Talk:MTV Generation/Archive 1

what happend to this article? It used to have actual substance. Either delete it completely or revert

where has the article gone???

this piece was long and had lots and lots of work gone into to it ... wHERE is it??? and please put it backCilstr 04:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This used to be an interesting article. I come back for a re-read, and some dimwit has tagged it. What rubbish! The MTV generation is fact, not fiction. Im in it. I share traits with both X and Y. What happened to this article? It should be reverted back to pre Sep 2007. 203.57.241.67 (talk) 02:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)Encise

Generation Jones was born 1954-1965 (between the Boomers and GenXers); Baby Busters is a synonym for Generation X. For more, see the discussion pages for Generation Jones and Baby Busters 21st century Susan 15:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would say that Baby Busters, in the narrow sense, were born 1958-1968, but in the broader sense, would be everyone born in the baby dearth stretching between the main part of the "Boom" (1954) and it's echo (1981 or later). So in the broader sense, it would include Jones (1952-64), X (1960-1975), and at least half of MTV (1973-1988).Shanoman 22:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

1972-73 start date of this generation

I would argue that the MTV generation actually began with those born in 1973 (possibly even 1972) rather than 1975 for the following reasons:

1. The launch of MTV, the Challenger Explosion, and the fall of the Berlin wall (the three defining events of Generation X) all occurred before adulthood.

2. Those born in 1973 were eight years old at the time of the launch of MTV. They would have had no significant interest in television programming (other than childrens programming) before that launch. Additionally, pre-MTV cultural trends that would have influenced older Generation X cohorts (such as disco) would not likely have influenced them.

3. Anyone born in 1973 or 1974 would not have been old enough to serve in the Gulf War. While technically, anyone born between January 1 - February 28, 1973 was 18 years old at the time, the war occurred when most of them were in the second semester of their senior year in high school, making them ineligible to be deployed.

MTV Generation slang

I really thing this is misleading. I added a link to MTV Generation and maybe someone can do more research on MTV generation as only being an American thing and a nick named tagged to the teens that were hooked on the new fade called MTV similar to the teens that made the Beatles popular were called "Beatles Generation". What is next the "Pepsi Generation"? --Moose321 17:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Who re-did the Notable people sectioN??

Looks liek someone spent a bit of time rearranging the list i presume to save space.. . i Gotta say i dont like it. It looks messer, harder to read and more... can we change it back please?Cilstr 11:18, 15 June 2007 (UTC) AND WERE THE HELl did it go after all that worK??? (ps i didnt like it either - but where has the whole article gone? Cilstr 04:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The distinct end of Generation X

Is it ok for me to delete "as opposed to Jim Morrison for Generation X and Elvis Presley for the baby boomers".. since this is clearly rubbish (!?) POV etc.. as Morrison died BEFORE Presley did (6 years)... And anyway i assumed Presley was more of a Beat Generation marker/icon. Morrison more of a Boomer (and the oldest xers were 10yrs old-max). After assuming Cobain to be an X figure- I can accept the Mtv assertion.Cilstr 18:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC) I can see how it would hold for "mtv " gen- since it is such a short generation- but the majority of say, boomer icons/musicans were boomers (stones, fleatwood mac, led zep, sabbath, doors- even the beatle do scrape in -dep on when u draw the line.... Cilstr 14:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Why is 1985 in this generation...

I can't remember any of the event cited that i should i wasn't even born. The most recent event that say i should remember (challenger)i was a couple of months!!. People of 1974 shouldn't be grouped with people from 1985 i was born in 1985, I'm at college and i shred most of my school years as i do now at college with people who was born between 1984-1990 maybe with some of 1983 but 1975?? My aunt was born in 1974 and she was almost at college when i began 1st grade!!.

Could you please stop leaving unsigned comments, as they will not be taken seriously. As for the date of 1985 - this is the important date to which the MTV Generation ends, therefore those who are either born on that date will either recall or not the events or the influence of the social-political factors whilst they were growing up. Piecraft 10:07, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is not fully polished, however I hope that others might also contribute to this vital and notable term to define a genration of youths who were born out of the early 80s.

I really see this gen as a neat tie in for the group that doesnt belong- as stated in the article. I'm born 1975, when i was 15 i wanted to be gen x cause it was cool, but it was said i was too young (gen x page has at least 3 time lines) BUt i dont really identify with gen y either- maybe you do Mr Unsigned. And thats the point. Generations are NOt hard and fast rules for all- call you self what-ev-the-f u like- you're probably a gen y. It matters not. We're talking sterotypes here!!Cilstr 15:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Massively American centred

This article is so American-biased it's untrue. Thatcher had more importance, for example, in the UK than the Gulf War. Half of the shows listed were never shown over here. There isn't a single band in the music list from the UK, when The Smiths and Britpop and club culture dominated this generation - surely the first to go 'clubbing' rather than 'to a disco'? SORT IT OUT KIDS.

First off Thatcher is already listed, also although this generation spans across the majority of the Western World, please tend your careful eye to the Generation template and observe the title "American Generations" - if you'd like to perhaps add on to the article relating to European elements by all means feel free to include further. The music section has been condensed, there used to be many bands listed, the ones you see currently listed (i.e. Britney Spears, Limp Bizkit et al.) do NOT represent the MTV Generation, but rather the process that ensued right after the turning down of the generation and the height of the Gen Y. I wanted to include a much more thorough chapter to the music predominating the generation i.e. Eurodance, Detroit House, New Wave, Punk and Post-Punk, Heavy Metal, Goth Rock, Industrial, Skater Punk, Techno, Alternative Rock (Brit Pop/Grunge/Hard Rock/College Rock), Death Metal, Pop (Jackson, Madonna, Prince, Genesis, Pet Shot Boys), Gangsta Rap and Underground Hip-Hop - but I don't have the time or resources to put together a definitive piece that suits all of these in a reasonable style. As for the other cultural references, being an individual who lived in both the U.S. and Europe I can clearly state that growing up with the cartoons and toys were common in both sides of the pond, this included shows like DJ Kat Show that was broadcast on Sky from the U.K. to the U.S., and the hype for TMNT toys/movies/cartoon and games etc... so I can't see your point. Piecraft 23:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I lived my whole life in the Israel and I can relate to the article and find it an accurate cultural depiction of my generation. I think the strong US cultural infleunce in the article is a result of the strong cultural infleunce the US actually has on this generation all over the world. I could think of many events that have also influenced my generation that relate specifically to where I live, like the Assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the conflict with Hizbollah until the pullout from Lebanon in 2000, and the . These events clearly mark this exact generation in Israel who were the "highschool flower children" durring Rabins funeral and served in the IDF durring the bloody years of Hizbollah-Israel conflict leading to the pullout in 2000 as well as the Second Intifada. Despite this, I do not know if adding all these would ultimately help the article, as any non-Israeli in this generation cannot relate to them. When trying to define generations as a whole you have to go for the broadest generalizations; I mean world-wide broad. The Yom Kippur War had a profound influence on Israeli Baby Boomers and it is surely the most dominant event to define their generation but I do not expect there to be any reference to it on the Baby Boom Generation article, as that article refers to the world-wide baby-boom generation. The fact that the Waco Siege, as well as a few other events listed here mean nothing to me and have had no effect on my life, or probably on any other Israeli in my generation isn't the point, the lists are there to give a broad, general feel of the cultural events that define this generation world-wide, and if a good 80-90% of them are of cultural significance to me then the whole can certainly be can be seen as an excellent representation. DuckeJ 17:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

In Europe we also partook in the rave/techno/trance trend, which was huge. We didn't create it, but we participated in it. 24.255.25.146 (talk)

Pull the article

This article is little more than propaganda (and cultural hate), I suggest you pull it. There is utterly no historical reference to any of the claims made (beyond factual relation to the media). The dates of the generation have not even been firmly established. Further, a number of ideas are cited from articles that do not give credit to the author or take the words of the author out of context. Finally, ever sentence of significance must have a source. Pull the article until these issues can be resolved.

Your claim is not valid, a) because you have not even signed it and b) because you have not done the research or checked the history of this article. The article reiterates everything that has been stated through society/the media and other sources, relating to the MTV Generation, the youth growing up from the late 70s up until the mid 90s. If you have a problem then try discussing it here first and we can tackle the issue, but if you just carelessly blank an article and brand it as "unsourced" or "unverified" then I think you should re-think your strategy, as it IS verified and sourced... next please. Piecraft 12:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Cultural what?? and how is this article any different to all the other generational ones! Cilstr 15:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree! Pull this article!

To do list:

• Make a much more coherent description and listing of the cartoons/toylines relevant during the beginning of the 80s up until the mid 90s.
• Short but descriptive article relating to Music of the MTV Gen and how it influenced and progressed into the forms of music found today in Gen Y.
• Check links and add any further links necessary.

Piecraft 14:44, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Influential Artists on the XY Generation

Barbara Schneider and David Stevenson, in their research of 90s teens in comparison to 50s teens, noted that "in the 1950s, tastes in music were similar; nearly half the adolescents selected rock and roll as their favorite type of music, and Pat Boone was the favorite singer, easily surpassing all others, including Elvis Presley...(In the 1990s) the types of music (teens) listen to...became so long that we quickly realized that variation was the norm. Students talked about many different types of music, including alternative, country, hard rock, hip-hop, light rock, jazz, reggae, rap, and rhythm and blues, and the list of favorite vocalists and bands numbered well over fifty, with a few overlapping choices."

Important icons of the above genres who would continue to become an influence into Generation Y and were prominent throughout the 80s and 90s (some which are still today), especially on MTV and in popular culture were the following:

Alternative / Rock	Pop	Hip-Hop / Rap	Electronic
AC/DC Aerosmith Alanis Morissette Alice in Chains Atari Teenage Riot & Alec Empire Bad Religion Bauhaus Beck Belle & Sebastian Björk Bush Depeche Mode Eels Faith No More Filter Fiona Apple Guns N' Roses & Axl Rose GWAR Henry Rollins Hole & Courtney Love INXS Jane's Addiction Marilyn Manson Metallica Nine Inch Nails & Trent Reznor Nirvana & Kurt Cobain NoFx Pantera Pearl Jam Primal Scream Radiohead R.E.M. Soundgarden Stone Temple Pilots The Cranberries The Offspring The Smashing Pumpkins & Billy Corgan Therapy? Ugly Kid Joe Van Halen & David Lee Roth White Zombie	Billy Joel Blur Bon Jovi Boyz II Men Bruce Springsteen Bryan Adams Chris Isaak Cyndi Lauper David Bowie Dead or Alive Devo Duran Duran East 17 En Vogue Erasure Eurythmics & Annie Lennox Frankie Goes to Hollywood Genesis George Michael Haddaway Janet Jackson Madonna Mariah Carey Michael Jackson New Kids On The Block New Order Oasis Peter Gabriel Pet Shop Boys P.J. Harvey Pulp Roxette Take That Talking Heads The Bangles The Cardigans Tori Amos U2	2Pac A Tribe Called Quest Beastie Boys Coolio Cypress Hill De La Soul Dr. Dre Eazy-E Esham Faith Evans Foxy Brown The Fresh Prince House of Pain IAM Ice Cube Ice-T Insane Clown Posse Lil' Kim LL Cool J Ma$e Master P MC Hammer MC Lyte MC Solaar Method Man Missy Elliott Mos Def Nas Notorious B.I.G. N.W.A Ol' Dirty Bastard Public Enemy Puff Daddy Run-D.M.C. Salt-N-Pepa Sir Mix-a-Lot Slick Rick Snoop Doggy Dogg Suge Knight Suprême NTM The Fugees & Wyclef Jean TLC Vanilla Ice Wu-Tang Clan	2 Unlimited Ace of Base Aphex Twin Apollo 440 Basement Jaxx Bronski Beat Brooklyn Bounce C&C Music Factory Carl Cox Culture Beat Daft Punk Deee-Lite DJ Shadow Enigma Faithless Fatboy Slim Goldie Jam & Spoon Junkie XL Juno Reactor KMFDM Kraftwerk Luke Slater Massive Attack Mauro Picotto Moby New Order Nitzer Ebb N-Trance Orbital Paul Van Dyk Republica Robert Miles Roni Size & Reprazent Scooter Snap! Technotronic The Art of Noise The Chemical Brothers The Crystal Method The Future Sound of London The Grid The KLF The Prodigy The Shamen Todd Terry U96 Underworld

This list is not complete, and therefore does not reflect entirely every artist who has influenced the music of Generation XY.

1982-GENERATION Y

(This was taken from the discussion board on the Generation Y page, the author seems to be anon.) Piecraft 19:16, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Follow up....Basically, people stuck in between are a lost group of people. Someone from 1968 can call me an Xer, but they don't know nothing about what I went through. People from 1996-8 and 1999-2005 still have yet to determine which generation they identify with. Right now, someone from 1996 is in 4th grade and 2004 is still learning how to speak. By the time they grow up, they won't remember anything that happened in the 00s or 10s except for Spongebob. But there is already a tradition in place where older people determine younger people's identity without considering their views. I don't understand the use of that oppressive tradition. Give them a chance to grow up and speak for themselves. No offense, I'm just saying. I guess publicly everyone can say 1978 is X (even though I don't identify with them) or XY or something else. I don't want to impose my identity on others younger than me or change the agreement on 1982 start date. But, in my heart, 1978 will never be X. Never ever let Gen X swallow up the 80s. They have to learn their generation ends mid 70s. Meanwhile, there is such a thing as an in-between generation. September 2005

Date Problem, Big One

"60 million people were born between 1979 and 1994 in the United States ... This generation is the first to grow up with computers at home, music downloads, instant messaging and cellular phones."

Now I don't know of anyone born prior to 1985 that grew up with music downloads, instant messaging, or cellular phones. Computers, sure, if you count the old 386s and 486s.

I was born in 1983 and am a very proud member of Generation X. I am neither a Millennial nor a part of this "Generation Y". If you assume 22-year generations and put the beginning of Generation X as far back as 1961, then the end of Generation X is still 1983. And read the Gen X article; I don't think anyone would seriousely consider Demi Moore, Jim Carrey, or Courtney Love members of Generation X except perhaps for themselves (as hangers-on to a more youthful generation, and to separate themselves from their fellow baby-boomers). Furthermore, culturally speaking, those born between 1980 and 1985 have far more in common with those born between 1975 and 1980 than they do with those born between 1985 and 1990. Those born in the early 80's grew up on AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Guns n' Roses, were not generally exposed to computers until their teens, and are very securely part of the "Gen X Culture", whereas those born post-1985 are very securely part of Generation Y, with their instant messengers, cell phones, and 3-digit-bit videogame systems.

Those born in the early 1980's don't tend to think or act anything like Generation Y, and although at the lower end of the spectrum, could not accurately be described as anything but Generation X. This seriousely needs to be corrected. --Corvun 07:19, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This is the whole problem with these generation articles. Generations such as X and "Y" aren't really defined by exact dates or even an really properly shared characteristics. A kid born in 1988 might feel much more at home with AC/DC than N'sync, and somebody born in 1978 the reverse. Similarly a child born in a rich family in the late 70s could easily have had a computer, just as a child without much money today could easily not have a computer, let alone cell phones etc... These "cultural traits" are pretty fluffy, and are absolutely not common to an entire generation. Personally I think they describe a segment of society fairly well, but not a real generation. I suppose this is true of many described generations, but with X and Y, perhaps becasue they are so recent and we can therefore see their reality, seem particularly bad in this respect.

