Talk:List of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL

Untitled

Is there a place for "other notable after the siren kicks?" I am, of course, specifically referring to Stephen Kernahan's miss in the 1993 Rd 2 draw between Essendon and Carlton. Aspirex (talk) 11:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I think we should definitely have a section of missed kicks after the siren, so kicks where the player had a chance to win or draw the game but kicked a behind or in the case of a draw missed the lot like Kernahan. From memory Port Adelaide's Daniel Motlop had a goal to win but missed during a game in 2006 so that could be included. So yeah I think that warrants a section. Cheers Crickettragic (talk) 06:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

There is also the following from the Malcolm Blight page: "Another infamous moment was against Hawthorn, when he kicked a behind to draw the teams even at the siren, but was then offered another kick for an infringement, whereby a goal would win the match. Blight kicked the ball out on the full, giving Hawthorn the win." Perry Middlemiss (talk) 06:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Jack Riewoldt

Should Jack Riewoldt's kick against St Kilda be included? I know technically he didn't miss becuase he didn't make the distance but it was still a shot on goal. Jonesy (talk) 09:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I take a miss as including not making the distance. I say add it in. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 01:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Will get around to it tonight - thanks for the tip. Jonesy (talk) 04:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Steven Baker

I don't think that his behind to tie the scores against Fremantle in 2006 should be included as the AFL ruled that the match had ended, therefore, the kick began after the siren, and the score was not registered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Morstar (talk • contribs) 13:29, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still an "after the siren kick" of interest. If Baker had not drawn the game with his score, then the whole controversy about whether the siren had sounded or not probably wouldn't have occurred as Freemantle would have won anyway. I think the note appended to the entry takes care of this. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

wot about buddy franklins goal to win against adelaide in the final that should go in there —Preceding unsigned comment added by Desperadonige (talk • contribs) 04:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Was about three seconds remaining on the clock after Franklin kicked the goal. The siren didn't sound until after the centre bounce. Jevansen (talk) 03:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan Brown - Goal to draw

An entry has been included in the "Goal to draw" table stating that Jonanthan Brown of the Brisbane Lions scored a goal after the siren to draw the Round 20, 2007 game against the Sydney Swans.

An examination of the incident (http://www.vtap.com/video/Jonathan+Brown+last+second+.../CL0084937650_39a27b998_Q0wwMjA4ODU5NDk1fmluOjI) shows that the kick is taken 8 seconds before the siren, with the goal crossing the line some 4 seconds later. So this incident doesn't qualify. Close but... --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 10:27, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for removing it. That would have to be at least the fifth time that someone has tried to add it to the list. Jevansen (talk) 11:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Having the actual video clip of the mark and kick certainly helps. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 22:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

change of title?

Oughtn't the title be "After-the-siren kicks...", as the phrase is a compound modifier? Or, perhaps less awkwardly, "Kicks after the siren..."? --76.121.3.11 (talk) 04:56, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The title should be changed to something more "appropriate". Chicken-7 ^talk 07:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

No arguments from me. You will need to create an account though if you want to move the page. Jevansen (talk) 12:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I was more suggesting it as something an already registered user might want to do :) --76.121.3.11 (talk) 19:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Hickey Goal to Win - 1944?

I refer to entry 5 in the "Goal to Win" table - Hickey for Footscray over Carlton in 1944. This game took place on 2nd September 1944 with the final score being Fo 12.17 (89) - Ca 13.10 (88).

However, research indicates it is actually a point to win, rather than a goal. According to "The Argus" of 04.09.1944: "With less than a minute left Ryan levelled the scores with a behind, and, pressing on the attack, the ball went to Hickey, who marked just before the bell rang. With people swarming on to the ground his 45 to 50 yards punt kick went off the hands of Chitty for a behind. There was a tense moment while the goal umpire conferred with the field umpire, and the excitement was intense when one flag was raised." (See http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11359509)

If there are no objections it's my intention to move this entry to the correct table. --Perry Middlemiss (talk) 23:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Go for it! Can't find a more reliable source than that. Jevansen (talk) 05:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Shots on the run do not belong

This should be limited to set-shots taken after the siren. Cases where the umpire has failed to hear the siren and a winning goal has been scored afterwards, or where a kick is taken on the run as the siren goes and there is contention to whether or not it was kicked in time, are not comparable to the normal drama of a set-shot after the siren, and shouldn't be included in the list.

