawaii X Idaho X Illinois

   1.  Des Plains

Indiana

Iowa

Kansas

Kentucky

Louisiana

Maine

Maryland

    1.  Edge Water
    2.  Silver Spring

Massachusetts

    1.  Holyoke 
    2.  Hyannis

Michigan

    1.  Marshall

Minnesota

    1.  Minneapolis

Mississippi

Missouri

Montana

    1.  Hamilton

Nebraska

Nevada

    1.   Vegas

New Hampshire

    1.  West Lebanon

New Jersey

    1.  Avenel
    2.  Belleville
    3.  Kearny
    4.  West Long Branch 
    5.  West Wood

New Mexico

    1.  Farmington
    2.  Hobbs

New York

    1.  Bridgehampton
    2.  Bronx
    3.  Bronx 
    4.  NY  
    5.  NY  
    6.  White Plains

North Carolina

    1.   Kill Devil Hills

North Dakota

    1.  Minot

Ohio X Oklahoma

Oregon

Pennsylvania

    1.  Columbia           
    2.  Kingston            
    3.  Walnutport      
    4.  Willow Street 
    5.  Wind  Gap

Rhode Island

South Carolina

South Dakota

Tennessee

Texas

    1.  Mcallen

Utah

Vermont

Virginia

Washington

    1.  Burlington

West Virginia

    X
Wisconsin
    X

Wyoming

Territories:

Guam
    1.  Tamuning,   GU

Puerto Rico

    1.  Bayamon
    2.  Caguas
    3.  Guaynabo
    4.  Hato Rey
    5.  Mayaguez
   6.  Ponce
   7.  Rio Piedra

USVI

    1.  St. Croix
    2.  St.  Croix
    3.  St. Thomas
    4.  St. Thomas

---Statistics: Kmart absent in 31 states. 11 states, CO, IL, MI, MN, MT, NH, NC, ND, NV, TX, WA, have only 1 each.

 MA, MD, NM have 2 each.     46 Kmarts in US States total. 
    Puerto Rico has 7 Kmarts, USVI has 4, Guam has 1, so 12 total stores outside of the US.

58 total Kmarts left as of now that are not closed or closing.

    States with more than 2 Kmarts:
 CA:  9
 FL:  4
 NJ:  5
 NY:  6
 PA:  5

6 additional Kmart closings listed (June 2020)

Hey, on jobs.sears.com you can find 6 additional store closings listed.

Minot, ND https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/hardlines-store-closing-up-to-40hrs-wk-minot-nd/J3V8BR78C7K6NDHX4HZ

Walnutport, PA https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/customer-service-pt-kmart-walnutport-store-closing/J3W3Q45VVXDLDHL0G82

McKinleyville, CA https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/temp-cashier-store-closing-up-to-40hrs-wk-mckinleyville/J3T6VH6YCZ3FM72JXW9

Columbia, PA https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/temp-cashier-store-closing-up-to-40hrs-wk-columbia-pa/J3N0J06CB66QFCZJ4Q6

Lebanon, NH https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/temp-cashier-store-closing-13-hr-up-to-40hrs-wk-west-lebanon/J3W3YH761N209SXR5TV

Ramona, CA https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/job/hardlines-store-closing-up-to-40hrs-wk-ramona/J3T2BY74DCBB3CYH34L

There are probably just 30 stores left (Minnesota closed in June 2020) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:86C0:4A3:C556:7ABA:F561:E248 (talk) 15:03, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Update June 28: Edgewater, MD is next: https://patch.com/maryland/edgewater/edgewater-kmart-close-august-report

On YouTube, you'll see Kingston, PA and Marshall, MI bleeding out with less than than 1/3 of inventory left. Closing probably next... 2A02:8109:86C0:4A3:6DE2:EA29:7082:425B (talk) 08:35, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

closures

We cannot use an editor's claim to have phoned all of the listed stores a source for the number of currently open stores. This is WP:OR and is not verifiable. We don't know that the user actually did make calls, that he used the correct phone numbers, that the phone numbers were correctly listed or have not changed. If there are no reliable sources that list the number of currently open stores the best we can do is report the ones listed on the company's site, and find reliable sources that mention any subsequent closures. "I phoned and the number is disconnected" is not something we can use to calculate the number of open stores. Meters (talk) 03:26, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

# Stores Remaining

While I believe the sources provided on the article serve to provide sufficient evidence that as of now no more than 43 stores are currently in operation, it has recently come up for discussion (although in an improper and combative manner) that the true number may actually be less. While I agree this may be true, I am unable to find any verifiable sources at the moment confirming the number to definitively be anything less than 43. Therefore, as I'm sure we can all agree Kmart is not opening any new stores, I would like to propose that the number of stores on the article be changed to "≤43". I was wondering what other editors perhaps thought of this change and whether consensus on the matter could be reached. 174.251.212.232 (talk) 02:04, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Look at the number of stores at the Old revision of Kmart page as an example.

I agree there there must be less than 43 stores that are still in business as of August 2020. The question I ask of you is when was the number "43" was actually up-to-date since it is not obvious to me since some of the citations are over a year old and the citations that point directly to the official Kmart website do not include the access-date field. Just to let you know, I know of as least one Kmart had remained listed on the Kmart website for several months after the store had physically closed.

In the meantime, can we at least "guess" which stores (or know within which states) have actually closed to at least lower the number? Since the closing of a long time business is usually a big news story in the local community that it affects, I would expect that we should be able to locate a citation for that closing. -- 108.71.214.235 (talk) 02:43, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

That's precisely the reason why I think it might be better to change the number to "≤43". It would acknowledge that 43 may no longer be correct, but that the maximum number of Kmarts that could be currently open is no more than 43. While the sources are each from different dates and the Kmart website may not be accurate, I can't see Kmart not listing a store that remains open on their website, and the dates on the news articles identify from what point forward no more than that number of Kmarts existed in each state. I've tried looking for sources stating that any of the 43 locations included have shut their doors, but have been unable to find any. At the moment, I believe "≤43" would be our best guess. 174.251.212.232 (talk) 03:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

How about just saying something along the lines of "As of such and such a date KMart listed X stores" with a ref. We can explain that KMart is still closing stores. Meters (talk) 05:19, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