Peregrine981 13:01, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

Firstly, I'd like to apologize for any emotional charge present in my statements. My reaction was not at all befitting a Wikipedian. However, I think with Generations X and Y, there needs to be some overlap, as with the Babyboomers and Generation X. Saying that one generation ends exactly one year and another begins the next seems a little unjustifiable to me. I think people born in the early sixties, compared to younger Gen Xers, could easily be classified as Babyboomers, just as people born in the early eighties often consider themselves members of Generation X.

Would there be any objection to having Generation X encompass, say, 1961 through 1986 (1961 being the earliest date ascribed to Gen X and 1987 being the latest possible date, assuming a 22-year generation and the year 1964 for the beginning of Gen X), and then having Generation Y encompass 1980 through 2002? There would only need to be a short paragraph on each page stating something to the effect that people born in the period of overlap may classify themselves as being part of either generation. I'd think this would be the most accurate reflection of how the generation are characterized and characterize themselves. After all, a cultural "generation" is nothing more than a social construct anyway, so the views of society as a whole should be just as valid as any "expert opinion".

Come to think of it, both the social definitions/perceptions and the "expert" definitions could be contrasted, and these generation pages could actually start to resemble something of encyclopedic entries rather than just run-of-the-mill articles.

Thoughts? --Corvun 01:37, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We should mention that there are many different ways of defining the generation, demographic, sociological, and popular. I like your idea of having overlapping years for the different generations, as this gives a more realistic view of the field. Giving specific dates is a bit of a trap as far as I'm concerned, there'll always be someone unhappy, but I guess we need to nail it down a bit. One of the big problems in defining the generation is that people born in the 1980s and 90s have parents of very different ages, giving them different perspectives on life. Their parents could be born anywhere from the early 40s to the 60s or early 70s.

Peregrine981 03:59, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Yankelovich Partners and Bruce Tulgan have done some excellent research on "cusp" groups; http://www.tweeners.org bill themselves as not Boomers and not Xers, those caught in the middle born 1960 - 1965.

I agree with Corvun's thoughts on the dates. I was born in January of '82, and it strikes me as ridiculous to think that if I were two weeks older I'd technically be part of a different generation by some guidelines. I, too, feel more of a cultural divide between myself and those who were born in the mid- to late-80s than between myself and those born in the late-70s. I did not have a computer in my house until halfway through high school, and didn't have internet access until a year later. No one I knew had cell phones until buying them sometime in college or even after, and about half of my friends grew up without cable tv. So it seems silly to me to be lumped into a generation that is majorly defined as "growing up" surrounded by advanced technology. I also remember a lot more social and cultural things of the 80s and 90s than my brothers who were born in 1984, 1986, and 1990. It seems that, at least with the past few generations, if you were born in the early years of an odd-numbered decade you are right in the "core" of that particular generation, but if you were born in the early years of an even-numbered decade, you tend to feel borderline and not fully part of either (early 50s= core Baby Boomers, early 60s = borderline Baby Boomer and X; early 70s = core X, early 80s = borderline X and Y; early 90s = core Y). I read somewhere a few years ago about a mini-generation labeled "Generation Jones" that described people born in the late-50s to early-60s who didn't feel like they belonged in either generation they were on the cusps of, so maybe there is something like that going on with the late-70s through early-80s people. I think somewhere I was reading characterized "Generation Y" as being separate from both Generation X and the Millenial Generation, although (of course) their dates on this "in between" generation varied from mid-70s through late-70s to late-70s through mid-80s to anywhere in between. I don't know if other people around my age feel that the time we were born is sort of a transitional period between one generation and the next, but that is how I've seen it. Narrowing it down to a specific year seems wrong, especially when you're born on one of the years on either side of the divide, whereas saying more general things such as "early 60s through early 80s" allows for a bit more leeway in either direction.

Februarystar27 23:00, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

To add, I agree as well. I was born in June of '82, and do not fully consider myself as part of Generation X or Y. I identify with most people between the lowest-high limit of Gen X ('77) to the highest-low limit of Gen Y ('85), but not so much outside this group. Fëaluinix 06:18, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello in born 75- and i would definatly count Courtney Love as an X'er. What about Eddie Vedder?? he's born same year - They are almost leaders of X. To me these exaples Illustrate how generations are only a stereotype, an per individual. I also note there isnt much talk her of the other imbetween generation that Demi Moore, Jim Carrey, or Courtney Love would fall into : Generation Jones. ANd to counter "they're not X'ers" I would say they CERTainly are not boomers!! With no clue about the summer of love etc and barely remembering Vietnam... Cilstr 15:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Born in 1983? You are NOT a gen X. Sorry kid. You were NOT a KID in the 70's nor a TEEN in the 80's. Take a look at this [1] and look at the date on the mag. It says July 1990. You were about 7. Did you even know the term "Gen X" at the age of 7? I did. I was 23 at the time. Sure you may identify with some Gen X things but you are listed in Gen Y. Also take a look at this: [2] it lays things out a little more clear.

Where's the Y influences???

As I read this article, all of the influences you listed are a rip-off from Generation X. Plus, some people think GenY is more adept to technology. But, they're only good at using technology, and not creating. All of the technology listed on this article were created or fully-developed by GenX'er (do your research). Therefore, its GenX'ers who are more adept to using and creating these technologies. And, GenX'er's are not just observer, they're also contributors. I don't see much of a "so-called" Y influence in this article. This appears to be an article for disgruntled Y'ers who are deeply influenced by X'ers. Nice Beaver! 03:42, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I did do my research, you simply misinterpreted everything and placed it out of context. Firstly I neevr stated that Baby Boomers were influenced by MTV, I said that like the MTV Generation they were influenced by the television of the time as was our generation. The similarities of Generation Y to the MTV Generation are mainly those which you'll already find in Generation Y i.e. a new music-video-pop culture thanks to the growth and development of gangsta-rap back into a manufactured version of hip-pop, not to mention grunge into inde-rock and other modified versions of the music to which Gen X'ers as well as Gen MTV'ers would refer to as nu-metal, nu-punk and nu-goth. You should do you own research, and understand that Gen X did not encompass the 80s at all but instead only influenced our generation through their interests of music, film, style etc... which would later be modified in the 90s with our own custom changes and then further developed with the influx of new styles imposed by Gen Y: i.e. the new goth and skater-punk styles that are now common-place. I also never stated that "And, GenX'er's are not just observer, they're also contributors" you merely presumed this on your own bizarre account. The MTV Generation is not a rip-off of Gen X, it is the aftermath of Gen X, the pre-emptive catalyst before Gen Y. Piecraft 04:01, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

How can Kurt Cobain be an important death relevant to Gen X? If he died during the time of Gen XY? Get your facts straight. Jim Morrison's death was an important factor to Gen X during the 70s - he was mourned by everyone, especially the so called Baby Boomers you seem to be confusing for the younger fans which were shock! Gen X'ers! Don't change the article if you haven't a clue what you're editing.

Repost of Early Y Partition from Gen X Talk Page

I posted this awhile back on the Gen X talk page, before the creation of the MTV Gen page. This is just the copied text of it, so excuse some of the redundencies. I just thought this might give some insight into some of the more academic justifications for a sociological sub-set straddling both Gen X and Gen Y.

The "Early Y" Partition

In the course of a lecture in one of my sociology classes, there was a section devoted to a distinctive and very small generational subdivision that falls between both X and Y. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Gen X ended in 1980, or MAYBE 1981, it has been noted that those born in the years 1982/3 and POSSIBLY 1984 exhibit certain societal and cultural traits, habits and preferences that-- while combining certain aspects of GEN X, and especially GEN Y-- render them unique in their own right. This generational partition has been occasionally referred to as the Early Y or Cold Y generation.

Reasons for this partition include attitudes about technology, societal norms and, in an indirect sort of way, areas like the global political order, etc. This generation was the very last to (assuming born in 1982 or 83) obtain cognizance or self-awareness before the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. Therefore they were the last generational segment with any memory of life during the Cold War. They were also the last to have some ideas of what life was like when the modern information based society was in its transitional/formative years, rather than the current all-pervasive and totally integrated form it had taken by the early 90's. In other words, they were the final generation to be able to compare and contrast the late Cold War/Space Age society with the Post-Cold War/Information Age society using their own personal experiences and memories.

Consequently, one can see these characteristics manifest themselves in areas like the approach to contemporary technology. For the regular generation Y, modern information technology has always been "there", whereas Early Y grew up during the critical period of technological evolution in which the current bedrock technologies on which our info-based society relies were moved out of the technical/specialist realm and into the consumer applied realm, often when traits of each area were mixed and indistinct, giving Early Y a rather odd viewpoint that combines the outlook of the specialist/technical segment of the previous generation (but much more widely disseminated) with the integrationist outlook of the later Y generation.

In terms of political and societal outlook, there are also noticeable differences. Whereas Gen X has now largely has had time to fall into the standard orthodoxies of political participation (I mean that in a relativistic sense, not a judgmental/absolute sense, i.e. if you are on the far left in the U.S., a Trotskyite labor group could be considered an orthodox political outlet), and mainstream Gen Y has either done so also or (for a wide segment of it) remained apathetic or non-participatory. Early Y, on the other hand, has manifested tendencies towards a less common form of what has been termed "policy-centric pragmatism", which places a lower value, relatively speaking, on constructs like ideology or formalism. When what could be termed ideology does manifest itself, the Early Y's seem to have taken-on an unusual tendency to look to often imported belief or value systems that lie outside the scope of those normally brought into the U.S. from abroad.

Speaking in terms of societal mores and values, Early Y seems to be in limbo between the post-Sexual Revolution norms of Gen X and the emergent ones of Gen Y (which have been described by some commentators as simply the normalization or commoditization of those of Gen X). This includes an apparent embracing of the basic outlooks of Gen X, but a reluctance to carry to their logical extremes, as we see occurring now with Gen Y. In many areas, Early Y seems to embrace the more cynical worldview exhibited by X while rejecting some of what they view as crassness or immoderation. It has been remarked that in doing so, as Early Y matures they have begun to look several generations behind X in forming certain societal/sexual constructs.

In any event, this is me basically regurgitating the lecture presentation from class; some of the selected readings I've skimmed on the subject are much more complex. I would appreciate if someone could look further into this area and possibly make an edit on the Gen X article. Depending on the amount and nature of information on the subject, I'm considering forming a separate article entitled Early Y Theory. Any input is always appreciated.

This would be great if you edited this essay into the MTV Generation article as an area based upon the "Early Y Theory" which if anything truly denotes and contributes towards the overall analysis of the MTV or XY Generation. Piecraft 20:18, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I have incorporated this article into the main article as Early Y Partition with a few changes to particular dates and spelling corrections. Tell me if you think this is alright.

I was born in 1979 and I recongnize myself in this description (and under the term "MTV generation") much more than under either the "GenX" or the "GenY" label.24.255.25.146 (talk) 15:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Other Stuff

Possible additions, just a suggestion

• could the musicians be put in columns that are next to each other, so one column is alternate rock, next rap, etc? Or put it in boxes, like you have at the top, and the boxes are also next to each other.

• the rise of high security and metal detectors in schools during 90s
• famous video games, like Medal of Honor, Warcraft, etc. I'm still trying to find sources, but do you know any other popular video games? Famous cartoons - dragon BallZ, other japanese cartoons, etc. One more TV show - X Files, please.

• Also, a separate section for contemporary events we took part in , like the following........
• the list of famous people born 77-85, like they have in gen X and Y pages.

• Participation in the 1999 Seattle protests of the WTO - http://seattle.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/243095.shtml shows that many of the protesters who got beaten and arrested were of this generation. It says, "

While the demonstrators were fairly well organized, many of the organizers of the civil disobedience were young, in their teens and early twenties."

• participation in the iraq war, the resulting unemployment, and protesting against the war as well

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Oct2005/20051013_3041.html says there is a "high rate of unemployment among recently separated servicemembers, particularly ages 20 through 24, officials said." http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=13 shows the majority of the founders of a protesting group are around this age. Also, http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0417-02.htm shows that the average age of people who died in the war were 27. This average is between 18 and 55, so there must have been more on the younger side who died to lower the average to 27.

• I hope there is a study/article about current trends/issues of our generation, like employment, housing, etc. I'm still trying to find it. One issue is a lot of surveys about Gen Y are actually about those born in the early 80s, not the whole of Gen Y born 90s, so it overlaps with those born later 80s. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FXS/is_3_81/ai_84148622 says that in 2002 "As the current unemployment rate hovers around 5.8 percent, a six-year high, unemployment among teenagers aged 16 to 19 has climbed to 16 percent; among workers 20 to 24, the figure is about 9.6 percent. They are cutting people with fewer skills, less experience, fewer established relationships, and less institutional memory." This group covers 78-86.
• And this site went dead, but it is statistics about births by year. Maybe you could include information about population. When I saved it, I didn't save the website, but it said this site on the page <http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr51/nvsr51_12.pdf>) I could send you a pdf file if you want.

1977 3326632, 1978 3333279, 1979 3494398, 1980 3612258, 1981 3629238, 1982 3680537, 1983 3638933, 1984 3669141, 1985 3760561. The population of this generation is 32,144,977 (only for America). This is compared to Gen X (65-75) and Y (85-95) which definitely run over 40 million each depending on the beginning and ending dates. You can put them or not, it's ok, whatever you agree on. r430nb Dec 11, 2005

I will begin adminstering the first few changes, I think you're right some organisation for some of the listings are neccessary, however please feel free to add in to the article anything you feel requires to be stated - such as the above articles and description of how our generation participated in particular events and the surge in school violence across the U.S. etc... Thanks for the support and help. Piecraft 13:02, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I guess that a list of famous people born 1977-1985 could be compiled by copying info from Wiki articles corresponding to each year. How many names are needed? Approx 20-40?81.232.72.148 01:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Good! I'll BRB in a few days to put those in as well as other stuff I have in mind. r430nb

I'm guessing between 10-20 famous people who are notable - hopefully in terms of their contribution to the generation i.e. filmmakers Harmony Korine and Larry Clark as well as actors or musicians who were influenced etc... Piecraft 11:09, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

A list of famous celebs and stuff

I'm not sure which to really choose from - but I scanned over the majority of celebrity births on each year and picked the ones which seemed to be more widely known - tell me your thoughts...

