Talk:New Game Plus/Archive 1

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Clean-up

Good lord, someone please clean up this article. It's poorly formatted and spelled, and the begging at the end is unneccessary. 63.3.0.1 23:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it now, I agree this article needs a cleanup, although I'm more concerned with the long list of games at the end. I'm going to remove most of them, keeping only the iconic NG+ games, which will generally only be classic SNES and NES games. If every last NG+ game is allowed to be listed, the list would grow to a ridiculous length. Here's the list as it stands prior to my cropping. Ong elvin 10:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

List of games with a New Game Plus mode

NES

Game Boy Advance

SNES

Playstation

Playstation 2

Gamecube

Nintendo DS

Multi-Platform

Xbox 360

Wii

Playstation 3

Actually, looking through the article as a whole, I think it would be better to remove that section altogether, and use iconic NG+ games in the Examples section. So that means replacing some of the games used with earlier examples. Ong elvin —Preceding comment was added at 10:40, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've done the changes... I'd like to replace most of the games with 16-bit or 8-bit examples if possible, and I know most of them can be replaced with such equivalents... but I forget the games. :/ Ong elvin 01:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I hope no one minds that I removed the nowiki tag from the list. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 13:25, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Dragon Quarter

somebody should write something about Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter's SOL system.

Role Playing Games

The article claims this is mainly an RPG convention, but I don't think that's the case. It is also present in action-adventure games, such as several Zelda titles. In fact, I think this is where the phenomenon started. It is also used very frequently in survival horror, such all games in the Resident Evil and Silent Hill series and Eternal Darkness, platformers like the Ratchet and Clank series, etc. Ace of Sevens 15:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The earliest example I can think of is in the 1985 platform game Super Mario Bros.; when the player defeated Bowser in the final level, the Princess would "present you with a new quest" - namely, one would be able to play through the game again, only with more difficult enemies and other minor gameplay changes. A more recent example is The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker; after completing the game, the player would be able to start a new file which, whilst not altering the gameplay, allows the player to use the Deluxe Picto Box item from the outset, and gives the main character a different change of clothes. Ppk01 12:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

R&C

What about R&C? This is also a New Game + game.--Homei 17:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Ratchet & Clank

I remember that I could start a new game in Ratchet & Clank with the weapons I acquired in the last game. Could that be considered New Game+? --Mika1h 15:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If you have items before they would otherwise be available, I think it does. 82.152.36.189 15:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Final Fantasy X-2

I used to own FFX-2 and the BradyGames strategy guide. In the guide there was a section that gave you a step-by-step run-through on the exact actions you could take to get 100% on the very first playthrough. So either the BradyGames guide was incorrect (which has happened on certain things from time to time), OR, the editor on the article made a rather innocent but incorrect assumption. Any other notes would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jahudgins1983 (talk • contribs) 01:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

items don't count towards that total. the game only keeps track of how much of the story you've completed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.30.110.37 (talk) 08:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Devil May Cry

Devil May Cry should be added to the list of PlayStation 2 games featuring a "New Game +" mode: You can start a new game with all abilities acquired in previous game.
However, I don't know about Devil May Cry 2 and Devil May Cry 3, I don't played them yet.
Od1n 12:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Resistance Fall of Man

What about Resistance? There are no ps3 games listed so far. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.88.49.41 (talk) 05:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Resolved

This article is basically a definition of a gameplay feature, it will never reach Featured Article or even Good Article status. Moreover, a lot of the examples of games mentioned are original research and superficial similarities; I'm pretty sure only Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross and Final Fantasy X-2 have a feature explicitely named "New Game+". Consequently, it would be best to purge this article from its original research and merge what remains into the most relevant parent article, Chrono (series). Kariteh (talk) 13:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I would have to disagree with you, yes the article is a fary cry from GA status, but as the above list shows this feature far from unique to the Chrono series and so I feel merging it into that series' article would make little sense. The name of this feature may be differ from game to game but it serves more or less the same purpose and this article needs a universal name so "New Game Plus" does nicely. Just my two cents.