That's definitely a solution, but I'm not sure if it'd really be an improvement of what we have now. The problem seems to by that Transformco is almost trying to keep it a secret how many Kmarts are left. The most recent official statement of Transformco I can find is from then end of last year and simply states there were 182 Kmarts+Sears combined at that time. If we used Kmart's website instead, that'd put us at 48. As the commenter above mentioned, however, I don't believe they actually keep the website 100% up to date and the sources we currently have verify that at least 5 of these are now closed. To me raising the number to 48 when we know it's wrong wouldn't really be an improvement, and right now our most recent information puts us at 43, so I simply thought it might be better to add the ≤ in front of the number to satisfy everyone since while it's possible some of those 43 have closed, we don't yet have any verifiable source that confirms this. 174.251.212.232 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:45, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

"≤" requires an assumption. How do we know that they will not reactivate a store (or even a different site) to act as a clearance center for merchandise and fittings from closed stores, for example? I've seen similar things happen with other retailers. Simply stating how many stores they listed on a particular date does not require any guesswork, assumptions,WP:OR, or constant updating. When we notice that they are reporting a different number update the number and the "as of" date. If we find a reliable source that updates the number of remaining stores use that source. Trying to keep up with the actual number is getting into WP:NOTNEWS territory. Meters (talk) 06:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

While I certainly see where you're coming from, I can't say I agree and don't see why our two viewpoints are incompatible. If we were to say "≤43 as of...", this simply means that the facts as we have them show we can verify that no more than 43 Kmarts exist as of that date, but also that it's possible (though not necessarily correct) that less than 43 exist as Kmarts are continuously closing. If a verified source were to come along which states a new Kmart has opened, we could simply add that source and update the number/as of date. As for WP:NOTNEWS, to me the number of stores is a simple fact relating to that status of Kmart as a company. The guidelines state that articles "can be updated with recently verified information", which I believe we could do, and that "including information on recent developments is sometimes appropriate, [but] breaking news should not be emphasized or otherwise treated differently from other information". To me, simply keeping the number of stores up to date as best we can doesn't violate these guidelines. 174.251.212.232 (talk) 06:23, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no need to play around with the "or less than" KMart does not say that, so neither should we. It's still your assumption that the number can only go down. Just report how many stores KMart reported as of the given date. Period. We don't say that there are X or less open. We just say that KMart listed X as of the given date (and we don't even have to assume they were open). If there are reliable sources showing that some of the listed stores have subsequently closed then mention it with those sources. Meters (talk) 06:37, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's what we have right now with the number 43, which I'm not opposed at all to keeping as is. I was simply seeking to open a discussion since several editors have been changing it to a lower number claiming that some stores have closed but have been unable to verify this. 174.251.212.232 (talk) 06:44, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

No, that's not what we have. We have a table that lists 43 stores, with a header that incorrectly states it is "current locations", and sources with various dates (one more than 2 and one half years old). That's wrong. If we have that table at all, it should be sourced to the KMart listing (or some other reliable source) as of a particular date. Meters (talk) 06:56, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

To be honest, I'm not quite sure exactly what you're proposing. Kmart's website currently has 49 stores listed (I must have miscounted the first time), including exactly 1 more store than in our table in each of the following states: Florida, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, North Dakota, and Virginia. However, we know from other sources in the table and article that all 6 of these locations have closed. Other than those 6, our table currently matches Kmart's website. If you're proposing we include those 6 in our number, even though they are verified to have closed, and raise it to 49, then I'm afraid I would have to oppose that. I would, of course, be curious as to what other editors think and whether I am in the minority. 174.251.212.232 (talk) 07:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I can see both sides of the argument. Both the current table and the Kmart most likely would not have the correct number of stores that are open as of this day. There is no way to tell by a quick glance to see when the table was last updated and if another editor had the time to verify if the figures are still current, especially when some of the references are undated or over a year old. I also know that the store list on the Kmart website may not be up to date since there appears to be a several months lag between the actual store closings and when Kmart gets around to removed the closed stores from their website. Can we use the Kmart website just as a starting point and then start subtracting when a verifiable reference is available, which I think the table TRIES to do, and then say something to the effect that whatever number we post that the number is the best estimate that we say based upon verified references? Just using only the numbers currently on the Kmart site without an access date listed is just wrong, in my opinion. As the number of stores starts to decline more rapidly, it will unfortunately get much easier to keep track on what is left. 96.64.134.61 (talk) 18:38, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

I've simply removed the unsourced and problematic number of stores from the infobox. The table, as I've said, is wrong. It lists 43 stores, with a header that incorrectly states it is "current locations", and sources with various dates (one more than 2 and one half years old). If we want to have the table, then source it to one particular source with one particular date, state that the table is as of that date, and don't say that it is "current locations". Don't guess, don't assume, don't estimate, and don't do WP:OR. Meters (talk) 08:16, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

No-one is commenting now, so I've gone ahead and rewritten the section. I've removed the virtually useless table and simply replaced it with a simple statement about the uncertainly and giving sources with the best dated estimates I can find. I've also renamed it to "Remaining stores" and moved it to be subsection of the 2019-present history section. Meters (talk) 07:28, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Since some editors might be adding an Infobox locations field in the mistaken belief that the field is simply missing/empty through oversight not because it was intentionally removed by consensus, would it not be a bad idea to add "|location=This field is being intentionally kept blank, please see Talk:Kmart## Stores Remaining for reason why" to lower the number of incorrect edits (and possibly stimulate more comments on the article's Talk page)? -- 68.50.32.85 (talk) 23:40, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

There's already a note there: [1] Meters (talk) 00:44, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Dude, the link is here showing 32 Kmarts finally. I'm not real familiar with editing Wikipedia, but I'll try. If it's wrong, can you fix it up? Here is the link: https://brostocks.com/2020/05/04/how-many-kmarts-are-left-in-the-united-states/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 05:00, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source. Per the webpage "BroStocks is a site maintained by an American millennial who enjoys reading and writing about business and money" it's just a personal site. And the user is even asking readers for updates: "Did we miss any stores that are still open, or stores that have since closed? E-mail us at info@brostocks.com." And worse yet, as of two days ago one of the readers is complaining that the list was actually ripped off from the reader's personal site: "This was copied from my list. At least give Credit." We don't know who either of those web site owners is or where they got their info. For all we know you are one of the web site owners. Meters (talk) 05:13, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