1977

• January 13 - Orlando Bloom, British actor
• February 2 - Shakira, Colombian musician
• April 14 - Sarah Michelle Gellar, American actress
• May 26 - Misaki Ito, Japanese actress
• July 1 - Liv Tyler, American actress
• August 17 - Thierry Henry, French footballer
• September 11 - Ludacris, American rapper
• September 13 - Fiona Apple, American musician
• November 3 - Aria Giovanni, American model and actress
• November 10 - Brittany Murphy, American actress

1978

• April 9 - Rachel Stevens, English singer
• May 12 - Jason Biggs, American actor
• May 21 - Briana Banks, German actress
• June 10 - Shane West, American actor
• August 19 - Callum Blue, English actor
• August 23 - Kobe Bryant, American basketball player
• August 27 - Mase, American rapper
• October 14 - Usher Raymond, American musician
• October 27 - Vanessa-Mae, Singaporean musician
• November 9 - Sisqó, American actor and singer (Dru Hill)
• November 10 - Eve, American rapper
• December 2 - Nelly Furtado, Canadian-born singer and songwriter
• December 18 - Katie Holmes, American actress

1979

• January 16 - Aaliyah, American singer (d. 2001)
• January 24 - Tatyana Ali, American actress
• February 9 - Mena Suvari, American actress
• February 21 - Jennifer Love Hewitt, American actress and singer
• March 12 - Pete Doherty, English singer and guitarist (The Libertines and Babyshambles)
• March 30 - Norah Jones, American musician
• April 4 - Heath Ledger, Australian actor
• April 10 - Sophie Ellis-Bextor, English singer
• April 12 - Claire Danes, American actress
• April 19 - Kate Hudson, American actress
• May 25 - Jonny Wilkinson, English rugby player
• December 15 - Adam Brody, American actor
• Unknown - (Kris Kros) Chris "Mack Daddy" Kelly and Chris "Daddy

Mack" Smith, American singers

1980

• January 8 - Rachel Nichols, American actress
• February 12 - Christina Ricci, American actress
• February 21 - Brendan Sexton III, American actor
• March 21 - Ronaldinho, Brazilian football player
• June 17 - Venus Williams, American tennis player
• July 10 - Jessica Simpson, American singer
• July 24 - Gauge, American actress
• August 16 - Vanessa Carlton, American singer
• August 26 - Macaulay Culkin, American actor
• October 13 - Ashanti, American musician
• December 18 - Christina Aguilera, American singer
• December 19 - Jake Gyllenhaal, American actor
• December 30 - Eliza Dushku, American actres
• October 24 - Monica Arnold, American singer

1981

• January 22 - Beverley Mitchell, American actress
• January 25 - Alicia Keys, American musician
• January 28 - Elijah Wood, American actor
• January 31 - Justin Timberlake, American musician
• February 11 - Kelly Rowland, American singer (Destiny's Child)
• February 17 - Paris Hilton, American actress and heiress
• March 28 - Julia Stiles, American actress
• April 19 - Hayden Christensen, Canadian actor
• April 28 - Jessica Alba, American actress
• May 5 - Craig David, British singer
• June 7 - Anna Sergeyevna Kournikova, Russian tennis player
• June 9 - Natalie Portman, Israeli-born actress
• September 21 - Nicole Richie, American actress
• September 26 - Christina Milian, Afro-Cuban singer, songwriter and musician
• September 26 - Serena Williams, American tennis player
• October 30 - Ivanka Trump, American model
• November 26 - Aurora Snow, American actress
• December 21 - Britney Spears, American singer
• December 28 - Sienna Miller, American-born actress

1982

• March 3 - Jessica Biel, American actress
• March 11 - Thora Birch, American actress
• April 24- Kelly Clarkson, American singer
• April 30 - Kirsten Dunst, American actress
• June 21 - Prince William of Wales
• July 25 - Brad Renfro, American actor
• September 22 - Billie Piper, English singer and actress
• September 30 - Lacey Chabert, American actress
• November 2 - Kyoko Fukada,Japanese actress, model and singer
• November 10 - Heather Matarazzo, American actress

1983

• January 2 - Kate Bosworth, American actress
• May 30 - Jennifer Ellison, British actress
• July 2 - Michelle Branch, American singer
• August 14 - Mila Kunis, Ukrainian actress
• October 5 - Nicky Hilton, American model and socialite

1984

• January 5 - Tiffany Teen
• April 10 - Mandy Moore, American singer and actress
• September 15 - Prince Harry of Wales
• September 27 - Avril Lavigne, Canadian singer and songwriter
• October 3 - Ashlee Simpson, American singer and actress
• October 27 - Kelly Osbourne, English singer
• November 22 - Scarlett Johansson, American actress

I think this list would give others (not from the MTV generation) an idea on who came from the MTV Generation, rather than whether they were important to us or not. Because after all, we tend to look up to Gen X and Jones rather than our peers. So, it looks fine. Good job! r430nb 12/18

POV/unreferenced.

There are a lot of subjective statements made, and selective lists which reflect editor opinion. Phrases like "The launch of MTV in its early period before it's mid-1990s makeover for predominantly pop music, rhythm and blues, hip hop culture and reality television." The whole article really needs to be verified and referenced. --FuriousFreddy 21:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I really do not understand the angst people have against this article, it's almost as though some are trying to keep the reality of the truth about such a generation hidden and buried under the bureaucracy of Time and sociological hooplah! For goodness sake's, I agree perhaps there are some NPOV issues, but why not try to help instead? The sentence you have described is hardly POV, if anything the "makeover" towards a channel that shows predominantly, pop music, rnb and hip hop as well as relaity shows is even echoed in the Generation Y article relating to the music and TV of Gen Y. Why not research and see for yourself. This is not some witch hunt where people like us are attempting to demonize Gen Y'ers, but stating the obvious - they're music and TV is comparatively different from ours. MTV when I was a kid and growing up was not predominantly chart top 40 pop or hip hop or hip pop or whatever they call it nowadays. Other than presenting that sentence yes, maybe there are a few opinionated aspects to the article but pointing them out or modifying them would be much more appreciated instead of slapping a tag and stating that this is article is entirely POV and unreferenced. Please direct me to a verifiable and notable reference for Generation Y. I have already illustrated how the term MTV Generation has often been used around the world, especially in the media in the Gen X talk page. Piecraft 23:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. I didn't ready any Generation X article; I read this one. If you want me to go tag that article as well, fine. But it is not my responsibility to clean this article up, because I have little to no information to add to it, and I'm already busy with other articles. The sentence I referenced shows bias against pop, R&B, and hip-hop, because it implies that MTV's later heavy devotion towards those genres is a bad thing. Therefore, it, and the other instances of POV need ot be fixed. Who says the artists listed are the most important to the MTV generation? Why are they important? As it stands now, this article is just a list of "things we Wikipedia editors liked as kids" and nothing else. Wikipedia articles should read like professional encyclopedia articles, and the numerous opinions and biases presented here need to be cited (Wikipedia:Cite your sources) or removed.--FuriousFreddy 07:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

This whole article is an illusion. The term "MTV Generation" may have been thrown around a bit back in the '90s, but it was simply one of those ways that older people at the time lamented kids who were watching garbage. There is no way that it could be claimed that the stereotypes, labels and personal tastes noted in this article could be fixed on such a broad age-related demogramphic, even if all these facets of their personal images were dictated to them from the same source(s). Plus, all too often this article just becomes an excuse for a list of all the things which seem to be relevant. Can any references be cited. If they can, do they come from outside the internet? If not, do they just come from personal online write-ups? Finally, what the fuck kind of good can come from an article which tells you what a load of overpriveliged teenagers watched and listened to at some point in recent history? Too much of this sort of thing is clogging up Wikipedia, in my opinion. Surely it merely makes sense to devote our energies to the historical events of this time period, or failing that, the TV shows, bands and such mentioned in this article? Aaron Jethro 03:54, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Furious Freddy - wait, it needs more time. Aaron, I agree, sorry for taking up space. Thanks to Wikipedia for giving space. So, what I'm talking about is not so much about having space on Wikipedia, but an encyclopedic reference to MTV Generation.....It has to be general over a wide demographic because if it were any more detailed(location, race, yr of birth, etc), then it really would clog up everything. This generalization happens to be more "factual" than articles on Gen X or Y. Keep in mind that X started 15 years ago and Y 5 years ago, and stuck in everyone's mind before they had a chance to question whether it was valid or not. So, even though those terms are part of our everyday language and deserve to be in an encyclopedia, they are also illusions as well. Nobody disputes them because they are already accepted, but your same questions can be applied to them as well. It has nothing to do with facts. Look at those other pages on Gen X or Y, see what I mean. Where are the facts? But don't remove them either because they are partially true, too. An encyclopedia is meant to educate people on what actually happened. This is what reasonable people saw during that time and they moved on, grew up, and it's part of who they are. WTF does it help? It teaches people that there are limits to generalizing. We can generalize and be similar, but after the limit, we need to acknowledge the differences because if we act like something we are not, we are lying to ourselves. Neither Gen X nor Y would care about those things specific to us, so why should they describe us? Don't you notice that those definitions are more biased towards people born in core years 1970 or 1990 implying their existence is more superior, when in fact, we are just as legitimate as they are. Or did you mean who cares? Things shouldn't be rated on how much people care. It's part of history and just as legitimate as any other point in time. IF our grandsons don't care, that's their mistake, their undoing, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be recorded. That's our responsibility (like our ancestors) to tell younger people what happened in the past whether they like it or not. It's their heritage, it's the truth. We aren't going to be here forever for them to ask. After all, it's not as unreasonable as a day to day account in the life of all 32,000,000 MTVers or characteristics of each year. r430nb 12/16

Good grief, I thought the whole point of Wikipedia was to reference and highlight important events and terms that are notable? Why is it that there are so many people attempting to shut anything outside of what they consider to be verifiable. You lot above do realise that notability is not purely on the Net right? The MTV Generation alobeit has been defined differently, but the fact that this generation gap does exist is notable and a fact. You said it yourselves, and I quote: The term "MTV Generation" may have been thrown around a bit back in the '90s, but it was simply one of those ways that older people at the time lamented kids who were watching garbage. Aaron Jethro Well regardless of the context to which you seem to believe it was employed, that fact that this term was used and referenced individuals of a particular time period is notable in itself as you have so clearly pointed out yourself. I'm am really getting tired of wikipedians who feel it is their destiny to delete relevant article to which they have no prior knowledge or understanding of simply because they feel it's the right thing to do or perhaps out of a self-loathing hatred of anything that seems different to what they know and understand (however small that world is). There are many more articles on Wikipedia that need heavy editing and work and probably deleting other than this. And please spare me the indignity of I don't know about any other article, but I came across this one so... blah blah blah! Give me a break, you came across this one on your own petty whim, and with that whim you also believed it was unreferenced and bogus, well guess what Einstein check your facts. Because if you haven't looked already Generation Y is unreferenced, unless you call linking the article to several websites discussing the term, however the term is not defined as of yet because sociologists and scholars are still unsure as to which years to place it in. And let's not even get started on the Generation X article either. It makes me laugh to think that so many wikipedians treasure themselves so highly to think they are the all singing, all dancing, glorified kings of knowledge. Ever read an encyclopedia before? Hold on, on second thought have you ever been exposed to urban or youth terminology? Probably not. No wonder so many decent editors have left this encyclopedia-project, out of frusteration with individuals who seem to think their ideas and thoughts have more priority than the general consensus of what this project set out to do in the very first place - to document and record important and notable data that is relevant to the further development of knowledge. Piecraft 16:21, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But still, you recognise the problem you have just proposed, late X'ers or early Y'ers are not accepted by Gen X'ers or Gen Y'ers as their peers. There is comparatively a difference in mentality, attitude, upbringing and events occuring to individuals throughout. We are simply the Generation Jones of the 80s. Why is it plasuible for there to exist a Lost Generation, a Second Lost Generation (i.e. Generation Jones) but not a Third? After all is it not so that Generation Jones was named after a group of writers? I believe if it is taken into consideration as a standing and notable generation than Generation XY or MTV Gen regardless what you call it should be taken into consideration as well. Basically, you dealt it therefore you got to take it. If you're saying World War 2 was caused by the Germans then you're not accepting the fatc that it takes two people of differing opinions to start a war. In other words what I'm saying is it's all very well debating this and stating Gen X = 60s-70s and Gen Y = 80s-90s but who has the authority to decide especially in terms of Gen Y or Millennials (which is a term I do not associate with nor one I like) that those born in the limbo of the late wave of X and early wave of Y i.e. mid 70s up to mid 80s are not within their own element altogether? I know most would consider themselves Gen X, but it is clear that there are differences, just as I believed to have been part of X only now realising I am thrown in with Y. So it's all a matter of years? SOmeone born in 82 is X but someone in 83 all of a sudden is Y? Sure this is all relative you could say - depending on how you feel you are part of whichever geenration you feel true to. But most people who partook in a generation's core would argue against that n'est pas? Therefore there needs to be some form of clarification, and not some out of the magician's hat vague theory that is based around sketchy dates.

We are corresponding a generation according to demographics, birth rates, social changes, socio-political changes in society, cultural manifestations and the overall atmosphere of an era (including how it was reflected upon those people brought up surrounded by it). If we agree on this, then we must also come to terms with the fact that MTV Gen is a reality as has been pointed out by others unlike myself who support it's validity and existence, albeit perhaps it was unamed or they never coined a definitive term. However I have illustrated terms which have often been employed to define us, i.e. Doom and Gloom Gen, MTV Gen, Cold Y (relatively new one), Gen XY (proposed term), New Gen X, No Gen etc... these terms have been used throughout the popular media to describe kids and teens growing up throughout the late 80s and up until the mid-90s until as I have stated the term Gen Y had been coined to describe individuals of partaking in the new-found Information Age as well as the onslaught of the Digital Revolution which didn't start truly until towards the end of the 90s. If Gen Y sums up everything as being an individual who was born into a immersed culture surrounded by technology (especially that of a digital kind) then Houston we clearly have a discrepancy or two here. Either the Gen Y needs heavy editing or to be re-considered altogether, or we need to realise that our generation (the MTV Gen) are valid to be justified as a counterpart to Gen X and the influencial firestarter to the Gen Y. Because as of now I still see no evidence or enough facts to prove otherwise.

P.S. Also I would like to note, see what other articles link to the MTV Generation page and you will see this term does in fact exist and is used, although perhaps not as regularly as Gen X or Y. Piecraft 02:23, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Generation of Thugs

Generation of Thugs I think this page is good because it talks about what the MTV Generation is interested in, much like other Generational pages. But then I did research on crime statistics, which nobody is really interested in. On the one hand this information is not important to the MTV Generation because I don't think it really influenced us. So, it could be argued that it doesn't really prove our identity, but it does differentiate us from other generations. This is all sort of went on behind our back.

The following is a portrayal of those born 1977-85 through statistics and estimates in crime. These surveys may not be accurate. For the sake of portraying people the same age group, these figures have ignored important demographics such as location, sex, and race. However, there are large differences between these demographic groups. While it may seem like these figures are high compared to previous decades, they only represent a small percentage of the total population of people born 1977-1985. Some rates may not correspond to actual population, but to another factor, such as number of arrests. So, contrary to popular belief, not all of us are criminals, drug users, murderers, etc.

