Talk:Ringo Starr/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Wording problem

This sentence:

Elsie adopted an overprotective approach to raising her son that bordered on fixation and "Big Ritchie", as Starkey's father became known, lost interest in his family, choosing instead to spend long hours drinking and dancing in pubs, sometimes for several consecutive days.

implies that it's the wife's fault the husband was an irresponsible drunk. Just because someone said that in a book doesn't mean we have to adopt their backward - no, troglodytic - attitude.

Assuming both things are true -- the mother was unusually protective, and the father was a deadbeat -- just switching the order would be an improvement:

"Big Ritchie", as Starkey's father became known, lost interest in his family, choosing instead to spend long hours drinking and dancing in pubs, sometimes for several consecutive days. Elsie adopted an overprotective approach to raising her son that bordered on fixation.

I'll make the change, and if anyone objects, they can change it back. I don't care enough to fight about it. Rosekelleher (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Rosekelleher, the cited sources does indeed state that Elsie's doting on Little Ritchie helped drive Big Ritchie away. He was used to being the center of attention, and after his son was born Elsie ignored him. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:50, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Instrument Issues

Ringo also plays the Guitar, and composed songs using it. He also performed as part of the 50th anniversary Beatles performance in February 2014.

Ringo is not a notable guitarist; i.e. we only list the instruments that a musician is primarily known for, including those that they are accomplished at playing. For the second part of you question see WP:NOTNEWS. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 16:05, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree. Rivertorch (talk) 06:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

influences on Ringo Starr musically

It reads as though Yusef Lateef were a drummer. He was a multi-instrumentalist, but chiefly a reed man and flutist. His first genre was jazz, into which he sometimes incorporated Eastern sounds. His own Wikipedia entry mentions very little about his being a percussionist, though he probably did include, especially in adding exotic instruments, obscure percussion instruments in his music and may have played some himself. Still, it would be less misleading to identify him as "multi-instrumentalist" or simply "musician" (Lateef didn't like genre labels and did play more than saxophones, flute, and oboe) to distinguish who he was from "drummer." ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Comet Zackstein (talk • contribs) 15:06, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Why is the Ringo Starr page protected?

Out of pure curiosity, I just noticed that this page is edit protected -- I'm wondering why? This is an important personality, but not a controversial, polarising, one (such as, say, George W. Bush). Why has it been necessary to protect it? What sort of vandalism has it been receiving?

It's very possible that the page has been vandalized by critics of Ringo, as they do exist. There are some people who attack him viciously. I do agree that it shouldn't be protected, though. There are issues with the instruments he plays I'd like to sort out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.113.133 (talk) 23:05, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Instruments

I know this topic has come up multiple times before, but I really don't see the logic here. Not only does Starr play the guitar (on many of his records), but more importantly he's an accomplished percussive musician, and plays a wide range of percussion instruments that could be at least listed as such ("percussion"), as listed on the personnel for nearly every Beatles record and on the pages of other drummers. Also, on many other artists' pages (Steve Winwood, Burt Bacharach) "piano" and "organ" are listed as separate instruments from the very general "keyboards". Not only did Starr play organ and piano (again, separate instruments) on several Beatles recordings, but also on many of his own solo records. I don't think listing "drums, vocals, keyboards" as the extent of his musical ability is fair or accurate. "Vocals, drums, percussion, piano, organ, keyboards, guitar" would probably be more accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.113.133 (talk) 04:28, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

My overhaul of this page

Apparently the 10 or so edits I made to Starr's page are not welcome? I have not added false information or anything that makes little sense, I've just updated the page for accuracy and to be present in the summer of 2014. Please do not revert my edits, because this page was in need of some help. No reason to delete my edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zabboo (talk • contribs) 19:06, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Big quote from Dave Grohl

What's wrong with using Grohl's quote on Ringo Starr when it was published in Uncut magazine (January 2007, issue 116) and I've used that as the source? Rodericksilly (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

In your initial contribution you followed WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT and said the text was from http://www.fooarchive.com/gpb/daveonringo.htm. There at that particular fansite page, the text is not attributed to Uncut magazine, and no date is supplied. If you go up one level to the index of "Grohl's Poor Brain" then you find that the text is attributed to "Uncut, 2006".
When next you brought the text into the article, you said it was from Uncut magazine, the January 2007 issue, but it was the same text as earlier. It's clear that you merely changed the reference, but that you got the text from fooarchive.com.
So I looked around the interwebs and found this page showing the January 2007 copy of Uncut for sale, and it lists "Dave Grohl on Ringo" in the contents. It's clear that Grohl did say something about Ringo in Uncut.
Meanwhile, back at the fansite fooarchive.com, they copied the Uncut text into their website at least by February 5, 2007, so this helps establish the time frame of Grohl's piece in Uncut. However, the fansite said the piece came out in 2006, and this is obviously wrong, so the big question here is how reliable is the fansite for what was printed in Uncut magazine? A secondary concern is the copyright violation that was made by the fansite in taking text from Uncut.
I don't think we can assume the fansite is reliable, and I don't think we can quote Grohl at any length using their text. Instead, we can say that he thinks Starr is a showman, that he influenced a whole English style of drumming, etc. We can summarize for the reader what Grohl thinks, but copying and pasting fansite text into Wikipedia is against WP:RS.
Finally, I think that such huge quotes are not good for the article. A year ago when it achieved Featured Article status, it had only two big quotes, one from Steve Smith, and one from Phil Collins. I don't think our reader is best served by providing more big quotes. They tend to clog up the reading flow. Binksternet (talk) 01:49, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

