Talk:Mourning of Muharram

Muharram is NOT a festival.

At least not a joyous occasion. I don't know why everyone thinks that. Muharram is the first month of the Islamic calendar. The tenth day of Muharram is called Ashurah (a day of mourning). For heaven's sake the Shi'ites do not celebrate the new year. They start their mourning ritual at this time. There are no festivities for the Shi'ites. You see many of the Shi'ites are Syed and claim direct descendence from one of the Imams. The death of the Imam is co-memorated like the death of an important family member. You would not celebrate the first of January as New Year's eve if your mom or dad died on that day, would you? So we do not celebrate the arrival of the New Year because our ancestors were brutally massacred on that day. This information is from the descendant of the son of Imam Husain..an Abidi Syed..ME so you can be sure this is accurate. If you don't believe me do your own research. Netpari 04:58, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I can vouch for every single word he wrote, this comming from a sayed also. While some parts of the world start their new year with drunk parties and wild brawls, making the police go on their toes, we have our crime rate lowered due to the mourning of our relative. We dont celebrate, we mourn. --Striver 00:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed the article name back to Festival of Muharram. Although you are right in that the observances are more solemn than festive, Festival of Muharram is a more common name and therefore should be used (see naming convention). joturner 16:27, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

There's much overlap with the Aashurah article here. —Charles P. (Mirv) 18:01, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that too, But I don't know enough about this to be confident enough to edit it. --Irishpunktom\^talk 18:28, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Do you really think the Muslim New Year article is necessary? This article basically covers all that can/will be covered in the Muslim New Year article. Even the first paragraphs states that "Muslims around the world celebrate the new Islamic year, the Shi'ite sect has most visible celebration proceedings.". IMHO, you should either delete or redirect the Muslim New Year article to here Nil Einne 18:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

To Joturner and to anyone wishing to keep the current name "Festival of Muharram", the naming convention guideline is to be used as a guideline only. Even if we do use it, it is clear that if the name is misleading, it may be changed. In this case, I cannot imagine a more misleading name. In any dictionary or thesaurus, you will see festival meaning a joyous occasion. Do we intend this encyclopedia to be rational or not? I will change the name, and I hope that people are not too stubborn or irrational to change it back. The occasions in Muharram are clearly NOT festivals. Adamcaliph 02:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The use of the word Festival to identify the Shi'a observance of Muharram is very inacurate. The name needs to be changed if the article is to be kept. Dnkrumah 11:31, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge

There are several articles about this issue including Mätam, Azadari of Muharram and Majlis-e-Aza. Unfortunately all of them are weak. Therefor I propose merging all of them in this article to make a good one. I chose this one due to the fact that I guess its name is more familiar for native speakers of English. Please add you idea below.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 02:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Its better to merge them. AliFazal 11:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Given the comparative shortness of each of the articles, it makes sense to me as well. If the content does grow excessively long in the future, they could always be separated out again then. John Carter 14:36, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

That's fine, but matam is becoming rather taboo. Whilst I agree with the other two, the thing with matam is we'll have so many people fighting on that article it's going to bring down the rest of it, and just end up being a headache for us. I suggest we let people use matam as their battleground for the time being and at least have these two comprise one nice article. Eventually matam will need to be its own thing anyway, might as well not pain ourselves with bringing its controversy to a normal article now. --Enzuru 03:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have substantially revised and shortened the section "Azadari in Lucknow." It's unclear to me whether Azadari == Mourning of Muharram, as the previous text said that the first Azadari procession after the ban was lifted was held during Ramadan in 1998. Anyway the previous text was much too detailed for an encyclopedia article, with too many obscure and undefined terms. The account of events was skewed toward the Shia protesters' perspective, with the government entirely in the wrong and the Shia community entirely in the right. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 23:26, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Questions

Who is the Muhammad that is being quoted in the hadith section? If it is supposed to be the prophet pbuh, then there should be a pbuh or (s) next to his name. And are these quotes supposed to be things that the prophet pbuh said? How is it possible for him to speak of Husayn's death when it happened in the battle of karbala which was in 680 (and the prophet pbuh died in 632)?
70.243.141.193 (talk) 04:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow people have the right to posting fake Hadiths.. just to prove they are right --212.76.72.252 (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Since I got no replies, and I can't find any sources to cite for the "hadiths" from the prophet (s), I commented out those lines. If someone can find some legitimate sources such as a hadith book or Qur'an (and if it's a Shia hadith book please add the Quranic support to it because every Shia knows that hadith isn't true unless there is Quranic evidence behind it) 70.242.145.222 (talk) 03:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

