Talk:Patrice Evra/GA1

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Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk) 19:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this article, but it may take a while. Also, I am having to take the foreign language sources largely on trust. So far, it looks very good and very comprehensive. It seems very well written in general and most problems are fairly minor MOS ones or overlinking. I've done the first two sections so far (I've left the lead till last). My only minor complaint so far would be that it seems to rely largely on what Evra has said about himself for his early life, but this may be unavoidable and is not a problem as far as passing GA.

Personal life

  • Overlinking: capital city, culture, values, circumcision.
These are only linked once in the article. I don't understand. I removed them anyway, though. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To clarify, WP:OVERLINKING says that common terms should not be linked at all in an article. So these words do not need linking. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does ref 4 say that his father was a diplomat? I can't really tell, but my (very poor) French and google translate (although not really doing a good job, to be honest!) suggests not.
No, but ref 6 is used to reference that his father was a diplomat. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, you need to change the ref, as "Evra's father was a diplomat and, when Evra was 12 months old, moved to Brussels in Belgium to work at the Senegalese embassy." is covered by ref 4.

--Sarastro1 (talk) 09:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra was raised on Senegalese culture and values that quickly became "Westernized"": I'm not too sure what this means. Were the Senegalese culture and values westernised, or were Evra's interpretations of them westernised? And why are quotation marks needed here?
I'd say it was the latter. Quotation marks are used because Evra was quoted as saying this in the reference. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...and, at the age of ten, returned to Senegal for a short period describing the return as "not a good experience" primarily because he ventured back to the country to undergo circumcision." This is a long sentence. I would suggest breaking it into a new sentence after Westernised.
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He has not returned to the country since." : This needs to be changed to "as of 2011", per WP:DATED.
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "though the player has stated he never really had an idol" Redundancy: you don't need to say "though the player has stated".
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:DATED again: "Presently" and "is currently attempting".
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra developed an interest in football at a young age and was fascinated by the play of former Brazilian international Romário, though the player has stated he never really had an idol. He also earned good grades in school." This does not seem to be referenced.
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Early career

  • Overlinking: street football, trials
Same with 'Personal life'. Only linked once. Unlinked street football. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See above: WP:OVERLINKING. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:DATED: "who now serves as the vice-president of the club"
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra ventured on trials with several clubs": Slightly odd phrasing. "..went on trials..." would be better.
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Close repetition of "ultimately" at the end of the first paragraph.
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After failing to convince Paris Saint-Germain officials..." After failing to convince them of what?
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after possible moves to Serie A clubs Roma and Lazio failed to come to fruition": Wordy. What about "after potential moves ... came to nothing."
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He left the club following one season after developing friction with the club coach." I don't think this quite reflects the source, which says the coach was not interested in him. Could it be altered a little? --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. JSRant Away 00:02, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Missed one earlier: "In 1993, he joined amateur club CSF Brétigny based in nearby Brétigny-sur-Orge. Similar to his stint with Les Ulis, Evra went on trials with several clubs, most notably Toulouse and Paris Saint-Germain. He was ultimately signed by the latter club and converted into a winger. Evra trained at the Camp des Loges for a few months, but was later released.": This needs a ref.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • And Ref 13 says the source is in French, but it isn't. --Sarastro1 (talk) 12:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nice

  • "He primarily played as a winger..." Not supported by ref 16.
I'll just switch it to midfielder as that's what the source says. — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "team's 3–0 shutout win": Shutout not really necessary.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra played as either a left winger or a centre forward in the matches.": I'd move this before the list of refs to cover his appearances, as the same ref will cover this. (I'm assuming that his position in the team list covers where he played (I'm a bit rusty on this personally!). If not, it may need another ref to show where he played, and a non-football person may not understand this. Not a problem for me, but worth bearing in mind).
Changed it to striker as that is what the reference states. — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was promoted to the first team on a permanent basis": This needs a ref, as it is not covered by the match summaries. It would be covered by a list of his appearances for the team such as the current ref 151. (But see below.)
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Towards the end of the match, reserve left back Jean-Charles Cirilli, who was starting in place of the regular starter José Cobos, suffered an injury, which required the player to be substituted out." The names of the players are not covered by ref 13.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He appeared regularly in the campaign and, following the return of Cobos, was even allowed to play in his preferred left wing role.": Needs a ref.
I inserted this because when I was looking researching Nice's matches during the season, Cobos, the starting left back, and Evra appeared in the lineup together in several matches. Should I list the match reports as references? — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... A couple of ways forward here that I have come across on cricket FAs. One way is placing a note to explain this and to give a reference where the reader could check it out for themselves, but I'm not sure sure this is the best way unless there are lots of matches. For example, ref 34 on Wally Hammond, a featured article. The other way is to avoid having a long string of references to the match reports by placing a note and putting all the references in the note. For example, Note 2 on another FA, Herbie Hewett. Either of these would work. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:39, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Monaco

