Talk:Saib Tabrizi

Please translate

Currently about half of the article is in a non-Latin script, thus definitely not in English. Nothing necessarily wrong with extracts in other languages, but unless they are translated they are not going to be meaningful to most readers of English-language Wikipedia. So, whoever added those bits, please supply translations or just remove the sections in question. 78.71.246.102 (talk) 12:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Comment

britannica said : one of the greatest masters of a form of classical Arabic and Persian lyric poetry .

please see this link [2] this page is not about turkish poetry of saib —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.182.37.43 (talk) 19:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Mirzā Muḥammad ali Sāib → Saib Tabrizi per WP:COMMONNAME

• "Talk:Mirzā Muḥammad ali Sāib" - Llc 0
• "Saib Tabrizi" -Llc 12
• "Saeb Tabrizi" -Llc 3 -

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

-- Takabeg (talk) 09:48, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Claims with no sources.

Urməvi has recently begun to claim him as an Azerbaijani with no sources, if you take a look on the article you can see that all sources state that he was Persian. And the source which states that he wrote in his native Azeri[3], states that he was a Persian if you take a look here[4] --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:48, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, he was a Persian, what means that he was from Persia, not that he was ethnic Persian. In iranica there are nothing about "Persian people". If it were so his native language would be Persian, not Azeri. Let's think a little bit logically. --Interfase (talk) 16:02, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Err.. what? the source clearly says that his was Persian, not Azeri. If he wasn't Persian, then they wouldn't call him that, now that's logically. You edit on Nizami Ganjavi has already been reverted by others, and so will this probably too. --HistoryofIran (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Did I say he wasn't Persian? No. Read the article again. It's written there that he is Persian poet. But in this case "Persian poet" means "poet from Persia", not that "he is an ethnic Persian". Sources doesn't say that he was an ethnic Persian. So stop wasting my time and yours as well. --Interfase (talk) 06:52, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Sigh.. how can i discuss this with someone who can't even understand a simple sentence? --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:41, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry about me. I understand everything very well. You cannot understand that the term "Perisan" not always means "ethnic Persian". --Interfase (talk) 11:54, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

What do you think?

Can someone please come and help us with this little problem? it seems that Interfase don't understand the meaning of Persian poet, so i would be glad if someone told him. No sources state this person was Azeri, all the sources state that he was Persian. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I think user HistoryofIran doesn't understand the meaning of Persian poet. He thinks that Persian poet means poet, who is an "ethnic Persian". But there no sources saying that. --Interfase (talk) 10:58, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Sigh.. that makes no sense, oh well, let's see what the people decide. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:45, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

No, that makes sense, because you want to give the link to the Persian people article, which is about ethnic Persians. --Interfase (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the references only mention that he is Persian, i.e. from Persia. Since Persia in this context refers to Iran, from the listed references we can state that he is Iranian. Consequently, I suggest we link him to Iranian poets. Borek 9 (talk) 21:42, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it's okay to use the Persian people link. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 04:05, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

@Kouhi: per talkpage. Persian is country not ethinity. IRANICA: Saib was known to have written 17 ghazals and molammaʿs in his native Azeri--Samək^Talk 20:26, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: In your opinion He said Azeri poetry according to the source Iranica?-Samək^Talk 20:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Both Britanica and Iranica support his Persian ethnicity. "celebrated Persian poet of the later Safavid period" and "Ṣāʾib, in full Mīrzā Muḥammad ʿalī Ṣāʾib, also called Ṣāʾib Of Tabriz, or Ṣāʾib Of Eṣfahān (born 1601/02, Tabrīz, Iran—died c. 1677), Persian poet,..." if you read. It is clear enough. The country is Persia, not Persian, Persian is the name of an ethnic group, that "Turkish dialect of his native Tabriz" means that Tabriz was his "native" city and the dialectic of Tabriz was Turkish, it does not mean that he was an Azeri, and "Persia poet" is grammatically incorrect, so I have to revert your edit as the sources support my claim, please don't engage yourself in an edit-war, or I would report you to an administrator. -- Kouhi (talk) 20:54, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: I'm waiting for answer!!

