Talk:Nicolás Maduro

Edit request on 27 March 2024, Nicolás Maduro biography error.

Nicolás Maduro Moros (Spanish: [nikoˈlas maˈðuɾo ˈmoɾos] ^ⓘ; born 23 November 1962) is a Venezuelan politician who has served as the president of Venezuela since 2013.

This definition of Nicolás Maduro is wrong and outdated.

Nicolás Maduro is not to be considered a President, since elections in Venezuela failed to follow any international guidelines for democratic elections even before 2013, the year Maduro came into power. Nicolás Maduro is in fact a dictator, persecuting any legitimate opposition inside the country. Also committed many violations of Human Rights through the use of Venezuela's security forces, as reported in Protests against Nicolás Maduro. His government's attitude towards democracy in the 2024 Venezuelan elections have been dictatorial from the very start, purging UN observers from the country. As of March 27th 2024, Maduro also barred Corina Yoris from running for presidency. Yoris was already a substitute runner for María Corina Machado, a persecuted Venezuelan politician impeded from running for office by the Venezuelan Supreme Justice for 15 years, after winning the primary elections with 90% of the popular vote.

Suggested changes:

Nicolás Maduro Moros (Spanish: [nikoˈlas maˈðuɾo ˈmoɾos] ^ⓘ; born 23 November 1962) is a Venezuelan politician who has ruled as a dictator in the country of Venezuela since 2013.

Sources: https://2017-2021.state.gov/a-democratic-crisis-in-venezuela/ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/27/venezuela-court-disqualifies-leading-opposition-presidential-candidate https://salazar.house.gov/media/press-releases/chairwoman-salazar-invites-venezuelan-presidential-candidate-maria-corina https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/03/25/venezuela-s-new-opposition-candidate-an-unknown-80-year-old-academic_6653224_4.html https://www.forbes.com/sites/eliasferrerbreda/2024/03/11/the-regime-must-negotiate-with-me-interview-with-maria-corina-machado/?sh=74fdc01c6ac6 FardoObsceno (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE, the first sentence of biographical articles should usually avoid contentious terms. See articles of other similar political leaders for examples (e.g. Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin, etc.). Consensus is needed to make an exception. Liu1126 (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The suggested edit previously submitted in itself, does not contain "contentious terms". The justification does, and it's not against the rules. After severe evaluation I can say your justification for blocking this edit is just as contentious. Consensus is found as per previously mentioned sources. I believe you're being biased, how can I contact support? FardoObsceno (talk) 02:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The contentious term is precisely the word "dictator". The word itself is a negative term that is considered contentious and possibly non-NPOV (see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 May 22#Category:Dictators and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of dictators). You are also seriously misunderstanding the concept of consensus. This is not about whether there's consensus among sources, but whether there's consensus among editors. If you think consensus may develop for using the term in the first sentence, feel free to start a new discussion on this talk page. You are also warned that accusing others of bias may be seen as a personal attack. Liu1126 (talk) 03:21, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

See Supreme Leader (North Korean title) for reference of similar - if not synonymous - words that fit current Venezuelan leader's title, Maduro exerts power through supreme characteristics given by illegitimate elections, thus Venezuela fits characteristics of Dictator thus it should be corrected. Again there's disagreement in other descriptions for what both of your observations considering Dictator as a contentious. It's simply accurate. FardoObsceno (talk) 22:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit: There's a wrong reference to Dictator, the correct reference should be Dictatorship as the subject is the country of Venezuela. FardoObsceno (talk) 22:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you intend to show by referencing the Supreme Leader (North Korean title) article; a personal comparison of two leadership positions, unbacked by reliable sources, can hardly demonstrate an equivalence between the two, and the Supreme Leader article itself doesn't use the word dictator or synonyms of the word anyway.

To summarise what I believe is the conflict so far, my position is that the term "dictator" is a contentious term and hence would be unadvisable to be used in the first sentence per MOS:BIOFIRSTSENTENCE save for exceptional circumstances, while you believe that since Maduro's activities and the current political state of Venezuela fit the descriptions of a dictator and a dictatorship, respectively, the use of such term should not be considered contentious.