Aspirex (talk) 11:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Rename II

After some consideration, I think this article should be renamed. The article isn't so much about KICKS after the siren as SCORING after the siren, from set shots, and more importantly, game-deciding scoring from set shots. I'm not sure I have a good suggestion for what the name should be, though - at least without it becoming incredibly long-winded. I just think that the title, while perhaps colloquially correct in Australian English sporting parlance, would be better if it was clearer. Thoughts? Metao (talk) 05:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Metao. What about List of games decided after the siren in Australian rules football? Jevansen (talk) 08:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Technically you are right, but the common description of the events in this list is "kick after the siren" (68,000 items), not "Scores after the siren" (3560) or "games decided after the siren" (4). And to be pedantic, unless there is a handball in progress as the siren sounds, only kicks would ever occur after the siren. The list includes wins and misses, so you can't really say the results were all decided after the siren. The-Pope (talk) 15:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

True, only kicks can occur after the siren. And it's also true that, although this article is very listcrufty, it's not, in fact, a "List". And, as you say, missed opportunities are included. There is the corner case of how to deal with a tie-breaking (or tie-causing) handball, released before the siren, and going through the goals after the siren, thus becoming a behind. But since there don't appear to be any of those yet, perhaps we can wait on a rename until there is. Metao (talk) 07:01, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Merit of other leagues on this page

I feel like it is difficult enough as it is to have a complete list of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL, let alone include other leagues from around the country. I just discovered an instance from 1939 today that was never before seen on this page, therefore I feel as if the lists themselves should be restricted to VFL/AFL, and the most notable events outside the professional league could be perhaps mentioned through prose in a trivia section (or words to that effect).

Thoughts? Gibbsy^spin 07:04, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Nice work finding those earlier one, that's some good "troving". Sure there are plenty more. Before your edits exactly 50% of the 38 VFL/AFL players who have kicked a goal after the siren were from the AFL era, so I am as bemused as you when read anyone presenting the number as a complete total, there's surely a hint in the dates.

In terms of this article, I'm a bit divided over what to do. I don't think having the other listings does any harm, as long as they are reliably sourced, although it could maybe do with a more restrictive criteria. There's also the danger that in coming years we will have a recentism problem, when every new after the siren goal in Victorian country football is included, with little possibility that instances from earlier in history are going to be able to be added due to sourcing not being available. Then there's the debate of whether the SANFL and WAFL (from before the VFL's expansion) should be given equal footing with the VFL/AFL. If you argue yes then in an article entitled "Kicks after the siren in Australian rules football" they should probably have their own lists, rather than be selectively added into prose or elsewhere (not that we're spoilt for choice with entries from those two leagues in the current article). Would be good to hear other people's opinions. Jevansen (talk) 11:26, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

I think sourcing is the key. It's going to take a lot of work to just get the VFL/AFL lists fully complete with proper referencing, and not just copyright violating You Tube video - unless the AFL Season Guide has a list. The opening paragraph talks about the kicks "entering folklore". Maybe that could be a guide for the other leagues - it needs to be truely notable with significant coverage. Or renaming to VFL/AFL is another option. The-Pope (talk) 12:26, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2017

To update Missed opportunities with Tom Hawkins behind to draw the game against GWS Giants 2017

Tom Hawkins Geelong Cats GWS Giants 2017 68-68 Behind

Sources: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/geelong/harry-taylor-taking-positives-out-of-geelongs-draw-with-gws-despite-tom-hawkins-after-siren-miss/news-story/ee0a0bd88170b5f3829b14e7bb0bd4cf https://thewest.com.au/sport/afl/tom-hawkins-kicks-a-point-on-the-siren-as-gws-and-geelong-fight-out-a-thrilling-draw-ng-b88524556z http://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/2017-07-05/hawkins-no-worries-with-whistle 217.138.6.194 (talk) 09:57, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Not required. It is already listed in the behind to draw section.The-Pope (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