(These two user talk page entries were copied from my talk page. I think other editors might find the discussion relevant, and might want to weigh in. Binksternet (talk) 03:32, 1 August 2014 (UTC))

Untitled

"Starr is credited as a co-writer of "What Goes On", "Flying" and "Dig It".[204][nb 14]" Wht about very well known http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus%27s_Garden ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.185.137.151 (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Read the previous sentence. He wrote that, he didn't co-write it. Ian Dalziel (talk) 10:02, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
This is important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dukawalla (talk • contribs) 10:40, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 July 2015

"States" vs "states" Na5m (talk) 08:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Did you really expect someone to scour a 96k article for that? Do some of the work! Bazj (talk) 09:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you really not know how to search for text??? There are two instances of the word "states" and it's VERY obvious which one is being referred to. It took me about 4 seconds to find it... FillsHerTease (talk) 08:45, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

possible additional link

I thought the video, whose link is below, was nice and informative

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTjjAXDZSY


Please consider it for addition to the links at the bottom of the article page.

This following is interesting to http://web2.airmail.net/gshultz/drumpage.html

Thanks for the article. I hope you agree that the above two links would be worthy additions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.17.51.181 (talk) 22:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Duration of coma

I've added a disputed-inline template to the duration of Ringo Starr's childhood coma because in trying to find the date that Ringo Starr contracted peritonitis as a child for the Peritonitis article, I found wildly different claims from reliable sources as to the duration of that coma:

  • three days, as currently stated in the article
  • four days [1]
  • ten days [2]
  • two months [3]
  • ten weeks [4]
  • unspecified number of months [5]

The three/four days could be a matter of rounding, as could the last three entries, but clearly there is a wide divergence in how long the coma lasted. – Robin Hood  (talk) 19:34, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2016

Hi, thank you for adding this piece of information to the page (and your version is much better than the one I submitted). However you left out one if the items from the auction that I was hoping you would include. It was actually one of the more interesting items. Could you add back in?

Darren Julien (owner of the auction): “To me, the most interesting items are the ones that have unique stories to them,” says Julien. “For example, there’s a fantastic old photo of all the Beatles that we pulled out of Ringo’s mother’s scrapbook. Everyone had signed it except for Ringo, so we asked him to sign it. As he’s doing it, he laughed and told us ‘My mom hadn’t wanted to ask me to sign it!’” http://www.latimes.com/home/la-lh-ringo-starr-barbara-bach-auction-20151125-story.html

The current passage reads:

In December 2015, Starr and Bach auctioned some of their personal and professional items to the public via Julien's Auctions in Los Angeles.[263] Highlights of the collection included Starr's first Ludwig Black Oyster Pearl drum kit; instruments gifted to him by Harrison, Lennon and Marc Bolan;[263] and a first-pressing copy of the Beatles' White Album numbered "0000001".[264] The auction raised over $9 million,[265] a portion of which was set aside for the Lotus Foundation, a charity founded by Starr and Bach.[266] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.241.37 (talk) 03:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Here is my suggested wording:

In December 2015, Starr and Bach auctioned some of their personal and professional items to the public via Julien's Auctions in Los Angeles.[263] Highlights of the collection included Starr's first Ludwig Black Oyster Pearl drum kit; instruments gifted to him by Harrison, Lennon and Marc Bolan;[263] a first-pressing copy of the Beatles' White Album numbered "0000001";[264] and a magazine portrait from 1963 containing John, Paul and George's signatures that belonged to Starr's mother, which Starr finally signed.[1] The auction raised over $9 million,[265] a portion of which was set aside for the Lotus Foundation, a charity founded by Starr and Bach.[266]

Thank you (again!)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.123.241.37 (talk) 03:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Please add the following text to the bottom of Ringo's "Personal life" section:

In December of 2015 Ringo became the first Beatle to auction some of his personal and professional items directly to the public via Julien's Auctions: Property from the Collection of Ringo Starr and Barbara Bach.[2] Highlights from this historic auction included several of Starr’s stage and studio used drum kits including Starr's first Ludwig Oyster Black Pearl drum kit played on some of the Beatles earliest songs, instruments gifted to Starr by bandmates and friends, a UK first pressing mono copy of the White Album numbered "No.0000001," and a magazine portrait containing the Beatles signatures that belonged to Starr's mother.[3] Portions of the $9m+ raised from the auction proceeds were set aside to benefit the Lotus Foundation, a charity founded by Starr and Bach.[4]

Not sure if I cited the references correctly. Many thank for adding! 76.123.241.37 (talk) 04:23, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.latimes.com/home/la-lh-ringo-starr-barbara-bach-auction-20151125-story.html
  2. ^ http://www.julienslive.com/view-auctions/info/id/163/
  3. ^ http://www.latimes.com/home/la-lh-ringo-starr-barbara-bach-auction-20151125-story.html
  4. ^ https://www.juliensauctions.com/auctions/2015/ringo-starr-barbara-bach/results.html
  • I'd be happy to add that point. Might take me a day or two to get around to it, though. JG66 (talk) 04:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 Done JG66 (talk) 12:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Edit request on March 30 2016