I will be absent for an extended period of time starting from the end of this month and hence cannot continue this discussion past then, but my position has been stated quite clearly above and we seem to have reached an impasse anyway. I have left messages with a few relevant WikiProjects in hope that their members will join us here and help reach consensus. Liu1126 (talk) 02:36, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Accession date

It says that Maduro became the president on 5 March 2013 as soon as his predecessor, Hugo Chávez died. However, Maduro became the acting president on 5 March and didn't officially become the president until 19 April of that same year.

Suggested changes:

Assumed office: 19 April 2013 Acting: 5 March – 19 April 2013 219.77.28.65 (talk) 07:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I do see your point. However, I believe acting president is sufficient. I looked up examples of people who took their position prior to being elected: Ed Lee, Lyndon B. Johnson, and Gerald Ford. In every case, the assumption of office is based on the date they starting acting in the capacity of that position. So for Maduro, the date should be 5 March 2013 rather than 19 April 2013. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:38, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I get it on how you see it, but then Ed Lee, Gerald Ford, and Lyndon B. Johnson were never Acting Presidents (and Mayor) as they became the new president (for Johnson and Ford) and mayor (for Lee) as soon their predecessors (Assassination of John F. Kennedy for LBJ, Resignation for Ford, and the resignation of Gavin Newsom for Lee) term came to an end.

Maduro however is different, and there is a point on why it shoudl be 19 April 2013, not 5 March. When he became the Acting President, it was on the news. From 5 March to 19 April 2013, Maduro was reffered to as the Acting (or Interim as some people would call it) President, not President. Ford, Johnson, and Lee has nothing to do with this as like I said, they're never Acting Presidents (and Mayor). Even in other wikipedias (especially the spanish Wikipedia), Maduro's accession date is clearly 19 April, not 5 March.

I understand that you think that the assumption of office is based on the date they starting acting in the capacity of that position. Also, in Google, it clearly says that Maduro's assumption of office as president is 19 April, not 5 March.

This is an evidence, but also, there is a reason. Some people will get confused as Maduro's real accession date is 19 April, but here says 5 March. So please, change it. If you don't want it, let's at least hold a vote. Also, you can just put Acting: 5 March – 19 April 2013 below the assumption date.

Also, for the President of Venezuela page, don't change back the entire page just because of the accession date, at least you should have just changed the accession date, not the entire page, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 13:08, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Even in other wikipedias (especially the spanish Wikipedia), Maduro's accession date is clearly 19 April, not 5 March.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. If you are not familiar with reliable sources, see: WP:RS. However, it would probably be better to have consistency across the various languages. I don't know if there are differences in how this is handled in other languages or countries.

Also, in Google, it clearly says that Maduro's assumption of office as president is 19 April, not 5 March.

Google is not a reliable source--but is useful in finding reliable sources.

I believe the 5 March date has been in the article for quite some time, so it is better to leave it as it was as long as the reliable sources do not contract it. Please see: WP:BRD.

don't change back the entire page just because of the accession date

What other changes did you make in this edit at President of Venezuela that you believe should be restored? --David Tornheim (talk) 01:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you're right. In other wikipedias (mainly the Spanish wikipedia), the date is 5 March. Also, the other changes at President of Venezuela that I made and that I believe should be restored is the space, and the image. Basically everything but the date, thanks. 219.77.28.65 (talk) 01:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I restored the new photo, see #Photo, where I discuss size. As for adding the space in the template, I don't see that as an improvement. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

IP user is correct here. The reason those American politicians don't have "acting" in the infobox is because, in the American political system (per the 25th Ammendment), a veep immediately becomes president in the event of a vacancy. But this is not the case in every country's political system, and indeed many of them only allow a person to ascend to "acting" or "interim" presidency, with the full title reserved for those who were elected. For example, Vladimir Putin, Francesco Cossiga, Ranil Wickremesinghe, Ghulam Ishaq Khan all make note of their periods of "acting president" within their overall term in office. I don't see why Maduro should be an exception. — Kawnhr (talk) 18:34, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Photo

