Talk:Palestinian Christians/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Christy Anastas

Why do we have so much on due weight in one paragraph? This lady's family and her whole home town disagree with her. The inhabitance of Betheleham, like all other Christians in Palestine have stated that Israel was the problem not them. In fact, less than two years ago she was on "60 Miniutes" stating how Israel was the problem as well. I don't see the point of having undue weight and pointless info so I have gone and removed it. AcidSnow (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians

This Wikipedia article is distorted by Orwellian magnitude. Nearly all Internet articles about Christian exodus from Palestine identify Muslim abuse of Christians as the main reason. The abuse includes intimidation, beatings, land theft, firebombing of churches and other Christian institutions, denial of employment, economic boycotts, torture, kidnapping, forced marriage, sexual harassment, and extortion. Palestinian Christians face severe repressions when they complain about the abuse, so they prefer not to talk about it. Khaled Abu Toameh is a Muslim journalist, and yet he confirms the Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians.[1] On the other hand, this Wikipedia article completely ignores the Muslim abuse of Christians. The article says that "The vast majority of Palestinian Christians blame the exodus on Israel."[2] The reference points to Bernard Sabella's article. In fact, Sabella does not claim that Israel is the main reason for the exodus. He says: "But why do Christians leave at a higher rate than the rest of the population? The answer is not simple as it involves interrelated factors and their mutual effects on one another..." Sabella does not mention the Muslim abuse of Palestinian Christians because if he did, he would have to flee Bethlehem for his life. Sabella fears Muslims repressions so much that he does not even mention dhimmitude in a historical chapter about Muslim-Christian relations. One of the sources cited in this Wikipedia article is a Muslim propaganda outfit called Palestinian Centre for Research and Cultural Dialogue. Since Arafat took over administration of the Palestinian territories from Israel, the Christian population has dropped from 15 percent to 2 percent. If Palestinian Christians were fleeing Israeli oppression, why did they leave after the Israelis left? It makes no sense. The only way Israel has fed the exodus of Christians from the Middle East is by withdrawing from territories in Judea, Samaria, Gaza, southern Lebanon and elsewhere. When Israel administered those areas, Christian Arabs lived in safety and security. The truth is the Christian population in Israel has more than quadrupled since 1948 because Israel guarantees religious freedom to everyone.Quinacrine (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your edits ... the only WP:RS among the articles you added is the Wall Street Journal article. You may add a summary of what it says alongside what Sabella says. hesays the 1948 war accounts for thr majority of the Christian exodus. we should rephrase accordingly in our article and add spmething from the WSJ too. But your edits were overkill. Tiamuttalk 18:15, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
I reverted your edit. You have totally ignored all my sources and the overwhelming evidence that Muslims abuse Christians. Sabella is not a reliable source, and he does not blame Israel. You do not expect someone living in North Korea to criticize North Korean government. For the same reason you cannot expect Sabella to criticize Muslims. I left Sabella as a gesture of compromise, but you have no intention to compromise.Quinacrine (talk) 01:30, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted your edit again. After re-reading the sources, its clear not one of them is a reliable source. You can take this issue to WP:RSN to confirm ifyou like. I encourage you to do so before readding this material again. Tiamuttalk 18:21, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
I agree. It seems that any information that criticizes Palestinian Muslims or defends Israel, including primary source material by actual Palestinian Christians alleging abuse, is immediately deleted. I hope we see more tolerance of alternative viewpoints on this page. 76.105.6.149 (talk) 09:07, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Multiple issues

I believe the discussion lacks some important points.

  • the article lacks adequate sourcing and proper statistical figures. We need a clearer picture of the development including the amounts of arab Christians before and after 1936-1939 and 1948.
  • The article has multiple overlaps with Christianity in Israel and Christianity in the Middle East, neither with a suitable overview of basic history and facts. The recent enhancement of After Saturday Comes Sunday does imho a better job on that.
  • According Colonialism and Christianity in Mandate Palestine, by Laura Robson, the major clashes started during the mandate periode, before the founding of Israel. The british anglicans and the traditional Eastern churches where on rather bad terms and the Eastern Churches felt being left alone by their western sister churches. There is no overview of that. Try Cultural Conversions: Unexpected Consequences of Christian Missionary Encounters in the Middle East, Africa, and South Asia Heather Jane Sharkey Syracuse University Press, 01.01.2013
  • Faith or social issues: The current reasoning in the text about the reason for exodus of Christian palestinians as "(well educated and rich and) non-violence and of open personalities, which leaves them more vulnerable to criminals than Muslims" shows a rather dire perspective on their neighbors. Thats more of a social and political issue than a question of pure interfaith issues.
    • Christians were better off and wanted to stay so, "We want no progress, no prosperity" as by Mufti al-Husseini was never an option for them. Right so. Compare Olim le Berlin ;)
    • The failure of palestinian majorities to elect or support able leaders and to do away with corrupt idiots (Arafats decision to back the Saddam Husseins invasion in Kuweit has sent more Palestinians into exile than the foundation of Israel) was more of a problem than anything about faith.
  • That said, don't try to state single incidents to confirm or deny religious issues, get the figures right and provide the larger picture, and straightline with the other articles.Serten (talk) 20:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
So edit away to improve it. Most articles have numerous issues. That is no warrant for smearing the page with tags. You added the largest shopping list of complaints I have ever seen on wikipedia, so I removed it. Tags serve when there is obstructionism. Nishidani (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
;) Serten (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Where do most Palestinian Christians immigrate to?