STREET CRIME 1988-1994 The early nineties were a dangerous period. The Late 1980s recession was in effect. Throughout the world, crime rates rose. In America, a crime bomb exploded in 1988. http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/jjbulletin/9812_2/few.html http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/jjbulletin/9812_2/arrest.html http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/jjbulletin/9812_2/minorities.html During this period, late Xers born mid 70s were entering adolescence. Naturally, criminologists would have predicted that this group of people would not be a threat until later on when they reached mid teens (15-17). However, crime statistics on numbers of arrests showed that adolescents were being pulled in to crime rings and being arrested in record numbers. The arrests adolescents increased year by year. Criminologists were baffled. Then, in 1992, the 1992 Los Angeles riots occurred. In 1992, people under 18 (born after 1976) accounted for 13% of all violent crimes reported and 18% of all violent crime arrests. They were responsible for: 9 percent of murders; 12 percent of aggravated assaults; 14 percent of forcible rapes; 16 percent of robberies; 20 percent of burglaries; 23 percent of larceny-thefts; 24 percent of motor vehicle thefts; and 42 percent of arsons. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1996/l-juvnil.htm The arrests increased until finally, in 1994, it reached it's highest peak with those adolescents born 1977-1982. This was a cause for concern. Criminologists rushed to find an explanation of adolescent participation. Some suggested neglect. Follow-up studies of children who had cases of substantiated abuse or neglect found that 26 percent of the children were later arrested as minors. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1997/juvnl.htm Others pointed to an epidemic of crack cocaine that fueled urban violence, as well as high unemployment and declining economic prospects for low-skilled workers, especially among minority groups. http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=10120 But the increase in adolescent arrests was a new issue, which couldn't be explained by old causes. Jeremy Travis, Director of the National Institute of Justice, vividly recalls, feeling confident about watching crime rates fall in the 80s. But then "rock" appeared on the West Coast -- a form of smokeable cocaine. Prof. Alfred Blumstein of Carnegie Mellon University has a hypothesis called the "diffusion hypothesis:" that as new crack entrepreneurs were setting up business, taking over turf previously dominated by others, they recruited young people as sellers and middle managers, then these low level dealers needed guns to defend themselves, and the guns, once in the hands of impulsive adolescents, quickly "diffused" into the youth culture so that garden variety adolescent squabbles over girlfriends and valued clothing got settled by gunfire. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/speeches/youth1.htm Another cause was influence of peers or membership in a group. Young people who join gangs are four to six times more likely to engage in criminal behavior when they are gang members than when they are not. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/speeches/youth1.htm Modern gangs became a public concern in the 60s because of the increases in violence, but the issue itself was largely ignored by government officials. They chose instead to focus on juvenile delinquency and other issues. Gangs must not have been big enough back then, but the 90s was a different story. As 1990 came around, the youth gang population grew like never before and was the subject of daily news and community meetings everywhere. However, the gang population continued to grow throughout the early 90s. The issue was so great that government officials couldn't ignore it any longer. They set up separate agencies and research projects specifically on gangs. The increase in gangs somewhat increased along with the rise in arrest rates. http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/ojjdprpt_yth_gng_prob_2001/chap1.html http://www.nagia.org/NGTASection_II.htm http://www.ncjrs.org/html/ojjdp/ojjdprpt_yth_gng_prob_2001/contents.html Gangs of the 90s are also shown in the HBO documentary “Gang Wars: Banging in Little Rock" (1994) and books such as East Side Stories: Gang Life in East LA (1998). For 1993, the conservative estimate of nationwide gang-crime activity, based on law enforcement reports, is 8,625 gangs, 378,807 gang members, and 437,066 gang-related crimes. This was an increase from 1991 estimates. http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/000293.html

On the hand, many people under 18 were also being victimized by their peers. Between 1987 and 1991, the risk that a person between the ages of 12 and 17 (Born 1974-1979) would become a victim of a crime increased 17%. Most of their victims are friends or acquaintances (53%), strangers (32%), and family members (15%). http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1996/l-juvnil.htm After 1988, the yearly number of people under 18 being murdered rose above 1000. http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/ezashr/asp/profile.asp By 1994, 25% of all crimes had victims under 18 (Born 1977-1983). 60% of victims between the ages of 12 and 19 (1975-1983) were attacked by someone between the ages of 12 and 20 (83% with weapons and 27% being seriously injured). In addition, four times as many minors were killed with a gun in 1994 than in 1984. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/1997/juvnl.htm

As a result of the crime wave of 1994, the public was now definitely scared of youth. But the number of juveniles arrested was hardly anything in comparison with the adult population. On a single day in 1988, a survey found that 1676 juveniles were in jail in contrast to 341893 adults. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cpop93bk.pdf Likewise, in a single day in 1995, there 7800 juveniles and 499300 adults. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cpusst.htm (This was not the actual juvenile prison population because prison is not the same as jail.) The media even predicted a new cohort of “super-predators” based on what had happened between 1988-1994. "Conservative academics such as James Q. Wilson and John DiIulio and a small band of mainstream criminologists such as Alfred Blumstein and James Fox forecasted societal disaster. Wilson predicted “30,000 more young muggers, killers, and thieves”; DiIulio in 1990 foresaw another 270,000 violent juveniles by 2010. He warned of a “crime bomb” created by a generation of “fatherless, godless, and jobless [juvenile] super-predators.” The media hyped the story, and many elected officials exploited it. The citizenry was told about a generation of babies, born to “crack-addicted” mothers, who would possess permanent neurological damage, including the inability to feel empathy. The scientific evidence supporting this claim was nonexistent. More than 40 states made it easier to transfer children to adult criminal courts." http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=10120 As a result, early Y criminals had a tougher time in court than Late Xers. In 1998, juveniles (1981-6) were more 3 times more likely than adults to be charged with a violent felony. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/jfdcc98.htm "Educators enacted “zero-tolerance” policies to make it easier to expel youngsters from school, and numerous communities adopted youth curfews. Many jurisdictions turned to metal detectors in public schools, random locker searches, drug tests for athletes, and mandatory school uniforms. The panic was bipartisan. Every crime bill debated by Congress during the Clinton administration included new federal laws against juvenile crime. Paradoxically, as Attorney General Janet Reno advocated for wider and stronger social safety nets for vulnerable families, President Bill Clinton joined congressional leaders demanding tougher treatment of juvenile felons, including more incarceration in both the adult and youth correctional systems." They also used youth correctional boot camps or “scared straight” programs that use prison visits to try to frighten youngsters away from criminal lives. http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=10120 http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/usermanuals/subabuse/subabusep.cfm

So, what do I think this all has to do with the MTV generation? As a result, we have been criminalized by society and each other. So, that suspicion will always be there, no matter what. Since we had lived through a tough time at a young age, we are more cautious of each other (for fear of our safety) and society (for fear of being labeled a criminal) than Generation Y. Generation Y is a generation surrounded by safety, harmony, and peace, whereas ours was prevaded by violence and hatred. They love each other and trust society. We hate each other and society. Gen Y doesn't trust us either. The difference between Generation X is that the hatred we emboddy is not so much caused by the same factors they grew up with. We grew up with violence and hatred caused by some societal unjustice, so hate, destruction, and violence go hand in hand. I'm not sure where Generation X gets their hatred from, but the injustices they saw weren't accompanied by violence when they were adolescents. So they use their hatred in constructive ways. (This is disbatable).

This is actually really interesting, and I find it also makes a lot of sense seeing as this was a time when Gangsta Rap was popular.

I didn't mean to mislead you. The last paragraph was POV, I don't know if it is true. Be careful, those were just statistics that could have been true or false. Many claim that the statistics seemed significant in comparison to the 1950s when crimes were almost nothing. But in my experience, the early 90s was a really bad time and people really were being killed every day and beaten up. I just figured that was the way life was when one grew up to be a teenager, but statistically, ours was way more violent then the rest. So, true or false, statistics definitely made the public think we were either a bunch of criminals or roughed up victims. In my POV, age makes a difference. (I theorize that) Since Generation X (65-75) was already mature enough to know what was going on, they could see it more objectively and more in a detached way. To them, it was probably just another economic recession that would come and go. They also weren't surprised by all the violence since it was the result of decades of pent up anger. In contrast, the MTV generation were only adolescents and it had a greater affect on them so that they took it personally. They didn't understand what was going on or why, and were likely to misinterpret the causes what was happening. If people did explain it to them, they didn't have the maturity to rationalize it. From my POV, people from the late 70s have a lot of hate inside them that prevents them from truly acknowledging each other. It became even worse when the violence went away and everyone started being nice to one another, then the mistrust really grew after that. I'm not sure if this describes the early 80s people.

DRUGS AND SCHOOL SHOOTINGS 1995-2000 Though the crime rates were surprising back then, it didn't last long. In 1995, for some reason, crime rates fell, and the public no longer feared little children would become criminals. http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/201370/page6.html Why did the crime rate fall so quickly? This raises a lot of questions about human nature and how can people become so violent and then stop all of the sudden. http://ojjdp.ncjrs.org/ojstatbb/ezashr/asp/profile.asp One big difference between the early and later 1990s was that the economy was now booming. By the late 90s, the more important issues in the media were school shootings and drugs.

Drugs

Though crime had gone down, its lasting legacy was the rise in drug use. Drugs had been declining in the 80s until the 90s it slowly rose up again. According to statistics, the drug most likely used is marijuana. Marijuana, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), other hallucinogens, crack, other cocaine, heroin, or any use which is not under a physician's orders of other opiates, stimulants, barbiturates or tranquilizers. A 1996 survey reported on increases from the early 90s including: marijuana (10.2% of 8th graders, 20.5% of 10th graders, and 23.7% of 12th graders), Cocaine (2.8% of 8th graders, 4.7% of 10th graders, 5.5% of 12th graders), and stimulants (8.1% of 8th graders, 12.1% of 10th graders, 10.2% of 12th graders). The use of LSD in 1997 was 13.6%, which was higher than in the 1970s. Binge drinking (having five or more drinks in a row in the last two weeks) (31.3% of high school seniors, 25.1% of 10th graders, 14.5% of 8th graders) and smoking was also increasing. Some of the causes could include people's motivation to use, if people see a drug as dangerous or not, the degree to which they disapprove of use (peer group norms constraining use), and generational forgetting. Lloyd Johnston's theory of Generational forgetting is where "one generation of young people may learn a lot about the dangers of drugs. One of the ways they learn is that they are involved in an epidemic and see it firsthand. But as they grow older, and generational replacement occurs, the newer cohorts don't necessarily know the same thing about the dangers of those drugs. Particularly if we have gotten drug use down, the newer cohorts wouldn't have learned vicariously about what happens to other people." http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p980459.html

School shootings Along with the general crime rate, violence and the usual fights in schools were reported to have declined throughout the mid-late 90s. LIkewise, when the crime was up during the early 90s, the crime rate was also high in the schools. http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/press/srsc.pr So, it is debatable whether the safety/disciplinary procedures they implemented caused students to reduce bad behavior. Anyway, the majority of the methods they used during the early 90s to prevent crime included (listed by percentage used) suspension, student conduct/discipline code, collaboration with other agencies, expulsion, school board policy, alternative programs or schools, staff development, and conflict resolution/mediation. Other used by a minority of schools were training/peer mediation, locker searches, closed campus for lunch, mentoring programs, home-school linkages, dress code, law-related education programs, multicultural sensitivity training, parent skill training, search and seizure, security personnel in schools, support groups, student photo identification system, gun-free school zones, specialized Curriculum, drug-detecting dogs, work opportunities, telephones in classrooms, metal detectors, volunteer parent patrols, closed-circuit television, establishing safe havens for students. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/GovPubs/gao/gao15.htm In 1995, MTVers were in Elementary (1984-5), Junior High (1981-83), High School (1976-1980). Then, the famous School massacres of the late 90s occurred. These were different from the school shooting incidents in the early 90s since the crime rate was already down. So, to the public, it seemed like the acts of an isolated person rather than part of a larger societal trend to crime. Instead of causing concern to criminologists, it caused concern to psychologists. http://www.apa.org/monitor/aug98/shoot.html Then, as other school shootings occurred, it became a trend of its own having nothing to do with crime rates. So, in contrast to other incidents in past decades (1960-70), it was part of a trend rather than isolated incidents. There were commonalities between perpetrators, as stated by the National Research Center: "While the inner-city epidemic of violence was fueled by well-understood causes—poverty, racial segregation, and the dynamics of the illicit drug trade—the violence in the suburban and rural schools more closely resembles 'rampage' shootings that occur in places other than schools, such as workplaces...In the inner-city cases, the shooting incidents involved specific grievances between individuals that were well known in the school community. In contrast, the suburban and rural shooting incidents did not involve specific grievances. These shooters felt aggrieved, but their grievances were a more general and abstract sense of feeling attacked, rather than a specific threat by an individual...In many of the cases studied, fellow students knew about the shooter's plans and, in some cases, even knew the shooter had a gun with him before the attack began. None of these students just snapped at the end of a bad day....Each shooter, instead, showed signs of his plans—even, in some cases, pleading for help. But knowledge of the impending tragedy never made it to the adults in the community." http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/0902128.html This resulted in profiling of students who looked like they were "at risk." "Lists of warning signs became extremely popular. During the year surrounding the killing at Thurston High (1998), the American Psychological Association issued "22 Warning Signs" that might indicate a "serious possibility" or "potential" for violence. The National School Safety Center, drafted a 20-point "Checklist of Characteristics of Youth Who Have Caused School-Associated Violent Deaths." And The National Center for the Prevention of Crime (NCPC), offered a list of "signs that kids are troubled" which might require "action."....(the lists included)..chronic feelings of isolation or rejection, frequent angry outbursts, social withdrawal or depression, fascination with or possession of weapons, alcohol or drug dependency, history of bullying behavior, and lack of interest in school or poor school performance...cruelty to animals, gang affiliation, dresses sloppily, geek or nerd, characteristically resorts to name calling, cursing, or abusive language." http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kinkel/profile/ Students were also being unfairly interrogated for such things as wearing black clothing or arriving at school in a trenchcoat In 1996-97, public schools had a variety of security methods in place. Newsweek magazine reports on the percentages of schools taking various precautions in an effort to reduce the risk of violence: • Visitors to school sign in 96% • Campus closed during lunch 80% • Access to school buildings controlled 53% • Access to school grounds controlled 24% • Drug sweeps (locker checks, etc.) 19% • Random metal-dector checks 4% • Daily metal-detector checks 1% http://cepm.uoregon.edu/trends_issues/safety/

High school is what we went through during the late 90s that Generation X had never experienced. Actually, the school shootings were very rare and so hardly anyone experienced them. The only thing we did experience together were the security measures preventing them and the media stories criminalizing everyone who seemed like a risky psycho. While the early 90s made us look like criminals, the later 90s made us look like potential psychos with a gun hidden somewhere. Because the late 90s was a time of prosperity and low crime, it was easier to do a "witch hunt" against grungy/shady/antisocial looking people. Unlike school shootings, drugs was a real threat affecting a lot of MTVers. But society was busy focusing on unreal threats, while drugs grew and grew. Lloyd Johnston points out in his theory of Generational forgetting, one generation had learned the bad affects of drug use and stopped using drugs, and the next forgets it. Drug use was declining in the 80s (a fact for which I lost the source somewhere). This marks a big difference between Generation X, where the drug use was declining during the 80s, when they were teens. Meanwhile, when we were teenagers in the 90s, drug use was rising. Even though it is not the majority, the use of marijuana takes up almost 25%, which is very significant. The question is why? Why did drug use decline when Xers were teens and then increase when MTVers were teens? It seems MTVers have a different perspective on drug use than Xers. The National Institute on Drug Abuse http://www.drugabuse.gov/stressanddrugabuse.html states that stress is the number one cause of drug abuse. Possibly, the transition between the early 90s and late 90s caused stress, or that the late 90s was a time of great stress.

r430nb 12/21

This emphasis on crime and delinquency seems overblown. As an Xer (born 1966), I knew that guns and drugs and pregnancy had reached the preteen ages in the 90s, but never did I think that all teens and early-twentysomethings then were criminals, or that any specific person was more prone to delinquency than previous generations had been. Gangs and violence were associated with a few young people in particular neighborhoods, not young people in general. So being branded as delinquents may have been the perception but not necessarily the reality. What is clear is the high level of general anxiety among XYers. I witnessed society "falling apart" during adulthood (GenX was the first one who couldn't fulfill the American Dream of buying a house like our parents), whereas to XYers it's always been falling apart. If most XYers truly are suspicious of each other, that is sad indeed. I never knew many people my age (everyone was older or younger), so the friends I've met who are my age are extra special. --Sluggoster 12:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Take Care Piecraft

The person who started this article has decided to move on to bigger and greater things. So, I wish him good luck. He is probably the first person to ever describe our generation or group in such an accurate way, not like those Gen X or Y pages. He made that first step. So, I don't know any other way than to say thank you for getting that out there and fighting for it so it stays here on Wikipedia, like he did. There will never ever be another person like that. So, the Wikipedia world just lost a good person. r430nb 12/25

Dates

So, first off, found a source for the dates http://www.youthspecialties.com/articles/topics/family/multigenerational.php It states that "The "Cuspers" are those who are born in the transition between generations. If you couldn't neatly place yourself in any of the above categories, then you're probably a Cusper. 1943-1947, 1962-1967 and 1978-1982 are each considered transition times. Many people born during these cusp periods identify with the generations on either side. Often, Cuspers feel like they belong to neither and belong to both. This population caught in the middle can play an important role in ministry. They are generationally bilingual. They can act as translators and ambassadors between the generations."