SANFL

A most interesting episode of the umpire not hearing the bell occurred in the SANFL first semi-final in 1945. As a child, I remember asking my father if an umpiring mistake ever changed the result of a grand final. He said that in the 1945 1st semi-final, the umpire didn't hear the bell and West Torrens kicked a goal after the siren, winning the game. West Torrens then won the preliminary & grand finals and thus the premiership. Years later I found out that Torrens actually won by 6 points so I concluded that my father's recollection wasn't entirely accurate. Nonetheless, now that newspapers are online, it can be confirmed that Torrens were able to kick a goal after the siren and win a game that otherwise would have been drawn because the umpire did not hear the bell. I think it's a sufficiently interesting story that it deserves its own special entry. I'll write it tomorrow if no one objects.Graemem56 (talk) 12:57, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Did you ever end up writing about it? I think it would fit in here: AFL siren controversy#Similar incidents Electricmaster (talk) 10:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Should season years be linked?

For instance, should 1966 link like this: 1966?

Specifically, I'm talking about the years in the table. Electricmaster (talk) 10:00, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

'No kick'? Surely not

I've just seen that Noah Cumberland's 2022 escapades of playing on before the siren went has been listed as a 'missed opportunity'. I think that's a very generous application of the term. There are many moments where the siren has gone just before a player was able to kick for goal in open play, or take a mark, or whatever. I can't see this circumstance being classified as a genuine missed opportunity (if it is, then where is Courtenay Dempsey's similar effort circa 2011?), and am advocating for its removal. Gibbsy^spin 00:30, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Could Cumberland and Dempsey maybe go under "Miscellaneous" or a separate section for playing on after the siren. Agree they certainly shouldn't be listed amongst the missed opportunities. Jevansen (talk) 01:22, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 9 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Participants widely agreed that the page should be titled to align with its scope, but a detailed discussion was necessary to determine what the ideal page scope should be. The strongest consensus was to remove local leagues from the page. The question of state leagues proved more divisive, but I ultimately see a consensus to omit state leagues as well: some participants highlighted that sources treated "kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL" as a unitary topic worthy of discussion, and that they did not do so for state leagues. Thus, it was demonstrated that WP:NLIST supported limiting the scope to kicks in the VFL/AFL. There was more support for including the AFL Women's on the page, but to my eye, the WP:NLIST argument appears to fall against them as well.

Another area of discussion was whether a title such as "List of kicks after the final siren..." or "List of games decided by kicks after the siren..." would provide a meaningful improvement in clarity or specificity. There were a few proposals along these lines, but no individual proposal appeared to attract a significant support base; additionally, supporters of the original proposal identified their style as less wordy, and as still able to clarify any confusion in the lead. Thus, I see a consensus to stick with the straightforward "List of kicks after the siren..." rather than adopt more detailed language.

When considering both of the above paragraphs, my read of the discussion is that it resulted in a consensus to adopt the originally proposed title, "List of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL". (closed by non-admin page mover) ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

---

Kicks after the siren in Australian rules football → List of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL – It's been 7 years since I last suggested modifying this page to include only instances occurring in the VFL/AFL. I now think it's time to raise the point again, and push it more strongly. I'd love to get this article up to a 'good' standard or even somewhere near a featured list, but such a mission is impossible if the scope remains as it is currently. Think about it – right now the page purports to include every single instance from every single game played in the sport. It simply isn't feasible, and I would argue that apart from exceptional circumstances (grand finals, pitch invasions etc.), that any of these instances that occurred outside of the VFL/AFL aren't even making WP:EVENT (except for those in the AFLW, which is worthy of its own page and shouldn't be lumped in with the VFL/AFL).

I propose removing all instances outside the VFL/AFL, moving the page name to reflect this change in scope (and the fact that the page is list-based), and improving the page up to the standard of a similar page such as List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick. Gibbsy^spin 11:30, 9 August 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 12:53, 16 August 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Oppose - AFLW is not worthy of its own page at this point with only 3 examples

I soft support keeping this page how it is but if we want to improve it then I can understand removing example from lower-level competitions

The VFA/VFL, SANFL and WAFL examples should absolutely stay as they're pretty well documented Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 01:31, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment - I just think if we're ever going to get to a level of completeness then the line needs to be drawn somewhere. If that line becomes first-class Australian rules football competitions then I wouldn't be opposed to that, but I would have VFA examples from the 1940s/1950s on a greater level of importance than SANFL examples from the 2010s, yet such a delineation wouldn't support that.