  • "Monaco climatically conceded first place to Lyon in May": Not sure what climatically means here.
After being in first place for most of the season, Monaco lost first place at the most intense point (climax) of the season. — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The victory allowed Monaco to maintain its position at the top of the table as the club was in a three-way battle with Lyon and Marseille. Monaco climatically conceded first place to Lyon in May, which resulted in the club being declared champions for the first time in its history. Monaco finished the campaign in second place, which merited the club an appearance in the UEFA Champions League." Needs a ref.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After the season, Marquez and Jurietti departed the club for Spanish club Barcelona and Bordeaux, respectively. The two were replaced by Gaël Givet and Hugo Ibarra, the latter player joining the club on loan. In the 2003–04 league season, Evra appeared in 33 matches assisting on four goals. Monaco spent six months from September to March in first place, but, like last season, conceded the top spot to Lyon as the season wore on. Evra made his UEFA Champions League debut on 17 September 2003..." None of this has a reference.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He appeared in all six group stage matches as Monaco finished in first place.": Needs a ref. (But see below)
I don't know how to reference this. I know he appeared in all six group stage matches because I personally reviewed the match reports. Do I post all the match reports or do I post the UEFA link that shows Monaco finishing in first place or both? — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both, probably, but see above about needing to reference multiple match reports.

--Sarastro1 (talk) 20:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Done. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra subsequently missed three weeks in the league, but was healthy enough to return for the team's second leg quarter-final tie against Madrid" No ref.
The reference is in the next link over. I'll put it there too. — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't mention the three weeks. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:52, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Same with the UEFA matches. He was injured in the Madrid match. After that, I personally looked at every match Monaco played in those three weeks between the first leg of the Madrid match and the second leg of the Madrid match. He did not play in any of them, hence he missed three weeks and returned for the second leg. I guess I will follow the same protocol by grouping the references in a note. — JSRant Away 23:38, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was also named to the organization's Ligue 1 Team of the Year." No ref.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite missing out on playing in UEFA Euro 2004..." No ref.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 42 is not in French.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the season, Evra was a regular appearing in a career-high 52 matches scoring one goal and assisting on seven as Monaco reached the semi-finals in both the Coupe de la Ligue and Coupe de France. " Needs a ref. However, if you believe that this (and the one above) is covered by the ref at the end of the article, I would be happy to let this go: my preference would be to reference this, but this is not a problem for passing the article.
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra appeared in nine of the ten matches the team contested in the competition." Ref?
Done.
  • "Despite several clubs declaring interest in Evra, Deschamps declared that the player would not be sold. At the start of the 2005–06 season, Deschamps installed Evra as a vice-captain. In September, Deschamps surprisingly resigned as manager of the club due to the club's poor start, despite the media declaring it was because of his constant disagreements with the club president." No ref.--Sarastro1 (talk) 12:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I am a little concerned at this point by the number of statements without a reference. Anything to do with appearances, I can accept if the intention is that the ref at the end covers it all. However, there are many others in the Nice and Monaco sections which need a ref. I would appreciate if you could check the rest of the article to ensure that everything has a ref before I continue with this review. There do not seem to be too many other issues so far, and all other checks of the references are OK. Prose and comprehensiveness are excellent, it is just the refs that need sorting out so far. --Sarastro1 (talk) 12:24, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't be anymore issues. Manchester United section is pretty well-sourced given the club and its huge profile in the media. Same with the national team. Might be a few minor issues. — JSRant Away 18:47, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Everything seems fine now, although I admit my brain is a little fried from checking all the references! But looks good up to here. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:57, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2006-08