WTF? People born in 1986 can't remember a time before DVDs?

I was born in 1990, and, ridiculously enough, it is said people born as LATE as 1985 CAN remember a time before the whole Ipod wave of technology of the 1997-present era.

That's ridiculous to say a person born in 1990, much less 1986 would not remember a time before DVDS, TIVO, MP3 Players, and Sirius Satellite Radio. I admit I'd had a computer as long as I can remember, but I remember (although vaguely) the Internet surge of 1994-96 and CERTAINLY before MP3 players, Ipods, and such began to appear circa 1998. Maybe a bit vaguely, yes, but some people act as if memory begins when you turn 12. Bollocks, I remember back to when I was 3/4 age span, which is 1993-94, certainly before MP3 players and Ipods and pretty much pre-Internet too, even if computers were quite common.

I didn't even know what a DVD was until about 1999 or 2000.

Hmm, very interesting. That sentence will be removed. Thank you for the feedback. r430nb

It has nothing to do with how far back you can remember, what it has to do with is whether it was of any impact to your life at the time, judging by your own statement it would appear that it wasn't seeing as you were too young to "vaguely" remember and for it to be of any importance to you. Whilst you were growing up in the 90s you had no true grasp of the youth culture and lifestyles prevalent throughout that were sparked off from the beginning of the 80s - and the fact that the technology prior to mp3 players, Tivo and DVDs was of an actual improtance to those growing up through the 80s until mid 90s. You even state yourself that "I didn't even know what a DVD was until about 1999 or 2000." Whereas most people born in the XY Cusp already knew what a DVD was by the time you were 6 or 7. 87.80.126.226 15:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Okay, seeing as you said it would have 'an impact' or 'importance', I was born in 1987, and I clearly remember what it was like before any technology. I can relate to most if not all of the movies, musicians and other forms of pop culture for the 'MTV Generation', but does that mean people born from 1987-1989 are suddenly part of the 'iGeneration'? I frankly think this whole concept of a generation is too ambigious. People like Eddie Vedder, Kurt Cobain etc all helped to define and shape the era for sure, but that does not mean that they are necesserily part of it. They were probably a good 10 years older than the kids who listened to their music at the time, and I feel that they probably helped to mould this era and this generation because they were drawn upon as inspiration.

Piecraft!

I had to remove the heart of the article for which you did a lot of work. I'm sorry. So I will put it here for now until there is an agreement on who stays and who goes. I know, this article isn't much of anything without this list. But they put this article on deletion since yesterday 12/28. Most people disagree on the following sections.

A generation gap that includes the end of the [[Generation X]] (a generation following the baby boom, especially Americans and Canadians born in the [[1960s]] and [[1970s]]) yet importantly includes the elders of [[Generation Y]] (a generation considered to follow Generation X from 1977 onwards). However, the offspring of those who were born from parents of the [[Baby Boomers]] Generation in the late 1970s and early [[1980s]] who do not necessarily fit in to Generation X's overview are considered to be a generation within itself - namely '''Generation XY''' often referred to as the '''Cold Generation Y (Early Y Partition)''' or '''MTV Generation''', also the definitive term: '''Thatcher's Children''', wrongly referred to Generation Y) which could be considered to have been between [[1977]] and [[1985]].

Movies that define the generation

*''[[Akira (film)|Akira]]'' (1988) [[anime]] *''[[Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure]]'' (1989) *''[[Bill & Ted's Bogus Journey]]'' (1991) *''[[Wayne's World]]'' (1992) *''[[Jurassic Park]]'' (1993) *''[[Wayne's World 2]]'' (1993) *[[Gregg Araki]]'s ''[[The Doom Generation]]'' (1995) - part of the ''Teenage Apocalypse Trilogy'' *''[[Dangerous Minds]]'' (1995) *''[[Friday (film)|Friday]]'' (1995) *''[[Empire Records]]'' (1995) *[[Larry Clark]]'s ''[[Kids (film)|Kids]]'' (1995) *''[[The Craft (film)|The Craft]]'' (1996) *''[[Ghost World (film)|Ghost World]]'' (1997) *[[Gregg Araki]]'s ''[[Nowhere (film)|Nowhere]]'' (1997) - part of the ''Teenage Apocalypse Trilogy'' *''[[Human Traffic]]'' (1999) *[[Harmony Korine]]'s ''[[Julien Donkey-Boy]]'' (1999) *[[Gus Van Sant]]'s ''[[Elephant (film)|Elephant]]'' (2003) *[[Larry Clark]]'s ''[[Ken Park]]'' (2002) Director [[Harmony Korine]] not only grew up in the generation but also emulates it within his movies which reflect the youth and lifestyle of the XY Generation. Other directors that were prominent icons during the generation would be [[Quentin Tarantino]], [[Robert Rodriguez]], [[Kevin Smith]] and [[Wes Anderson]], [[Danny Boyle]], [[David Fincher]] and [[Spike Jonze]].

Um, what about Back to the Future? And Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 08:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

BTTF originally came about in 1985, but reruns and videotape were already well in use by the late 1980s anyhow, and there was a BTTF part 2 and BTTF part 3 in the late 1980s, so BTTF ought to be in there somewhere. Bill and Ted's already in there. 204.52.215.107 (talk) 08:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

===TV that define the generation=== *[[The Charlie Brown and Snoopy Show]] (1983-1985) *[[The Simpsons]] (1989-present) *[[The Ren and Stimpy Show]] (1991-1996) *[[Beavis and Butt-head]] (1993-1997) *[[Family Ties]] (1982-1989) *[[Growing Pains]] (1985-1992) *[[Full House]] (1987-1995) *[[Saved by the Bell]] (1989-1993) *[[The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air]] (1990-1996) *[[Boy Meets World]] (1993-2000) *[[Married... with Children]] (1987-1997) *[[Beverly Hills 90210]] (1990-2000) *[[21 Jump Street]] (1987-1991) *[[Daria]] (1997-2001) *[[Baywatch]] (1989-2001) *[[The Real World]] (1992-present)

One tv show that this generation watched but which lasted too long to define this generation

• Sesame Street (1969-present) (watched by very late Baby Boomers, Gen Xers, XYers, Gen Yers, and millennium generation as kids) 204.52.215.107 (talk) 08:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Reinsertion

I do suggest that the above sections taken out be reinserted back, if you can find cites. --Andylkl ^{[ talk! | c ]} 08:45, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I know it must hurt to see something so good and with so much work taken out. Hmm. Ok, I'll try to find something, but it will take a while I'm sure. r430nb

Definition of MTV Generation

Think in that midsts of editing and adding and removing content in the article, I've not a clear concept of what exactly the MTV Generation is, and it's best that a definition be given about what it exactly is, and how the rest of the points tie in with MTV Generation. We're building an encyclopedia, so don't forget about Wikipedia's neutral point of view, cite relevant sources, and don't assume that the reader knows that you're talking about. So it's best to explain. :) --Andylkl ^{[ talk! | c ]} 08:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I cannot find a definition right now for the MTV Generation, but so far, I have found a definition which matches the birth years he was talking about 77-85. But my sources only cover 1978-82, 1978-88 and the name is called Xer-Millennial Cuspers. Would you have a problem if I plan to change the name of the article to match the birth years of this group to XY Cuspers? I have decided to call it XY Cusp because the name is merely a combination of the before (X) and after (Y) generational names. On the other hand, the MTV Generation is used interchangeably with both Generation X (1961-81) and Y (1982-2000). A definition of the MTV Generation would include a much wider group, expanding the lists of music into the 80s, 90s and 200s. Right now, the list of music, shows above only covers what teenagers in the 90s listened to. A neutral point of view would not only focus on the group from 1977-85 because MTV has been marketing to teenagers since the 80s until now. Someone saw that and put it up for deletion. Hence, I'm hesitant to using the name MTV generation to describe those born late 70s and early 80s when I can't find proof right now that it ties directly to this group of people in relation to Strauss and Howe's generations. The main purpose is to differentiate between this group and the rest, and naming it MTV generation would only unify X and Y together and you know Strauss and Howe wouldn't like that! BTW thanks for the editing! r430nb

The Ambitious generation

Yeah! Haha, we did it! Much thanks goes to everyone who helped! Happy New Year! On a more sad note, I'm planning to add more information from a book called The Ambitious Generation (1999) 0300082754 by Schneider, Barbara L.; Stevenson, David, which focuses on those who graduated during the late 90s (1976-possibly 81), it talks about how many were unrealistically ambitious but had no idea how to reach their goals, and also how schools and parents didn't know how to prepare them for the future. He also shows how many were doing well acadmically in school despite the negative images portrayed in the media of 90s teens. He called them the Ambitious Generation because they were the most ambitious compared to teenagers of past decades (all the way back to the 50s). It may take a while, but just know there is more coming on the way. r430nb 1/03/06

Article Cleaned up

I think this article has been pretty much cleaned up - just needs a few more literary references perhaps and some more editing here and there, but other than that I think it has proven to have redeemed itself, in light of the Gen Y and X articles which are in a considerable mess. 87.80.126.226 22:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. You did a good job! r430nb

The effects of 911

Generation 9/11, by Thomas Reissmann http://www.prweb.com/releases/2005/8/prweb272189.htm http://peacecorpsonline.org/messages/messages/2629/2034703.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/targets/2003/0620generation.htm http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=349539 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184549038X/103-5396286-6091821?v=glance&n=283155 http://www.send2press.com/newswire/2005-10-1018-003.shtml http://www.edb.utexas.edu/faculty/somers/911/gen_%20911_ver3.htm http://www.generation911.co.uk/2.html http://www.wordspy.com/words/Generation9-11.asp http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/11-04-2001/0001607931&EDATE= http://latc.com/2002/09/11/schools/schools3.html http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=19325 http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/custom/attack/bal-te.children06sep06,1,3235671.story?coll=bal-local-utility http://www.chronicle.duke.edu/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/12/07/4395ad8437e6b http://www.utexas.edu/features/2005/generation/

In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks on the Twin Towers (known as the World Trade Center) in New York City, XYers came to be known as Generation 9/11. The term had been coined by Newsweek in November of 2001, but was criticized by Thomas Reissmann as implying unified American patriotism and support of the war when clearly the same generation was involved anti-War and anti-globalization not only in America, but worldwide. [3] [4]

Despite the controversy, research has shown that 9/11 has had a significant impact on Generation 9/11. Patricia Somers restricted her poll to “The generation of people who were enrolled in high school or university on September 11, 2001” and more precisely “everyone born between 1978 and 1987.” [5] Newsweek restricted its poll to 18-29 year olds in 2001 (Born 1972-83). [6] Both polls generally center around the MTV Generation.

Newsweek conducted its poll two months after 9/11 and found that 57% of 18-29 yr olds say they've become more serious about marriage and relationships because they feel their lives could end at any time; only 18% say they've become less serious and are reluctant to make commitments at a time of uncertainty. 68% of the age group say they've become more serious about their work and studies because the gravity of recent events has forced them to grow up. 83% say that following the terrorist attacks they're at least somewhat more likely to choose health care and medicine as a profession or course of study; 77% for science and technology and 83% for the military. [7]

Patricia Somers and her research colleagues interviewed 50 students at colleges and universities in the Midwest in the weeks and months following 9/11, far away from the tragedy on the East Coast. They found that..................to be continued [8] [9]

There is disagreement on the long term effects of 9/11. Some have noted a dying down of participation in the months and years following 9/11. Since society at large equates 9/11 to Pearl Harbor, some feel guilt over not being able to to make monumental sacrifices comparable to the "Greatest Generation." This has led others to question the causes of the decline, pointing to nihilism, being burnt out by an unusual number of natural and man-made disasters, and that "pop culture was more of a concern than world annihilation" causing people to eventually "relax back into happiness and comfort." [10][11] [12]

On the contrary, Reissmann found that it caused many people in Generation 9/11 to choose careers of philanthropy. He says, "CBS reported in July 2005: "9/11 Grads Choose Public Service". According to this report, young people graduating from prestigious American universities are forfeiting jobs on Wall Street to teach inner-city kids. Applications for Peace Corps were up 80%, and Teach for America experienced an increase of 40%. Interest in non-profit careers had more than doubled. Having travelled for years and working for responsibletravel.com, it is also my experience that volunteering overseas is now more popular than ever. According to Wilene Justilien, a math teacher in Washington DC, Generation 9/11 is “a generation that wants to improve the lives of others and is driven to succeed at that right now.“" [13]

r430nb

Although the 9/11 attacks were of great importance to those of us pertaining to XY, it was just as much of an impact upon those in Gen X and Gen Y. I believe however that the 9/11 attacks were of greater importance as a cultural/political impact upon the Gen Y'ers. 87.80.126.226 11:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, too. Leave this out, then. But a warning, Generation X is "Pro-war" and "patriotic" determined to prove they are not slackers, but instead the "Greatest Generation." [14] [15] [16] [17] XYers have mixed feelings about war, maybe cynicism towards their own country. But, I'll leave it out, still. r430nb

No I think there may be some relevance in describing the political climate of the XY attitude of today seeing as it does bear relevance towards the future generation which is subsiding with the onslaught of Gen Y. However it might be good to ensure that people do not think that Gen XY is in any way taregetted as the generation to which the 9/11 attacks or Gulf War 2 were of the most important issues in terms of the influence it had over those growing up within the XY generation. 87.80.126.226 01:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

About the political climate - I know I'm not able to find out about political climate. All these sources, instead of portraying public opinion, try to influence or mislead society. Ok, I get it = XYers were not in an independent (economically/emotional) position to think about war. ...(erased)...But during that time, everyone knew and had experience from the past (Seattle protests and profiling of school shooters and terrorists) that speaking out against the war meant being punished to the fullest extent and that society was all too happy when it came to punishing/persecuting XYers. Generation X, instead, was more established and independent by then (in terms of major life issues) and had more time/money/networks to sit back, think about it and do something. No one wanted to mess with Generation X because Xers had connections to the media and yes, they were united as a group, unlike XYers which will always be fragmented. It was a real choice, with no real pressures. So, you are right, it's a touchy subject, I'll leave it to the more politically correct/diplomatic types.