Having the entire sport as the scope for this page is just much too broad, in my opinion. I take on board your suggestion re: AFLW and offer up the proposal that perhaps we could style this page in the manner of List of Indigenous Australian VFL/AFL and AFL Women's players until the latter has enough worth to be split out.

Put aside the AFLW scenario for now. And please don't take this as being shirty, because I'm just curious. Is your opposition to changing the scope of this page due to your opinion that the state-league examples are notable enough? How well do you think we would be able to improve the page while still keeping in state leagues (and searching for the no-doubt myriad instances that aren't currently documented here?) Cheers, Gibbsy^spin 02:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the state leagues are notable, yes. Seems pretty obvious that SANFL is the most covered of the three in terms of kicks after the siren info, but with a bit of research and putting it in 5 clear sections (excl. the sub-sections that exist now) being VFL/AFL, AFLW, VFL/VFA, SANFL and WAFL - the page will be cleaned up Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 03:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment: I agree with the comments above about the AFLW. Ideally it will eventually have its own page, but that's a fair way in the future at this point. I also agree that we should limit the scope to the VFL/AFL (and AFLW) as it would give the page a clearer scope and cut out many examples which are, frankly, not very notable.

However, I would suggest a reword of the title. It will not be a list of all kicks after the siren in league history, but instead only those which had an opportunity to decide the result. As such, I think a preferable title would be "List of games decided by kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL and AFL Women's".

And two further suggestions I am less certain about: first, ideally I think we should include in the title that they are kicks after the final siren, as we don't care for the countless kicks taken after the other three sirens. However, I am aware that my proposed title is quite wordy as is, and that the page has managed by allowing readers to make the inference that it's the final siren for quite a while. Second, I think the article's scope should include situations like Courtenay Dempsey's play on. I understand that, as the title states "kicks," it currently should not be included, but I believe it's just as notable an instance as any other missed opportunity. We could include Dempsey's and similar instances if we changed the name to "List of games decided after the (final) siren in the VFL/AFL and AFL Women's," but I'm not sure if its meaning is entirely clear. Thoughts on these options? Jjamesryan (talk | contribs) 07:07, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment - disagree with only having VFL/AFL and AFLW as I've stated above but I do support more of a clarification in the title as yeah, you can feasibly consider kicks after the first/second/third quarter siren as part of this article (even though they obviously shouldn't)

Courtenay Dempsey is interesting - we do have the Noah Cumberland non-kick in this article last time I checked so I can see it being included (but you can make the argument Cumberland shouldn't be here either) Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 07:20, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we necessarily need to clarify the title in this way – if you refer to a "kick after the siren" it's inferred you're talking about a kick to win or tie the game, not a kick to cut the lead to 42 at the half-time break. That decisiveness is what makes them remarkable and worthy of listing in the first place. Still, it should be made clear by the lead. – Teratix ₵ 00:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't agree with the inclusions of either Dempsey or Cumberland in the list – those situations are more interesting trivia than genuine 'missed opportunities'. While they were close, yes, in both circumstances the ball was simply in play/possession when the final siren blew, as is the case in nearly every match. Neither player lined up for a set shot at any point. But this is a little bit off-topic to the point of the RM anyway. Gibbsy^spin 03:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Limit list to VFL/AFL only per the guidelines on list notability, which require the topics of stand-alone lists to have been discussed as a "group or set". Only VFL/AFL kicks have been discussed in this way ([1], [2]). Although there are many individual reports of kicking a goal after the siren in other leagues, they have not been discussed as a group in the same way the VFL/AFL kicks have. To clarify, this would exclude AFL Women's kicks, which have not yet received this sort of coverage.

