Talk:Lionel de Jersey Harvard

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Descendents still living?[edit]

Sources indiciate that Peter John de Jersey Harvard was alive as of 1968, with two children. I would be most happy to hear from any descendents still living, with an eye to publishing (elsewhere) updated family information (to the extent members of the family find that desirable), and eventual use in this article. EEng (talk) 16:19, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More sources[edit]

The grammar school changed name in 1896 to St Olave's and St Saviour's Grammar School for Boys which would have been the name when Lionel attended. It was always just referred to as St Olave's. The girls' school was named St Saviour's and St Olave's Grammar School for Girls again just referred to as St Saviour's. (attended this one!)-- Iztwoz (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You attended? How perfect. Are you intending to come to America to enroll at Harvard?
Seriously, I'm so glad you've joined the conversation. I'm tied up right now but what I'd like to do is check the sources, which seem to be confused on this point, and together we can work out how to treat this in the article -- maybe an explanatory footnote. BTW, at 12:01AM UTC tonight (i.e. Tuesday morning) this will be a "Did You Know?" [1]. EEng (talk) 21:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • tablet where?
  • another confusing tablet/memorial ref
  • graves registry images
  • This source says Peter John de J H was in a Japanese prison camp in WW2. Another source says he was invited to attend H but declined, preferring an English degree
  • "Living Harvards and Their Family Records" Harvard Graduates' Magazine June, 1910
  • According to [2] May (Barker) Harvard died 1944
  • Grenadiers, v. 3
  • Crimson April 1, 1925 [3] re naming of Lionel Hall; somewhat different retelling of send-my-sons-to-Harvard story; intent to send John Peter to Harvard.

Loose ends[edit]

  • Subject's dad's name: clearly T. Mawson Harvard (see gravestone) but OASIS and some sources give J. Mawson Harvard
  • Peter John's birthdate
  • Whether the descent is from a brother or a 2nd cousin of JH
  • Whether Harvard waived tuition and benefactors only paid fees
  • Who exactly is buried in family plot? [4] -- Older brother John died in childhood -- how to source this
  • Circumstances of Lionel Hall and scholarship/fellowship
  • HOLLIS lists books annotated by subject, or given in memory of subject
  • Some sources call it a "studentship" not "scholarship"
  • There was a second "Harvard" who attended Harvard, and there's reason to believe that's all there've been, but we'll need a secondary source for that final point.

EEng (talk) 15:10, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Son's name[edit]

The name of Lionel's son is John Peter De Jersey Harvard (not Peter John ...). This is confirmed by the record of his commission as an officer in The London Gazette: 11 July 1939 Issue:34644 Page:4753 "John Peter de Jersey HARVARD (late Cadet Serjt., Leys Sch. Contgt., Jun. Div., O.T.C.)."

Also the register of births, marriages and deaths, (accessed through http://www.freebmd.org.uk/) records the birth of "Harvard, John P De J" (mother's maiden name Barker) in Bromley in the last quarter of 1916 and his marriage in 1938.

