Talk:Mack the Knife

This level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Germany Mid‑importance

	Germany portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Songs

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Songs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of songs on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SongsWikipedia:WikiProject SongsTemplate:WikiProject Songssong articles
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Jazz Low‑importance

	Jazz portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jazz, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of jazz on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JazzWikipedia:WikiProject JazzTemplate:WikiProject JazzJazz articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Library of Congress Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Library of Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Library of Congress on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Library of CongressWikipedia:WikiProject Library of CongressTemplate:WikiProject Library of CongressLibrary of Congress articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

An obvious place[edit]

I changed "and in such an obvious place" (in the Willett translation) to "but not in such an obvious place." Several Websites show the former, but the latter is what Lovett sings and is closer to the original meaning. Richard K. Carson 02:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics[edit]

The verse about the light and darkness isn't even in the original score. It's about the big fire in Soho (grosse Feuer in Soho). I don't have the score with me at the moment though; but when I get it, I'll change it. -- Ci e lomobile ^{talk / contribs} 07:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, the lyrics should not be included in the article at all, because it is a copyright violation! About the mentioned verse: you are right, it is not included in the original score, because it is not part of the original play at all. Brecht added the verse for the 1930 movie, but this is already mentioned in the article. For the play, Weill composed only a selection of six verses out of Brecht's original nine verses. And naming the "Licht und Dunkel"-Verse a Refrain is complete nonsense; it is a simple verse of the ballad, just like the others. --FordPrefect42 23:30, 5 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the information about the verse that appears only in the 1930 film coming from? The film was first screened in 1931. That verse is sung at the very end of the film, and not in the song that this article is about. Also, according to http://www.threepennyopera.org/histChron.php, both Brecht and Weill sued the production company for its handling of the film, which suggests that Brecht is not responsible for the changes which are in the movie.Ranlikerats (talk) 14:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are the original lyrics still in copyright 79 years later ? And where does the "literal" translation come from. -- Beardo 17:09, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the situation in the U.S., but in Europe literary property is protected 70 year after the author's death. Since Brecht died in 1956, the lyrics will be free in 1926. --FordPrefect42 18:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1. The correct translation should be "grosses Feuer in Soho" since it referres to one specific fire; "grosse" would be plural.

2. I do not see a copyright violation since the text is for information purposes only. Nobody (US or Europe) would for instance claim a copyright violation for a newspaper using a copyright protected name in a headline ("Ford lays off 30,000 workers")

3. @ fordperfect: I suppose that should be "2026".

-- powermax 19:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

1. The correct quote is "das große Feuer in Soho". Since the phrase is constructed with a definite article, "große" is correct here and means singular, not plural.

2. You don't see a copyright violation, but the copyright holders wouldn't agree. Quotations of minor parts of a piece of art are certainly okay with any country's copyright laws, but a full quote is a different matter.

3. Ack, 2026 of course, my mistake.

4. It' FordPrefect. I never claimed to be perfect ;-) --FordPrefect42 00:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've got really basic German, but the literal translation seems to have problems. If it was literal, some things would be different, imo. Comments? Anyone care? Because I'll put up my version.--122.106.209.26 (talk) 03:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where exactly do you see problems, and what exactly would in your opinion be different? Without any details of your proposed translation it is difficult to comment on its merits. I suggest you propose your translation here on the discussion page before editing the article. Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reference?[edit]

Is the boss Mack in Super Mario RPG a reference, since the boss is modeled after a knife? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.66.252.76 (talk) 23:28, 11 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I would suspect as much, but also "Mack" is a stock villain traceable to Medieval literature (see The Second Shepherds' Play) --starX 13:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mak isn't a stock villain in the mysteries, and you'd have a very hard time tracing him through to Brecht/Weill. Something of a stretch there. DionysosProteus (talk) 12:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Strand[edit]

The reference under "Crimes of Macheath" to "A dead man in London, on the famous street Strand" was a misunderstanding of the German lyrics. The word Strand doesn't refer to the street of that name in London, but simply means a beach or, in this context, more likely a river shore. I've changed it there and corrected the translated lyrics to match. Dodiad 00:36, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, you are wrong in every respect. "Strand" does indeed refer to the London street. The Dreigroschenoper is set in London, forgot that? There is no beach in London, but The Strand, i.e. the street. And the german word "Strand" (referring to a beach) is pronounced (IPA: ʃtrant), which does not rhyme on "nennt" (IPA: nεnt), whereas "Strand" referring to the street is pronounced (IPA: strænd), which rhymes perfectly. Plus Macheath is written exactly that way, in both Gay/Pepusch's Beggar's Opera as well as in Brecht/Weill's Dreigroschenoper. No capital "H". Reverted your edits. --FordPrefect42 00:55, 25 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "...which does not rhyme on "nennt....""