It's a news site. And ya, he did copy from List man Jack on the layoff site, but so did Forbes, USATODAY and everyone else. His is a professional news site on the caliber of Wall Street Journal. And why are you (meters) always running the show here And Winning every argument including the lengthy one I see above from 2020? Why is your decision always final, not any of the other above people, huh? I mean you can look online and see from several sources that only 32 stores remain so why must we remain mysterious about it just because Kmart's corporate owner is? Also, you think I'm the website owner? I might be. I might not be. LOL! That's for me to Know, and you to find out, buddy. Meters, kilometers, millimeters. Wink. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 08:43, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Kmart is ready to leave California entirely

Hey, Jones Lang LaSalle is leasing out 10 Sears and 3 Kmart stores in California. Kmart in Costa Mesa, Grass Valley and Long Beach are ready to rent, they are making a "cold" store closing sale since March 2020. There will be no Kmart left in California (the store locator on kmart.com is outdated) and I am pretty sure, the other ~30 gonna bite the dust very soon. Kmart gave up to order new inventory since March 2020 and every single store is bleeding out slowly.

Source: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2020-08-28/sears-kmart-up-for-grabs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8109:86C0:4A3:8113:7168:B540:C1E3 (talk) 14:50, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

2004 logo first used in July according to its filed copyright

Per the copyright link from Justia, the 2004 trademark was first used anywhere on July 25, 2004, having been filed May 26, 2004, so that October date for the current logo needs to be changed to July, 2004. Source:

https://trademarks.justia.com/784/25/kmart-78425206.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:2CA5:6D9D:EB3F:220B (talk) 22:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Link counts

Link with counts are here, shows 35, of which 3 are closing, so 32 non-closing:

https://brostocks.com/2020/05/04/how-many-kmarts-are-left-in-the-united-states/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 05:01, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

See my response above. This is not WP:RS. Meters (talk) 05:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Closing links

Posted it in another section but not sure if it will be read there, so

we have links for 3 Kmarts closing, Belleville, NJ, Long Beach CA, and Silver Spring MD. Can you mention this in the article or do you want me to do it?

https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/search?keywords=%22store%20closing%22&location=&facetcompany=kmart

https://mocoshow.com/blog/kmart-to-close-its-last-moco-maryland-location/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wF3byAAYzcQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 01:16, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Kmart closing link

Here's your Kmart closing link. Is someone going to edit this or should I?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/sears-kmart-store-closings-continue-200518401.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 00:54, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

That's a reasonable source to say that as of Feb 3, 2021 "at least 12 Sears and six Kmart stores are slated to close by mid-April". It does not tell us how many are still open. Even the Jan 30 Forbes article used as a source by Yahoo does not know how many KMart stores were actually open. It simply says "about 30" and "This latest round of closings remains fluid". Even at that it's not clear to me whether the article means that there were about 30 open as of Jan 30 with at least 6 to close, or that there would be about 30 still open after the 6 closed. Meters (talk) 06:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Kearny NJ is also closing as per an update I requested the author of that article to write:

https://news.yahoo.com/sears-kmart-store-closings-continue-200518401.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACM_keVLp9i4QXWh81UWGx6GY4LxyvLiiPkGqALufTMdA1eWcPqSlwRot3WRi7WsibazJ2dxwYyKC4ltg_tuM3kebVzTjRXj8cQEXRLwQNlNKapo7N7PVCdLuygBEZTTIPL3YE_iYjQn7Qf7cE3Hp7nLf9gTNpXy0PJ5UlHRWxl9

Further confirmed here: https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/search?keywords=%22store%20closing%22&location=&facetcitystate=kearny,nj

Assuming this is a valid link to edit the article.

Also this previous link shows only 3 Kmarts left in NJ, WESTWOOD, KEARNY, AND AVENEL

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/essex/belleville/2021/02/04/belleville-nj-kmart-close-mid-april-leaving-three-new-jersey/4379696001/

Being that the northjersey.com link confirms Kearny is now closing, it is valid that there will only be 2 Kmarts left in NJ, WESTWOOD, and AVENEL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 21:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Better link

Better more complete link. This one is from the actual liquidator. It contains 10 Kmarts closing, as well as 23 Sears for those interested in editing Sears page as well:

https://www.sb360.com/select-projects/events/sears/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 06:26, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Please don't post the same information in multiple places. My comments on this link are that:

You claim that this list shows stores that are closing, but the source itself does not say say that. It does not say what this list is at all.
It's not dated.

Meters (talk) 06:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Re No. 1. Starting from the home page I found https://www.sb360.com/select-projects/events/ The label on the link with the store listings is "SEARS AND KMART CLOSING LOCATIONS" so we can show that those are store closings. So, we have sources to show that those 10 KMarts will be liquidated. We still don't know when they will be liquidated. Has it started or is SB360 just listing contracts for future liquidations? We also don't know many stores are left, or even if these are the same stores mentioned in the Yahoo/Forbes stories. Meters (talk) 07:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I posted in several places because nobody hardly ever replies so I was getting impatient. Also, I never claimed to have a source for the store count (at this moment, although I have in the past). I simply provided the link so someone can mention that those 10 Kmarts are (at some point) liquidating. If you don't want to post it, then don't. Keep people misinformed, I really don't care either way, man. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 16:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Additional closings

According to USA TODAY, the Kmart in Kearny NJ, as well as several Sears are in this additional list of closures. This is an older article that was just updated on Feb 15, upon my request to the author, Kelly Tyko:

https://news.yahoo.com/sears-kmart-store-closings-continue-200518401.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACM_keVLp9i4QXWh81UWGx6GY4LxyvLiiPkGqALufTMdA1eWcPqSlwRot3WRi7WsibazJ2dxwYyKC4ltg_tuM3kebVzTjRXj8cQEXRLwQNlNKapo7N7PVCdLuygBEZTTIPL3YE_iYjQn7Qf7cE3Hp7nLf9gTNpXy0PJ5UlHRWxl9

What I usually do, when I Learn of a closure, through personal observation, word of mouths, store-closing job listings, etc., is contact news sources like USA TODAY, asking them to investigate and write a piece on it. I usually contact local media in the area the store is closing too. This generates a "link" that Wiki can use to edit the article. In this case, I Learned about the closing from Kmart's job page here, as well as calling the store:

https://jobs.sears.com/en-US/search?keywords=%22store%20closing%22&location=&facetcitystate=kearny,nj

TL/DR: USA TODAY confirmed the closing of Kearny NJ as per the first link above.