Are there any statistics or insight into what countries most Palestinian Christians have been immigrating to in recent years? Are Jordan and Lebanon the chief countries they are settling in, or are they mostly moving to Europe and North America? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.97.221 (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Ben-Zion Gopstein / Lehava issue

What, exactly, is the argument made for not including this controversy over Gopstein in the article as it stands today? Why is it being removed? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Ethnic group

Some editors have recently changed the scope of the article to "ethnic group", though previously the page described the "Christians of Palestine" (Palestinian Christians) as a religious affiliation of modern and historic Christian residents of Palestine. Considering a similar discussion of Maronite ethnicity (in Lebanon), i would like to invite @Elie plus, George Al-Shami, FunkMonk, Attar-Aram syria, Al Ameer son, and Jonney2000: to express their opinion whether Palestinian Christians are an ethnicity or not.GreyShark (dibra) 23:05, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Palestinian Christians being an ethnic group is news to me. Do Palestinian Christians view themselves as an ethnic group? Are there any serious RS that credibly describe the Palestinian Christians as an ethnic group? I think the answer is no for both of these questions. As far as I know, Palestinian Christians are Palestinians who belong to various Christian denominations such as the Greek Orthodox, Melkite and Protestant churches. --Al Ameer (talk) 01:06, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
It would be a real stretch to call this group of people an "ethnic group". Zerotalk 01:58, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I concur with the above editors, Palestinian Christians, by themselves, are not an ethnic group by virtue of the fact that they (the overwhelming majority) share the same DNA, language, history, and customs/traditions with Palestinian Muslims. For a small number of Palestinian Christians, especially around Jerusalem, they have what is called the "Crusader Seed" where they are the descendants of mixed marriages between the indigenous Palestinian Christians and the foreign European Crusader. For instance in one book (The Body and the Blood) the author profiles a Palestinian Christian Jerusalemite family that has an Italian surname, however no one in the family speaks a word of Italian, and one of the family members mentioned that according to their family oral history they are the descendants of an Italian Crusader. In one article another Palestinian Christian family that has a french surname was profiled, but again, no one in that family speaks a lick of French. So even though a small number of Palestinian Christians have Crusader genes in their family DNA, they don't speak the languages of their Crusading ancestors, and by consequence of that and other factors, it doesn't make them a separate ethnicity. George Al-Shami (talk) 06:22, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
One source, for a Nabil Khattab, is cited to back that claim and reading the abstract alone was enough for me to dismiss the entire paper. According to Khattab he studied "five ethnic groups" to demonstrate earning disparity (European Jews (Ashkenazi), Asian-African Jews (Sephardi), Muslim Palestinians, Christian Palestinians and Druze Palestinians.) While the Jewish people from different backgrounds can claim different ethnicities the same cannot be said about Palestinians. I am amazed how a "scholar" can so casually mix religious affiliation with ethnicity. -~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 07:42, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I agree with the above, and in any case, what matters is what most reliable sources say. FunkMonk (talk) 15:44, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I believe Palestinian Christians can be considered an ethnic division within the Palestinian ethnic group itself, as per the source, religious identity is an ethnic factor.Lazyfoxx (talk) 20:19, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
"An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic groups are also usually united by common cultural, behavioural, linguistic, or religious practices."Lazyfoxx (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Get the DEFINITION right first