S. Luke 17:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

No, you can't assimile everything that looks like New Game Plus to the actual New Game Plus: that's Wikipedia:Original research and it's not allowed unless you cite a source to back up the statements. This current article is basically an essay, it's not factual. Kariteh (talk) 18:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Chrono Trigger did not create the NG+ concept. It existed long before then - The Legend of Zelda. Chrono Trigger only coined the term. Also, Wikipedia acknowledges that some articles will simply never be in a position to reach FA status due to their nature, even if they are notable enough to merit a separate article. (I know I saw this somewhere, but I can't remember where. If someone else knows about it, please insert link.) Ong elvin (talk) 05:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course, but this article is titled "New Game Plus" and is supposed to be about the feature called "New Game Plus". Comparing this feature and other concepts is original research if no reliable source that compares them is cited. In its current state, this article shouldn't be a separate article, because it's not properly cited and does not establish notability. Besides, there's a difference between articles that can't reach FA due to their nature (for instance, articles about rare species of dinosaurs that even scientists don't know much about), and articles that can't reach FA due to them being essays based on original research. Kariteh (talk) 11:28, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree, the only reliable source use of New Game plus occurs in the Chrono Trigger game series, and we have to work with reliable sources. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:11, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I remember somewhere in a sqare-enix interview about Crisis Core they mentioned that when you finish the game you get a newgame+. On a nother note isn't newgame+ just a phrase people use to describe when you start a newgame with alot of the stuff you had? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.139.192.253 (talk) 23:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If New Game Plus is used in Crisis Core then it can be mentioned in the Chrono series article (and in the Crisis Core article of course). It's just one sentence. As for your question, it's precisely what Wikipedia calls original research. Kariteh (talk) 07:55, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

My stance on this is that either NG+ is a separate short article, or doesn't get a mention anywhere. Realistically, there are no "sources" because while NG+ is used a lot, and has been used before Chrono Trigger came along, it's rarely formally called NG+. Ong elvin (talk) 10:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I share your reasoning but not your conclusion. I think NG+ should either be mentioned in the Chrono series article or not have a separate article at all. It would definitely be at home in Chrono (series) (with FFX-2 and Crisis Core mentioned briefly), since it's a main, almost-defining feature of the games of the series. See also Kingdom Hearts (series) for how common features of a series can be implemented in a series article. Kariteh (talk) 10:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The problem with your example is that those are features specific to Kingdom Hearts. NG+ is not unique to any series. I keep saying that Chrono Trigger didn't invent the NG+ concept, although saying that it gave it the name is certainly a fair argument. If it's mentioned as part of another article, then the only articles that I think can lay a reasonable claim are Chrono Trigger for naming it, Chrono (series) because Trigger is part of it, and The Legend of Zelda because it's the earliest game I can think of to have a NG+ feature. I use the Zelda article because it's the earliest example of NG+ in a well known game that I know of. Implementations in each of the articles would be something like this:
Chrono Trigger - although NG+ had been used in games long before Chrono Trigger, such as Zelda, this game was the first to call it NG+.
Chrono (series) - Chrono games use the NG+ feature as a part of their design, although this feature had also been used before in other titles such as Zelda.
The Legend of Zelda - Zelda was perhaps the earliest game to use NG+, although it would not be named that until Chrono Trigger came along.
So, that I think would be the best way to do it, if y'all are really adamant about this. Ong elvin (talk) 02:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a source for Zelda? I don't consider that a new game +, as nothing from the first quest affects the second. If that's a NG+, then so is Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels. On a side note, did Lufia II: Rise of the Sinistrals have a NG+? I seem to remember something like it with increased experience rewards, and I think they even used the "+" designation for it. Pagrashtak 04:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Oppose merge - the article is about a generic feature of certain video games. It is not solely about Chrono Trigger's New Game+ mode. There may be merit in merging it with something else, there may be merit in deleting it but there is no merit whatsoever in merging it with Chrono Trigger. Additionally, if my memory of Wikipedia policy is correct, the fact that an article will never make Good or Featured article status doesn't mean it should be merged or deleted, it's just a sad fact that there aren't enough sources on certain topics to bring them up to those quality standards. EvilRedEye (talk) 15:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion - What if we made this article "Playthrough" (to describe completing a game, start to finish) and then to expand it to include other features that some games offer through multiple playthroughs, including, but not limited, to "New Game Plus". This makes this more generic, but a core gaming term that we should talk about, and avoids some of the issues listed above. --MASEM 15:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not a bad idea... I was going to say it 'Playthrough' sounds like a bit of a nothing topic, a bit like eating or something, but then I discovered eating has its own article so... If you did an article for playthrough I suppose you could include stuff about how people tend not to finish most games, I've been several articles about that over the years. EvilRedEye (talk) 15:27, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a great idea. It would definitely allow for a broader scope and would eliminate the OR-ish aspect of the current article. Kariteh (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge to an article about common RPG elements. New Game Plus is also a feature in Disgaea and Disgaea 2, possibly other NiS games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

