Talk:Lev Mekhlis

This should be rewritten from scratch

As it stands the article is complete junk... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.239.58 (talk) 19:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The article in its current state is a useful starting point. I agree that it could be much improved by research using books. I have made a few minor fixes, of which the most important is putting the infobox in a current template, adding some pictures in commons used on the Russian wikipedia article, and adding the books referenced on Russian wikipedia. I suspect that most of the content of this article was added from translation of Russian wikipedia.--Toddy1 (talk) 10:57, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Neutrality of the article

Please could someone say what they think is non-neutral in this start article?--Toddy1 (talk) 15:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Mekhlis was a mass murderer and a psychopath of the Beria Class. For relevant informations and references you should read Simon Sebag Montefiore's biography of Stalin. This article is just a translation of a soviet encyclopedia and totally scandalous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.178.191.156 (talk) 09:11, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Article consentrates on military matters and is quite correct. It would be good to improve it as mentioned above but article is not bias or incorrect. Kalle Bemböle (talk) 19:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC) The article is not written in recognizable English. It is the most (in fact, the only) Wikipedia article I have read that is a garbled translation. It also lacks the ring of truth, and it makes me question the usefulness of Wikipedia. I agree with the comment above that Mekhlis was "a psychopath of the Beria Class." Readers of Wikipedia deserve better than this pseudo-article. -- Edward Cone — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.5.102 (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Quote

I think that including the entire Stalin quote, word for word, is a case of WP:UNDUE. Could we perhaps just summarize the key points of that quote instead? 069952497a (U-T-C-E) 21:53, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Why do you think it is given undue weight? Don't you think that Stalin's opinion of Mekhlis's activities is important? Stalin was in a very good position to judge.--Toddy1 (talk) 22:30, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It is important, but that's only one telegram in response to one incident. Perhaps we could just include a summary of what Stalin thinks, instead of having the entire quote which is quite lengthy and at times repetitive. 069952497a (U-T-C-E) 23:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

It would be better if we had information on what Stalin thought of Mekhlis's actions at other times, as well as this quotation. It also worth adding that Mekhlis was demoted as a result of the failure in the Crimea - Stalin's remarks help readers in understanding the failure and why Mekhlis's actions were a contributing factor to the failure.

If you consider other key people whose actions have led to failure - such as the top people at the American company Enron or the British company RBS, objective criticism of the actions that led to failure by someone in a position to judge would not be dismissed as "just one incident". --Toddy1 (talk) 07:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

We don't need both the entire quotation and a summary of Stalin's thoughts; the entire quote could be shortened to just "Stalin believed that Mekhlis was idling on the Crimean Front, and shirking his responsibility for the defeat as a member of the Stavka". 069952497a (U-T-C-E) 15:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Imagine if we summarised an informed criticism of Fred Goodwin's role in RBS's near-collapse in the same way. It would not be at all useful.--Toddy1 (talk) 16:34, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Winter War

During Winter War 1939-40 Mekhlis was assingned to be presentative of Stavka in 9th Army which was facing major difficulties in Suomussalmi region. During this time he's convoy was ambushed by Finns and he narrowly escaped inside a tank. Is this matter relevant to the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kalle Bemböle (talk • contribs) 08:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, very much so. Do you have a source for this? If so, please add it to the article. At the moment the article is much too short, so if you can add detail on this incident it would be much appreciated.--Toddy1 (talk) 09:07, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Stroke

Mekhlis seems to have a stroke in the December of 1949 and a heart attack some time later. It is not clear which actually felled him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.242.108 (talk) 12:34, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Nationality

Toddy1 regarding listing "Jew" as "Nationality" and this diff[1], the primary English language meaning of Nationality is the nation the person is connected to. Regardless of any translation issues or Soviet Census forms, the English language Nationality field should represent Nation, not religion. Alsee (talk) 15:14, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

You should read Race and ethnicity in censuses. -- Toddy1 (talk) 15:29, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Some countries may do census by religion and/or ethnicity, but the typical international reader has little interest in the internal details of national census. Nationality is what nation someone is connected to, with religion being an independent characteristic. You should read the Village Pump Policy discussion where there is firm agreement that Religion does not belong in the Nationality field. Alsee (talk) 15:38, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Ping to Collect as an involved editor. Toddy1 do not revert war an article when you know multiple editors dispute your edit, when you know there is an open discussion on the article talk page, and when you have been notified that many editors at Village Pump (policy) are in agreement on the underlying issue. I strongly suggest you self-revert your most recent revert[2] and deal with the issue on Talk. Furthermore I note that your revert edit summary offers exactly zero explanation for the revert. That is unhelpful in resolving anything. Two or more editors can infinitely revert-without-explanation and without resolution. See WP:Edit_warring#How_experienced_editors_avoid_becoming_involved_in_edit_wars. Alsee (talk) 05:27, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