Note I don't think we need to change the title of the article necessarily – we can do something similar to last-minute goal, where the concept is introduced as applying to all competitions, but the list is more strictly defined. – Teratix ₵ 19:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

I think we are in agreement here @Teratix. Hopefully we're at enough of a consensus unless anyone else has any comments? Gibbsy^spin 03:29, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment - Hope I'm not breaking an unwritten Wikipedia rule by adding another comment but I'd support removing all the 'Other leagues' section now that VFA/VFL has been cleaned up and is fully cited

We don't need 'Local Footy League Division 12 Reserves' here but SANFL + VFA/VFL are significant leagues that are worth inclusion

Plus it keeps the article name less wordy than "Kicks after the siren in VFL/AFL and AFL Women's" as it seems we're also keeping the AFLW short section as well Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 03:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

On the significance of state leagues: I'm seeing some sources that mention individual kicks after the siren in, say, the SANFL, as part of match reports and so on. What I'm not seeing are sources that actually discuss the topic of "kicks after the siren in the SANFL" (or the VFA, or the WAFL, etc.) – Teratix ₵ 22:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

First - agree with your other comment it’s too early to close this discussion

I get what you’re saying about sources discussing them but I think there would be, take into account notable things like Jacob Bauer with two in one year (never happened before in the VFL/AFL) or all the AFL-listed players on reserves sides who may get involved, or the Richmond miss in the 2017 VFL grand final - these are all notable in some way

I think the article won’t be harmed if you’ve got those sections at the bottom, especially when VFL/AFL and AFLW are already the most prominent at the front of the article

No one’s looking for ‘random local league’ though, and so I support removing that Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 01:20, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

If we want to talk about it in terms of harm to the article, including state leagues makes it extremely difficult to have a comprehensive list – sources just don't seem to document VFA/L, WAFL or SANFL kicks after the siren as a set. How are we to know when we've included all the qualifying kicks? – Teratix ₵ 04:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I think we would want a few more people to weigh in before this closes, so far we've got one for VFL/AFL only; one for VFL/AFL and AFLW; one for VFL/AFL only but separate AFLW; and one for VFL/AFL, AFLW, and the major state leagues. Plus I'm not sure we're clear on what the title actually ought to be: again, we've got one for keeping it as is, one for "List of games decided by kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL", one for "List of games decided by kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL and AFL Women's", and I'm not sure what title Totally wants exactly. – Teratix ₵ 22:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

We are pretty close to a majority consensus on limiting it to just VFL/AFL; I am not fussed one way or the other whether we include AFLW or not (I just didn't want to be dismissive). I am for the title of List of games decided by kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL (obviously a little different from the original proposal, but more technically correct). Gibbsy^spin 03:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I mean, if we want to get technical about it, none of the "missed opportunities" decided their respective game (the result would have been the same either way), so we'd be making the title longer while actually making it less accurate. – Teratix ₵ 04:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

'''Oppose''' - Remove local leagues but keep VFA/L and SANFL AmNowEurovision (talk) 03:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment – So the SANFL is notable but the WAFL is not? That makes little sense. Or is it just because the former already has a section heading?

The way I see it now is we have three levels of 'stripping back':

• Remove local leagues: All in favour
• Remove state leagues: 3 out of 5 participants in favour
• Remove AFLW: 2 out of 5 participants in favour

Preemptively, we have multiple conundrums if the consensus swings not to removing the state leagues. 1) The matter of the dozens upon dozens of missing entries which exist across the VFA, WAFL, SANFL (and leagues such as the TFL, ACTAFL, QAFL and NTFL). This can obviously be rectified through research and sourcing, but it will take time. 2) Where to draw the line re: state leagues. Is 1991 the cut-off date? With no definition for 'first-class' or 'top-flight' football, how does one argue that a game-winning kick in a 2010s WAFL game is as notable or significant as one in the 1970s? And 3) Taking us back to the original issue itself, what does the title of the article then become? Do we leave the name of the sport in the title but put a qualifier in the intro that the article is limited to national and state leagues only?

Happy to keep the conversation going and see where we land. Gibbsy^spin 04:28, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Only did not mention the WAFL because of the lack of heading, but I do support keeping that as well as there do seem to be a decent number of examples. I don’t think we should do a “cut off” for the VFL/SANFL/WAFL as they continue to be notable, including the impact from AFL players in reserves sides as was mentioned by someone else above. Support a qualifier in the intro about national and state leagues. AmNowEurovision (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Re problem No. 1 - there's always the option of a different page but then again, notability etc (VFA/VFL is more notable than ACTAFL). Either way at the bare minimum things like the MPNFL should be removed.