But, forget about all that, I think I sent you on a wild goose chase, and what I really wanted to do was find another source referring to the 75-85 group as a "generation." Patricia Somers and Wordspy say it's between 1978 and 1987. [18] Newsweek and Thomas Reissmann (who wrote a book about it) says its between 1972-1983. [19] Both polls generally center around the 75-85 group. In this case, the name was Generation 9/11. I'm sorry that it gives off the impression that 9/11 was all important to us, when in reality, it was just a name given to us by the media in an attempt to give us a guilt trip and fight the war. In effect, this is all i wanted to do....

However, the offspring of those who were born from parents of the Baby Boomers Generation in the late 1970s and early 1980s who do not necessarily fit in to Generation X's overview are considered to be a generation within itself - namely Generation XY often referred to under several known names by the media and society as the Cold Generation Y (Early Y Partition), Generation 9/11[20] [21] [22], The No Generation or MTV Generation [23], (also the definitive term: Thatcher's Children and Cold War Babies) which could be considered to have been between 1975 and 1985.

Good? Remember: Is it not Manekineko who said - "sadly, I don't think most of us get to define our own generation names; such names are almost always slapped on us by demographers, the media, etc" The only difference is Generation X decided to embrace its name. r430nb

Perhaps it is noteworthy to mention this term "Generation 9/11" as I had already stated, but to also give an exact description as well alongside the information you have found with sources, that our generation was only called Gen 9/11 as a guilt trip, because most people already during the year 2000-2001 were young adults by then and the effects of 9/11 did not have such grand impacts. Also most people of our generation were against the war because we had lived through the effects of the Vietnam through Gen X as well as the cynicism of war through the Fall of Communism and through the 90s i.e. Gulf War/Kosovo - we had already expereinced Bush so to speak in his father. 87.80.126.226 11:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

"Pro-war?" "Anti-war?" Which war? The article seems to be treating Afghanistan and Iraq as one single issue, as if those surveyed in the 2001 polls were in favor of invading Iraq as well as Afghanistan. I daresay this shows a GOP bias by treating the invasion of Iraq as being a demonstrably integral part of the 2001 attacks and their proper response, or at the very least denies the possibility of being in favor of invading Afghanistan but against invading Iraq. Guppy313 16:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

If you don't think it's right, then change the article. Don't be shy. r430nb

Why is "Generation 9/11" even in this article? MTV not only already existed, but had been morphed into the music-free incarnation that is today by 2001. Wouldn't this be more appropriate it shove this in a separate article? 67.169.145.35 (talk) 09:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Cusp between Silents and Boomers

I found something interesting....Maggie Siggins wrote a book In Her Own Time: A Class Reunion Inspires a Cultural History of Women which refers to a cusp between Silents and Boomers. Just something to think about before I go, I hope one day I can read it and add a page on that, so that there will be a link between all the cusp generational pages together: MTV Generation, Generation Jones, Silent/Boomer Cusp. I'm not sure how long it will take, but the story is still incomplete and forever will be, its up to those later on to complete it. [24]

BTW, that section "Overview of the cultural impact of the media upon the MTV Generation" is looking pretty good, it really describes us to the T! There is no generation page that will ever be able to describe us so accurately.

Generational Disputes

As you know, they erased the section in Generation Y that refers to XY Cusp, so I'm thinking about putting it here:

Many sources disagree over where to place the boundary between Generation X and Y, ranging anywhere between Mid 70s to Mid 80s. Both Generation X and Y have generally agreed around the 1981/1982 separation. This, however, did not end the dispute and uncertainty between people born within these years as to whether this group as a whole belongs to either X or Y, or a separate generation similar to Generation Jones. Some as early as 1976 affiliate with Generation Y, while some as late as 1983 affiliate with Generation X, with every year in between alternating between X and Y. Complicating the matter are the different opinions of what consists of years of affiliation and separation within the group: mid 1970s-77, 1975-81, 1977-80, 1978-82, 1981-83, 1980-84, and 1984-mid 80s, 1979-85. Due to overlapping waves, the mid-70s are usually claimed by Generation X and the mid 80s by Generation Y. r430nb

That is slightly silly of them, I think just as Gen X has referred to the XY Cusp it is necessary as well for the Gen Y article to also state the obvious cusp between both generations which in turn created a sub-generation "gap". However if you feel the above info needs to be added to the article then I would support it, however as far as I can tell it's alreayd been covered. 87.80.126.226 16:01, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I guess I was just angry, but they added "subset of generation" section, so I'll hold off for now. I must note that there is a significant disagreement that splits us up. I may be wrong, but 1977-79-81-83 seem to not want to affiliate with Y and 1976-78-80-82-84 seem to not want to affiliate with X. Like..as if the two groups differ in how they approach and see their place in the world. This is a disagreement that, I hope, shouldn't split us up or not want to identify with each other. r430nb

Boomer/X/Y/Z/Generation

Sorry if I added on the page the wrong way. By the way, could you make a boomer/x/y/z friendly page like this, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'd like a more computer friendly version, please. The boomer/x/y/z generations should look like this:

Generation: baby boomers: from 1941-1961 for the 20 year perspective if you like 1941 as the beginning of the boomers and 1945-1964, 1946-1965 if you like the '45, '46 beginning year with the twenty year perspective. Generation x and be from 1961 to 1981 or 1961-1976, or 1964-1984 or 1965 to 1985 or any combinations of numbers that makes sense. Personally, anyone born from 1961 to 1975-1985 is a part of this generation. I think the Vietnam war (as much as our parents and grandparents don't like it) should be the main factor in thinking how to differentiate between the baby boomer generatin, generation x and generation y. Kennedy began speaking to the president of Vietnam in 1962 and the war ended in 1972. Vietnam War to me is from 1962 to about 1975 (that is when the troops came home). That leads us to the "original pilot generation y program (as I like to put it). Generation y to me begins with the beginning of the MTV generation (or at least close to it) and ends with either the coming down of the Berlin Wall (in 1989), middle east "peace talks" of 1990 and the beginning of the Guld War. I don't think that computers is the only fact that is feasible enough to determine the difference of generation y and z.

I am spending to much time on the computer again. It is addicting. Maybe there is a support group out there for me :-)!!!!!! Here is a x/y term for you "Happy Happy Happy Joy Joy......Happy Happy Happy Joy Joy........Happy Happy Happy Joy Joy (and ect) :-)

I think those generational date disputes should belong to Generation X and Y pages because they cover the 20 year perspective. This page only acknowledges 10 year generations or 10 year groups that fall in between two more dominant generations. I find this article very useful as it is more accurately descriptive of people born between mid70-mid80 rather than the broad generalizations made by the 20 year generations, which are too diluted and biased towards those born outside the 1975-85 group. Including those dates here would cause the group to split up again. r430nb

CARTOONS AND TOYS

Children (not teenagers) of the 1980s played with...

Dream Date Barbie doll Cabbage Patch Kids Garbage Pail Kids Care Bears My Little Pony Strawberry Shortcake Glowworm Rainbow Brite [external link edited for Wikipedia spam filter] [ stores ebay com/The-Lovey-Connection_80s-Toys-Stuff_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQftidZ2QQtZkm]

G.I. Joe: Action Force Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Transformers M.A.S.K. Masters of the Universe He-Man Legos Hot Wheels Superman The Hulk Batman California Raisins

[25]

Candyland Boardgame Slip'n'slide Crocodile Mile [26]

Alvin and the Chipmunks Around the World with Willy Fog Astro Boy Bagpuss Bananaman Batfink Battle of the Planets Bertha Bod Bravestarr Bucky O'Hare Button Moon Camberwick Green Captain Planet Care Bears Centurions Charlie Chalk Chip and Dale Rescue Rangers Cities of Gold Chorlton and the Wheelies The Clangers Count Duckula Crystal Tipps and Alistair Dangermouse Defenders of the Earth Denver the Last Dinosaur Dino Riders Dogtanian Ducktales Dungeons and Dragons Ewoks Family Ness The Flumps Fraggle Rock Funnybones G-Force Galaxy High Garfield & Friends The Get Along Gang Gummi Bears Hatty Town The Herbs He-Man Henry's Cat Inspector Gadget Ivor the Engine James the Cat Jamie and The Magic Torch Jayce and the Wheeled Warriors Jem Jimbo and the JetSet King Rollo Kissyfur The Magic Roundabout MASK The Moomins Morph Mr Benn Mr Men Muppet Babies My Little Pony Mysterious Cities of Gold Paddington Parsley the Lion Paw Paw Bears Penny Crayon Pigeon Street Poddington Peas Pole Position Postman Pat Popples The Raccoons Rainbow Brite Raggy Dolls The Real Ghostbusters Robotech Roobarb and Custard Sharkey and George She-Ra Space Sentinels Speed Racer The Shoe People The Smurfs Starcom Superted Stoppit and Tidyup Teddy Ruxpin Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles Telebugs Thomas the Tank Engine Thundercats Top Cat Towser Transformers Trap Door Trumpton Turbo Teen Thundercats Ulysses 31 Visionaries Wil Cwac Cwac Willo the Wisp Wuzzles [27]

Animal Crossing Balloon Fight Custom Robo Donkey Kong Duck Hunt Earthbound Excitebike Fire Emblem F-Zero Golden Sun Ice Climber Kid Icarus Kirby The Legend of Zelda Mach Rider Mario Brothers Metroid Pikmin Pok魯n Sonic the Hedgehog Star Fox super bomberman street fighter Wario zombies ate my neighbors [28]

Some things of the 90s - Looneytoons, Tiny Toons, Animaniacs, power rangers.... 21 Jump Street Aaahh!! Real Monsters Adventures of Pete & Pete, The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3, The Airwolf Alf All That (1995-1998) Animaniacs Animorphs Are You Afraid of the Dark? (1992-1996) A-Team, The Batman the Animated Series Beetlejuice Beverly Hills 90210 (NEW) Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction Big Bad Beetleborgs Bionic 6 Bobby's World Boy Meets World BraveStarr Bug Juice Bump in the Night Camp Candy Captain Bucky-O-Hare Captain N: The Game Master Captain Planet Centurions Challenge of the GoBots Clarissa Explains It All Denver the Last Dinosaur Dinosaurs Double Dare Eek! the Cat Eerie Indiana Eureka's Castle Family Matters Felix the Cat (90's version) Figure It Out Flash Forward Fraggle Rock Freakazoid Fresh Prince of Bel Air Full House Fun House Garfield and Friends Gargoyles Gargoyles: The Goliath Chronicals G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero Goosebumps Growing Pains Guts Hangin With Mr. Cooper Heathcliff He-Man and the Masters of the Universe Hey Dude Home Improvement Hysteria Invader Zim Land of the Lost (90's version) Legend of Zelda, The Legends of the Hidden Temple Life With Louie Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman Looney Toons (NEW) Major Dad Mega Man Mighty Max Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Mummies Alive! Muppet Babies, The Muppet Show, The Muppets Tonight! Mystery Files of Shelby Woo, The Mystic Knights of Tir Na Nog New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh, The New Alvin and the Chipmunks, The New Super Mario World, The Nick Arcade Pink Panther (original series) Pirates of Dark Water Prince Valiant Real Ghost Busters, The Reboot Ren & Stimpy (90's version) Rescue 911 (NEW) Rin Tin Tin: K-9 Cop Rocko's Modern Life Rocky & Bullwinkle Show, The Round House Round the Twist Salute Your Shorts Sam & Max: Freelance Police! Saved By The Bell Secret World of Alex Mack, The Sister, Sister Sliders Snorks So Weird Sonic the Hedgehog Space Cases Spider-Man (NEW) Step-by-Step Street Sharks Super Mario Bros. Super Show, The Superhuman Samurai Syber Squad Sweet Valley High Tales From The Cryptkeeper Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (90's version), 2 Thundercats Tiny Toon Adventures Transformers Underdog VR Troopers WeinerVille Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego? Wild & Crazy Kids Wild West Cowboys of Moo Mesa, The Wish Kid Wishbone World of David the Gnome, The X-Men You Can't Do That on Television Young Hercules

Felix the Cat A Pup Named Scooby Doo Alf All manner of Looney Tunes and Hanna Barbera cartoons Alvin and the Chipmunks Animaniacs Astroboy Babar Batman Belle and Sebastian Betty Boop <3 Biker Mice from Mars Bots Master Bravestar Bucky O'Hare C.O.P.S. Capitol Critters Cap'n OG Readmore Captain Caveman & the Teen Angels Captain N Captain Planet Captain Simian and Space Monkeys Captian Future Care Bears Care Bears Casper the Friendly Ghost Centurians Charlie Brown / Snoopy Chip And Dale: Rescue Rangers Chip and Dale's Rescue Rangers Count Duckula Cyber-six Danger Mouse Danger Mouse Darkstalkers Darkwing Duck David the Gnome Dinky Dog Dinosaucers Dog of Flanders Don Quixote Del La Mancha Duck Tales Duck Tales Earthworm Jim Eek! The Cat and Terrible Thunderlizards Fantastic Four Fat Albert & the Cosby Show Fireman Sam Fish Police Flintstones Flower Girl Lun-Lun Fraggle Rock Freakazoid G.I. Joe Garfield and Friends Garfield And Friends Gargoyles George of the Jungle G-Force Ghostbusters Ghostbusters Gidget? I think that's what it's called. It's with the little purple martian. >.>' GoBots Goof Troop Gummi Bears Gummi Bears Heathcliffe Heckle & Jeckle He-Man Hong Kong Fooey Inspector Gadget Jem and Holograms Johnny Quest King Arthur and the Knights of Justice Laurel & Hardy Legend of Zelda Little Lulu Mega Man Mighty Max Mighty Mouse <3 Mr. Magoo!!! My Little Ponies Mysterious City of Gold Pancione: The Genie Family Pink Panther <3 Pirates of Dark Water Popeye Postman Pat Power Rangers Rainbow Brite Raw Toonage Reboot Redwall Richy Rich Rocko's Modern Life Rocky and Bullwinkle Ronin Warriors Rude Dog and Dweebs Samurai Pizza Cats Scooby Doo Scooby-Doo, where are you? She-Ra Shirt Tales Silverhawks Smurfs Snorks Sonic the Hedgehog (both versions) Space Ghost Sparticus Speedracer Spider-man Star Fleet Strawberry Shortcake Street Fighter Street Sharks Stunt Dawgs Super Friends Super Human Samurai Cyber Squad Super Mario Bros. SWAT Kats Tailspin Tchaou & Grodo Teddy Ruxpin Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Tekno Man The Adamms Family The Adventures of Batman The Alvin Show The Clangers The Cowboys of Moo-Mesa The Fantastic Four The Funny Company The Jetsons The Littles The Littles The Noozles The Pink Panther The Popples The Raccoons The Simpsons (1989) The Snorks The Tick The World of David the Gnome Thundercats Tiger Mask Tin Tin Tiny Toons Transformers T-Rex Ultraman Voltron Watership Down Woodywood Pecker <3 X-men

Anime: Akira, Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball Z, and Ranma ½.

I also have no idea about what has influenced Gen Y. r430nb

Good stuff r430nb, I was actually planning on making a list of prominent cartoons during the 80s, but instead we could piece together something of a paragraph on the above list you put together. Perhaps with reference to some of the most notable cartoons. And also make passing mention to the toys and other paraphenelia around during the 80s up until mid 90s that was prevalent during the generation. I'll get cracking on that as soon as. Piecraft 18:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to find the popular ones, too. r430nb

Oh, here is one more link Saturday morning cartoon

Do you think "Generation Kill" should also be included? It was written by Evan Wright (Title Generation kill : Devil Dogs, Iceman, Captain America, and the new face of American war) ISBN 0399151931 The theory of generations is mostly focused on war and revolutions.

[29] says that soldiers today are very different from soldiers in the past as a result of their generational upbringing. "These young men represent what is more or less America's first generation of disposable children."r430nb

Way Too Much Original Research.....

Wow! Who wrote this article? What an embarassment.... anyway, I removed a lot of original research from this article, and put the real meaning of MTV Generation. 63.153.123.172 15:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow you're a vandal and completely irresponsible! Hogwash, this article is backed up with the sources (more than those for the Gen X article), and the term to which YOU have "originally" adapted the MTV Generation term to is different to the actual Generation term describing a sub-group of individuals caught between Gen Y and X. SOme advice as you're new here, don't drastically change or modify an article without taking it up here first, and also when you haven't researched enough or understood the subject matter. Thanks Piecraft 19:21, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Needs re-editing

An overview of the crime and drug culture related to the XY Gen throughout the 1990s with added insight on the media antagonism that developed from these trends of the MTV Gen youth.

Crime in the early 1990s

Crime and drugs are not unique to any generation, however, the crime rate was extremely high in the 1990s and XYers were being exposed to it at an immature age unlike Generation X. In addition, XYers specifically became a target of negative stereotypes. During the late 1980s, there was a recession. Throughout the world, crime rates rose. In America, a crime bomb had exploded in 1988. [30] [31] [32]

During this period, late Xers born mid 70s were entering adolescence. Naturally, criminologists would have predicted that this group of people would not be a threat until later on when they reached mid teens (15-17). However, crime statistics on numbers of arrests showed that adolescents were being pulled in to crime rings and being arrested in record numbers. The arrests adolescents increased year by year. Criminologists were baffled. Then, in 1992, the 1992 Los Angeles riots occurred. In 1992, people under 18 (born after 1974) accounted for 13% of all violent crimes reported and 18% of all violent crime arrests. They were responsible for: 9 percent of murders; 12 percent of aggravated assaults; 14 percent of forcible rapes; 16 percent of robberies; 20 percent of burglaries; 23 percent of larceny-thefts; 24 percent of motor vehicle thefts; and 42 percent of arsons. [33]

The arrests increased until finally, in 1994, it reached it's highest peak with those adolescents born 1976-1982. This was a cause for concern. Criminologists rushed to find an explanation of adolescent participation. Some suggested neglect. Follow-up studies of children who had cases of substantiated abuse or neglect found that 26 percent of the children were later arrested as minors. [34]

Others pointed to an epidemic of crack cocaine that fueled urban violence, as well as high unemployment and declining economic prospects for low-skilled workers, especially among minority groups. [35] But the increase in adolescent arrests was a new issue, which couldn't be explained by old causes. Jeremy Travis, Director of the National Institute of Justice, vividly recalls, feeling confident about watching crime rates fall in the 80s. But then "rock" appeared on the West Coast -- a form of smokeable cocaine. Prof. Alfred Blumstein of Carnegie Mellon University has a hypothesis called the "diffusion hypothesis:" that as new crack entrepreneurs were setting up business, taking over turf previously dominated by others, they recruited young people as sellers and middle managers, then these low level dealers needed guns to defend themselves, and the guns, once in the hands of impulsive adolescents, quickly "diffused" into the youth culture so that garden variety adolescent squabbles over girlfriends and valued clothing got settled by gunfire. [36]

Another cause was influence of peers or membership in a group. [37] Young people who join gangs are four to six times more likely to engage in criminal behavior when they are gang members than when they are not. [38] Modern gangs became a public concern in the 60s because of the increases in violence, but the issue itself was largely ignored by government officials. They chose instead to focus on juvenile delinquency and other issues. Gangs must not have been big enough back then, but the 90s was a different story. As 1990 came around, the youth gang population grew like never before and was the subject of daily news and community meetings everywhere. However, the gang population continued to grow throughout the early 90s. The issue was so great that government officials couldn't ignore it any longer. They set up separate agencies and research projects specifically on gangs. The increase in gangs somewhat increased along with the rise in arrest rates. [39] [40] [41] Gangs of the 90s are also shown in the HBO documentary “Gang Wars: Banging in Little Rock" (1994), Skinheads USA: Soldiers of the Race War (1993), and books such as East Side Stories: Gang Life in East LA (1998), Cold new world : growing up in a harder country (1998). For 1993, the conservative estimate of nationwide gang-crime activity, based on law enforcement reports, is 8,625 gangs, 378,807 gang members, and 437,066 gang-related crimes. This was an increase from 1991 estimates. [42]

On the other hand, many people under 18 were also being victimized by their peers. Between 1987 and 1991, the risk that a person between the ages of 12 and 17 (Born 1974-1979) would become a victim of a crime increased 17%. Most of their victims are friends or acquaintances (53%), strangers (32%), and family members (15%). [43] After 1988, the yearly number of people under 18 being murdered rose above 1000. [44] By 1994, 25% of all crimes had victims under 18 (Born 1977-1983). 60% of victims between the ages of 12 and 19 (1975-1983) were attacked by someone between the ages of 12 and 20 (83% with weapons and 27% being seriously injured). In addition, four times as many minors were killed with a gun in 1994 than in 1984. [45] [46]

As a result of the crime wave of 1994, the public was now definitely scared of youth. The media even predicted a new cohort of “super-predators” based on what had happened between 1988-1994. "Conservative academics such as James Q. Wilson and John DiIulio and a small band of mainstream criminologists such as Alfred Blumstein and James Fox forecasted societal disaster. Wilson predicted “30,000 more young muggers, killers, and thieves”; DiIulio in 1990 foresaw another 270,000 violent juveniles by 2010. He warned of a “crime bomb” created by a generation of “fatherless, godless, and jobless [juvenile] super-predators.” The media hyped the story, and many elected officials exploited it. The citizenry was told about a generation of babies, born to “crack-addicted” mothers, who would possess permanent neurological damage, including the inability to feel empathy. The scientific evidence supporting this claim was nonexistent. More than 40 states made it easier to transfer children to adult criminal courts." [47]

As a result, early Y criminals had a tougher time in court than Late Xers. In 1998, juveniles (1981-6) were more 3 times more likely than adults to be charged with a violent felony. [48] "Educators enacted “zero-tolerance” policies to make it easier to expel youngsters from school, and numerous communities adopted youth curfews. Many jurisdictions turned to metal detectors in public schools, random locker searches, drug tests for athletes, and mandatory school uniforms. The panic was bipartisan. Every crime bill debated by Congress during the Clinton administration included new federal laws against juvenile crime. Paradoxically, as Attorney General Janet Reno advocated for wider and stronger social safety nets for vulnerable families, President Bill Clinton joined congressional leaders demanding tougher treatment of juvenile felons, including more incarceration in both the adult and youth correctional systems." They also used youth correctional boot camps or “scared straight” programs that use prison visits to try to frighten youngsters away from criminal lives. [49] [50]

Likewise, the crime rate was also high in the schools. [51] Schools implemented methods to prevent crime (listed in order of most used to least used) suspension, student conduct/discipline code, collaboration with other agencies, expulsion, school board policy, alternative programs or schools, staff development, and conflict resolution/mediation. Other used by a minority of schools were training/peer mediation, locker searches, closed campus for lunch, mentoring programs, home-school linkages, dress code, law-related education programs, multicultural sensitivity training, parent skill training, search and seizure, security personnel in schools, support groups, student photo identification system, gun-free school zones, specialized Curriculum, drug-detecting dogs, work opportunities, telephones in classrooms, metal detectors, volunteer parent patrols, closed-circuit television, establishing safe havens for students. [52] Unlike Generation Y, which had never questioned the presence of metal detectors and other safety precautions in school, XYers were present during their installation and inception, leading them to question whether it was for their own protection or for society's protection against XYers.

Cultural influences of crime in the early 1990s

Whereas Generation X was criticized as so wild and stupid as to put the nation at risk, XYers were feared as violent and destructive harbingers of a cold new world. As a result, they have been specifically criminalized, frisked, searched, and feared by society and each other resulting in a culture of resentment and antagonism towards society. In addition, the experience or the perception of danger from peers has made them antagonistic and distrustful towards each other, yet extremely protective over their own friends and family. Since they were exposed to violence and destruction at an immature age, either on TV or in reality, they were likely to misinterpret the causes or rationale of what was happening. They viewed the world with fear because of the chaos and inability of authorities to control the situation. Media antagonism also caused self hatred [53] [54] [55] In contrast, Generation X would have been mature enough to understand that the situation in the early 90s was only temporary and understood its causes. The sources of resentment in the two groups are different. Generation X gets its resentment from being the forgotten latchkey teens of the 80s. They were affected by the continual bombardment of images of the nuclear family and feelings of inadequacy and isolation from society resulted. On the other hand, XYers were not bombarded by images of the nuclear family as teens [56] [57] [58] [59] and by the 1990s, the traditional family was portrayed as a norm of a long forgotten past [60]. The overall cause of resentment in XYers was from being spotlighted and treated as criminals during the early 1990s.

Media antagonism of the late 1990s

During the late 1990s, there were a rising trend in school shootings, which created widespread panic because unlike the early 90s, there was no longer a direct correlation between school shootings and societal crime rates (which were falling). Some identified it as a disfunctional generational side effect of bad parenting. XYers were now, in the late 90s, portrayed as incorrectly raised and as a result, psychologically troubled and potentially lethal. [61] [62] Others blamed popular culture of the 90s, such as the internet, music, and violent video games such as "Doom." XYers were under constant watch for being "anti-social" and "odd," amongst other common traits of shooters. [63] [64] The threat of being punished for not conforming to the mainstream lifestyle (as opposed to alternative culture) and facade of team-player, wholesomeness, friendliness, and innocence was real, some being sent to jail. Many XYers viewed that authorities were violating freedom of expression. [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] However, many still complied for fear of being accused. [70] This is unlike Generation X, which were able to express their true cynicism through media and lifestyles.

Bad press about this generation continued throughout the late 90s [71] In the Woodstock 1999 concert teenagers were blamed for the violence that occurred [72] [73] [74]. In the 1999 Seattle protests of the WTO, many of the protesters who got beaten and arrested were XYers. Paul Richmond says "While the demonstrators were fairly well organized, many of the organizers of the civil disobedience were young, in their teens and early twenties." [75] This only led teens and early twenties to feel that nothing was wrong with society, but with their peers only, creating a heightened sense of fear amongst each other [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] and fear from their own parents[82].

At the turn of the century, colleges then made a big show over those seeking therapy, causing psychologists to call XYers the "Therapy Generation," showboating XYers as psychologically disturbed. [83] [84] [85] However, Jean Twenge, an American psychologist found that all "Americans have shifted toward substantially higher levels of anxiety and neuroticism during recent decades." XYers were only unique in that they were only exposed to stress at such an early age and it could have impacted their personality development. She found that "The average American child in the 1980s reported more anxiety than child psychiatric patients in the 1950s. Correlations with social indices (e.g., divorce rates, crime rates) suggest that decreases in social connectedness and increases in environmental dangers may be responsible for the rise in anxiety. Economic factors, however, seem to play little role. Birth cohort, as a proxy for broad social trends, may be an important influence on personality development, especially during childhood." [86] If anything, XYers had learned during childhood that having anxiety was a fact of life. They had always accepted it as a normal problem to deal with and put out in public. Hence, the rise in XY therapy visits and resulting shock from older generations that were accustomed to hiding and denying their own psychological problems. [87]

Okay

This page is bullshit. I was born in 1985 and I hate MTV. How can I be part of the MTV Generation? Oh Yeah, because there is none.

Are you referring to the old school MTV or the current MTV? Because I also detest the current MTV before Generation Y kicked in. The MTV Gen is a real sub-generation, and it refers to the MTV that existed from 1981-1995 And this page is not bullshit, it is a name given to a generation that borrowed the term from a culutral phenomenon during the 80s to mid 90s. Piecraft 22:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am referring to the current MTV. I use to watch MTV with my parents when I was like 4 (1989), and the channel stayed good until about 1998-1999. You're probably right that there is a MTV generation, I'm just not sure if people born in 1984-1985 should be included in it. That's actually what I meant, but I was having a bad day. I mean with most of my friends, myself included, MTV didn't have any cultural impact about 1998-1999 (our teen years). Of course, by the time we were about 16-17, we realized it was a bullshit channel.

The thing is you and your friends probably didn't realise it but it in fact did have more of an impact in our world, lifestyle, fashion, media and culture without you really noticing. For instance everything you know you grew up with from the early 80s up until the mid 90s was infused and influenced through the propogation of a new medium i.e. music videos are one scenario, a worldwide news corporation i.e. CNN (information gradually becoming available at our fingertips), the launch of numaerious primitive and adapted information highway programs via the Internet i.e. ICQ, AIM and so on... it also bears a heavy relevance to the nuance of despair that emanated from our predecessors Gen X, along witht he anxiety of Gen Y - but we were "caught in the middle" sort of like "meh!" we're not categorized and nobody really, feeling out of place feeling as though we had not contributed nor nothing influenced us really that much. In a way we are truly a Second Lost Generation, but the fact is ours reminas pivotal during the launch of all these different elements which actually do play an important factor to our development as you said o yourself: "MTV is crap now" because you remember a time when it was in fact good, and relevant. But thanks for your feedbakc nonetheless, these are generations they don't always define everybody clearly. Piecraft 13:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

All right, I agree that this is a great page. Good job. Don't delete it. However, could the title be changed. I mean, I understand the reasons for calling us the MTV Generation, it's just that calling us that still associates us with MTV, and, we both agreed it sucks now. I personally thought Cold Y wasn't a bad title.

Other terms that define the sub-generation are listed in bold, however the only reason we use MTV Generation as the title is simply because it has been the definitive term that has been around longer and in wider circulation through the media etc... but feel free to alter the article or expanding it in regards to the issues we discussed about. Piecraft 17:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Additional Generation Bias Concerns

(I had posted this further up in the disucssion but it appears it went unnoticed, hence I am moving it to a new section) I believe there might be a POV issue with this section of the article (if not other parts of the article). There appears to be a significant amount of research for this section (accounting for cites 34 through 41), however these cites amount to self-help book links, "top ten" and similar examples of '90s pop culture, and an abstract ("Effects of violent video games on aggressive behavior, aggressive cognition, aggressive affect, physiological arousal, and prosocial aehavior: A meta-analytic review of the scientific literature") from a psychology professor (Craig A. Anderson, mentioned here) that appears to have focused on a link between aggressive behavior and violent video games. Moreover, the langauge of this section ("Generation X would have been mature enough to understand that the situation in the, early 90s was only temporary and understood its causes") and throughout other parts of the entire article, appear to have an aggressive if not disappointed tone regarding Generation XY/ the MTV Generation. From my understanding, such evaluations should not included in the articles (such as "The Baby Boomers were only interested in themselves, hence Generation X has been left stunted because the Boomers selfishly squandered their time and energy on themselves instead of raising the X'ers). It is possible that I am reading too much into the article, but I do feel it is, at the very least, not a neutral tone. If I am coming out of left field on this one, please let me know. rminer25

Thanks for reading it, I took out the section and will edit it until it is good to go back out. I didn't notice it until now, but the only comment I see up there is from Sluggoster. Sorry about not seeing that sooner and being so biased. Are you Sluggoster, too? I can't do anything about the Baby Boomer insult because that is not from this article and I don't think anything like that would be included here as I don't hold a grudge towards Boomers. R430nb2 23:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Piecraft, I'm taking out that section for a while. Dude said it's too biased and condescending. Anyway it looks better that way. R430nb2 02:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nope, I'm not Sluggoster (my apologies for seeing this so late). I used the Boomer insult as an analogy; I was afraid I wouldn't express myself correctly. I appreciate the editing being done on the article; I just have a thing for neutrality regarding articles like this. Rminer25 00:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Early Y/Cold Y Section Deletion

I deleted the great majority of the cold generation Y portion of the article. It's completely unsourced and filled with nonsense, buzzwords, and what I'm assuming is original research. If someone wants to put it back in the article, but with acceptable citations from notable sources, that would be unlikely but acceptable.

As it is right now, cold generation Y gives only 107 google hits, the top 5 of which are all wikipedia or wikipedia related. If someone wants to make another bold edit and delete the whole section, I would be in favor. Detruncate 22:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You say it was in an essay you read in sociology class. However, it's still a giant unsourced non-notable chunk of POV text. Seeing as I left a comment in the talk page explaining my reasoning, it was clearly not a "page blanking or vandalism" as you described it in your revert. Please don't add it back into the article without some actual notable sources, however interesting and notable you personally may feel the essay is. Thank you. --Detruncate 22:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I think we may have crossed our wires here. I did not write that particular element of the article, but I did revert it back not due to your reason but there were other users who were constantly blanking or deleting other areas of the article, this was the reason for my revert. Looking back I see I accidentally added you into it, that was my bad. I agree, that area of the article was unsourced, however the author to that "essay" did say they would add references and notable links to it, I assumed it had beeen done. Thank you for pointing this out. Piecraft 03:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks for taking the time to explain. Chalk another one up for assuming good faith. Detruncate 01:24, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Doom vs MTV

I was born in 1980 and after reading it, I find this article fits me quite well. I believe this was the "tail end" of generation X, because I also share many of the traits that make up Gen X, which seems to end somewhere from 1978 to 1981 in book sources I have read. Yet I don't share movie, music and cartoon interests with the usual Gen X fare. This article was very useful to me.

I did want to say that I didn't feel very influenced by MTV. Video games were my thing and you could say the Doomguy was my hero. I spent many years playing that game along with Sonic and Mario fare. I also grew up with the internet in my school and home, and this left a huge mark.

It's weird on Wikipedia I don't see a mention of the Millenial generation i read about in the book "Andrew Rollings and Ernest Adams on Game Design". The generation's description in that book seemed to reveal the group that is playing games like Everquest and other group oriented games, contrasting strongly with Generation X's loner mentality. Time magazine did an article on these people as well, which is documented in the book I just mentioned. The authors are IGDA bigwigs.

Good job with the article, it allowed me to reflect and laugh a little bit too.

Oh and I noticed some movies were left out that had a great impact on me:

Jurassic Park (1993, Stephen Spielberg) (My whole neighborhood was literally obsessed with dinosaurs for almost six months)

Mortal Kombat - The video game and the movie both were really popular in my highschool class...the public was in an uproar over the heart and spine ripping attacks, and I played it constantly. I remember being scrutinized by relatives after a big tv/magazine expose came out about it.

Naomichanart 19:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, the reason for it being referred to as MTV Gen, is explained at the start of the article, there are many people who partake Gen MTV who did not necessarily grow up with MTV, the fact is however it is the definitive term employed by the majority of those growing up during that time, as well as by the media, society and both Gen X/Y to define the gap. Piecraft 00:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The irony of the label

I'd love to see numbers or research on just how many of the people who would fit this description and did love/watch MTV and considered it a fundamental human right (in the face of many parents who restricted it) still watch the channel today. (Though it could be said that Viacom has moved us over to VH1. Dunno where the former VH1 audience got moved to.) - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 19:58, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

XM/Sirius Radio? 208.24.252.14 01:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Apparently this generation doesn't got alot of people.

Most of the people in this generation were from the 70s but an estimate tells me that they were only 4000 people born in the 70s and 1 million in the 80s.

:Thus the reason it is a "generation gap". 87.80.188.3 13:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Movies associated with the generation

This section is getting out of hand. What should the criteria for inclusion be for a movie to be associated with the generation? Right now it seems like any movie made since the 80s could be included. A criteria needs to be set or this will get out of hand. Should it be movies that the generation grew up watching (which would then encompass movies from the early 80s to the late 90s), movies about the generation (which would each have to be evaluated, but most likely movies in the late 90s and early 00s), or movies created by or starring people from the generation (which would be movies from the early 90s to now)? The list is too long right now, anyone have an opinion? If not I might start cutting some out soon before the list becomes too big a part of the article. Phydend 04:01, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

And even then you're going to have to go back a little earlier to catch movies that got onto videotape and reruns. I was born in 1979 and I grew up watching "The Empire Strikes Back".204.52.215.107 (talk) 08:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Early/Cold Y, Generation gap, 1977-81, (BET Generation?)

I think the generation gap spans what Tulgan describes as (the first wave of) Gen Y, 1977-1983. '84 can fit in there, as I grew up with kids born as late as '84. This group shares similar sensibilities, coming of age mostly in the 80s and 90s.

It can be broken down further into 4-year spans - 1977-81, and 1982-85.

1985 is the absolute cutoff for this hybrid group, if it is to be included at all..

BET had a huge effect on teens of the 90s. It should be discussed in this article.

I think 1976 is the final year for Generation X, and 1986 is the really true beginning of Geneneration Y.

jlh629 05:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

fringe theory

This is a fringe theory and as far as I can tell none of the references are from a RS other than the inventors of the neologism, Strauss and Howe . I've tagged the article accordingly, and will edit accordingly. It alternatively might be appropriate to delete it, depending on what happens to the other articles on this theory.DGG (talk) 22:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Please don't delete this!

Although I myself might be slightly too old to be a member, I love this generation. Right now (2007), it includes most of those people born in the 1970s and 1980s, who are currently in their 20s or early 30s. In a nutshell, it's the people who "came of age" in the 1990s (and perhaps the early 2000s). I believe it is distinctly different from the older members of Generation X/The Baby Bust, yet, still somehow a part of it. As far as it being a "fringe theory", I don't see how, unless one considers all of generation theorism to be fringe, but as far as Generations Theory goes, Strauss and Howe are the gold standard. Shanoman 21:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that I don't think this article should be deleted, but the name... MTV Generation?! I'd accept "TV Generation" or XY Cuspers more than MTV. It's had as much influence on me and others I know in my age group as Wheel of Fortune: it's still on, but it was a lot more fun when we were younger. I think it's the stigma of MTV is what's irritating people.

All the same, a case in point why neologisms are bad for Wikipedia. Once they're on here, they're a pain to kill off. 208.24.252.14 01:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Please express your opinions regarding deletion at the deletion discussion page. --ZimZalaBim ^talk 01:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'd settle for "XY Cuspers", or even "Video Game Generation" before I would accept a mere "TV Generation", which would be vague enough to include the Babyboomers, Generation Jones, and the Baby Busters, since TV has been common in homes since the 1950s. Maybe not everyone in this age group admits to actually "liking" MTV or think its cool, but it's hard to deny the influence that music videos have had on people of this age range; people older mostly did not have or watch music videos, while people younger have a much wider range of entertainment options (computers, internet, ipod, etc.). Since most of the generational terminology comes from Strauss & Howe, I believe this article should stand, albeit it definitely needs some cleaning up. My stance is: better to have an imperfect or even a bad article than no article at all. Shanoman 18:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Movies, music, tech sections

I removed these laundry lists as they were arbitrary, uncited, and original research. Nothing like that should be added unless there are citations from reliable sources connecting them directly to the "MTV Generation". --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Simpson's quote

Let's move it elsewhere, maybe the end It sort of sums up the subject perfectly. DGG (talk) 20:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I see another ed did not think so & removed it without discussion. I'm not going to fight for it though, but if anyone else likes it, feel free to revert per WP:BOLD DGG (talk) 10:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

succession box

It seems to be the consensus here that the Strauss&Howe theory is not generally accepted, and that the use of this term is much broader and different from what they proposed. These boxes have been removed from most of all of the articles by now. (as have most of their "generations" except where the name is in use otherwise.DGG (talk) 10:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring of "generation" articles proposal - what do you think?

I am surprised that the bulk of this article was removed. There is definitely an "in between" generation between X and Y. I was born in 1984. I owned tapes and even records in my childhood. My family got their first IBM-compatible PC when I was in kindergarten (1990). I didn't have Internet access until 7th grade (1997). The old article mentioned this sort of thing if I remember correctly.

Most of the games, TV, music, and movies (Simpsons, Oregon Trail, grunge, rap, etc.) from the old article apply to me.

I don't identify with either generation, really (probably more with Gen-X), and neither does anyone in my age bracket. My sister (born 1989), on the other hand, fits the Gen-Y article almost completely.

Then again, when I was going to school, a professor told me that Gen-X ended in 1984, with Gen-Y beginning in '85.

I think we shouldn't go by Strauss and Howe and instead go by culture. For example, "MTV Generation" and "iPod Generation," both of which are more specific to the culture and nationality. "Generation X" and "Generation Y" should refer specifically to Strauss' and Howe's theories. -RedBlade7 (talk) 07:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

you are going to need sources other than personal experience. If you do, use them to expand the articles. You are right that the effort so far has to get this pseudo-social science theory out of the articles, and it might be time to think about whether they can be added to in a more NPOV manner. but first, get some published reliable sources. DGG (talk) 04:05, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Remove the "MTV" label - Too specific a title for this group

I agree this group should be called the Gen XY, or the XY cusp, and not MTV Gen. MTV was watched by Gen X, not Gen XY. I rarely watched MTV growing up. It was corny.

MTV is too specific a label to be applied to this generation. It distorts the actual influence of MTV. Again we should be called the aforementioned titles or Gen Jones.

MTV was not as great an influence compared to the TV shows, cartoons, video games, comics etc., (ie. Transformers, CareBears, Nintendo, Akira, etc.) that Gen XY watched and read coming of age in the late 80s - mid 90s.

jlh629 (talk) 16:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, when people started using the term "MTV Generation", they didn't travel forward in time to get permission from all of you to use the term. Sorry, there's really nothing you can do about that, short of building a time machine. However, I have also heard this generation referred to as the XY generation or the XY cusp, so that should probably be noted in the article. Generation Jones doesn't enter into it, since that refers to the baby boomers/generation X cusp (one cusp earlier than the MTV generation). --Skrapion (talk) 06:52, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Just because some ppl didnt grow up specifically watching MTV, doesnt mean they werent a part of the MTV generation. Not everyone was into music videos and thats understandable.Portillo (talk) 07:34, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

What does 9/11 have to do with the MTV Generation? Shouldn't that be a seperate article? This article feels like all the useful information has been snipped out of it, leaving nothing but a dead husk. 69.86.235.225 (talk) 16:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the whole "Generation 9/11" bit is very silly. It is fine to talk about the cultural impact 9/11 had on XY but to throw a new title into the mix is stupid. There are so many titles floating around already, I'm wondering when people are going to wake up and just name this page Generation XY, which is what it is, and what everyone refers to it as. Generation 9/11, Cold Y, Millennials, ipod generation blah blah blah, these are all titles coined by individuals based on their own opinions/tastes. 'Generation XY' and let it be the end of it, or 'Generation XY Cusp' if you really want to be picky about it. Moving on. (Just my 2 cents, I'm pretty sure a lot of people would agree going by what's been said on this very page.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.148.134 (talk) 08:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Outside recognition

I hope no one minds but I rewrote the definition, history, and reference sections to incorporate a half-dozen outside sources to lend crediability to the idea of a mid-70's to mid 80's age group. Although I'm not sure if it meets the definition of a full generation, I as a member (born in 1976) do believe in it's existance as a distinct age cohort along the lines of Generation Jones. I think what unites us is that we fall in between the more widely known stereotypes of the older 80's core Gen Xrs and the "Techpop" teens of today. Or in other words were between the Bratpack and Barney.

In case my original sources get cut or "lost" in up coming editions, here is a list of experts who directly or indirectly suggest the existance of a Mid 70's to Mid 80's age cohort.

• "When Generations Collide- Who they are. Why they clash. How to solve the generational puzzle at work. Lancaster, Stillman. 2002 New York. Ch. 3 Pg. 38
• "Generations at Work- Managing the clash between Veterans, Boomers, Xrs, and Nexters in your workplace. Zemke, Raines, Filipczak. 2000 New York Ch. 4 Pg. 105
• "Joshua Glenn .The Net Generation. WWW.Boston.com. Retrieved June 25th, 2008 http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/brainiac/2008/03/net_generation.html
• "United States Dominate Generations. CensusScope. Retrieved June 25th, 2008 http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_generations.html
• "Who's filling Gen Y's Shoes"? by Pete Markiewicz. BrandChannel.com, Retrieved June 25th 2008. http://www.brandchannel.com/features_effect.asp?pf_id=156

Wyn (talk) 00:23, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

MTV Generation defined by Gulf War 1? Where is the sources for this? Gen X (1965-@1981)fought this war, not Vietnam as the article states. MTV Generation would not have been old enough.

86.9.196.239 (talk) 16:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposed Merger to Generation Y

After reviewing this article, I find that not a single one of the listed sources actually talks about MTV Generation as a phenomenon wholly separate from Generation Y. They all either say that MTV Gen and Gen Y are interchangeable, or in many case don't mention MTV Generation at all. In my scanning of google hits, I really can't find any sources that don't use it as a synonym for Gen Y, or as a sort of catch all for any young person. It really doesn't seem to be a stand alone concept. I propose we merge it into Generation Y. It seems that Wikipedia policy suggest that we discuss at Talk:Generation Y Peregrine981. (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

They also don't talk about the MTV Generation as a phenomenon wholly separate from Generation X. That's kind of the point. --Skrapion (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

OK, Gen Y includes but is not limited to the MTV Generation. The latter is a distinctive subclass of the former, since not everyone in Gen Y is "is perceived to have been heavily influenced by 1990s era popular culture in general and mass media in particular". And not all in Gen Y belong "in a peculiar, homogenous youth culture defined by a deep appreciation of the fashion trends, perspective, attitude and music popularized by MTV and similar media (Viva, Triple J etc.) that rose to prominence in the late 1980s." I believe it shouldn't be merged and the template should be deleted. Gregorik (talk) 20:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In accordance with wikipedia policy, I think we should hold the main discussion at Talk:Generation Y#Proposed Merger of MTV Generation into this article. You will have to find reliable sources to support your contention that MTVGen is really unified concept, that is widely understood as such.Peregrine981 (talk) 17:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)