23 Kmarts left confirmed

This Forbes article confirms there are 23 Kmarts left:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaellisicky/2021/03/09/kmart-has-kept-the-lights-on-at-a-manhattan-landmark-for-25-years/?sh=77488d5e5bbe

^ From that article, "Besides, with only 23 remaining locations, Kmart is no longer a profitable and dependable outlet for suppliers."

I assume I can edit based on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 07:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

No you can't. Per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources#Forbes.com contributors Forbes .com is considered generally unreliable. In this particular case Michael Lisicky is a contributor, not a staff member, and the post has not been published in Forbes, so this source is not considered reliable. Meters (talk) 17:38, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Can you explain why Forbes is now considered unreliable, especially since Forbes, itself, was cited in the article right above where I used it? I'm not trolling, I am genuinely curious. When you write that the post has not ben published in Forbes, what are you referring to? I literally posted a link to Forbes, so how is an article in Forbes, not published in Forbes? I am sincerely asking.

So now Forbes cannot be referenced, despite multiple references to it right above where I made my edit:

" As of May 9, 2020, Forbes reported 34 Kmart stores open in the continental United States, with others in Puerto Rico, the United States Virgin Islands and Guam.[152] On June 2, 2020, Forbes reported that an earlier story had incorrectly interpreted the available information when determining the number of stores remaining open, and reported that the online store locator listed 50 Kmart stores, but that unnamed sources estimated the correct number to be as low as 43 stores. Forbes was unable to obtain an accurate number from the company, stating that "the company itself continues to decline providing information."[153]

In January 2021, Forbes reported that they are still unable to get an accurate count of the number of operational stores, with numbers ranging between 48 and 32 at the beginning of January. An expert in retail bankruptcies at Debtwire calls the store closings "a slow motion liquidation".[154]"

So you don't want Forbes. You dont want the company's own website. You don't want research. What exactly do you want as proof of store counts? If you use their website as a starting point, and then link to each closing from that, it is fairly easy to ascertain how many stores are left, but for some reason you want this information kept secret. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 17:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Read the link. You linked to Forbes.com. Forbes.com is not Forbes magazine, and this post was not published in the magazine. This just a contributor's post, and has not undergone editorial oversight the way a magazine article has. Consensus is that this cannot be considered a reliable source.

If there are other references that claim to be Forbes magazine but are actually Forbes.com postings (and that were also written by non-staff contributors and never published in the magazine) then they are also based on non-reliable sources. Please remove them or find reliable sources.

And please don't make personal attacks. I'm not trying to keep anything secret. I'm simply asking for reliable sources for the claims, per Wikipedia policy. Meters (talk) 18:04, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I did not make any personal attacks, nor do I intend to. I am simply discussing the subject matter at hand. So let me ask this: If I were to contact Forbes MAGAZINE and ask them to, instead, publish that article IN THEIR MAGAZINE, would that then be a reliable source? What source would be considered reliable? USA TODAY, for example? I have some contacts there, also, and I can request them to write an article about 23 remaining Kmarts. Would that evidence then be admissible? Or again, if I ask Forbes to publish this in their mag., would that be admissible?

Alternatively, we can go about this in a slightly more roundabout, but equally as accurate way: I think we all agree that although there are some closed stores that have not been removed from the Kmart.com store finder website, there are zero stores that are open that are missing from their site. Does that make sense? In other words, while there are some defunct, obsolete stores remaining on the website, the opposite is not true. There are no currently open stores that are missing from the website. So why don't we (and just throwing out an idea here) use the Kmart website as a starting point, then use valid links to every subsequent closing of obsolete stores that are still listed on that website? Their website (if I'm not mistaken) lists about 37 Kmart stores. So use that as a starting point, and I can provide VALID LINKS to 14 of those Kmarts having been closed, or currently closing. That would prove that there are 23 Kmarts left, wouldn't it? I mean the information is linked, and is out there. I am not relying on phone calls, or my own unlinked research. I would rely on Kmart's website, and subsequent links proving some of the stores on their website are obsolete, leaving 23 non-closing Kmarts. Once the current round of closures wraps up in April, there would only be 23 operating Kmarts, and if we can legitimately link and prove this, I believe it would be a service to our readers. Thoughts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

No. This is WP:OR, specifically WP:SYNTHESIS. You would know this if you had bothered to read the links on your talk page before deleting them. If we have a reliable source that says "there are X stores open" we can say that. If we have a reliable source that says that "store ABC has closed" we can say that. We cannot combine the two sources to say that "there are now X-1 stores open". I have not said that we cannot use the company's web site, and I have not said that we cannot use Forbes magazine. What I have said and am saying is that editors cannot do their own research, that personal web pages are not reliable sources, that we cannot combine sources to make claims that are not in either source, and that per WP:FORBESCON Forbes.com (which you were using) is not acceptable

You are not a reliable source. An individual's personal web page is not a reliable source. A non-staff contributor's post on Forbes.com is not a reliable source. And since you have hinted that you are the individual behind the webpage and the Forbes.com posts you have attempted to cite, please read WP:SELFCITE.

If ~~Forbes.com~~ Forbes magazine or some other reliable source is willing to publish your material (after putting it though whatever editorial oversight they use) then Wikipedia can use it.

As for this being "a service to our readers", I don't see it. The chain is in liquidation. All of the stores will eventually be closed. That's how chain liquidations work. I'm not trying to find reliable sources for your claims, because it's a moving target and I just don't see it as being all that useful. Sure, the number of stores currently remaining is interesting if' it is reliably sourced, but the day-by-day closures of stores not so much, and the attempt to calculate how many stores are remaining is right out. It's not as if people thinking of going to their local KMart liquidation are going to read Wikipedia to see if they still have a store in their area. Meters (talk) 01:55, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

That looks LIKE "OR" TO ME! "The chain is in liquidation. All of the stores will eventually be closed. That's how chain liquidations work."Italic text Really? How do you Know this? I Know for a fact that it isn't true. All stores are NOT in liquidation. Should I go ahead and redact this OR? The only stores in liquidation are on this site. ^[1]

The rest are NOT in liquidation and might never close. Please do not include OR in this Talk page or I'll remove it under notaforum. I can do this too. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 06:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

"It's not as if people thinking of going to their local KMart liquidation are going to read Wikipedia to see if they still have a store in their area. ". How do you Know they are not? What about your rules about not making assumptions? That above sentence would not meet your own criteria. For the record, I AM a reliable source, but I did not site myself in my more recent edits. I am not currently using a "personal web page" so I'm not sure what you're referring to. I might have cited those in the past, but I have not recently nor do I plan to. I will contact Forbes MAGAZINE and my contacts at USA TODAY to publish the count, so it can be used. The entire chain is not currently in liquidation. We do not Know that all stores will eventually be closed. Now who is using conjecture? That's pretty ironic since you criticized me for just that. Also, how do we Know that people won't Check Wiki to see if their local store is open. Do you Know every single person on Earth? Maybe some people will look here. We don't Know for certain how many people will look here for that information. You are just assuming that they wouldn't. I am literally following your standards, but you aren't following your OWN standards.