Within the "1970s"-section of the "Solo career"-section, the same source (Harry 2004, pp. 91–93.) is cited twice for the same claim (the "Having become friends with the English singer Marc Bolan, Starr made his directorial debut with the 1972 T. Rex documentary Born to Boogie"-claim). Isn't that redundant? Shouldn't one of them be removed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.115.81.90 (talk) 09:46, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Done. I have a horrible feeling the repetition was down to me when I was making some changes here quite recently … so I'm glad you pointed it out. Thanks! JG66 (talk) 10:33, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2016

Political Opinons

In an interview with Melody Maker, issued on November 14th, 1964, Ringo Starr claimed to be a voter of the UK Conservative Party. He said to interviewer Ray Coleman that "the main thing I suppose is that Labour is for unions and workers and Conservatives are for people who are making some money. Two years ago I would have voted Labour, now I'd vote Conservative". Redza~enwiki (talk) 10:06, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you REALLY think an opinion expressed over 50 years ago has any validity now? It sounds tongue-in-cheek anyway. WWGB (talk) 10:11, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 Not done - I agree with WWGB - this is stale, and the Beatles were well known for tongue in cheek comments - all the more so as Harold Wilson had been elected orime minister on 16 October 1964 and represented Huyton - part of Liverpool - moreover, in Wikipedia terms, this would be a WP:Primary source - Arjayay (talk) 18:30, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

90s finances

It could be noteworthy that during the 90s, Ringo was so broke due to the fact he hadn't had a chart record since the mid-70s that he couldn't pay the rent for most of 1997. As a result, his landlord's secretary turned up at the recording sessions to his album Vertical Man in December and ended up playing cello on it because Ringo desperately talked her into it. Source: Barry Miles; Keith Badman, The Beatles Diary After the Break-Up: 1970-2001, 2001, Music Sales Group, London, ISBN 9780711983076. More details to the story in our article on the album, including the fact that on the same day as that episode happened, the tiny record label folded that was to release the album. --2003:71:4E6A:B420:FCB8:7534:8BAA:DC52 (talk) 18:29, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2016

The following reference to Yusef Lateef (as being an influence on Ringo Starr's drumming style) implies that Mr. Lateef was a jazz drummer:

Ringo "was also influenced by country artists, including Hank Williams, Buck Owens and Hank Snow, and jazz drummers such as Chico Hamilton and Yusef Lateef, whose compositional style inspired Starr's fluid and energetic drum fills and grooves."

Although he was a multi-instrumentalist, Mr. Lateef was primarily known as a flutist and reed player. He was not known for being a percussionist or drummer. I would suggest deleting Mr. Lateef's name and having the subsequent description pertain solely to Chico Hamilton's drumming and its influence on Ringo Starr. Srobbins41 (talk) 06:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

The source specifically mentions Lateef as does Ringo in several interviews so I wouldn't just delete it. From what I can tell it was more of general musical style as opposed to drumming techniques that was the influence. Maybe change it to "jazz artists" instead of jazz drummers. Piriczki (talk) 17:50, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Good idea. That would tally well with the the three country artists mentioned, none of whom were drummers. RivertorchFIREWATER 18:39, 11 December 2016 (UTC)
Done 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸(talk) 20:33, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2017

"Ringo Starr, is an English musician, singer, songwriter and actor who " Missing comma after songwriter. Comma required in a listing/series. 68.200.16.150 (talk) 11:02, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Done JustBerry (talk) 13:28, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Not convinced - see Oxford comma. UK English usage seems to differ from US English usage. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Not convinced either. It is by no means "required" and there was no reason to make the change. Skimming through the article, I see that in almost all instances we do not use serial commas. (The rare exceptions seem to be under 2000s, following William F. Ludwig, Sr., but perhaps that was because of the "Sr." bit; and right at the end, in the list of Starr's Beatles film roles under Film career.) JG66 (talk) 16:03, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Suggest revert for consistency and WP:TIES. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:46, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
The comma is indeed optional. I tend to be a fan of serial commas, but they're only strictly necessary when their omission would introduce ambiguity, as in: Ringo thought it over, decided that Paul was a ripping bass player and decided to stick with the drums. RivertorchFIREWATER 19:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

"Musician"

I have reverted an edit (summary: "encompassed by musician") that (1) changed the infobox occupation from "drummer" to "musician" and (2) removed from the lead sentence the words "singer" and "songwriter". Drummers are a subset of musicians, of course, but since the subject is noted specifically for playing the drums and not other instruments, specificity seems like a good thing here. As for the lead sentence, while musicianship doesn't necessarily exclude singing, the word "musician" strongly implies instrument-playing activity, not singing ([6], [7], [8]). And a songwriter need not be a musician at all. (Most are, I know.) RivertorchFIREWATER 06:27, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I doubt that even Ringo would describe himself as a "musician". He was a drummer, occasionally playing a tambourine and, on "I'm Looking Through You", an organ. WWGB (talk) 06:34, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
In that case, can we remove singer and songwriter. WP:BLPLEAD states: " avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-notable roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph." LK (talk) 06:49, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Songwriting may be a sundry role in this case; I'm not sure. Singing is definitely not. RivertorchFIREWATER 08:13, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
I would keep singer there. If he were "just mostly" a drummer, he wouldn't have so many albums where he sings on all the songs. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 17:10, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that was my thought, too. Also, he handled lead vocals on 11 Beatles songs, two of them extremely well known, and that ought to count for something. RivertorchFIREWATER 17:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
He has charted singles as a solo artist where he is the lead vocalist as well ("Photograph", for example) so I'd definitely cast him as a drummer, singer, and songwriter. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 20:47, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Agree with the above that "musician" or just "drummer" is insufficient. Jim Keltner, Charlie Watts etc are musicians/drummers, but Starr has released close to 30 albums as a solo artist and lead singer. I'm not sure about the inclusion of "songwriter", though. He has co-written much of his material, but even in rare examples where he's the sole credited composer (e.g. Octopus' Garden, Early 1970, It Don't Come Easy, Back Off Boogaloo), the songs were actually co-writes. By his own admission, he has always come up with ideas for a song, which then need to be fine-tuned by a more melodically minded writer. What do we think about "actor" – should that be included in the opening description? JG66 (talk) 02:54, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but is he equally well known for being a drummer, a singer, a songwriter and an actor. Is there perhaps, not something that he is more well known for, and other roles that he is less known for? MOS:BLPLEAD and various other policies suggest a succinct lead sentence, emphasizing what the person is known for, so that a reader, unfamiliar with the subject, can take away the essentials of the subject.
What would you prefer to read: "John Maynard Keynes was a British economist, whose ideas form the basis for Keynesian economics" or ""John Maynard Keynes was a British economist, civil servant, banker, investor, political activist, a negotiator for the UK government, a director of the Bank of England, and a member of the Bloomsbury Group of intellectuals, whose ideas form the basis for Keynesian economics"? LK (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
For reference, here are the relevant parts from the MOS guidelines for lead sentences, and leads in biographies: LK (talk) 05:03, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