I restored the new 2023 photo originally added by OliverDF at President of Venezuela per the last comment of the above section. Also, I did not see any reason to increase the size of the pic, but I understand if others disagree. --David Tornheim (talk) 08:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks 219.77.28.65 (talk) 01:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

One-Sidedness

If you are going to call Maduro an "autocrat" and cite conservative think tanks as your sources (clear political bias) then provide the other side of the argument. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a defecating America Propaganda Machine. Lysentalin (talk) 19:32, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Ahh yes, the ever persisting conservative political bias of wikipedia. 47.54.220.12 (talk) 02:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Agreed this page is insanely biased. Looks like the CIA wrote it personally 2600:1700:B6D0:1930:7CB7:773A:BF9F:8D1D (talk) 04:29, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has a heavy left-wing bias problem, not a right-wing one. 2605:B100:13D:5CF9:3C62:246E:4611:77AF (talk) 04:31, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

"20,000 extrajudicial killings"

Lead section includes this statement:

"According to estimations by the United Nations (UN) and Human Rights Watch, under Maduro's administration, more than 20,000 people have been subject to extrajudicial killings and seven million Venezuelans have been forced to flee the country"

This struck me as surprising, and when I reviewed the cited HRW and UN materials, these are the only relevant portions I could find in the cited material:

"Between 2016 and 2019, security forces alleged “resistance to authority” in more than 19,000 killings. Evidence showed many were extrajudicial killings." - Human Rights Watch

"Special Action Forces described by witnesses as “death squads” killed 5,287 people in 2018 and another 1,569 by mid-May of this year" - The Independent (citing the UN)

It may improve the neutrality of the article to strike the "more than 20,000" extrajudicial killings figure until a reliable source supports it. Perhaps a worthy rewrite would match the figures in the sources and/or convey the nuance described in such sources. Mihir.pethe1 (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This article is not neutral in any way at all 2600:1700:B6D0:1930:7CB7:773A:BF9F:8D1D (talk) 04:28, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

how is there not a series on this man

how is there not an article series on this man 108.27.60.251 (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

No political views section?

In my experience, most articles for politicians mention their described politics in the opening body or in a section on Political Views. See the section on Bukele, for instance. Nayib Bukele#Political views

Is this deliberate or just an oversight? 162.222.63.62 (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

You presume there are some? Sources? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm surprised and a bit confused to see you suggesting there aren't :)

Autocracy Rising by Javier Corrales PhD seems like a good place to start. Plenty of other books, that's just the first I'm familiar with.

I'd be happy to find some relevant passages and prepare a section. 162.222.63.62 (talk) 11:43, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Edit request on July 29th 2024. Typo

In the final paragraph of the Controversies section, there is a typo of "administration's Biden", when it should be "Biden's administration". 75.76.148.132 (talk) 01:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

No longer president

Why hasn't the article been updated to mention he lost, by a landslide no less!

Wikipedia moderators, why are you defending this tyrant?! 206.84.247.108 (talk) 16:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Because the mods don't like facts. You would think that at the very least there would be a "disputed since 2024" note or something, like is done with the Belarus president, but it's always a fight to put these facts in. 2605:B100:13D:5CF9:3C62:246E:4611:77AF (talk) 04:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

There was a lot of discussion about this in the past, when Juan Guaido declared himself acting president. Policy says that we should follow what reliable sources say. Normally they are more concerned with who is actually running a country than their legitimacy. TFD (talk) 05:32, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, especially about Juan Guaido. More importantly, the Venezuelan authorities have declared that he won the election: "Venezuela’s National Electoral Council (CNE) on Monday formally declared Maduro the winner of the vote." [1] It's strange how U.S. presidents think they can decide who won other countries' elections, the way they have done by force in regime change. --David Tornheim (talk) 21:51, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

"defending this tyrant" this isnt an anti-authoritarian website, user, although i agree that we should add a 'disputed' note, Maduro is still unfortunately in power whether we like it or not. 108.27.60.251 (talk) 14:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

also just because he de facto lost an election doesnt remove him from the office, you know how fraudulent the venezuelan government can be, not everything works like it does in first world countries lol 108.27.60.251 (talk) 14:59, 2 August 2024 (UTC)