Talk:Serbo-Croatian/Archive 9

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Ignore Kiril's nonsense above and read this

Kiril's proposal is very, very simple despite the inflated bombast. Believe it or not, the following is the sum total of what he's requesting.

Instead of listing all the dialects of Serbo-Croatian here in the infobox, replace the list with a simple link to Dialects of Serbo-Croatian, where all the details are listed and discussed.

This is the same solution found at Macedonian language and Bulgarian language and allows for more detailed information to be presented on the complexities. --Taivo (talk) 01:00, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with adding a link to the dialect article, though I'm oppose removing the individual links, since the three dialects are basic to the concept of SC. (As opposed to Macedonian–Bulgarian, where only Macedonian and Bulgarian themselves are of much interest to most people.) — kwami (talk) 01:24, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Please carefully read all of my points presented above. The classification of Serbo-Croatian dialects is a pretty complex matter since there are some outlying varieties (most often classified as dialects but sometimes as languages) such as Burgenland Croatian and Molise Slavic who are both based on the Chakavian dialect with influences from Kajkavian and the local languages. In addition, if we finally agree on the classification of Torlakian as part of Serbo-Croatian in any kind, then we have to consider that it's generally classified as an Old-Shtokavian dialect (thereby part of Shtokavian) and referred to as "Prizren-Timok dialect". Hence, the classification of the Torlakian dialect in this context as part of Shtokavian could be regarded the same as the aforementioned Burgenland Croatian and Molise Slavic as part of Chakavian. It's a very complex, highly controversial and tough issue, although it doesn't seem to look as such at first glance.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:40, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
P.S. The only three basic dialects which never overlap one to another are Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kajkavian. Expanding the section with even a single of the other dialects will make it incomplete in the sense that other dialects with the same status are not listed there. A good solution might be to insert a link to Dialects of Serbo-Croatian and then put links to the three dialects (Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kajkavian) in parentheses. What do you think on it?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I implemented the "all links approach" [1], leaving Torlakian listed for the time being. In such setup, I don't feel strongly about its inclusion, because its status is not quite "symmetrical" with the other three, as Kiril said. So, if there's a vote, count me as "very mild exclude".
On the technical note, I would prefer that "dialects" and "dia1..." parameters are not mutually exclusive in {{Infobox language}}, so that we don't have the ugly tweak with linebreaks. Not sure why it was implemented this way: surely, there are situations (like this) where one would like to link both the dialects article and list the most important ones. It should be tweaked around this line:
| data11 = {{#if:{{{dialects|}}}|{{{dialects}}}
The first #if should be closed in the same line, but I'd prefer that Kwami does the execution, as he's more familiar with it. No such user (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
How's that? (for the line breaks, I mean)
I didn't think there'd be any need, but if you still want both, go ahead. The coding's simple enough familiarity shouldn't be a problem. — kwami (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
The situation here should be considered very close to clear and having the current format in the box has the following implications: (1) if we include Torlakian (classified by some as an Old-Shtokavian dialect and thereby as Shtokavian) as one of those dialects, then we have to balance it by including Burgenland Croatian and Slavomolisano (classified as dialects of Chakavian and (2) if we let only the three dialects (Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kajkavian), the problem will be immediately solved with no more pain. The latter one is a much better solution in my opinion because it reveals only undisputed facts on the main dialects of the language and invites the interested readers to check for details in the article on the dialects. Conversely, the former one increases the number of heterogeneity by listing varieties that are commonly considered as subdialects of the main three but sometimes anything else. Currently we are on the crossroads to choose between these two with a slight inclination on the first implication since we now have the three main dialects and a variety or phylum of varieties which is considered a subdialect of one of those three given the viewpoint that it's part of Serbo-Croatian.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:09, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Hey, a cogent argument! — kwami (talk) 00:55, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
But its membership of Old-Shtokavian has also been disputed, because of the substantial differences. --JorisvS (talk) 09:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
That was my initial point on this that classifying Torlakian as part of Serbo-Croatian is not widely accepted. But if we agree with those claiming it's a Serbo-Croatian dialect, then we also have to agree that they use to classify it as an Old-Shtokavian dialect.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:53, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
No, I'm saying accepting it as Old-Shtokavian is not universal when it is considered part of Serbo-Croatian. --JorisvS (talk) 15:23, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