God willing I'll check it soon.--Seyyed(t-c) 09:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

There cannot be a Hadith on this matter, because Muhammad (pbuh) was not alive during this time... also the last quote for Imam Ali ibn Talib, cannot be true, because Jesus (Isa) was never in Iraq... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.76.252.50 (talk) 17:40, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

It is well known that in the Theology of Twelvers that the Prophet (AS) had knowledge of the future. He was created before Adam (AS) according to Shi'ah hadith and even Sunni hadith according to Sufis and Barelwis, which is detailed in the article about Aql. You can find Sunni hadith about that here:

http://www.livingislam.org/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html

The proof that the Prophet (AS) knew about Karbala is the reason we mourn Ashura today. According to Sunni hadith, the Prophet (AS) astaghfullilah, saw the Jews doing it so he copied them. It is in Sahih Bukhari:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.609 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/058.sbt.html#005.058.278

A true Prophet (AS) does not copy other religions, astaghfullilah, Allah divinely reveals what he should do. According to Shi'a, the Prophet (AS) knew that his grandson Imam Hussain (AS) was going to be killed, and that is why Ashura is important. And, is there Qur'anic evidence on the exact details of prayer? No, you need hadith for that. And is there Qur'anic evidence that Prophets (AS), astaghfullilah, copied other religions? And in the Qur'an, there is no evidence that Christ (AS) only stayed in Palestine. He could have went anywhere. His family was even in Egypt at one point. --Enzuru 07:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC) Also Quranic Verse from Quran stating the the prophecy of Karbala. Quran: Surah:37 As-Saffat Verse:107

Vandalism?

Is this vandalism, or just badly mangled English?

Around 1990s, after the post-first American-Iraq War, Iraq's Mehdi militia return to Iran for search Imam Mahdi.

Either way, would someone please fix it?

Terry Yager (talk) 05:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article only reflects the traditional belief and local legends, and fully neglects certain scholastic and modern approaches. For example, there are striking similarities between the Shia traditions and ancient, pre-Islamic cults of the region, for example the Zoroastrian Siyâvash cult. Pre-Islamic Persians and other Zoroastrians in Mesopotamia used to mourn for the Avestan hero Siyâvash. The Iranian scholar Amir-Moezzi writes in the Encyclopaedia Iranica (article "Shahrbanu": [1]):

• ... The figure of Šahrbānu may be situated within the complex network of relations between Persians and Shiʿites. These relations naturally belong to the wider framework of the attitude of Persians towards Islam and the authorities and institutions that represent it during the early centuries of the hejra. This latter phenomenon has been studied widely in its many forms (Yarshater 1998, bibliography; Amir-Moezzi 2002a, pp. 532-36). On the other hand, links of a religious and doctrinal nature between ancient Iranian religions and Imami Shiʿism constitute a field of research that still remains almost completely unexplored. The complex material of the Šahrbānu tradition forms part of those elements that link Imamism to ancient Persia and serve to revalidate pre-Islamic Persian culture. Some noteworthy examples: the tradition according to which the celestial Book of Zoroaster consisted of 12000 volumes containing all Knowledge and ʿAli depicted as the Knower par excellence of this Book (Kolayni 1956, I, p. 161; Ebn Bābawayh 1984, p. 206); the tradition praising the justice of Iranian kings, particularly that of Anušervān (q.v.), during whose reign the Prophet was born (Majlesi, XV, pp. 250, 254, 279 ff.); the emblematic figure of Salmān the Persian as the Persian sage, the ideal Muslim and archetype of the Shiʿite initiate adept (Massignon, passim); the glorification of two of the most important Persian festivals, Nowruz and Mehregān in Hadiths going back to Shiʿite Imams (Walbridge, passim); mourning rituals for Imam Ḥosayn as a continuation of funerary rituals and ancient practices for the Persian hero Siyāvaš (Meskub, pp. 82 f f.;Yarshater 1979, pp. 80-95), etc. In this context, and when we acknowledge the fundamental importance of the affiliation and sacred nature of the link among the awliāʾ in Shiʿism (Amir-Moezzi 2000, passim), the figure of Šahrbānu acquires special significance. Adding the light of Persian royal glory to that of walāya, stemming from Moḥammad and ʿAli, Šahrbānu lends double legitimacy—Shiʿite and Persian to its descendants, the Imams of Ḥosaynid lineage, as well as a double noblility, Qorayshite and Sasanian. At the same time, she endows the kings of ancient Persia, with the status of maternal ancestors of the Imams, thus revalidating the sovereigns and the culture of a nation of which she is the Lady. Thus, she becomes one of the main links in the relationship between pre-Islamic Persia and Imamism ...