From MOS:BLPLEAD:
"The lead sentence should describe the person as he or she is commonly described in reliable sources. ... avoid overloading the lead paragraph with various sundry roles; instead, emphasize what made the person notable. Incidental and non-notable roles (i.e. activities that are not integral to the person's notability) should usually not be mentioned in the lead paragraph."
And,
"In general, a position, activity, or role should not be included the lead paragraph if: a) the role is not otherwise discussed in the lead, b) the role is not significantly covered in the body of the article, or, c) the role is auxiliary to a main profession of the person (e.g. do not add "textbook writer", if the person is an academic)."
From WP:LEADSENTENCE:
"Try to not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject. Instead use the first sentence to introduce the topic, and then spread the relevant information out over the entire lead."

We're all familiar with this now as you're quoting it at every article where this is seemingly your project at the moment. We do what makes sense for each article and what serves the reader best, and comparing a Beatle to John Maynard Keynes is absurd. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 05:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
I'd prefer not to read about Keynes at all. If I needed to look him up for some reason, I'd like to find what he's generally known for right up front in the article. And that's economics, full stop. In Ringo's case, it's a little more complicated. RivertorchFIREWATER 06:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Instead of facetious remarks ("I'd prefer not to read about Keynes at all") Can we have some policy based arguments why the lead sentence should refer to him as a drummer, a singer, a songwriter and an actor - when one would never see such a phrase in a reliable source. LK (talk) 08:26, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
There are no policy-based arguments. This is a matter of discussing content where the only policy that applies is WP:V. Everything else is based on consensus as to what best works in the article. You have made an argument that it isn't your preference to list those occupations based on your interpretation of MOS, but others don't agree with you. MOS is not a policy. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:12, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Britannica, in its lead, refers to Starr as musician, singer, songwriter, and actor, so there goes the "never" argument. WWGB (talk) 11:47, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
I would say, "Britannica? Reliable?" But that would be facetious. @LK: you may be confusing policies with guidelines. The MOS has guideline status, and it is commonly—and properly—ignored when the guidance it provides doesn't mesh well with the needs of a particular article. Otherwise, we're cramming square pegs into round holes. Or, in this case, rather the reverse, since Ringo isn't exactly a square. Oops, facetiousness...sorry! RivertorchFIREWATER 16:46, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
FYI Policies and guidelines have the same status, they should generally be followed. You may be thinking of essays, which do not have consensus. LK (talk) 05:47, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
No, I wasn't thinking of essays. If policies and guidelines now have "the same status", that must have happened while I wasn't looking. They never did in the past, and the page you linked doesn't say they do. RivertorchFIREWATER 05:54, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Actually, essays do have consensus, in a sense, inasmuch as they're hosted in project space; there's at least tacit consensus that they're worth considering, although one is generally free to ignore any advice they offer. (WP:BRD might be an exception; ignore that one at your peril.) I've reread the page you linked now, and I am baffled at what you think it says. This is getting beyond the scope of this talk page, however, and WP:TPG is one guideline I see no reason to ignore. RivertorchFIREWATER 06:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

why do i have to read so far to find out when he became a beatle?

? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zigui and the Spiders (talk • contribs) 15:47, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Far? It's the second sentence of the third paragraph. I don't even have to scroll. RivertorchFIREWATER 17:05, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

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Drum kit

Resolved
 – through subsequent edits. RivertorchFIREWATER 16:51, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

@Kchishol1970: I don't understand this edit. First, where did he insist the logo be prominently placed? Second, the word "professionally" leading off the sentence doesn't make sense to me. What is it modifying? RivertorchFIREWATER 03:38, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

