Talk:Kurdish tribes

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This article was nominated for deletion on 11 November 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Kurdish tribes

Kurdish tribes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Semi-protection: High level of IP vandalism. Beshogur (talk) 17:04, 7 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Faking identity of tribes

@Semsûrî Before you revert my edits, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] these are for a lot of tribes you try to Kurdify, such as Fooladvand, Baharvand, Asayer and Papi. [7] here Adinevand is refered to as Lak but in here they're considered Lor-e Koochak. This is just a ridiculous attempt of faking 5 million people's identity. I'm not talking about Laks here, but Luri tribes I mentioned. ChipsBaMast (talk) 06:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also you used this to prove beiranvand is Kurdish, but even this source says "بیرانوندها یا ساکنان چقلوندی از برجستهترین

طوایف لر ]لک[ بوده و مردمی شجاع و دلاورند." translating to "Beiranvandds or settlers of chalqundi are one of Luri [Lak] tribes and have been a brave and courageous people." Just because it referred to "Laks" in a bracket and origin of Laks in disputed, you can't fake sources like nothing.ChipsBaMast (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iranica declares many Kurdish tribes as Luri including Feyli so shouldn't be used here[8]. Secondly, if the source states that Beiranvand is "Luri [Lak]", I interpret as it being a Lak tribe (and thus Kurdish). --Semsûrî (talk) 10:48, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Excluding Iranica because you don't agree with their statement on the identity of a tribe is a big no no. Now if you had mentioned WP:UNDUE that is something else. As for your last sentence, that is WP:SYNTH. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:57, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iranica is a great source but it has a history of labelling tribes the wrong ethnicity. That's all, and we should be aware of that. I don't toss out these articles in the bin but only their ethnic labelling (especially if we have other RS diverting on this). Regarding my second statement on Beiranvand, its easy finding RS that explicitly put them as Kurds, including Dehkhoda Dictionary [9]. --Semsûrî (talk) 11:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

History of labelling tribes the wrong ethnicity? According to whom? Also, Iranica is written by individual scholars (be it Bosworth, Garsoian or Marciak), who all have their own opinions. Fair enough, but we still have to beware of WP:UNDUE. For example, if one source says x and two sources say y, that doesn't mean we should dismiss the former. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:18, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iranica sometimes publishes articles that take a minority stance, when it comes to labeling tribes, that's all. A clear example is Oberling labelling Kakavand as Lor[10] which is comical. So regarding WP:UNDUE, I agree to a degree. On tribes in this particular area, I would say it's a case by case decision. If there seems to be a genuine lack of consensus (for whatever reason) among experts on whether this or that tribe is Kurdish or Lor, then yes. Beiranvand can be one of these tribes, perhaps not Kakavand. But how should that be expressed at Kurdish tribes? --Semsûrî (talk) 12:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but that doesn't really explain how they take a 'minority stance' and how it's comical. If the identity of a tribe is disputed it shouldn't be listed here for the same reason, say, we neither list al-Farabi as a Turk nor Iranian in articles, since neither of them are a fact as it remains disputed amongst scholars. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:31, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For Beiranvand, I can support keeping it out of 'Kurdish tribes' and perhaps create a Beiranvand (tribe). Fouladvand can also be omitted per the book above. Perhaps Papi too. More importantly, I think it's a slippery slope for editors to consider a particular tribe's ethnic origins as disputed because of one or a small minority of dissenting scholars. Oberling considering Kakavand as Lor can be mentioned briefly with one sentence at Kakavand (tribe) but that's about it. I agree with what RS & UNDUE says on this. --Semsûrî (talk) 13:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If Oberling is actually in the minority then certainly. But looking at the current state of the Kakavand article, that isn't the case, unless you have other sources? One of the sources, Izady, is not even reliable. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:56, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have these:

Dehkhoda
[11]
[12] Kakavandi dialect described as Kurdish here
Minorsky He mentioned them as a Kurdish tribe in Lorestan
Fattah's 'Les dialectes Kurdes méridionaux' most likely mentions the tribe in his work on Southern Kurdish as well. Will check later. --Semsûrî (talk) 14:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

" if the source states that Beiranvand is "Luri [Lak]", I interpret as it being a Lak tribe (and thus Kurdish)" your self-interpretation of a text from a source doesn't justify you labeling tribes as an ethnicity or so. "Iranica is a great source but it has a history of labelling tribes the wrong ethnicity." according to who they label them wrong? and what's the history of them doing so? again, your interpretation of a source doesn't mean you should put them as facts and information inside articles. ChipsBaMast (talk) 11:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree [13] wasn't the best reference but Dehkhoda puts it as Kurdish so what now? --Semsûrî (talk) 12:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And yet, you ignore more than 7 sources I put there and only consider yours to be valid and reliable. Don't you think it's obvious that you have purposeful and bigoted edits at this point? Also you dodged answering me WHY and HOW Iranica puts tribes as wrong ethnicity and what's the justification that you think it's wrong? This is just an insult to identity, culture and history of Lur people.ChipsBaMast (talk) 09:48, 1 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ICANTHEARYOU... ChipsBaMast (talk) 09:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Simoqî" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Simoqî and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 6#Simoqî until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 16:41, 6 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

marzani tribe

why you keep deleting marzani tribe ?! 💀 2001:1C00:F37:1A00:5434:DA57:9B9A:97 (talk) 23:17, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting adding “Ghawara” tribe to list of Sulaymaniyah tribes

Ghawara tribe is one of the oldest tribe in the Sulaymaniyah region. Based on this source even Ghawara had a province. please add Ghawara tribe to the list. https://ckb.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D9%82%DB%95%D8%B2%D8%A7%DB%8C_%D8%B3%D9%84%DB%8E%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C Shexghawara (talk) 22:31, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You need to add a reference and Kurdish Wikipedia cannot be used as a reference. Semsûrî (talk) 23:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Duski page

I would like to add a detailed page of the Duski tribe. I am from Duhok and originally hail from the Duski tribe paternally. It will mostly detail the various clans within the tribe and its history. I have reliable sources to back up any claims I make and therefore wish that the admins may give me editing access. Slav bo bira u xweshket min! SolisKay (talk) 00:54, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]