This should be added to the article. Tājik (talk) 14:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Al-Mukhtar ibn Abi Ubayd al Thaqafi--94.193.42.11 (talk) 08:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC) can we please have a section on him

Twelver Alevis

In "Twelver Alevis", "Twelver" is wikified to the Twelver article, which is about "the largest branch of Shī‘ī (Shi'a) Islam". But Alevi#The_Twelve_Imams says: "The Twelve Imams is another common Alevi belief [...] There is not much real affiliation with the actual Twelve Imams of Shi'i Islam". So perhaps "twelver alevis" should rather send to Alevi#The_Twelve_Imams ? Apokrif (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

February 2009 comment

Beleive in freedom. Beleive in let others beleive they want to & let others do they want to, without interfering with you physically. This is what Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) told & Quran says - you be yourself & we be ourselves & all will be decided on the Promised Day. So thats it. Why interfere here or there? And, where anyone AMONGTS us present during that time of Karbala War!!?? A big NO. So just see which sect supports yazid & which sect supports Imam Hussain (A.S.). Fine, no one was present then, but one can mourn for Imam Hussain now! So let them do it, let them cry, let them beat themselves. Why is another body worried by a Shia flaggelating himself. Christains take out march showing how Jesus was crucified, Hindus do many other things, many other religions do many things, will all these be stopped too!!?? No one can. So live your life unto yourself without forcing your thoughts onto others! Understand - you better do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syed Aijaz Ali Rizvi (talk • contribs) 09:59, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

This comment was inserted at the head of the page. It does not contribute to the article, but I moved it here rather than delete it. — ℜob C. alias ÀLAROB 23:29, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

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Copyright problem removed

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Infobox pic

@Sonia Sevilla: What's your motivation for changing the picture in infobox? Your picture is very vague and does not show the reality! This picture is not showing what's really going on and as you see there's a green flag covering some parts of the picture. This is while the previous picture is demonstrating the reality of Mourning in Muharram. The picture is wide and very clear! Mhhossein (talk) 11:56, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: :and what is reality? sholugh kari o ghame zani? dosdari hame donya ashura ro ba chizaye Na-Araam beshnasan? Ashura fgt male azari ha nist. --۝ ۝ (talk) 12:20, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Sonia Sevilla: I did not get the answer to my question. Is your reversion backed by the policies? Mhhossein (talk) 12:31, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Is your reversion backed by the policies? no. its 2 years my picture dont changed.that mean its good pic.--۝ ۝ (talk) 13:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

What a bizarre statement. The new picture isn't particularly great, but one part of reality is obviously not "less" real than the other. You seem to be confusing Islamist phantasms with reality.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:16, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Translating: and what is reality? chock-a-block and Tatbir , do you want to show Mourning of Muharam as Unrest activities?Ashura is not only for shi'e of Ardabil.--۝ ۝ (talk) 15:57, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

There are in the picture Nishapur 3 person, but muharram in Ardabil's image is a great event. please do not give comments nationalism such as → Ashura fgt male azari ha nist.

In addition nobody picture of Qama has not from Iran, only is mourning. Zanjan, Ardabil, Yazd, Kerman ID's mourning in Iran not Nishapur.--Samək^Talk 18:41, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Anders Feder: Be polite and respect Etiquette like other users commenting here, and stop hounding me. Mhhossein (talk) 04:52, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: Be "polite" yourself, respect WP:NPOV and don't scream at other users who don't share your particular religious ideology.--Anders Feder (talk) 10:25, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm polite, I did not insulted others particular religious ideology as you do. Mhhossein (talk) 11:01, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Whether your insults were directed at someone's religion is completely irrelevant. Wikipedia doesn't care whether people consider themselves to be religious, nor does it grant any special protection to them.--Anders Feder (talk) 11:12, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course it does not care and I know it well! But I it cares your hounding and takes it seriously. Btw, to whom did I throw insults? Mhhossein (talk) 12:19, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

If you "know it well", then why do you bring your religion up if it was anything that anyone would care about? Keep your manipulative and propagandizing editing out of Wikipedia.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