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Infobox name

His correct title is "Sir Richard Starkey",[9] not "Sir Ringo Starr". If editors want the title of the infobox to be "Ringo Starr" then "Sir" will have to be removed. WWGB (talk) 04:39, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Quite a conflict there with WP:COMMONNAME? Google search currently gives "about 896,000 results" for "Sir Ringo Starr" e.g. this headline and I can see that total only getting bigger. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:00, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't see it your way. Name = common name = Ringo Starr. Honorific title = Sir. To deduce "Sir Ringo Starr" is wrong. Do we have birth_name, or other_names? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Did this guy ever legally change his name? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:04, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
<Edit conflict> But seeing as it is a title bequeathed by a monarch or dignitary, aren't we obliged to adhere to the official citation? i.e., regardless of COMMONNAME, even if the article title remains Ringo Starr. Also – and perhaps time will create a solution, anyway (because the official title will be explicitly announced: "Sir Ringo Starr" or "Sir Richard Starkey") – does he currently hold the new title, or is it only applicable after the ceremony/investiture? JG66 (talk) 14:09, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
I think it requires investiture. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:10, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Well, yes, that's what I'm thinking. So, bearing in mind that we don't even have a source to support his inclusion in the Honours List, right now, I wonder if it might be best to just remove the prefix in the infobox and wait until it becomes official. And perhaps we'll have our answer then. JG66 (talk) 14:14, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Appreciate the comparison with Redge Dwight … JG66 (talk) 14:18, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
No source? Most folks accept The Gazette as pretty reliable. And it is all over BBC News, of course. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:20, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Ah sorry. I'd seen the announcement all over the shop, and the mention in the lead here, but not the addition (with source) under Awards and honours. Which makes the need for a source in the lead unnecessary, of course. JG66 (talk) 14:31, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Dwight legally changed his name [10], Starkey did not. WWGB (talk) 14:38, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Fair enough, but again, is it not premature of us to be referring to Starr/Starkey as "Sir …"? JG66 (talk) 14:42, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
"The recipient of the honour can use their new title or letters as soon as they are notified that they have been awarded it, the investiture ceremony is only the formal part when they receive the insignia." [11] WWGB (talk) 14:44, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
OK, thanks. JG66 (talk) 14:56, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, WWGB. It might be worth adding that detail to Elton John> Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 31 December 2017 (UTC) p.s. I see that The Gazette says "THE QUEEN has been graciously pleased to signify her intention of conferring the honour of Knighthood upon the undermentioned". I'm in no position to know for sure that Tingo has been informed. But I suspect he has.
  • I don't see anything wrong with the |honorific_prefis=Sir+|name=Ringo Starr arrangement. It wasn't a problem when the infobox said "Ringo Starr, MBE"...--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:15, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
  • Another point: the same issue can be attributed toward "Sir Paul McCartney" - it would rather be "Sir James Paul McCartney".--Ilovetopaint (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2017 (UTC)

Drummer or musician

Another editor has replaced "drummer" in the lead with "musician". I would argue that Starr is primarily known as a drummer, and that should be the primary descriptor. Thoughts? WWGB (talk) 06:03, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

How specific do we want it? Of course he's a drummer, but drummers are a subset of musicians—just as much so as guitarists, pianists, sax players, or anyone else. I was going to advocate for consistency, but other similar articles are all different: John was a musician, it seems, while Paul is a multi-instrumentalist and George was a guitarist. I'll go out on a limb and say that, while "musician" covers all the bases and is fine for the lead sentence, each of these four articles should specify somewhere in the first couple of paragraphs what role its subject had in the Beatles because therein lies their greatest notability. (Or did I mean The Beatles? I forget how that RfA turned out. ) RivertorchFIREWATER 21:54, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Carl Palmer is a "musician" with Instrument = "drums"; Ginger Baker is a "musician" with Instrument = "drums"; Roger Taylor is a "musician" with Instrument = "drums"; Graeme Edge is a "musician" with Instrument = "drums"; Keith Moon is a "musician" (although he doesn't have any drums at the moment} etc., etc. Just sayin'. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Palmer, Baker and Moon are all described in their lead as a "drummer". So is Kenny Aronoff, Charlie Watts, Max Weinberg etc. So why not Ringo? WWGB (talk) 00:14, 26 January 2018 (UTC)
How about the John Bonham compromise? RivertorchFIREWATER 04:10, 26 January 2018 (UTC)

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MS Paint art

can we get Mr. Starr's MS Paint art from 2005-2017 as a part of his page? it even featured on his website. It was also a key moment in the YouTube channel GameGrumps history Ridley? 74 (talk) 17:39, 23 March 2018 (UTC)Ridley? 74

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2018

Please change Ringo Starr MBE to KBE - he was knighted in the Queens New Years Honours and is no longer a Member of The Order of the British Empire he is now a Knight of the Order. Crrrispy (talk) 19:33, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 19:34, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

TIME Magazine mentioned on March 20, 2018, that Ringo Starr "was appointed a Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire in a ceremony at London’s Buckingham Palace." CryMeAnOcean (talk) 03:54, 13 July 2018 (UTC) [1]

Keyboards

I am fully in support of infoboxes only listing primary instruments - I think keyboards fit the criteria in Ringo's case. He played keys on three Beatles songs (piano on Don't Pass Me By, organ vamp on I'm Looking Through You, final chord on A Day in the Life, also seen playing with Paul in Let it Be footage). In addition, Ringo has played keys on a number of his solo albums, including every record for the past 20 years. Ringo plays piano for Don't Pass Me By live, and has proven a basic but competent chordal keyboardist. I think "keyboards" should be added to the instruments section of his infobox. Zabboo talk 22:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

“Texans” or “Hurricanes”…?