Peter Harvard served in the Royal Artillery, finally retiring from the Reserves in 1966. His FEPoW liberation questionnaire is here: http://www.cofepow.org.uk/lq.images/Hartigan%20-%20Hazzard/Harvard,%20John%20Peter%20De%20Jersey.jpg Nedrutland (talk) 12:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You and I must be telepathically connected, because very late yesterday I was just beginning to realize that. What seems to be going on is that (a) there's a tradition in this line of naming the first-born son John (which leads to genealogical confusion) and (b) because of this confusion there's another tradition of calling the sons by their middle name, or some other nickname, which leads to even more confusion. We're now in a classic WP conflict between what we know to be true and what the sources say -- most or all of the sources call the son "Peter" or "Peter John", and of course that's what we're supposed to go on -- WP:Verifiability, not truth and all that. In the longer term I can probably arrange to have a correction published in an RS, but that will take some time. The best we can do for now is "ambiguate" the article by either just removing the name -- His son was a guest ... or maybe some distancing quote marks -- His son "Peter" Harvard was a guest .... What do you think we should do?
I'm glad you spoke up. I have a feeling you could be helpful in developing the article further. Can we stay in touch here? EEng (talk) 13:24, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I see now you've already changed the name to Peter Harvard and that helps -- or should we make it "Peter" Harvard to hint it's not his full name? EEng (talk) 13:54, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going through your edits, and again thank you very much for all this close attention. In some cases, though, there are details we'll need to attend to:
  • Full name, and birth/death dates of "older" brother (died in infancy): I know about him from this [5], but headstones are primary sources and it's borderline at best to cite them. As mentioned above the solution will be to get this info into a secondary source, which we can then cite here. (I've left the earlier cites in, but tagged [better source needed] to remind us they don't cover all the info now there.) In the meantime, where did you find the middle name Eric?
  • Promotion just before death: Howe (p.203) says "His commission as Captain, though dated before March 30, had not actually been granted before his death." What that mean, exactly? The family memorial stone (linked above on this page somewhere) styles him "Capt." but the Army paperwork I've seen for his burial in France says Lt., as I recall. So was he a captain, or not? How should the article handle this?
  • I'm not sure whether the lewishamwarmemorials website can be considered an RS -- I'm not saying it's not, I'm just not sure (haven't really looked into it). Is it an official site of some recognized authority?
Again, I'm glad someone else is taking an interest in the article, and I hope we can work together to make it as good as possible. EEng (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The family tradition of formally giving a child the first name John but calling him by a different name continues
  • The London Gazette is an official public record and does not make mistakes (or, more precisely if it does, they are swiftly and officially corrected). If it is there, it is the recognised official government version etc. Therefore I would recommend we correct to "John Peter" with a note that others (wrongly) give "Peter John". Further mentions of "J. Peter de J." here; http://www.newmp.org.uk/detail.php?contentId=10980
  • "John Eric de J" is given on the Harvard family gravestone and confirmed by a search of FreeBMD
  • Rank; Even the CWGC are uncertain on this http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/284804/HARVARD,%20LIONEL%20De%20JERSEY The stone has captain but one of the documents there, the Grave Registration Report, has lieutenant. I suspect he was acting as captain (suggested by his commanding a company) but not formally promoted. If he had been promoted (even as a temporary capt.), it would be recorded in the London Gazette (even posthumously) and I do not find it so would leave his rank as lieutenant.
Nedrutland (talk) 08:57, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is brilliant. I have to run off just now, but is it your understanding that the person you linked above is the son of John Peter, son of Lionel? Sounds kind of biblical, doesn't it?

I'd like to email you. Would that be OK? EEng (talk) 15:46, 4 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please do email me; I have another 'gobbet' for you. Nedrutland (talk) 08:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The New York John Harvard[edit]

  • [6] Apparently mentions the 1960s J.H. EEng 17:18, 16 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Kenneth[edit]

Kenneth O'Gorman Harvard was commissioned 12 August 1915 in the "Green Howards" Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment).

The London Gazette, Publication date: 31 August 1915 Supplement: 29282 Page: 8724 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29282/supplement/8724
"Alexandra, Princess of Wales's Own (Yorkshire Regiment)
The undermentioned Cadets, from the University of London Contingent, Senior Division, Officers Training Corps, to be Second Lieutenants. Dated 12th August, 1915: —
Kenneth O'Gorman Harvard".

Possibly he was transferred from the Infantry to the Royal Engineers, then back to the Infantry (the Grenadiers Guards) in a few months but it seems unlikely; is there a citation?

He is buried in Artillery Wood Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery. http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/101012/HARVARD,%20KENNETH%20O'GORMAN

"He had planned to attend Harvard College ... but with the outbreak of war he began training for the Army." This again needs a source. He was a student at the City and Guilds College (University of London Officers Training Corps Roll of War Service (1921) p.28 https://archive.org/stream/rollofwarservice00grea/rollofwarservice00grea_djvu.txt) and was commissioned in August 1915 from the University of London OTC. Nedrutland (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nedrutland, I defer to you completely on the military-history aspects, and I really appreciate your attention because, as you know, I have a special affection for this topic. Listen, I'd like to email you again. Shall I use the address I have, or the Email this user link? EEng 01:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
EEng Please do email (same address as before). (I might have a 'gobbet'!) Nedrutland (talk) 07:29, 18 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Cousin?[edit]

  • Mentions (right col) a cousin killed in WW1 [7]. EEng 04:09, 9 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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