@Sonia Sevilla: There's really no reason to change the former pic when you are aiming to push your own pic into infobox. There's no Tatbir in the former .Mhhossein (talk) 04:52, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

@Mhhossein:If there is no Tatbir, but currently picture shows Religiosity And extremists of Shi'a Islam. --ސ ޚ ލ ٰ ا (talk) 11:16, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Sonia Sevilla: This is your view, keep it for your self or publish it in your own weblog, but don't take it here. Please. If you could find a better pic, as I told you before, I'll support it. Mhhossein (talk) 12:21, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

@Sonia Sevilla: The Ardabil picture is of a populist event orchestrated by partisans of the Iranian regime, and you are right to point out it that it is not representative how other Shias observe the day. I don't think the composition of the new image you added is so good, though.--Anders Feder (talk) 14:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

however: there is no reason to show Iranian culture of Muharram in a page that directly refer to Karbala (A city in Iraq not Iran). so,a picture taked in Karbala is preferenced. --ސ ޚ ލ ٰ ا (talk) 15:04, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I think all locations qualify, as long as the picture depicts Mourning of Muharram, and is of reasonably good quality.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:08, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

The one from Karbala you added[2] is certainly worthy of consideration.--Anders Feder (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2015 (UTC) This one is excellent.--Anders Feder (talk) 16:08, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

this is interesting, 99% of Pictures depicts Mourning of Muharram in Wikimedia Commons are taked in anywhere except Karbala!--ސ ޚ ލ ٰ ا (talk) 15:30, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Sonia Sevilla: Please restore the former pic. The current one is not even showing the mourning. It is a Arba'een rally! Mhhossein (talk) 16:57, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Create Page : Mourning of Muharram in Iran. --ސ ޚ ލ ٰ ا (talk) 18:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Sonia Sevilla: Can you differniate between Muharram and arbaeen? I have no assertion on the location, the pic should fit the article. Mhhossein (talk) 11:38, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

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Mourning of Muharram between Ismaili and Alavi shia Muslims

I searched a lot between sources but i can't find any reliable sources about mourning ritual among the shia Ismaili and Alavi and Baktashi. I move the texts that is about this subject to here until suitable source is found.Lstfllw203 (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Bektashis and Alevis also mourn, and they keep themselves from eating and drinking ("fasting") the first 10–12 days of Muharram. In this period, the Alevis wear black clothes, do not shave themselves and avoid entertainment and pleasure. Originally, it was forbidden to bathe and change clothes during this period, but today most Alevis do not follow this rule. This is called "Muharrem Matemi", "Yas-i Muharrem" or "Muharrem orucu". But because it is called "fasting", many people falsely think that Alevis celebrate the Muharram. The definition of the "fast" in this connection is different from the normal type of "fasting". Bektashis greet each other by saying "Ya Imam! Ya Husayn."

The only Ismaili group which mourns are the Mustaali, who mourn similarly to most Twelvers. Although, Nizari Ismaili commemorate Muharram through the tradition of not celebrating marriages, birthdays, and other religious celebrations during this time to show respect to their other Muslim brothers who are mourning.

@Lstfllw203 good info. Nannadeem (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

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Pilgrimage to the shrine of Husayn

In the subsection Pilgrimage to the shrine of Husayn, it says "one million pilgrims visit the city annually", citing Yaacov Shimoni's 1974 book. Can we get a newer citation that is up-to-date? The estimate of the pilgrims to Husayn Ibn Ali's shrine varies, but it is definitely not the low number of one million per year. The Karbala article says 8 million pilgrims. However, 'The Walk of the Free' Najaf -to Kerbala webpage reports that pilgrims are estimated to be 5-10 million. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CryMeAnOcean (talk • contribs) 01:37, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

References

changing "fasting(sunni islam)" to "celebrating(sunni islam)"

This is outrageous. Why would someone change this without any explanation or reason? As a sunni, i find this offensive that someone is actually assuming "sunnis celebrate on the day of ashura". this is wrong. I am going to revert this edit. I cannot believe someone would play this dirty trick, trying to paint the picture that somehow the shia community mourns the death of the fallen and sunnis celebrate ? how cruel.

Anyways, this edit was made without giving any justification and i am rolling back the edit.Mhveinvp (talk) 11:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

This is an indian "sunni" imam, Mr. Ahmad Naqshbandi, watch these two sermons. its in Urdu. As a sunni if at least these two videos dont tell you about "Mourn and derive messages from Hussein's Sacrifice", i dont know what to say. Mhveinvp (talk) 11:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

References