If I'm mistaken about the chain begin in liquidation, well sorry. I made a mistake. The difference is that, unlike your various edits, I didn't attempt to put my assumption into the article using WP:SYNTH, WP:OR, by citing my own web page or work, by citing a non-reliable source, or by citing no source at all. I simply made a comment on the talk page. I'm perfectly happy for you to put your information in the article as long as you provide proper sourcing. I've already said that "If Forbes magazine or some other reliable source is willing to publish your material (after putting it though whatever editorial oversight they use) then Wikipedia can use it." And, as I also said, "I'm not trying to find reliable sources for your claims, because it's a moving target and I just don't see it as being all that useful." That's my opinion, but I'm not saying it can't go in, just that I'm not going to do the work of finding reliable sources for you.

As for your claim that you are a reliable source, well, no. You can create an account, tell us who you are, confidentially prove your identity to OTRS, and then prove to us that you are "widely acknowledged by reliable publications to be an expert in the field". Even then you still have to provide reliable sources and wouldn't get to cite your own website. See WP:EXPERT and Help:Wikipedia editing for non-academic experts. Having seen the type of synthesis you use, I have my doubts about the rigour of your methods. Meters (talk) 03:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The ^ final sentence above is a borderline personal attack. Honestly, I couldn't care less, but when I made a similar comment above, you considered it a personal attack. If one can dish it out, they should be able to take it too. When I wrote above, that you wanted to keep the counts secret, you answered "And please don't make personal attacks. I'm not trying to keep anything secret.". But you then get to personally attack me by writing "I have my doubts about the rigor of your methods.". SO it's not a personal attack when YOU do it? Whatever.

Again, you don't like my providing information, and I would never do it in the main article, but I'll write it here. I worked for this company and am quite familiar with it. It's quite POSSIBLE that the chain will close stores but we do not Know that. There are 21 stores that are currently NOT closed or closing, so I'm glad you corrected yourself, because as of now, the entire chain is not in liquidation. Although unlikely, it is indeed possible that the remaining 21 will continue forever.

Now, I'll end with this. Yes, I made some edits to the article BEFORE I BECAME FAMILIAR WITH WIKIPEDIA'S RULES. Now that I am familiar with it, I have not done that (except for my mistake of considering Forbes contributors a reliable source). Again, I didn't Know the rule about that, and now I Know it so I don't do that. I Learn from my errors. Have you seen me edit the article since my Forbes mistake? Nope, I haven't. I'm trying to do this properly and within the rules. As for your claiming you don't want to help me find sources, um, OK. I never asked you to help me with anything. Good Night. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk • contribs) 04:43, April 7, 2021 (UTC)

Well, since you claim to be so good at following Wikipedia's rules, here are two more for you:

Sign and indent your talk page posts.
Do not refactor other editor's talk page posts. "Rigour" is not a typo where I am from, and even if it were it is not your place to correct it.

No, my comment is not a personal attack. You were clearly engaging in WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR.

And please read what I actually wrote. I did not claim that you asked me to provide sources. I simply said that I was not interested in looking for them myself since I didn't think the information was worth including. Meters (talk) 06:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't Know how to sign and indent anything on here. Why don't you show me how? And I'm not sure what is wrong with correcting a typo? I would have no issue with someone correcting mine. Also, not a personal attack, but for someone who is probably not in the US (based on the British spellings you use), it is interested that you are very involved with the editing of Kmart's Talk page (a company which is pretty much limited to the US and a few surrounding territories). And I was NOT engaging in synthesis and OR after I was advised that it wasn't allowed. Let's stop harping in the past (I didn't Know the rules back then). Couldn't I also call it "OR" or "synthesis" when you incorrectly claimed in the Talk page that all Kmarts were liquidating? Or when you implied that people don't Check wiki to see which stores are still open? How do we Know that they don't? Any suppositions I made (after I was advised of the rules) were and are limited to the TALK page not the article, exactly like you did. OK, you're not interested in looking for sources yourself. Great! And you're Telling me this, why? Where did I imply that you were or were not interested in finding anything? That's great that you expressed to me what your interests are, I'm sure with several billion people on Earth, many will have varied interests, but I am still curious as to why you shared your interests (or lack thereof) with me. I don't want anybody's help finding anything, never asked for it, so while the scope of your interests are indeed fascinating, again, I'm not sure what was the need to share them with me. If I see any interesting and valid sources/links, I will post about them here to see if they are acceptable before further editing the article. I contacted Forbes MAGAZINE as well as some other valid sources, with the information I had, and I await to see if they will publish them, thus making it valid, for the purposes of this site. Also when you have doubts about the RIGOR of my methods, that could be construed as a borderline personal attack.

Lastly, I'm sure this won't be considered valid for the article, so I'll limit it to the Talk page. I found these links showing that 2 Kmarts in Florida, Marathon and Key Largo, are closing, which reduces the (unsourced) count from 23 to 21. I will not rely on it to edit the article, because I Know the rules now, but it is still here because people DO read the Talk page, on occasion:

https://keysweekly.com/42/goodbye-kmart-job-sites-advertise-store-closing-positions-in-marathon-key-largo/

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article250255795.html

And another off-the record post showing the 32 combined Sears and Kmarts that are currently in liquidation, for anyone interested:

https://www.sb360.com/select-projects/events/sears/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 22:06, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

173.241.182.119 (talk) 22:08, 12 April 2021 (UTC) Never mind, I think I just figured out how to sign this.