NG+ is not unique to RPGs. There are action games that use it, such as the MMZ games. And then some of the examples listed in the Clean-up section higher up on this page. Gradius, Contra, SMB3, Smash TV, Kid Icarus all used NG+ in their own ways as well. Ong elvin (talk) 06:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Since everyone agrees on the renaming, which name shall we choose for the new article? Astro Boy: Omega Factor isn't an RPG, so perhaps Playthrough (currently a redirect) is the most appropriate name? The article could even include information about the games that unlock an additional difficulty level after a first playthrough (for instance F-Zero, and I think Contra, etc.). Kariteh (talk) 07:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Being used at several different articles doesn't make it deserving of an article, especially just because it doesn't have a proper merge target. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, so after some discussion, I think this is the consensus regarding NG+ as a topic:

  • NG+ is notable in that it is used in many games; however, it is impossible for it to satisfy the guidelines set out in WP:N for 3rd-party sources.
  • NG+ should be mentioned specifically in an article somewhere. Chrono Trigger possibly for giving it the term we know it as, but the actual concept should be in an article about video gaming concepts.
  • Playthrough looks like a viable candidate for moving this article, although it seems that we also think it's not the best article name possible.

I think it'd be a good idea to take this to WP:CVG/GL and ask for help on this issue. Any objections? Ong elvin (talk) 11:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You can go ahead I guess. Kariteh (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Playthrough doesn't exist anymore, it's been merged into the narrower speedrun article. I think it could be moved to clear game (which currently redirects here), with more emphasis on post-game content in general. -- Gordon Ecker 02:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

No mention of Super Mario Bros.?

One of the original games to do this was Super Mario Brothers. All the Gombas became Buzzy Beetles after you win the game and it starts from the beginning. This is really one of the most historic examples and it's not even mentioned. 65.102.40.110 (talk) 23:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. Can you cite a reliable source that says that Super Mario Bros. used something called or similar to New Game Plus? Kariteh (talk) 08:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
You can buy or download a copy of the game to verify it; it's not hard to find. --DocumentN (talk) 04:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the very subject matter isn't typically mentioned outright by any source, and doesn't lend itself to it either, as mentioned in the Merge discussion above. While that example could certainly count as an early example of NG+, there's no 3rd party source to verify it. :/ Ong elvin (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
This one's easy: find a strategy guide/Merlin sticker book from circa early 1990's. It's in there. 79.72.180.196 (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Or, perhaps it is unverifiable because it's not true. According to this article, an important component of a NG+ is that "certain aspects of the finished game affect the newly started game". In Super Mario Bros., as far as I remember, the harder playthrough will always be exactly the same, no matter what happened during the first. Either it's not a NG+, or this article is wrong. Either way, this is underlining a serious problem with this article. Pagrashtak 22:37, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I think this article should be moved to clear game, expanding the focus to cover post-game modes and content in general. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 04:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this idea. The idea for merging it with gameplay is a bit impossible now that the page doesn't exist and this seems to be the best alternative that I can think of.Shdwlink1993 (talk) 05:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This article suggests that "Clear Game" is just a variation of a New Game+. "Clear Game" is no better a target than "New Game Plus", especially since you want the article to encompass all such post-game modes. Why not call the article post-game mode? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
"New game plus" refers exclusively to modes which involve starting over from the beginning. "Clear game" mode is a broader term, which encompasses both "new game plus" type game modes which involve starting over, such as the ones in Resident Evil 4 and Chrono Trigger, and post-game modes which do not involve starting over, such as the one in Final Fantasy V Advance and Dragon Quest VIII. I'd be okay with using "post-game mode", however it would go against Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:28, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Proposed scope shift