A qualifier at the top makes sense, the title can be changed to something clearer but the "in Australian rules football" wording is obviously better than something like "in the VFL/AFL, VFA/VFL, SANFL, WAFL and AFL Women's" (but that goes without saying Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 07:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I've noted that this RM has been relisted as of a day or so ago. Are we still waiting on the input of more users to come to a consensus? Gibbsy^spin 13:08, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Possibly? I think the consensus is, unless anyone objects, remove the local leagues at the bare minimum Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 13:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, definitely local leagues have gotta go at the least. And yet we had a fairly major edit two days ago where someone is adding in random cases from the Geelong leagues despite this discussion occurring concurrently.

The overall state of play is still as I mentioned it above; whether 60% approval is enough consensus to limit the page to simply VFL/AFL, I am not sure. We probably need an outside voice to come in and make the call. Gibbsy^spin 01:05, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

At this point it's looking like an ongoing discussion but yeah, surely we can make the call to remove the local leagues now Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 23:51, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal is it possible for you to cast your eye over this discussion and make a call please? Gibbsy^spin 04:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the RM itself would have to close no consensus – not enough people have weighed in on the actual title (as opposed to the scope). I agree there's a clear consensus to remove local leagues, which I think includes non-major state leagues like the QAFL, TFL and so on. I think we just need one or two more editors to weigh in on the matter of the AFLW, SANFL, VFA/L and WAFL. – Teratix ₵ 05:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

We also need to be clear on exactly what local leagues are going to be removed, because something like the TFL is a lot more notable than the MPFNL

Also on the 'Other leagues' list is AFL Nab Cup and V/AFL reserves - again, remove or not to remove? Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 06:03, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

There used to be a lot of talk of notability in sports linked to professional level. The project has a bit moved away from this and more towards GNG, but as a general rule I feel it still has merit. Therefore, I think the scope should be for players in professional competitions (which afaik is the VFL/AFL and AFLW). This would mean a title like "(List of) kicks after the siren in professional Australian rules football" or even not moving it at all (as the default assumption is that only notable things are included on Wikipedia) and only changing the scope and clarifying the lede. Regarding all the word changes suggested, I think as it is fine for assumptions in the title and should be clarified in the lede. --SuperJew (talk) 06:18, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment – I agree that local leagues should be removed and state leagues split off to their own lists, but also think that AFLW should remain; something like "List of VFL/AFL and AFLW kicks after the siren" or "Kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL and AFL Women's" could suffice as the new title. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 07:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Comment - if we're talking about moving state leagues off to another page, are we talking about all in one page or a seperate page for VFA/L, SANFL and WAFL? Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 08:14, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Totallynotarandomalt69, I reckon there's enough coverage for each league to warrant separate lists – each list could also include their respective women's leagues like we're looking at doing here until they have enough coverage to be split off to their own lists as well. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 09:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

If we can get proper consensus around this then I'm happy to support - the lack of a record for VFA/L, SANFL and WAFL has always been my main concern

Separately, I think if this page is limited to V/AFL and AFLW then a section for 'other examples' should be included for the following:

• VFL/AFL reserves (the former competition that is)
• Pre-season and Night Series

Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 10:38, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I love records as much as the next guy and your message confirms my thinking that has obviously underpinned your reasoning over the last few weeks – that you don't want these instances to be lost to time. That is a noble effort and one I appreciate. But it doesn't mean that Wikipedia has to be the place to house it. I don't think the 1971 Bellarine & District Football League season should be lost to time but it doesn't have a place on WP. If anything, I think australianfootball.com is the definitive resource for these types of things. Anyone can post articles on there which can host such lists. Re: 'other examples', I don't think a reserve team competition would pass notability requirements, but non-premiership competitions of the pre-eminent professional league likely would. Gibbsy^spin 10:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

What I can say from editing it recently - and I think most here would agree - is that this page has been an incomplete mess for a while. Eg so many examples for state leagues that are mentioned and sourced on other pages but neglected here, while we've got mentioned of Adelaide Footy League Div 5 instead