Lev Mekhlis is a historical figure who lived in a multi-national, multi-racial empire. Such empires were common in his time. Not only did Russia have an empire, but so did Britain, France, Holland, Belgium, Italy, Japan and China. People who lived in the British Empire are not necessarily categorised as British. I note from your posting on Village Pump that you disagree with how nationalities are/were categorised in the Russian Empire/USSR. Well tough luck, that is how it was and still is in post-Soviet countries. Wikipedia is not a place to correct this. You also seem a bit confused. Nationality, citizenship, language, and religion are considered to be different characteristics in post-Soviet countries. Maybe this document on the 2001 Ukrainian census will help you understand about the first three of these.-- Toddy1 (talk) 17:52, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, "Jew" and "Jewish" are not used as "Nationality." If you wish to demur, go the the discussions thereon, but until then kindly allow the existing policies to be invoked. Collect (talk) 18:02, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

But in the USSR during Mekhlis' lifetime, his nationality was defined as Jew.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:08, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Please can you cite a policy that defends your erasure of Meklis' nationality. A village pump discussion is not a policy.-- Toddy1 (talk) 06:18, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

"Jewish" is a "religion" and possibly an "ethnicity". No one at WP:BLP/N, at discussions regarding infoboxes, or at Village Pump has so far seriously tried to argue otherwise, and the discussions about religion and ethnicity at WP:BLP and regarding use of "religion" and "ethnicity" over an extensive period of time have all ended up requiring "self affirmation" for such. If you rally wish to have a "request for comment" (WP:RFC) here, please certainly feel free to do so. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:11, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

We erased it because blank is considered an improvement over incorrect, and because neither of us took the time to determine a correct nationality. I have now looked over the biography and replaced it with Nationality: Soviet / Ukrainian. I assume you know more about this biography than I do, and I invite you to revise that if appropriate. Nationality should be one or more countries, with the Soviet Union being a commonly accepted option/clarification. Alsee (talk) 09:45, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Toddy1, your latest revert with edit summary "completely untrue" doesn't tell me why or what you disagree with. I know nothing about Lev_Mekhli except what's in the article. The article is in Categories Soviet_Jews and Ukrainian_Jews, so I presume Soviet and Ukrainian are correct? Do you want to remove Soviet? Remove Ukrainian? Add Russian? Something else? Or are you still insisting that religion belongs in the English Wikipedia Nationality field? In biographies related to the British Empire I see people with Indian in the nationality field and Hindu in the religion field, and others with Irish in the nationality field and Catholic in the religion field. Hindu Christian and Jew do not go into Nationality. Alsee (talk) 07:20, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you possess the ability to read anything that you did not write? if yes, please read the talk page of this article. Maybe it would be best if you did not edit articles about people you know nothing about? Alternatively, you could buy some books and learn about the subjects of articles before you edit the articles.

The state he lived in, defined his nationality as Jew. This has got nothing to do with religion. I would assume that as an important party official in Stalin's USSR, his religion was atheism. Any claim that he really did believe in God would need really good sources (Wikipedia policy is that exceptional claims require exceptional sources).

People who lived in the British Empire, whose nationality was defined by the state as Indian or Irish or Scottish or Canadian tend to have their nationality described in the nationality field in those terms, and not as British (even though they lived in the British Empire). People in the USSR were just as much valid human beings as people in the British Empire. Please treat people from the USSR with as much respect as people from the British Empire.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:39, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

I understood what you said. However I reject the idea that EnWiki Nationality field is supposed to contain arbitrary internal-census labels. If Candyland does a census and labels someone bald, unicorn, or dumbass, we are not going to put bald unicorn or dumbass in our Nationality field.

Wikipedia operates according to consensus. That includes the meaning and usage of the Nationality field. You have seen the village pump discussion. You must surely have noticed the clear consensus that "Jew" does not fall within the intended or acceptable meaning of "Nationality" on English Wikipedia. If necessary we can go through a formal consensus process to end this. Is it really necessary? Do you have a reasonable belief that consensus is going to go in your favor? Alsee (talk) 10:16, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I had mistakenly read your earlier comment as meaning that you had not read or understood what had been written earlier. I am sorry for being so aggressive.

Can I suggest a compromise. I do not mind if you add his citizenship (USSR) to the nationality field. Citizenship and nationality were not the same thing in the USSR - but it is arguable that the designers of the inbox template meant citizenship when they wrote "nationality".

Regarding a person's nationality (as opposed to citizenship), my belief is that if they came from the Ukrainian SSR, and self-identify as Ukrainian, then they should be listed as of Ukrainian nationality (irrespective of their ethnicity or religion). Nationality is not necessarily the same as ethnicity. The USSR had significant numbers of ethnic Slavs, who by religion were Jews, and by nationality Russians. Modern Russia and Ukraine have ethnic Jews, who are Orthodox Christians, and have a variety of nationalities such as Karaite.-- Toddy1 (talk) 19:10, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Have you apprised yourself of the opinions expressed at Template talk:Infobox regarding religion, ethnicity and nationality? Collect (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Toddy1 if I understood you correctly, I think you suggested Nationality = USSR/Ukrainian? I have made that edit. Alsee (talk) 15:19, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• Mehlis.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:36, 21 November 2019 (UTC)