173.241.182.119 (talk) 22:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect statement, proven with verified sources (SEC and Business Insider)

"Kmart's profitability and sales peaked in 1992, and have since declined due to competition with Walmart, Target, and internet shopping" statement is incorrect, specifically the "sales peaked" portion, as the SEC keeps record of fiscal years for publicly traded companies. From this source: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/56824/0000950124-96-002574.txt

it is reported that for fiscal 1992, ending January 27, 1993, Kmart reported sales of $28,890 million.

In 2000, as also reported from the SEC, source here: https://sec.report/Document/0000950124-01-001450/

it is reported their sales were $37,028 million. This $37 billion sales peak is mentioned by Business Insider from this link here: https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-that-show-kmarts-decline-2016-6#:~:text=At%20its%20peak%20in%202000,sales%20and%20had%202%2C156%20stores.

"At its peak in 2000, Kmart raked in $37 billion in sales and had 2,156 stores."

This means two verified sources have discredited the statement in the article, and it needs to be rectified to say Kmart's sales peaked in 2000. Thank you.

Someone edited article to show 21

I see that someone edited the article to show 21 stores using the Forbes (not magazine) reference. If I wasn't allowed to do that, why is this person allowed to do it? Have the rules changed somewhat since my similar edit was reversed and I was advised not to cite Forbes "commentators"? Because that's exactly what this guy did. For the record, he (or she) is correct, in that 21 will be remaining after May.

173.241.182.119 (talk) 19:58, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I've removed it. Feel free to WP:SOFIXIT yourself next time.

And not only is the source not reliable, but it does not say that the closings will happen in May. It says that it will "likely be by May or June". Even if this were not just a guess by a non-reliable source we would not include that number in the infobox as the current number of open stores. Meters (talk) 03:25, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

OK, good, I'm glad you removed it. At least the rules are being applied fairly to everyone. As for "fix it", I am not that familiar with how to do it so I just left it to the experts. IF I see a reliable source I will run it by everyone in the TALK page so we can all discuss if it's acceptable.

173.241.182.119 (talk) 06:24, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

2 more closing

OK, I have links to 2 more that are closing. Can someone confirm if these are valid links for editing the article? After these close, there will only be 1 Kmart left in California.

https://pajaronian.com/kmart-in-watsonville-closing-doors-in-august/

https://www.tahoedailytribune.com/news/longtime-south-lake-tahoe-retailer-kmart-closing-this-summer/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.241.182.119 (talk) 04:43, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Those are acceptable sources to show that those two stores are expected to be closing this August. They are not acceptable sources to say that there will then only be one store in California. One source does not mention how many California stores there are at all, and the other says that there are six but references that to a site that is apparently no longer being updated.

I really don't see the point in listing every media report that a store is closing. Meters (talk) 05:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

How many times do I have to point you to WP:OR? We cannot include your original research about how many stores remain. Meters (talk) 05:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Again with the attitude! WHERE DID I STATE THAT I WANTED TO INCLUDE MY ORIGINAL RESEARCH?????? I asked if those are valid links to edit the article with. Did you even read my question? It was an observation that I posted IN THE TALK page that there would only be 1 Kmart left in California. I didn't write that I would include that in the main article. I simply asked if those sources were valid. I follow the rules around here, now, and YOU jump on me for no reason. By asking "HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO POINT YOU", YOU are taking the attitude with me, when I simply asked an innocent question. If you don't see the point in listing every media report of a closing, then why wasn't that enforced in the past? Seems to me that every closing since around 2019 Or So, has been listed in the article. Are you suggesting that no further listings should be included in the article? I think, with a company that has 18 non-closing stores (I Know, I Know, the count can't be included in the article), every single closing is very significant because it represents a huge percentage of the remaining stores. When the count of non-closing stores dropped from 20 to 18, that means 10% of the (previous go forward) stores are closing. Personally, (of course I won't include this in the article), I believe that the Guam/USVI Kmarts will never close (at least not any Time soon) because they are extremely Profitable, unlike the stateside stores. So some amount of Kmarts will be remaining and non-closing for the foreseeable future. Point is, that every closing is significant, because it represents a sizable portion of the remaining stores. So anyway, should these 2 articles NOT be included in the main article? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 06:03, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

You asked a question, and I answered it. Did you read what I wrote? The talk page is not a forum. You should not use it to continue to list your original research. If you are not suggesting that it be included in your edit then you should not mention it. Please stop mentioning your calculations about how many stores are left. The next time you add unsourced original research to this talk page I will delete it under WP:NOTAFORUM.

And I have already explained to you that I don't see any point in listing every store closure. I didn't say that you couldn't add them. Don't try to put words in my mouth. If you have valid references then go ahead and add them, but I don't see the point, so I won't help and I won't argue against anyone else who removes it. Meters (talk) 06:12, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

You put words in my mouth by referring to original research. And the very definition of a "TALK PAGE" IS a forum. It's a page for people to, well, Talk. Don't boss me around or give me orders. You are not my boss so stop acting like that. Should I point to the part ABOVE where you wrote on THE TALK page that all Kmarts were liquidating and closing? Which is not true by the way. Why are you not lecturing yourself about that? Again, you wrote "The chain is in liquidation. All of the stores will eventually be closed. That's how chain liquidations work. I'm not trying to find reliable sources for your claims, because it's a moving target and I just don't see it as being all that useful" above. So you included YOUR OWN RESEARCH. How did you Know all stores are liquidating? THEY ARE ACTUALLY NOT. But I don't see yourself lecturing yourself about it. I can write anything I want on THE TALK page, because it is just that.....A TALK PAGE!!!!! It is a place for us Kmart employees, or ex-employees, or even fans and shoppers to TALK about Kmart. Once we have sources, then we can edit the article. It's like a practice tennis match before the actual match, if you will. Sort of like a place to practice basketball before the actual game is played. And I DID sign my page. Again, give orders to your dog, because I don't follow orders from fellow Wikipedians. This is a page where we casually Talk about Kmart happenings over a few Beers, and shoot the shoot, as the expression goes. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 07:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

You didn't sign your first post, you didn't indent your replies, and no, this is not "a place for us Kmart employees, or ex-employees, or even fans and shoppers to TALK about Kmart" This is a place to discuss changes to the article. Meters (talk) 07:39, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm done discussing this with you. I will not answer any more of your questions. Maybe you can find someone else who will. Meters (talk) 07:40, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