I propose that this article be shifted and expanded in scope to cover post-game content in general. Eventually, I would like the article to be renamed, as detailed in the previous topic. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea. I can think of numerous examples of "post-game/completion content" that aren't covered by this article due to it's limited scope. It would also allow this article to become much more solid than it ever will be by detailing the specific mode featured in only a few games. Besides, the concept can apply to more than just "a new save file with differences", as many games actually add features to a completed save file. I'm all for it. --.:Alex:. 20:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
I previously suggested switching this to "playthrough", which still allows for covering what bonuses are gained after clearing a game. --MASEM 14:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I find it strange that "playthrough" redirects to "speedrun." I always thought that "playthrough" described the act of "playing through" a video game, such as "my first playthrough." I don't see what this has to do with "playthrough," since it only describes content that becomes available upon beating a game, but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, "post-game content" doesn't explicitly refer to video games, which this article is solely about. New Game + and Clear Game aren't the same thing either, but both of them can be classified as a continuation of a game after you beat it. What to do, what to do...--ZXCVBNM 03:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm with Zx on this one, but for different reasons. Someone would actually search for New Game+, whereas they're less likely to search for playthrough. That combined with the fact that New Game+ could have enough content to remain it's own article to me merits it remaining its own article. --Teancum (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm wondering whether this article falls under WP:NOT a dictionary. Aren't "New Game Plus" and "Clear Game" just terms? This article is just a definition and examples - I don't see what qualifies it other than the first time it was used. Maybe you could transwiki it instead.

EDIT: Never mind - New Game Plus is a "concept", thus it merits its own article. Or else it can be merged into an article about general gameplay.--ZXCVBNM 07:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Where it originates from

The first zelda is not an example of the definition provided here, where you keep certain aspects from your original quest. This is infact seen in the 'Adventure of Link' where you can start a new quest using the experince points used in the original quest. I have removed the reference that was provided earlier, At earliest based on the zelda definition originally in the article its Mario 1, but its clearly nmothing more than a second quest with higher challenge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.69.44 (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Unless you can provide references to support that then we need to keep it as is. The Zelda reference is from a reliable source, so it's getting put back until we have a better reference. --Teancum (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Contesting the PROD.