..., then continue from there. That's what I've always been taught. I mean the first sentence of the lead. It is a weird mix of as-of-yet wishful thinking (state), and overly narrow scope for the article. This is an encyclopedia, not a work of diplomacy - it should be dealing with realities, past or present. The term "Palestinian Christian" or "Christian Palestinian" certainly did exist before 1948. So if there has been agreed to separate West Bank and Gaza Christians from Christians in Israel (has that been agreed?), which can have some good and some bad arguments in its favour, that still doesn't mean separating them retroactively (pre-1948). I am sure @Nishidani: can provide some good Mandate-period documents with the correct terminology - and maybe even some Late Ottoman ones. The Ottoman ones might show that "Palestinian Christians" is a term that only appeared during the Mandate, or maybe I'm very wrong, I don't know. N.b.: one can still create a definition independently from old terminology. But since the "History" chapter goes all the way back to Jesus, then Palestine (region) is the geographical area of this article, not the Palestinian Authority or the yet fictitious State of Palestine. You can set in a heading "After 1948 in Israel" and put a "main" tag leading to "Israeli Arabs#Christians" and leave the rest empty, but any entity that gets split and diverges into separate entities, can only be separated AFTER the split. Either change the definition, or the range of the history chapter. But we have no "South Syrian/Levantine/Holy Land Christians" page, which would cover the topic and then some, so this one needs to be made more coherent. The definition is the essential step. Enjoy, I'm off to lesser minefields :-)
PS: Christian churches always tended to disregard current borders. Bishoprics and patriarchies cross state boundaries, and nominal sees exist long after the last Christian has disappeared from their territory. Not a good topic for "current affairs" editors. ArmindenArminden (talk) 19:04, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

(off the cuff response.
(a) you can get Christians defined as Palestinian as early as 1920 in a survey of the regime's officials . But
(b) Historical writing when it adopts 'Palestinian Christians' as one of the standard descriptive terms for the indigenous Christians of Palestine in earlier times, has established that this is a normal mode of reference, of which examples abound. 'Palestinian' here is a toponymic value, and one should not get, as so often is the case here, one's knickers in a twist with the idea it implies a Palestinian state, or whatever.Nishidani (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Chile

It would be useful to have a section about Palestinian Christians in Chile. Sources I've seen state that Chile is home to more Palestinian Christians than any other country. Thus, a discussion of the Chilean perspective is absolutely essential for this article! But, at the moment there is only cursory mention of Chile. I don't have the expertise to write this section myself (without doing a lot of research), but there seems to be quite a lot of (Spanish language) literature available. OtterAM (talk) 15:47, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

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Using Christian Broadcasting Network as a source....even with attribution

I looked through WP:RS/N, and found three references to Christian Broadcasting Network:

It seems as if a couple of the editors who are most for keeping CBN, are editors who since have become banned (User:Fladrif, User:The Devil's Advocate). I suggest we remove the CBN source, as there are far, far better sources on Palestinian Christians, Huldra (talk) 22:39, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

We need an alternative opinion to Haaretz (the POV you just added), and I don't see a problem with such a source which represents Christians worldwide, provided it's properly attributed.--יניב הורון (talk) 16:58, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
"Represents Christians worldwide" — are you joking? They don't represent more that a tiny fringe of American Christians. Zerotalk 18:59, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Whatever. They represent many Christians.--יניב הורון (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Like heck they do. They represent a tiny (but loud!) minority of Christians. No Christians I know would want to be seen within miles of them.... This is like saying Meir Kahane represents all Jews. Huldra (talk) 20:26, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 14 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No move after two weeks and a relisting. Cúchullain t/c 15:04, 31 May 2019 (UTC)


Palestinian Christians → Christianity in Palestine – Per WP:CONSISTENCY with formula in most equivalent articles: Islam in Palestine, Ahmadiyya in Palestine, Catholic Church in Palestine, etc. One might argue that there is a need for "Palestinian Christians", but until someone create these two different articles, if there is but one, the scope should be prioritised as Christianity in Palestine, isn't it? PPEMES (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Cúchullain t/c 13:43, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose per WP:PRECISION. The proposed title does not reflect the content of the article, which is primarily about Palestinian people who are Christian and not about Christianity in Palestine. It is consistent with Arab Christians in this regard. —  AjaxSmack  00:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

12 million Palestinians?

What is the source to such a number?GreyShark (dibra) 18:30, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Errors in article

The article gives a figure of 20% of all Palestinians being Palestinian Christian which is incorrect and the source provided with it is also irrelevant. Also, Ahed Tamimi isn't a Palestinian Christian so there is no reason for her to be included in the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.215.176.171 (talk) 12:25, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2020

Pierbattista Pizzaballa is the current Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem since 6 November 2020.[3] --Habibicb (talk) 01:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "The Beleaguered Christians in Bethlehem". Gatestone Institute. 2008-5-12. Retrieved 2012-02-07. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  2. ^ Sabella, Bernard (February 12, 2003). "Palstinian Christians: Challenges and hopes". Al-Bushra Palestinian Christians.
  3. ^ "Catholic Hierarchy". Retrieved 22 December 2020.
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 14:17, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 February 2021

Under 'Modern day', change the statement that the Latin Patriarchate is vacant and that Pierbattisa Pizzaballa is no longer the apostolic administrator but was appointed as the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem on 6 November 2020 by Pope Francis. Deanpaul545 (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Volteer1 (talk) 16:03, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
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