OK, so be "done" discussing it with me. I didn't ask you to, so don't do me any favors. My question wasn't directed specifically at you anyway. I'll be happy to discuss it with someone else. It is a TALK page. For people to TALK about Kmart. It is like the practice court where one practices tennis before going out to center court at Wimbledon. The match rules that apply in Wimbledon do not apply on an informal practice match. The Talk page is the practice match. The article is Wimbledon. And again, you conveniently didn't address the part where you incorrectly ASSUMED that ALL Kmarts were closing (they are not). I don't Know how to indent anything here. I signed my replies. If I forgot to do it once, it's because I am not perfect. Sue me.173.241.182.119 (talk) 22:17, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Kmart logo.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:52, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

Kmart website

So the Kmart website appears to me to have been finally updated, by removing the defunct stores. Their site ^[2] currently lists 20 locations (however 2 of those locations, Freedom/South Lake Tahoe CA) have already been sourced ^[3] as closing soon, in August 2021, and another location (Manhattan NY) has been sourced ^[4] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7] as having already closed this Week. Would the Kmart site, itself, now be considered an accurate source for store counts? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 19:59, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Also, this is original research on my part, and I won't use it in the article, but I Know that while the main part of the Manhattan (Astor place) store is closed, the pharmacy department is remaining open until July 17 to allow people to pick up their remaining drugs. It is very possible that the Kmart website will remove the Manhattan location from it, upon that closure on July 17. I will Check the website on July 18 to see if this is the case. Should that happen, then their site would reflect the correct 19 open stores. It is possible that we might have an accurate source of counts (via the Kmart website) at that point. Time will Tell.173.241.182.119 (talk) 00:47, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Table

I have included a table of remaining Kmart stores based directly from the Kmart store locator and the information that is present on that. The Kmart store locator is sourced. If anyone has an issue of how the table is presented, please discuss on how we can compromise to properly present the table and include it in the article. Thank you.Brse2021 (talk) 19:30, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It's a table of Kmarts. We don't need a column stating that each store is a Kmart. Removed Meters (talk) 19:42, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

So now someone else removed the table. Can I ask what the problem was with that table? It appears to be 100% sourced from Kmart's website, so I am not understanding the problem with it, since it contains no original research. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 23:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

You'll have to ask the editor who removed it if you don't understand or don't agree with his edit summary. The summary didn't mention either sourcing or OR as the reason. Meters (talk) 06:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I'm the aforementioned editor. (You coulda tagged me, my name's in the edit history). Anyway, while it's a good list, I pulled it as store listings clearly fall under WP:NOTDIR (as cited in the edit summary), specifically No.7 on that list, which cites "simple lists", including lists of store locations, as not falling within Wikipedia's scope. Pokemonprime (talk) 10:17, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

While I see that, I don't believe a table this small should be an issue. After all, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia... the table includes information on the subject of Kmart. This is not a table of all the Kmart store locations, just the ones remaining. That shouldn't obstruct Wikipedia's rules. Again, if we're going to bring up this issue of WP:NOTDIR, then every sentence in the article that mentions the closure of a Kmart store should be removed. Brse2021 (talk) 13:00, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Brse2021, Wikipedia isn't an indiscriminate collection of information. WP:NOTDIR is directly on point - we're building an encyclopedia, not a store locator or a business directory. A table of addresses doesn't belong here. MrOllie (talk) 12:49, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

MrOllie, Okay, then all of the other information regarding specific store closures and their dates should be REMOVED. Brse2021 (talk) 12:55, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Brse2021, I agree, that information should be condensed significantly. There's no reason to dwell on every store closure individually. MrOllie (talk) 20:19, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Meters (talk) 20:35, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Excellent point, BRSE2021. I see that you yourself added then removed the table again? What's up? Also, Pokemonprime, there are several wiki pages like Pudgies chicken (I LOVE THE NAME), that list the locations, because there are very few. Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudgie%27s I don't see how it's hurting anyone to list 17 or so Kmart locations. It goes to illustrate how a once dominant retailer with 2000 + stores now has less than 1% of those remaining. That's not an insignificant fact. Also, many wikis for actors and actresses, list all the movies by that artist. Is that not, also, a simple list? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 21:07, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

I reverted it and figured that I better hold off on doing that before somebody wants to jump all over me about it and try to revoke my editing privileges. Additionally, I figured I would wait on it and talk to other users, like Pokemonprime, to explain why I believe the table should be present. Since there has no response, we'll go ahead and keep the table as it is. Again, thank you for re-adding it for me. Glad to see it on here as I do agree - It is an important piece of information that really highlights the small fraction of the company that still remains. Brse2021 (talk) 02:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Why are you posting that 10 hours after the table was removed again? This time by user:Levivich. Meters (talk) 05:03, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

This is frustrating. Everyone keeps removing the damn table. How's this then? Y'all don't want addresses? Fine! How about a table which (100% sourced) shows just how many are in each state (or territory), WITHOUT the freaking addresses and store #'s? Would that work? Just a table that shows 1 store in CA, 1 store in Michigan, etc.. Then it wouldn't be a store locator or business directory, BUT it would show the scope of the diminishing Kmart footprint. And it would be completely sourced with zero original research. Go ahead, find some complaint about that. I'm sure someone will. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 19:36, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Why does it need to be broken down by state? The total number of stores makes the point without adding cruft to the article. - MrOllie (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Why? Because that illustrates how much the footprint of this one gigantic retailer has shrunk. A company that had over 2000 stores, and was (I think) in all 50 states, as well as several territories, is now only in 6 states (and 3 of those states have 1 store each). That is not an insignificant fact. The fact that there are some stores (like Hamilton Montana) that don't have another Kmart within probably 1000 miles. A map, and/or list (which many Wiki pages use, including, for example, sports league articles, which show where teams are located, see ^[1]) would demonstrate the sparseness of locations. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 20:26, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

If it is 'not an insignificant fact' do we have a reliable source that explicitly notes this? Why not simply cite it and summarize it as they do? - MrOllie (talk) 20:29, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with MrOllie. I don't see a need a directory of the stores. The chain is virtually gone, and we don't need a memorial for each of the few remaining store, let alone information about how far apart they are. Meters (talk) 20:42, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

We don't need a memorial for each one (although that was the trend on this article for the last about 5 Years). As for information about how far they are, why the hell not? What does it Cost anyone? Why do Wikipedia pages on sports leagues have maps/tables of locations such as ^[2] or ^[3] ?