We're now deepening the problem as to how a group of dialects which is not widely accepted as part of a language is not widely accepted to be part of a dialect of that particular language. The easiest way to overcome this problem is to simply exclude something which is not widely accepted. I've already mentioned that Burgenland Croatian and Slavomolisano are two subdialects of Chakavian, but their classification as such is disputed and many even consider them to be separate languages. Shall we consider their inclusion rather than simply exclude Torlakian and clean the box from disputed facts? My answer on this is no. The readers who are interested more thoroughly about the dialects can just visit the article on Dialects of Serbo-Croatian and read much more about all existing views on it.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:36, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
Excluding it because that way 'we do not have problem' is OR. Some sources say it is part of Serbo-Croatian (of which some classify it as Old Shtokavian, others do not), some do not (etc.). Unless we have a clear reason why one source is superior to another, the best thing we can do is say that its inclusion is disputed, which we currently do. Torlakian's inclusion in the list can be disputed for two quite distinct reasons, but that's nevertheless 'disputed'. Burgenland Croatian does not constitute a clade, because its subdialects belong to distinct Serbo-Croatian dialects (some are Kajkavian or Shtokavian, most are Chakavian). Slavomolisano is Shtokavian with a Southern Chakavian adstratum. --JorisvS (talk) 16:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
It's correct that it's disputed of two different reasons, but if you read one of my points above, we have to omit including disputed facts as they don't show anything reliable to our readers. My idea behind the proposal to include the article on the dialects was just to avoid any listing of dialects which are disputed and not considered basic for the language. What we need in this case is to link to the main article and list just those who are considered basic for the concept (the same reasoning was expressed by Kwamikagami above). Such sources claiming that Torlakian is one of the basic dialects for the concept do not exist or I'm unable to find them. I will leave a note in the article's infobox in order to avoid any confusion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 01:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
It's one of the main dialects ("basic") in some of the views. To omit it because it is disputed is actually POV. Including it and saying it is disputed is NPOV. You have not made a case why we should favor some sources over others. The info is mentioned in the dialects of Serbo-Croatian article, with refs. Do not change the stable version until you have actually made your point (and hence others agree). --JorisvS (talk) 11:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Others have already agreed to keep listing the three basic dialects. You're welcome to present sources where Torlakian is considered one of the basic dialects along with Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kajkavian. Once again, the section does not intend to document all the dialects of Serbo-Croatian, but only those that are basic for the concept of the language.-Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:45, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
P.S. Since you mention that it's necessary to provide sources that the three "basic", "main" (or whatsoever they're called) dialects are really those, then you might be interested to check the following:
  • Francis H. Eterovich: "Croatia: Land, People & Culture, Volume II". Editorial Board (June 1, 1970). ISBN 978-0802032263.
  • Brozović, D. (1988), "Jezik, srpskohrvatski/hrvatskosrpski, hrvatski ili srpski", D. BrozoviölP. Iviö, Jezik, srpskohrvatskilhrvatskosrpski, hrvatski ili srpski, Zagreb.
  • Friedman, Victor (1999). "Linguistic emblems and emblematic languages: on language as flag in the Balkans". Kenneth E. Naylor memorial lecture series in South Slavic linguistics ; vol. 1. Columbus, Ohio: Ohio State University, Dept. of Slavic and East European Languages and Literatures.
  • Bonnie Marshall, Vasa D. Mihailovich: "Tales from the Heart of the Balkans". World Folklore Series. Libraries Unlimited (August 15, 2001). ISBN 978-1563088704.
  • Kordić, Snježana (2004). "Pro und kontra: "Serbokroatisch" heute" [Pro and con: "Serbo-Croatian" nowadays]. In Krause, Marion; Sappok, Christian. Slavistische Linguistik 2002: Referate des XXVIII. Konstanzer Slavistischen Arbeitstreffens, Bochum 10.-12. September 2002. Slavistishe Beiträge ; vol. 434 (in German). Munich: Otto Sagner.
  • Pernilla Danielsson, Michaela Mahlberg, Geoff Barnbrook: "Meaningful Texts: The Extraction of Semantic Information from Monolingual and Multilingual Corpora". Corpus and Disclosure. Continuum (December 23, 2004). ISBN 978-0826474902.
  • Jasna Capo Zmegac: "Strangers Either Way: The Lives of Croatian Refugees in Their New Home". Berghahn Books; English-language Ed edition (July 1, 2007). ISBN 978-1845453176.
  • Kordić, Snježana (2009). "Policentrični standardni jezik" [Polycentric Standard Language]. In Badurina, Lada; Pranjković, Ivo; Silić, Josip. Jezični varijeteti i nacionalni identiteti (in Serbo-Croatian). Zagreb: Disput. ISBN 978-953-260-054-4.
  • Rick Steves, Cameron Hewitt: "Rick Steves' Croatia and Slovenia". Avalon Travel Publishing; Seventh Edition edition (May 8, 2012). ISBN 978-1612381909.
  • Rick Steves, Cameron Hewitt: "Rick Steves' Eastern Europe". Avalon Travel Publishing; Seventh Edition edition (June 12, 2012). ISBN 978-1612381893.
Moreover, it's widely accepted that the classification of Shtokavian, Chakavian and Kajkavian as three basic dialects associates to their names derived from the different words for "what?" in these dialects ("što" or "šta", "ča" and "kaj"). Torlakian has never been put in the same line with these three nor it was named in the same fashion to reflect the meaning of the same word ("tor" is by no chance in any of the subdialects or microlocal varieties a word with that meaning). Please tell me if you need additional sources and I shall import them here, but it's much appreciated if you post sources where Torlakian is cited along with these three as one of the basic dialects to counterbalance the views. We cannot simply circumvent the rules for reliability and citing sources to rely on your wish to classify Torlakian as one of the basic dialects.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