I do truly believe that the 'major state leagues' are notable and deserve a place on this page while obviously also wanting, like you, all other leagues to be properly archived somewhere else Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 10:51, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I refute that there's enough coverage for state leagues to warrant separate lists. As @Teratix mentioned earlier in the discussion, none of the state leagues would pass WP:STANDALONE. The very fact that VFA/VFL & WAFL subsections were only created in the last fortnight reinforces that point. Those 'collections' of instances don't exist anywhere outside of this very Wikipedia page, as opposed to the VFL/AFL list which exists in published print media. They are also almost certainly significantly under-referenced and incomplete, which while not being a barrier to inclusion, doesn't exactly mount a strong case for their notability. Gibbsy^spin 10:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Australia has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment: interesting discussion from all here. To throw another idea into the works, could the notable SANFL / WAFL / VFA/VFL examples be moved to their respective records articles? (Or even as prose in season articles where appropriate) The notable examples from other leagues (including the reserves and pre-season/night series) could always fit into something akin to a "notable matches" subsection in their respective league/competition articles. As for the name of the article, given the current title is the concept, I agree with User:4TheWynne that "List of kicks after the siren in the VFL/AFL and AFL Women's" would be appropriate naming, or alternatively "List of kicks after the siren in Australian Football League matches" also works given that the lede could then state "This is a list of kicks after the siren to decide matches in Australian Football League and AFL Women's matches...". Storm machine (talk) 06:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

  If we can get good consensus on that then I'm happy to support the proposal to move them to the respective records page Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 07:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Storm machine, it really should be VFL/AFL rather than Australian Football League (because it covers VFL as well, and in line with other historical lists like premiers, games records, etc.), and I feel it should have AFL Women's in the title if both are present in the list rather than just specifying this in the lead; if others are also in agreeance, your wording would essentially just be adding "matches" at the end. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 11:08, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Page improvements, September 2023

Hello all. Thanks for your patience and good grace in the RM discussion above. Now that we've reached a resolution on the result and the page has a clearly defined scope, I think we can work to getting this towards featured list status. Firstly, I want to leave a permanent link to the pre-RM diff, just so that existing data isn't lost in the annals of time and can be used in other areas like season pages, individual player profiles or even external non-WP websites.

As I mentioned in the RM back almost a month ago, I think it's achievable and realistic to get this page up the standard of List of VFL/AFL players to have scored a goal with their first kick. It's well-presented and fit for purpose. While the RM discussion has been playing out over the last few weeks, I've been busy in my sandbox working on some improvements to the page, a number of which I'm ready to bring across to the mainspace now:

• Y Convert tables to sortable plainrowheaders
• Y Remove fixed table width – I think this can be revisited, but 80% was much too wide.
• Y Remove instance count in tables – this has actually caused more problems than it has solved in the past, as 'journalists' have taken the number of instances as gospel (often not listing the figure as "known cases") and resulted in some WP:CITOGENESIS. Given we are often semi-regularly finding new instances from back in the pre-television era, the instance count is a bit of a furphy.
• Y Add round number in tables – there is no good reason why it shouldn't be there.
• Y Convert scores from total to goals/behinds/total – in Australian football, scores are always displayed G/B/T, and it also adds context to each instance (team accuracy, for example). Formatting for the scores has been co-opted from List of VFL/AFL premiers..
• Y Convert 'details' column to 'reference' column – the old 'details' column was full of flowery cruft, subjectivity and links to non-free media. A vast majority of instances were sourced only from said YouTube videos too, rather than any printed or online articles. I've gone through and found individual references for each instance.
• Y Add section for non-premiership matches – now that the scope is defined to VFL/AFL, there is a home for instances in VFL/AFL-sanctioned matches that weren't a part of the regular season or finals matches (a.k.a pre-season matches, night series matches, or official practice matches).
• Y Convert miscellany section from table to prose – given these instances all differ wildly, they are best explained in prose rather than in a table. I am still searching for a primary source for the Paul Salmon instance, please let me know if you can help.

Some changes are still to come, which I am getting around to doing:

•  Apply all changes to the 'missed opportunities' table.
•  Add individual references for the 'behind to win', 'behind to draw' and 'missed opportunities' tables.
•  Convert all player names in each table to sortname templates.
•  Add more prose generally, including frequency of instances, frequency of clubs represented, and any other relevant trivia.
•  Add images throughout, as the main feature image previously used related to an instance in the SANFL and is therefore no longer suitable.

Looking forward to getting this page up to where it should be. Cheers! Gibbsy^spin 07:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC)