Talk:Maarakeh bombing

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Fabrication[edit]

The reliable sources in the article, like Washington Post and New York Times, do not say this was an Israeli action. They say Shiite leaders claim this, while Israel denies this and says this was an internal Shiite squabble.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC) sock[reply]

These sources you mentioned say that the attack happened hours only after Israel left, and also say that IDF raided a hospital one hour lated and arrested blood doners. Other reliable sources also say that Israel that planted the bomb. I covered the Israeli denial in "Aftermath", as well as the Lebanese and Amal claim. -- Maudslay II (talk) 16:29, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I personally say that Israel didn't do it but might had some ties with it. But I say we just close this discussion, it's gonna get bad if we continue. DXLB Muzikant (talk) 16:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Reliable sources say it planted it. An Israeli official said it not. Of course I covered his claim, but he's not a trusted source. -- Maudslay II (talk) 16:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I said we need to close this discussion...... DXLB Muzikant (talk) 16:46, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We close it through discussion. How else? -- Maudslay II (talk) 16:48, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Let's go back to basics, WP works on the basis of what reliable sources say, not what we think they say, what they actually say. Let's make sure we are doing that. Where is the independent third party source that says "Israel planted the bomb". Is there one?Selfstudier (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are none. All there are all Lebanese claims. The very first sentence is now "The Maarakeh massacre took place on 4 March 1985, when Israel Defence Forces bombed a local mosque in the southern Lebanese village of Maarakeh". It cites csmonitor that is on a different incident, but says "Lebanese Cabinet ministers and the Shiite Amal movement blamed Israel for the Beirut bombing, and for a bombing last week of a Shiite mosque in the south Lebanese village of Maarakeh. The Israelis denied involvement in the bombings.". Saying Israel did it is a fabrication, the source does not say that.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 17:05, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Maudslay II: The Fisk source? I will copy here what that says:

A bomb exploded on the roof of Jerardi's office on 4 March 1985. It killed almost all the resistance leaders: Jerardi, Sa'ad and ten other guerrillas were blown apart. Almost the entireF rench UN battalion was drafted into Maarakeh to hold back the screaming crowds and dig through the rubble. The French found pieces of the electrical mechanism of the bomb, parts of which read `Minnesota Mining Company'. It had been manufactured in West Germany.`This is the work of Israel,' one of Jerardi's colleagues shouted.`The Israeli soldiers placed this bomb when they left Maarakeh.' The French intelligence officers who moved into Maarakeh agreed. `If you're talking about guerrilla warfare,' one of them said to me, `this is perfect terrorism - orcounter-terrorism. This is what we did in Algeria.'

Is this what you are relying on?Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So a couple of French intel officer on the ground thought it likely, because Lebanon was like Algeria, according to Fisk? That's not close to fact, not even Fisk is calling this fact. Fisk does state that the slain were guerrilla fighters, and that what was bombed was the office of a guerrilla leader that was located on the top of the Hussainiya. The current article plays this out as if they were all innocent civilians.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 17:20, 22 April 2021 (UTC) sock[reply]
I don't think there is a deliberate intent to fabricate here, at least I hope not. It seems more like an overenthusiastic interpretation of what the sources are saying.Selfstudier (talk) 17:25, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Journalist Nicholas Blanford: "(...) in Marakeh when a bomb — planted by the Israelis during the earlier raid"[1]
:* Although this is an opinion piece and we need to attribute it, I think we can consider him as an "expert" (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/expert/nicholas-blanford/) and his opinion carries some weight. He states it as a fact (in his opinion).Selfstudier (talk) 13:00, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Reuters report: "Two days after their (IDF) arrival there a massive car bomb ripped through the village's religious centre, killing 11 people and wounding 40 others"[2] 

:* This does not say the Israelis did it.Selfstudier (talk) 13:02, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Historian Fadi Higazi: " (...) occupation forces blew up a Husaynia"[3] 

:*Fahd Hegazy I cannot easily find much about him although the Al Manhal repository looks reliable. The book seems to be a history book. I cannot read/translate the text although it states it as a fact. I do not know enough myself to be able to say if this is a reliable source. Anyone? Selfstudier (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sociologist, researcher and academic Khalil Ahmed Khalil: "Maarakeh Huseyniya which was blew up by Israeli occupation"[4] 

:*Similar to the previous one, I cannot categorically say. Again stated as a fact apparently.Selfstudier (talk) 13:21, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Centre for Arab Unity Studies (headed by Khairuddin Haseeb: "A bomb planted by Israel in Maarakeh Huseiniya"[5] 

:*Appears tp be a self published journal? I think if so we cannot treat this as reliable for a factual assertion.Selfstudier (talk) 13:25, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to:

Nytimes: "The blast came a day after Israeli troops ended a 24-hour siege of Marakah"[6]

Wpost: "came less than 30 hours after the last units of a large Israeli force left Maarakeh following a search of the village."[7] -- Maudslay II (talk) 

:*These two sources do not say the Israelis did it.Selfstudier (talk) 13:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
So not a single English language source supports this fabrication. The bomb exploding a day after Israel left does not equal Israeli responsibility. The Arabic sources are dubious. The first one by فهد حجازي and published by "Dar Al-farabi For Publish" is by an author who wrote this garbage, which refers to Judiasm as being functionally established by the Persian Achaemenids for "racist settlement function". All we have here is claims from Lebanon, not fact.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 18:50, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Nicholas Blanford article is in english. Fahd Higazi is still an expert on Lebanse history, regardless of what unrelated work he wrote. So is Khalil Ahmed Khalil. So is Khairuddin Haseeb. If the reliable source is Lebanese/Arab, that dosen't mean he/she is not reliable. I don't think one of the reliability requirements is being western (even tho you have Nicholas Blanford) or Israeli or being written in english. Also sources that say the bombing happened hours after Israeli raid are implying that Israel is related to it. -- Maudslay II (talk) 19:17, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think @Selfstudier:? -- Maudslay II (talk)
The tag is gone and I would have removed it myself at this point as I do not think the article is a hoax or deliberate fabrication. I think we do need to rewrite it a bit more cautiously. So far, we have Fisk anonymously attributing via French intelligence officers, the deed to Israel, and Blanford, who's expert opinion is more categoric in assigning responsibility. It would be good to know if one or more of the Arabic sources above could definitely be considered rs. We must have everything together in one place and it must clearly state that the Israeli side deny responsibility and then we need to find a way to express the fact that some attributed sources consider Israel responsible. I do not think we may read anything into the fact of the explosion occurring shortly after the Israelis were there although we may mention that if the sources do and in the same context that they do. Selfstudier (talk) 13:40, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's original research to say Israel did this. Both claims have equal validity.--SoaringLL (talk) 15:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC) sock[reply]

If sources say it, it's not OR. Selfstudier (talk) 16:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Resistance remembered". Executive Magazine. 2010-04-01. Retrieved 2021-04-22.
  2. ^ "Reuters Archive Licensing". Reuters Archive Licensing. Retrieved 2021-04-22.
  3. ^ حجازي, فهد (2013-01-01). لبنان من دويلات فينيقيا إلى فيدرالية الطوائف (in Arabic). Al Manhal. ISBN 9796500117294.
  4. ^ Kalil, Khalil Ahmad (2006). الكوميديا السياسية: وجوه في مرآتي [Political Comedy: Faces In My Mirror] (in Arabic). AIRP. ISBN 978-9953-36-873-3.
  5. ^ المستقبل العربي (in Arabic). مركز دراسات الوحدة العربية،. 1985.
  6. ^ Facebook; Twitter; options, Show more sharing; Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Email; URLCopied!, Copy Link; Print (1985-03-05). "South Lebanon Blast Kills 2 Shia Leaders, 10 Others". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 2021-04-22. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help)
  7. ^ Boustany, Nora (1985-03-05). "Blast Kills 12 In S. Lebanon". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2021-04-22.

"Maarakeh bombing" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Maarakeh bombing. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 April 22#Maarakeh bombing until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. DXLB Muzikant (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 April 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Loaded terms like "massacre" may only be used per WP:POVNAME if there is evidence that the majority of independent, reliable sources in English are using a name including "massacre". Since there's no evidence of that, the weight of arguments means consensus to move. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:29, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Maarakeh massacre → Maarakeh bombing – Bombing is more precise than massacre. Several people were killed by a large bomb. Bombing is the common way to describe this type of killing. Bombing or bomb is what reliable sources in the article are using. This is consistent with other articles like McGurk's Bar bombing or 2021 Baghdad bombings. Geshem Bracha (talk) 17:28, 22 April 2021 (UTC) sock[reply]

  • What is your evidence that "massacre" is commonname? Selfstudier (talk) 13:41, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Based on google search in Arabic and English and sources above. -- Maudslay II (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The UN submission uses the term massacre but I don't get any hits in google (English) (although I don't get any for bombing either).Selfstudier (talk) 15:09, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Semi-Support per WP:NPOV. I do agree on moving this, but massacre does make this move notable because. DXLB Muzikant (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The proposer is not familiar with the topic and erred twice. (a) 'Several' is not used of 15 people. (b) 'bombing' is not preferred to 'massacre' in the majority of articles devoted to this kind of event in Israel on Wikipedia (List of massacres in Israel), which are generally called massacres because of the number of people killed. In using 'bombing' the emphasis is on the means employed: massacre, on the other hand, focuses on the result obtained. The question therefore is, do we emphasize the means, or the result, in a title for an article. Most Israeli articles of this type emphasize the result, rather than the means. Here, we have Arabs, so as usual, there is a tendency to emphasize the means adopted to murder, not the numbers. An alternative title could be ' Maarakeh mosque massacre/bombing'. It was not Maarakeh, but the mosque and the meeting there that was targeted.Nishidani (talk) 09:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The English sources in the article use bombing. Bombing is used for several events in Israel where several people were killed, like Dizengoff Street bus bombing.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 06:10, 25 April 2021 (UTC) sock[reply]
Oh well done. The majority use massacre and some 'bombing' and the one you cite bears the template 'mass murder', which was what many of these Lebanese bombings were. The culpability is inderminate on present evidence, but that a massacre was the intent is not in doubt.Nishidani (talk) 08:19, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What are the sources that call it massacre ? --Shrike (talk) 12:41, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This reverses an undiscussed move
 14:45, 22 April 2021 Maudslay II talk contribs block  78 bytes +78  Maudslay II moved page Maarakeh bombing to Maarakeh massacre over redirect: Stop removing information with discussion

the edit summary of which gives no valid rationale. Andrewa (talk) 23:31, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That was a revert actually, the undiscussed move was here. This article was created under this name. nableezy - 23:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Latest edit[edit]

User:Sir Joseph in [[1]] says "How about use the source and not make stuff up", did you see the refs beside it? Also what do you mean by: "a Shiite Muslim bombed a local mosque". -- Maudslay II (talk) 14:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source does not say Israel bombed the mosque and we most certainly can't use that in Wiki voice. Sir Joseph (talk) 14:43, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MOS[edit]

The title of the article is Maarakeh massacre. The first sentence and the infobox reflects that. If the title changes then those change. If the title doesnt change then they dont. Kindly dont engage in tendentious editing by making those changes prior to any move. Thanks in advance. nableezy - 21:44, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sources[edit]

What does the sources say:

1/ Sources that explicitly say Israel planted the bomb.[1][2][3][4][5]

2/ Sources that say the bomb was bombed directly after the Israeli raid. Some of them also cover the following attack on the hospital.[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13]

3/ There are absolutely zero sources that say Israel is unrelated to the bomb.

The Israeli denial is actually a tiny minority view or a detail. All the sources either say it was IDF, or link it directly to the IDF. Why wouldn't we link to the IDF and the Iron fist policy as well? -- Maudslay II (talk) 06:16, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Resistance remembered". Executive Magazine. 2010-04-01. Retrieved 2021-04-22.
  2. ^ Kalil, Khalil Ahmad (2006). الكوميديا السياسية: وجوه في مرآتي [Political Comedy: Faces In My Mirror] (in Arabic). AIRP. ISBN 978-9953-36-873-3.
  3. ^ حجازي, فهد (2013-01-01). لبنان من دويلات فينيقيا إلى فيدرالية الطوائف (in Arabic). Al Manhal. ISBN 9796500117294.
  4. ^ "Universal Declaration of Human Rights - Lebanon document - Letter from Lebanon". Question of Palestine. Retrieved 2021-04-17.
  5. ^ المستقبل العربي (in Arabic). مركز دراسات الوحدة العربية،. 1985.
  6. ^ Boustany, Nora (1985-03-05). "Blast Kills 12 In S. Lebanon". Washington Post. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2021-04-17.
  7. ^ Malthaner, Stefan (2011-05-09). Mobilizing the Faithful: Militant Islamist Groups and Their Constituencies. Campus Verlag. ISBN 978-3-593-39412-1.
  8. ^ Wright, Robin (2001-12-04). Sacred Rage: The Wrath of Militant Islam. Simon and Schuster. ISBN 978-0-7432-3342-2.
  9. ^ "Reuters Archive Licensing". Reuters Archive Licensing. Retrieved 2021-04-22.
  10. ^ Hijazi, Ihsan A. (1985-03-05). "BLAST IN LEBANON KILLS 15 IN MOSQUE". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2021-04-17.
  11. ^ Petran, Tabitha (1987). The struggle over Lebanon. Internet Archive. New York : Monthly Review Press. ISBN 978-0-85345-651-3.
  12. ^ "South Lebanon Blast Kills 2 Shia Leaders, 10 Others". Los Angeles Times. 1985-03-05. Retrieved 2021-04-17.
  13. ^ Mowles, Chris (1986-10-01). "The Israeli occupation of South Lebanon". Third World Quarterly. 8 (4): 1362. doi:10.1080/01436598608419954. ISSN 0143-6597.
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