  • "Evra regularly alternated between the bench and the starting eleven to close out the campaign. He finished the half season with 14 total appearances." Needs a ref.
I used Evra's ESPN profile as my reference. Problem is, the reference doesn't link to what you want it to. In this case, I want it to link to the match-by-match report for Evra in the 2006–07 season. It doesn't. Just goes directly to his profile. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 74 does not support the match being Evra's debut.
Did you mean Ref 84? I found a reference saying it was his debut. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about his Champions League debut, and the ref given does not mention Evra.
  • " the left back went on a streak, in which he started nine consecutive matches." Not supported by ref.
See your first review comment in this section. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The goal was his first-ever in the Champions League and helped progress Manchester United to the semi-finals where the club suffered defeat to the eventual champions Milan." Not supported by ref.
What isn't? His first-ever goal in the competition? Milan becoming the eventual champions? I took care of both. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He missed his first match of the season against Ukrainian club Dynamo Kyiv in the Champions League in order to be rested for Manchester United's upcoming match against Arsenal. The rest paid off..." Not supported by ref.
  • "Though he made 48 appearances in all competitions, Evra failed to score a goal." No ref.
Done. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another note: I'm still seeing the same problems, and a quick scan of the rest of the article reveals similar problems. I am unwilling to keep checking every reference to make sure it is doing what it says and at this moment I am tempted to fail the article on criteria 2a of the GA criteria. However, I am reluctant to do so as this is an extremely well written article which covers the players career exceptionally well. But the reference problems are very distracting for me as a reviewer. If they could be sorted out, this would be a potential future FA, and I am sure that references can be found. The compromise I am willing to make is to place the article on hold for a week. In that time, I would like all the remaining references checking and sorting out. When I look at the article again, all the referencing should be sorted. If I continue to find issues in this area when I look again, I will be forced to fail it as a I have found so many referencing problems. Please take your time checking, and I will not return to the review for a few days to give you a chance to check everything. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll probably get on this on Monday, which is when I have a day off at work. — JSRant Away 01:31, 2 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2008 - present

  • "Evra got into an altercation": had an altercation.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The defender denied the charges insisting that he hadn't done anything wrong.": Contractions not permitted per MOS; should be had not.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He began the campaign in similar fashion to last season lifting the Community Shield": Evra personally lifted the shield, or the team won the competition?
Fixed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 18 November, the hearing date for the charges was set for 5 December." This is not supported by the ref.
Added source. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "returned to the team domestically for its home match, ironically, against Chelsea": ironically is POV.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as the club cruised to its third consecutive Premier League title": Not encyclopaedic language.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra made a memorable statement." and "Evra famously declared": POV, not reflected in source.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The finals appearance marked Evra's third overall appearance": No ref.
Shouldn't the previous mention of the two CL final appearances that are already sourced above support this statement? — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The campaign initially began in erroneous fashion...": Odd phrasing; I understand that he made an error, but this does not really work.
Agreed. Changed. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "wearing the armband for the first time": ref does not support for the first time.
Found reference stating it was his first time. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra captained Manchester United to a 2–1 win": Ref does not mention Evra at all. However, the next ref does support this. This is careless and unfortunately symptomatic of the referencing throughout. The referencing should be precise and clear.
The source that does not mention Evra is the source for the 2–1 win. The second source afterwards goes into detail on his captaincy of the team in the match, which is why I put it there to support the aforementioned prose of him being the second Frenchman since Cantona....and so on. I didn't know I had to source something that was going to be confirmed by the source of the ensuing prose. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early on during the 2010–11 season, Evra was hampered by constant inquiries about what happened at the 2010 FIFA World Cup from both the French Football Federation and the media.": I don't think this really summarises the source, which says he was summoned to an enquiry. And the ref does not mention the media.
But it does mention Alex Ferguson and the club attempting to protect Evra from the enquiry, which is what I was trying to get at. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Evra's hearing with the federation in Paris, which he attended, was held the day after the team's opening 3–0 league win over Newcastle United." Not covered by ref. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't referenced this because it is fully covered and sourced in the International career section, which is where the information should be. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm afraid I am still finding referencing problems. I just don't find the referencing good enough for a GA. It is incredibly frustrating as I maintain that the article is very well written, but I wonder how much of this is some kind of OR. I am a little concerned that one of the parts I mentioned above originally said that Evra rested for a game, but once a ref was found it changed to he suffered an injury. Also, other comments suggest that not every part was written using sources. Whether this is the case or not, the referencing is not up to standard. I also still maintain it is a potential future FA, but it needs working at to get it to GA to begin with. I am afraid I will not spend any more time reviewing as it is a little unfair for a reviewer to have to check every ref when so many are not supporting the text. There have been so many examples of missing or wrong refs, this is not good enough for GA.

That sucks. Appreciate your assistance, though. — JSRant Away 21:12, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    This is generally OK, but the last section reviewed had a few issues with prose and with word choice. However, not a huge problem and certainly not enough to stop it passing.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Referencing has been a problem throughout. The quality of sources is excellent, however. The lack of refs for some of the text does suggest there may be some OR, but this is not a huge problem in itself.
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
    A few minor issues in the last section reviewed, but not enough to stop the article and easily solved.
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    I'm afraid after a lot of work, I have to fail this article, mainly on the problems with referencing. With a little work, it could be a GA, but there is just too much to do.

I am failing the article, but if you are not happy with the review, you can have it reassessed. Or, once the issues have been addressed, you could renominate at GAN. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:09, 8 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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