The article says:“In November 1959, Starkey joined Al Caldwell's Texans, a skiffle group who were looking for someone with a proper drum kit so that the group could transition from one of Liverpool's best-known skiffle acts to a full-fledged rock and roll band.[39][nb 1] They had begun playing local clubs as the Raging Texans, then Jet Storm and the Raging Texans before settling on Rory Storm and the Hurricanes soon before recruiting Starkey”. If this latter sentence is true, then Starr joined the Hurricanes, not the Texans, so the first sentence is wrong; if the former sentence is true, then Starr joined the Texans, and the group changed its name after that, and the second sentence is false. Any ideas which is the case? Jock123 (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Henry?

is his full name Richard Henry Starkey? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.74.236.68 (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Infobox "person"

Have been advised to seek consensus before changing Starr's infobox to that of a regular person, similar to Beatles bandmates John Lennon and Paul McCartney. Pretty small and cosmetic change, but does make some personal infomation more immediately available and unifies him with his bandmates. Would like to do the same for George Harrison. Zabboo talk 16:50, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea. If anything, I'd change Lennon and McCartney to the musician infobox. That's what they're known for. --Laser brain (talk) 22:49, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
I'd normally agree, but the "person" infobox is already used for many musicians that have attained "legendary" status - i.e. Elton John, Mick Jagger, Michael Jackson, John Lennon, Paul McCartney, etc. I think the other two Beatles fit that bill as well. Zabboo talk 15:12, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
WP:OTHERCONTENT - FlightTime (open channel) 15:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I think the clear "person" infobox looks way better than the yellow "musical artist" 'box, and I'd certainly prefer to see the page (any page) look as attractive as possible. But that's irrelevant – what should be used, does anyone know?
If there is some allowance for so-called "legendary" status – I guess, for individuals whose renown is way beyond that of "just" a notable professional musician – then it would definitely apply to a former Beatle. We currently use Infobox person at Bob Dylan, Bruce Springsteen, Madonna (entertainer), Prince (musician) and David Bowie also, and some of those (like Jackson, Lennon, McCartney et al.) are FA or GA. So, I'm wondering where this started – a preference shared at FAC perhaps? Another FA, Philip Seymour Hoffman, similarly uses Infobox person rather than Infobox actor. JG66 (talk) 15:57, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
No idea where it started, but at this point, there appears to be a standard for using a "clear" infobox for celebrities of exceptional renown. Zabboo talk 22:41, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
I agree that the musician infobox isn't too attractive. I don't like the look of them in general, really. I think we should use common sense and use the one that promotes the information we consider most important. What's important about a musician? When they were born and died, and who they married? Or details about their musical career? --Laser brain (talk) 03:37, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
Well, that depends. Celebrities as famous as the Beatles are primarily known for their music, but their personal lives are also a huge part of their fame. Celebrity wouldn't be particularly interesting to many without understanding the private lives of their favorite musicians/actors/etc. For people as renowned and well-known as the Beatles, I'd say their personal information is also important. Zabboo talk 15:45, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Zabboo, I think this change is somewhat optimistic. Anyone would be hard pressed to conclude that a "decent consensus" has been achieved here(!). I said I personally preferred the look of Infobox person, but no more than that – I was mindful of what the other editors had said. Laser_brain, FlightTime, how are you on this?

For myself, no, I'm not overly disappointed that the yellow infobox has gone. But I'd prefer to see a change made that was binding, since, as with all the examples listed above, surely, it could easily be undone by someone identifying Infobox music artist as the correct and obvious choice. So, it would make more sense to establish whether Infobox person is genuinely the one to use when a musical artist's notability is way beyond that of, say, a jobbing musician. And that's why I was asking whether it's become a preference at FAC, perhaps with a view to an article's appearance on the Main Page. JG66 (talk) 06:06, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that the change was made without consensus, but I have no wish to get into a conflict about it. In my time spent at FAC, I've seen a handful of conflicts about infoboxes but they are more likely to be about whether to have one at all. I recall anyone starting an argument about which one was used, as such things are usually settled long before the article comes to FAC. --Laser brain (talk) 11:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
Is it not possible to have the main infobox musical artist and embed infobox person to utilize the parameters wanted from there ? These "persons" are notable first of all for being musical artist. Sorry if this is stupid, I'm not that familiar with interweaving infoboxes. - FlightTime (open channel) 13:16, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
I apologize for making the edit without sufficient consensus, but the Issue had been left untouched for two weeks and I felt we had achieved a semblance of understanding/consensus on the topic and why it would be a good change. Can we try to find a solution/compromise rather than leaving it so open-ended? Zabboo talk 23:08, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

No Irish ancestry

It is notable that Starr was the only member of The Beatles who did not have any Irish ancestry. Even George Harrison had an Irish aunt. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 10:34, 22 January 2019 (UTC))