If we're going to be pedantic (we are--or at least I am), nothing rhymes on "nennt"--or, for that matter, on anything else. On, is not, in fact, an all-purpose preposition. The word you want here is with. TheScotch (talk) 11:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Westlife?[edit]

Is that huge Westlife template really necessary? Granted that they recorded a version of the song, but they are only one group amongst dozens of singers and musicians who recorded it. Shall we add templates of that sort for all those many others? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:57, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; that template is unnecessary and disproportional. The group is mentioned twice in the article — that should suffice. Michael Bednarek 09:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quite so. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 22:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like consensus to me. I'm going to remove it. Michael Bednarek 10:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I see no objections. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:42, 22 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Parody section?[edit]

Should we a a section for parodies? I would think anything to cut down on the (rather unseemly) list of songs, while still adding information, would be good. I know of at least 4 parodies, which, while not a large amount in and of itself, could be added to by those knowledgeable of the topic in question. I would do it myself, but again; not only do I not know what I'm talking about, but I'd also like consensus first. Thank you, 74.32.229.23 (talk) 19:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changing Keys[edit]

Is the Bobby Darin version the first one to change keys throughout the song? (ie going up a tone after every two verses). MBG 119.11.0.14 (talk) 06:29, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Banned?[edit]

Since there's a link to List of songs banned by the BBC, is there a story behind this that's worth relating in the article? 91.107.187.8 (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The list article gives a ref. to a Daily Mail article which says the following: "Documents reveal the BBC banned Mack The Knife, now a classic and regularly covered on shows such as X Factor, because of its lyrics about knives, dead bodies and blood." But, that's about all it says. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is kind of a peculiar song - a bouncy, upbeat number celebrating a guy who stabs people to death. Probably has to be taken in context of the play from whence it came. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not all versions are upbeat. The Bobby Darin version hardly qualifies for censorship since he made Mackie sound like a member of the Rat Pack. How many people ever really payed attention to those lyrics, anyway? Unfortunately, as I said, the newspaper article is short on details. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 23:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Louis Armstrong's version is fairly jazzy. I'll admit the German version is not upbeat, it's just a straightforward rendition of the lyrics. It's familiar to those of use who remember the Ernie Kovacs Show. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

However, it's a good thing Darin decided not to retitle it, "Splish-Splash, I Was Takin' a Bloodbath..." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You should be ashamed of yourself for actually typing that, Bugs. What a terrible joke. How about "somewhere, across the abattoir"? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Darin' to be bold. And why stop at a bloodbath when you can have a sea. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

McDonald's has these promotional milkshakes every so often, especially the Shamrock Shake in March. DQ has their Blizzard, which I think has a version with toffee bits. McD needs to pick up on that. They could mix strawberry syrup and toffee bits into the drink and call it a "McHeath". They could give a special prize to anyone who gets the joke. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, what the hell, they already ripped off Mackie once, why not do it again? Ya think they could get Kevin Spacey for the commercials? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 04:39, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Darin probably works cheaper, but his act is kind of stiff these days. My idea about the drink is not as far-fetched as it sounds. About 10 years ago, I think it was Red Lobster that featured a drink that was essentially a vanilla smoothie, and they hooked this little plastic shark on the edge, and you would tip it and raspberry sauce would spill out of its mouth and into the drink. I kid you not. It was a good drink too. Tasty and tasteless at the same time. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "Well, it is kind of a peculiar song - a bouncy, upbeat number celebrating a guy who stabs people to death. Probably has to be taken in context of the play from whence it came.":

Sort of, but the Brecht play actually starts with this song. There isn't a single word of dialogue spoken before.

Re: "Not all versions are upbeat. The Bobby Darin version hardly qualifies for censorship since he made Mackie sound like a member of the Rat Pack. How many people ever really payed attention to those lyrics, anyway?":

I would have to assume millions, pretty much everyone who ever enjoyed the song to any degree. No, anyway you slice it (so to speak) this is an odd huge standard. TheScotch (talk) 06:46, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Selective List?[edit]

What is the criteria of which versions of the song get to be listed on the Selective List? Who decides? No one owns this page, yet it appears to be a committee of one who is making the determination. Peter-T (talk) 05:21, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, for one thing, any addition to the list should have its own article. That is one important indication of notability. Is there a notable addition to the list that has recently been deleted? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 13:50, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

¶ Although there is a link to "complete lyrics" it turns out to be just to the complete Bobby Darin version. I'd really appreciate a link to the complete (11 verses) German - with a literal English translation!! Also, at some point found scraps of other English lyric translations; this song has become an example of how many different ways a foreign lyric can be rendered in English and I'd appreciate a bit more on that point. Sussmanbern (talk) 16:10, 16 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Clay Aiken[edit]

How do I add Clay Aiken as a performer of this song on his latest cd titled Tried and True? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodbr (talk • contribs) 16:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mack the Bomb[edit]

I just listened to Pete Seeger sing this as "Mack the Bomb" [1]. He has changed lyrics before. Sammy D III (talk) 19:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pedro Navaja[edit]

no mention of Pedro navaja? This version based off of the original has made careers and 2 films but no mention. Come on, dig deeper and include the Latina American part of this history. This article is garbage w/o it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.14.243.2 (talk) 03:45, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's mentioned. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]