@Kouhi: Here is not Persian Wikipedia. Instead of threatening words try to calmly discuss. If the order is Persia, placed in a sentence that would be (Persia+n Poet). Never can write Persia poet because it does not mean. The Britannica is not a reliable source for this article. See[5]

According Iranica, according to opinion Pan-Farsism/Iranism is the most reliable source in history of Iran. according to the same source Saeb Tabrizi has poems native Azerbaijani language.--Samək^Talk 21:08, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Samak, Kouhi has already answered you (and he is not threatening you), and as I said, this has already been discussed before. You are bringing an old issue back by saying the exact same thing as that guy did back then. And no, this has nothing to do with any kind of nationalism, but alright. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:14, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Kouhi: Saib wrote poetry in native Azeri, so he is Azeri. You have doubt? What is the reason for the removal of the native language of the article?--Samək^Talk 21:27, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Doug Weller:, plz consider the status of the article.--Samək^Talk 21:16, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You just broke the three-revert rule and keep making disruptive edits without reaching a concensus and then you call an admin? You are basically shooting yourself in the foot. By the way, me and Kouhi still await a reply :). --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

plz see your Block log:) Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Saib_Tabrizi.--Samək^Talk 21:22, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Since you like to stalk me you should see my contributions as well, and maybe have some English lessons :). --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

@Samak:, You are making a false claim that is not supported by the reference you are providing. Just for clarification (in the case that my previous comment was not clear enough), I am quoting that part from Iranica:

"Qahramān’s edition of the divān contains over 7,000 ḡazals (including some twenty poems in the Turkish dialect of his native Tabriz), as well as a couple of hundred isolated verses from poems no longer extant in their entirety."

I don't see "his native language was Azerbaijani and he was an Azeri". As I already said, It is saying that "he was native of Tabriz and the dialectic of Tabriz was Turkish". The word "native" refers to Tabriz, not the language, and the word "Azeri" is not mentioned anywhere in the article. And yes, Britanica is reliable, but I am not going to tell you which source is reliable and which not. So, please stop insisting on a false claim. -- Kouhi (talk) 21:48, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Discrepancy between sources

The Persian origin of Saib Tabrizi is contested by the following reliable sources:

• Turcologica Upsaliensia: An Illustrated Collection of Essays. BRILL. 2020. p. 169. ISBN 978-90-04-43585-8. The more famous Azeri poets in Isfahan include Qavsi Tebrizi, Muhsin Te'sir, Mesihi, Sa'ib Tabrizi, and Melik Beg.
• "SÂİB-i TEBRÎZÎ". İslâm Ansiklopedisi. Vol. 35. 2008. Daha çok Farsça şiirler söyleyen Âzerî şairi [Azeri poet who sang mostly Persian poems]
• Hough, Carole (2016). The Oxford Handbook of Names and Naming. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-163042-2. [...] and Azerbaijani 'Saib Tabrizi' ('from Tabriz'), also called 'Saib Isfahani' as he died in Isfahan.

Given that Encyclopedia Iranica also states that the poet's native language was Turkish [Azerbaijani], it is safe to assume that there is no consensus among academics regarding Tabrizi's origins. There are currently only three sources in the article that identify him as Persian, one of which is not RS, and three sources here that identify him as Azeri. Therefore, I propose removing "Persian" from the lead and inserting the following sentence at the beginning of the "Early life" section:

Saib Tabrizi was either of Persian or Azerbaijani ancestry, with Azerbaijani as his native tongue.

— Golden ^{call me maybe?} 14:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

How about this as an introduction to the lede? "Saib Tabrizi was an [Safavid Iran|Iranian]] poet, regarded as one of the greatest masters of a form of classical Persian lyric poetry characterized by rhymed couplets, known as the ghazal. He also established the "Indian style" (sabk-i Hind) in the literature of his native language, Azerbaijani Turkic, in which he is known to have written 17 ghazals and molammaʿs." --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:56, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't that violate MOS:NATIONALITY, given that his nationality isn't relevant to the subject's notability? Writing the century in which he composed poems might be a better solution:

Saib Tabrizi was a 17th century poet, who is regarded as one of the greatest masters of a form of classical Persian lyric poetry characterized by rhymed couplets, known as the ghazal. Saib also established the "Indian style" (sabk-i Hind) in the literature of his native language, Azerbaijani Turkic, in which he is known to have written 17 ghazals and molammaʿs."

— Golden ^{call me maybe?} 23:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

"Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead sentence unless relevant to the subject's notability." This is talking about if someone was originally from somewhere else. In the "Nationality examples" section just below, it shows how nationality should be mentioned, also saying that "Finally, in controversial or unclear cases, nationality is sometimes omitted." Saib Tabrizi's Iranian nationality is none of those. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:30, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, in that case, I'll modify the introduction to your suggested version and add the first suggested sentence to the "Early life" section. — Golden ^{call me maybe?} 07:59, 22 January 2023 (UTC)