Why is that in any way notable? Many people from Liverpool have Irish ancestry. Many do not. Personally I think it's about as notable as one member of the Beatles having different eye colour to the other three. The Fab Four were hardly known for their diddly-i? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Lennon and McCartney were both very vocal about The Troubles so I think it should be mentioned. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 11:08, 22 January 2019 (UTC))
I'm really not sure any of that needs to be mentioned here. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:32, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
The question that matters is: do the reliable sources think its notable? I'm pretty sure the reliable sources agree that Ringo and the Beatles are "British" and I can't say that I've ever read a book about the Beatles that mentioned who had Irish ancestry and who didn't (not that I've read them all of course), nor do I remember reading about them being known for talking about the Troubles. I'm sure they were vocal about it, but they were vocal about everything. But the Beatles' aren't like... Bono/U2 or The Cranberries. Anyway, this is a WP:BLP, so we really can't include unsourced information, especially about heritage/ancestry. Levivich? ! 15:28, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
It isn't noteworthy at all. rowley (talk) 15:36, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
McCartney and Lennon both recorded songs in support of the Provisional IRA, so the fact that Starr was the only member of the group not to have any Irish ancestry is definitely notable. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 17:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC))
So which songs were they? And what about Harrison? But this is complete WP:OR, unless you can furnish us with a WP:RS which supports your curious view. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
"The Luck of the Irish" and "Give Ireland Back to the Irish". I know Harrison was very left-wing but I don't know if he commented on The Troubles. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 19:48, 22 January 2019 (UTC))
Ok thanks. So "The Luck of the Irish" and "Give Ireland Back to the Irish". But their existence doesn't really support the claim you wish to make here, does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
And to say either of those songs were "in support of the Provisional IRA" is ridiculous. In fact our article on McCartney's song says "McCartney agreed to omit the song from the Wingspan box set, recognising that its inclusion might be viewed as a gesture of support for the IRA's use of violence. Richerman (talk) 12:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Sure, but that wasn't his view in the 1970s. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2019 (UTC))
Time to stop here, I think. Nothing to do with Ringo. And the fact it has nothing to do with Ringo is not notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:15, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

Lede

This information at the start of the second paragraph:

Starr was afflicted by life-threatening illnesses during childhood, and he fell behind in school as a result of prolonged hospitalisations. He briefly held a position with British Rail before securing an apprenticeship at a Liverpool equipment manufacturer. Soon afterwards, he became interested in the UK skiffle craze and developed a fervent admiration for the genre.

Is it really lede worthy? Shouldn't the lede be confined for those things which make him notable? This specific early bio info, which is also covered in the "1940-1956 Early Life" section, seems to give it proportionally more importance than it really deserves.

Just my 2 cents. ShelbyMarion (talk) 23:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Leade? Do you mean lede? rowley (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
Yes. Of course. My bad. Thanks. I fixed the spelling. ShelbyMarion (talk) 18:18, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Not a new section, but to be added, either under: ==External links== , OR at the end of the section: ===Drums===

2607:FEA8:E340:40E:D1EB:EBA6:7587:725C (talk) 18:54, 24 February 2019 (UTC) jclequy

Richy or Ritchie?

In Mark Lewisohn's Tune-in biography, he points out that Ringo spells his name "Richy" Apepper (talk) 17:03, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly not Ritchie. But in Howard Sounes' McCartney biography, the author comments on Starr's preference for the name over Ringo, and refers to him throughout as "Richie". JG66 (talk) 17:07, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Surely Lewisohn source is the better source here? He's the most eminent Beatles historian and it comes from Starr himself. - Humbledaisy

Ringo Starr and drummer Eddie Rubin

Ringo Starr knew and was friends with well-known drummer turned photographer Eddie Rubin. Should this be included in Ringo's article or Eddie's article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.123.228 (talk) 10:09, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Neither. I'm sure they both had many friends and Starr would certainly had known dozens of famous people, but unless their friendship produced a collaboration of some sort it's not notable. Richerman (talk) 11:16, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. - FlightTime (open channel) 11:30, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Me too. And in the absence of any musical collaboration, it's not as if their friendship is relevant to their respective drumming styles and therefore could be discussed in that or any other light, either (unless reliable sources state otherwise, of course). If Starr has stated publicly that Rubin was one of his favourite drummers, the way he has with Jim Keltner, and/or influenced his own playing, then that point might well be notable at the Eddie Rubin article. But even if it was the other way around (Rubin stating his admiration of Starr's playing), I still don't see there would be a place for him in this article. JG66 (talk) 11:44, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
I had my picture taken with Ringo Starr. This proves my friendship. Can I be included in the article too? 2601:983:827F:3080:C811:D351:3D38:684A (talk) 12:19, 18 December 2019 (UTC)
Well a picture taken with Ringo is a different story, you weren't a famous drummer in the music industry who spent time with him. Eddie Rubin often hung out with Ringo after gigs and would often challenge Ringo to drum solo battles claiming that Ringo is just an average drummer. Ringo and Eddie Rubin had similar drumming styles and were soft drum head strikers (unlike many other rock drummers who smash the hell out of their drum sets). I read this in a book called Rock Drummer Corner. But yea, I guess this isn't related to official albums/work, so I can understand if it shouldn't be in their articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.97.164.144 (talk) 03:39, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Richerman showed self restraint in claiming that Ringo knows dozens of famous people, while I am confident that he knows thousands of famous people including hundreds of prominent drummers. If we listed every one of them, this biography would be unreadable and of little value. This discussion is part of an intensive effort to promote Eddie Rubin on Wikipedia, which will not be successful. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:07, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
That's absolutely spot on, and it was what I was referring to in my revert. The situation regarding Ringo's "friends" is similar to what I've found working on articles about George Harrison – their pool of friends is potentially endless. There are significant friendships that Harrison had with musicians, philosophers, religious leaders, actors, directors, racing drivers, horticulturalists, sculptors, etc, that don't get a look in at all at his article, and it's the same here at Ringo Starr. JG66 (talk) 05:23, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
Cullen328, it's one thing to restrict what someone writes in an article, but can't we write about whoever we want and say whatever we want about them on talk pages like this? Just because he/she talking about Ringo or Eddie Rubin on the talk page, it doesn't mean he/she is trying to promote them. Even if he/she were, people have freedom of speech on talk pages, they can discuss anything right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lewiswizz (talk • contribs) 08:38, 22 December 2019 (UTC)
It appears that we didn't block enough accounts and ip addresses. 2601:983:827F:3080:C811:D351:3D38:684A (talk) 10:48, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction

This article states that Ringo was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame "for his solo career in 2015" and that he "became the last Beatle to be inducted for a solo career". Ringo received the "Award for Musical Excellence", which doesn't seem to be for his solo career. The Rock Hall states "Starr’s modest, affable persona belies a lifetime of musical achievement that predates, postdates, and, of course, includes his eight years as drummer with the most popular and influential group in the history of music." Should the wording in this article be tweaked to state that his induction was different than those of John, Paul, and George? GoingBatty (talk) 17:51, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 February 2020

Please correct spelling mistake: "funriture" => "furniture" 64.231.148.201 (talk) 03:54, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

 Done. 04:10, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 March 2020

age 80 165.29.109.123 (talk) 16:58, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: According to the birthdate listed in the article, he turns 80 in July. If this is incorrect, please provide reliable sources to support changing this information. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 17:32, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Additional Films

The film section needs to add "Sextette" and "Born to Boogie." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.31.92.184 (talk • contribs) 04:58, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Born to Boogie is mentioned and linked in the text. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

eleven plus

There were no eligibility requirements for the eleven plus. Either he failed this exam, or parents or teachers decided he should not take it. 2A01:CB08:8BE:AA00:460:5A36:13FD:F641 (talk) 20:17, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

A preview of the current book source, Clayson (2005), p. 23, is not currently available inline. The Liverpool Echo here says he failed. At Quora here someone called "Hans Hyttel, Associate Professor" also says "Ringo Starr did not pass the 11-plus test", but he doesn't give any source. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
I've got the Clayson book, a 2003 Sanctuary edition but the pagination seems to be the same. The ineligibility concerns young Starkey's extended, health-related absences from school and the fact that he never effectively caught up: At St Silas' and, next, Dingle Vale Secondary Modern, he was as well known for this quirk [idiosyncratic language/logic] as bullies and cricket captains were in their spheres. Elsie had paid Marie Maguire to help him catch up with his reading with twice-weekly exercises from a primer, but, despite her conscientious efforts, Ritchie – by no means bookish and forever an unorthodox speller – had still been ineligible to even sit the Eleven Plus examination to determine whether he'd move up to a grammar school or instead go to a secondary modern, where the "failures" went.
I don't know if that helps. Clayson's writing often drips sarcasm at every turn, and one does have to navigate around his POV to arrive at basic facts; but he's English and of an age that would suggest he'd be quite knowledgeable about the postwar educational system in Britain. (He's not Bob Spitz or Kenneth Womack, in other words.) JG66 (talk) 05:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Date Ringo met first wife?

This article says they met in Feb 1965. The article on Maureen Starkey Tigrett says he proposed marriage on 20 Jan 1965. Can some expert resolve which is correct? -- econterms (talk) 02:53, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh -- figured it out. They met in 1962. I rephrased to clarify the year. They married in Feb 1965. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Econterms (talk • contribs) 02:59, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Ringoisms

Tears for Fears used some too, which came from a visit of Ringo's during the writing of Raoul and the Kings of Spain. They appear on "Don't Drink the Water". Jules TH 16 (talk) 21:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2021

In personal life section, the line "He later admitted to being "a drunk, a wife-beater and an absent father".[279]" should be moved. This line is currently in the section about his marriage to first wife Maureen, when the source mentions his drinking & violence as part of his marriage to second wife Barbara Bach. Suggest this line would make more sense moved to the section about his marriage to Barbara Bach. 2A02:C7F:2259:2800:3093:A2E8:2825:55F5 (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The quote comes from the first line of the source and doesn't look like it's tied to Bach. In fact "absent father" must be talking about his kids with Maureen, since he didn't have any kids with Barbara. By the way, the quote needs to go away, because it looks like we're quoting Ringo but we're not. GA-RT-22 (talk) 22:24, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
 Already done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Masterclass addition under musicianship

Ringo Starr recently joined the Masterclass lineup of tutors teachings "Drumming and Creative Collaboration". I think it should be added under the section Musicianship [2]Persianprince99 (talk) 23:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://time.com/5207582/ringo-starr-knighthood/
  2. ^ https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/ringo-starr-masterclass-course-1235001598/
@Persianprince99: plus Added! GoingBatty (talk) 02:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

‘Ringo is not even…

… the best drummer in The Beatles’ is a typical Lennon wisecrack. The Beatle years are littered with Lennon sarcasms. His remark has two bases:

1. That the three other Beatles could all do a bit of drumming, McCartney being the most accomplished: he played drums on ‘The Ballad of John Yoko’. Of this fact, Ringo once remarked, ‘I was lucky to be in a band with three other drummers who could play in only one style.’

2. ‘Is Ringo the best drummer in the world?’ was a stupid question. Lennon always gave smart-alec answers to stupid questions. The Beatle years are rich in them. 124.150.79.224 (talk) 06:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

But also don't forget Pete Best, Norman Chapman, Tommy Moore and Jimmie Nicol? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
Jasper Carrott said it, not Lennon. --92.22.212.168 (talk) 08:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
And before Carrott, Radio Active: [12]. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:18, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
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