As my edit summary said, I am contesting this PROD as I believe that the term is notable. In addition to it being used by the game developers themselves to refer to a feature where you can replay a game with differences in it, this talk page already has a list higher up which lists several good examples of games which use this feature. Some articles even document the effect this feature has in such games. Unfortunately, sourcing this is difficult without turning the page into more of a list, giving examples of each usage in many different games, as there is no definitive industry definition, and it varies from genre to genre, and from game to game. Whilst I do not think this should be deleted, I do agree that the page should be improved. The video games taskforce has been notified of this, so hopefully we can do something with it. If there is little that can be done to the page, then I welcome it being taken to AfD. Thank you, --Taelus (talk) 15:02, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, if there is "no definitive industry definition" and not all the games listed have a feature called "New Game Plus" then this article (an article that has been tagged for these problems since 2007 with no attempt at improvement) is a blatant violation of WP:NEO, WP:OR, WP:SYN and quite probably WP:N and should not exist on Wikipedia. Would you be willing to replace the PROD tag or must we sit through the tedium of an AFD? L0b0t (talk) 16:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I think you're mispredicting the outcome of the AFD. There is no doubt in my mind that it will survive, my main concern is improving the article. The fact is that the term "New Game Plus" is used countless times in reference to this concept in mainstream video game reviews all the time. The pity is that no one has sat down to properly make a "definitive industry definition", which actually would more than likely stifle creativity in the industry than otherwise. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
There is a concept of video games that is attempted to be explained by the present article - in that on second and subsequent playings of the game, there are changes that occur in the game - whether that includes transfer of existing equipment/skills/etc., whether new sections become unlocked, or so forth. "New Game Plus" is the most commonly named term for it, but not all games call it out as such nor is the concept always called out as "New Game Plus" when discussed in literature ( note: for sourcing, most game reviews will have some comment that can be used to demonstrate that this exists, should the game provide that option). If there's a better term that I'm unaware of ("multiple playthroughs" would be the next most likely one), we should name the article that, though not ignore that "New Game Plus" is a proper noun that is used to refer to those (a redirect can be made for search purposes). The topic itself is fine, but there's organization that needs to figured out. --MASEM (t) 16:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I understand the concept, I understand that video game reviews occasionally use the term to refer to a certain method of play but I feel that the term and concept have received such slight coverage by reliable sources as to not meet the inclusion criteria laid out at WP:N, WP:SYN, and Wikipedia:NEO#Articles on neologisms. This topic would be better treated as part of a larger article on video game play. L0b0t (talk) 17:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I would hardly call heaps and heaps of references "slight coverage". There have been so many pieces done on the fact that Mass Effect 2 doesn't have NG+ that I had a bit of trouble finding things not related to that. Where could it be merged to? Axem Titanium (talk) 18:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
If the article contained "heaps and heaps of references" It never would have been PRODded in the first place. It does not have "heaps and heaps of references" it has 2, one of which does not even back up the claim it is cited for and it has been tagged as needing references sine 2007. Again, please read WP:N, WP:SYN, and Wikipedia:NEO#Articles on neologisms this article fails all of them. L0b0t (talk) 22:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I changed the reference so now it does support the statements they are attached to, if you didn't notice. As I said, many articles reference this concept (I can provide examples if you don't believe me), but there are few that specifically discuss NG+ by itself, which makes finding suitable sources difficult. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I do believe you. I agree that the concept exists but I feel that to lump all games with a similar feature under a blanket term is editorial synthesis. There just does not seem to be enough coverage in reliable sources discussing the usage shift from a specific feature coded into certain games (which, I can only assume as the article makes no mention, is a trademark held by a publisher or developer) into a generic term for any game that features any methodology for multiple, variable dependent plays. There just doesn't seem to be enough here to warrant a discrete article. Perhaps a larger article on game play could be crafted from this and Unlockable game?
Actually I just found what seems, to me, to be a great merge target for both this article and Unlockable game. What say you to incorporating both into Game mechanics? L0b0t (talk) 03:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm afraid I'm not the arbiter for this page so I don't have the power to approve or disapprove such a merge. Maybe you should talk to WT:VG about it. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:44, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia, nobody is an arbiter of any article and projects have no more editorial control over a given article than anyone else. This is the talk page, the place for discussing such things. Do you have an opinion on the merge? L0b0t (talk) 00:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
True, but the project is a good place to get a wider opinion and establish consensus. Even if we both agreed on a merge, two people is not a consensus. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm surprised that we don't have an article about unlockable game content in general. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 06:44, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
  1. ^ Major Nelson (2007-09-28). "Marketplace Roundup for September 28, 2007". majornelson.com. Retrieved 2007-09-30. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
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