Why are there even lists/maps of defunct teams such as ^[4]? Can you imagine the uproar if I posted a list of defunct Kmart stores? I'd be tarred and feathered for posting shit that commonly occurs in places such as ^[5] and ^[6]! Again, why the double standard? Also, Ollie, what reliable source do you need to explicitly note? My point is, a chain that covered a country with 50 states, that is 3,000 miles wide, now occupies a tiny footprint maybe 1% of that size. I don't see the possible harm in just including a list, map, or mention, of how many are in each state. Even without mentioning the store addresses or numbers. Just X amount in Y state, A amount inn B state, etc.. What could possibly the harm be?

173.241.182.119 (talk) 08:39, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I ask about reliable sourcing because we're not supposed to decide what is significant ourselves. Wikipedia exists to summarize what reliable sources say about a topic. If reliable sources tend to make this point, we should too. If they don't, we should leave it out. The harm would be in ignoring Wikipedia's policies, which takes us further away from being an encyclopedia, which is what we're all supposed to be building here. If they want to see maps of business locations, readers can turn to a site which is specifically for that, there are a few out there. MrOllie (talk) 11:15, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Again, then why do wikipedia pages of sports leagues (sourced above) regularly contain maps of where the teams are located? OK, forget sports. Why do Sizzlers ^[7], Pudgies ^[8](I still laugh at that name LOL) have either lists of states operated in, for the former, or actually list each location, in the case of the latter? Why does Hardee's page have this map ^[9]? Why does this page exist here ^[10]?

I mean, why doesn't the standard you mentioned apply to the about half dozen examples I sited above? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 19:26, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Someone wanna rebut my above argument, or was I correct?

173.241.182.119 (talk) 03:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Pages like Sizzler's and Roy Rogers simply talk about the states they once operated in, they don't go into detail about individual location closures like the Kmart article currently does, and none of them have tables of remaining locations. As for the sports teams lists, sports teams, whether or not they're now defunct, are notable in their own right, and so can have lists of them, and either way it's an apples to oranges comparison. I also want to remind you, just because someone doesn't respond to you, it does not mean you are automatically right. Pokemonprime (talk) 05:13, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

It actually DOES mean I'm right, and I am. Also, it's not really an apples to oranges comparison. Why can they include a map of sports leagues' locations, but not store locations? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 03:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Because sports has a large section of media devoted to it, including specialist publications and dedicated TV channels, so nearly every aspect of every sports team, current or historical, has been covered by several reliable sources. When my default cable package includes three channels with 24 hour coverage of Kmart you'll have a valid comparison. MrOllie (talk) 12:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

How many tv channels do you have dedicate to minor league sports, or obscure ones like roller hockey? ^[11]

How many channels do you have about Pudgie's chicken? From the ^[12] article, "As of November 2018 there are only three Pudgie's Famous Chicken restaurants open in East Islip, Selden and West Islip".

Is that ^ not a list of locations? 173.241.182.119 (talk) 04:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

There is a difference between three locations mentioned in a sentence and 17 locations put in a table, though I don't know, maybe Pudgie's needs their locations removed too. Pudgie's also has a big "this may not meet notability guidelines" tag at the top of the page. Major League Roller Hockey has an excessive detail notice, and several of the pages for individual teams have notices about needing more sources. So using other poorly sourced pages to defend your actions isn't going to help you. Please also see WP:OTHERSTUFF; that is, you can't use "well other wikipedia pages..." as a defense. Pokemonprime (talk) 10:22, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I actually CAN use other Wikipedia pages as a "defense", not that I need a "defense", because I have not committed a crime. Olie just used his amount of TV channels carried by his cable company as an argument. I asked him how many channels he has dedicated to obscure sports such as roller hockey? If you're going to remove stuff like that list here, then why aren't you removing it from those other pages I cited, like Pudgie's? Why does Hardees have a map of locations here ^[13]?

Or what about Roy Rogers? Not a table but it mentions each state with a location here: ^[14]?

If I look hard enough, I could easily find 1000 examples like this. Kmart wouldn't even need a table. A simple statement (as in Roy Rogers), describing the scope of the footprint (in this case, CA, MI, MT, FL, NY, NJ, PR, USVI, Guam). 173.241.182.119 (talk) 01:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I think a sentence or map like what we have in other articles would be fine to describe the range of the store. We don't need a list of locations or the # of locations in each state, but a sentence that "as of <time>, Kmart operates stores in CA, MI, MT, FL, NY, NJ, PR, USVI, and Guam." would be fine. Tables aren't often required and can be unwieldy. Pokemonprime (talk) 10:01, 18 August 2021 (UTC) OK, even without a "table",a map is fine? Good. I don't Know how to make one on here, but I can add that sentence for now, to at least describe the current footprint of this company. 173.241.182.119 (talk) 20:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

[1] ttps://www.sb360.com/select-projects/events/sears-list/

[2] ttps://www.kmart.com/stores.html

[3] ttps://www.ktvu.com/news/soon-there-will-be-only-one-kmart-left-in-california

[4] ttps://patch.com/new-york/west-village/lower-manhattanites-mourn-closure-iconic-astor-place-kmart

[5] ttps://www.amny.com/news/the-last-kmart-closes-in-manhattan/

[6] ttps://footwearnews.com/2021/business/retail/kmart-astor-place-closing-new-york-1203158921/

[7] ttps://gothamist.com/news/kmart-unlikely-astor-place-icon-shutters-without-notice

[8] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Soccer#/media/File:Major_League_Soccer_club_locations_2021.png

[9] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League#/media/File:NHL_teams_and_conferences_map_-_2021%E2%80%9322.png

[10] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Indoor_Soccer_League_(1978%E2%80%931992)#MISL_teams

[11] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_and_relocated_National_Hockey_League_teams

[12] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_National_Football_League_franchises

[13] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_National_Basketball_Association_teams

[14] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sizzler

[15] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudgie's#History

[16] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CKE_Restaurants#/media/File:CarlsJrHardeesLocations.svg

[17] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Rogers_Restaurants#Locations

[18] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Roller_Hockey

[19] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pudgie's#History

[20] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CKE_Restaurants#/media/File:CarlsJrHardeesLocations.svg

[21] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Rogers_Restaurants#Locations

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