What I continue to find amazing is that Kiril is ignorant of the difference between a reliable source and irrelevant non-linguistic drivel. Travel guides as sources for linguistics? Baloney. Kiril's list is composed primarily of irrelevant non-linguistic sources. Consensus has long ago been reached on this. Torlakian is listed as a dialect with the "(disputed)" tag following it. Look the word "disputed" up in the dictionary, Kiril. It means exactly what you are saying--some linguists say "yes", some linguists say "no". But we don't care what travel guides have to say on the subject. --Taivo (talk) 18:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

If you call the works by Friedman, Brozović, Kordić and Žmegač non-reliable sources, then you really have drastically different criteria on what can be considered a reliable source. And please stop referring to that consensus which apparently has never been reached. If you feel so sure about it, then you're welcome to give me a link to that page; if not, please stop using fictional discussions and insinuations to support your point.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
P.S. You should also check the latest discussion to see that the newest edit was accepted as a compromise between my proposal and what the others commented in that discussion. Kwamikagami mentioned that he's fine with adding a link to the dialects article, though he's opposing the exclusion of the three basic dialects for the concept of SC. He later briefly attributed on one of my comments as a cogent argument. No such user has expressed his very mild support to exclude Torlakian. The only one who opposed it was JorisvS, who presented his point with not even mentioning any source.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:43, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Kiril, I stopped reverting you once you started making cogent arguments, but it is up to the person desiring change (you) to establish consensus for it. You obviously have not done so. I'm also disappointed that you've regressed to using travel guides and other idiocies. If you continue fighting over this before achieving consensus, I'll join in again; in the end, the only thing edit warring will get you is being blocked. — kwami (talk) 18:52, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Kiril reported for edit warring: [2]. He's already up to six reverts in a hair over 24 hours. --Taivo (talk) 18:56, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
There are precisely three options here if we maintain both the link to Dialects of Serbo-Croatian and the list of Serbo-Croatian dialects:
  1. If all linguists agree that Torlakian is a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, then we keep Torlakian and remove the "disputed" tag.
  2. If no linguists consider Torlakian as a dialect of Serbo-Croatian, then we remove Torlakian.
  3. If some linguists say that Torlakian is a dialect and other linguists do not, then we keep both Torlakian and the "disputed" tag.
The reliable sources are clearly in the third camp, therefore to be NPOV, the third option (the current stable one) is the only option to use here. --Taivo (talk) 19:25, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. Kiril, note that it does not matter which word a certain dialect uses for "what" for it to be distinct from other dialects or not, also even if they are named after the predominant one in the dialect (note that this would mean there would be more, because kaj, ča, and što are not the only three words in use for "what"). --JorisvS (talk) 19:30, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Ausbau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbau_language could usefully be added in the see also section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.244.95.193 (talk) 12:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Language doesn't exist

Language name was used during Yugoslavian times (after WW2 to 1990) and it's history now. This article should include at the first sentence: Serbo-Croatian was a name for language used in ex-Yugoslavia..." or something. Actually Bosnian is the oldest on our region, but Yugoslavian policy was to remove Bosnians/Bosniaks and Islam at all, also language name with it. --77.77.240.138 (talk) 19:40, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Please read the notice at the top of this page. This has been discussed countless times. CodeCat (talk) 20:01, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

The article in Croatian Wiki - a totally different article!

While the article on English Wiki states that it is about a pluricentric language with four mutually intelligible standard varieties, the article in Croatian Wiki states that it is about a hybrid "language" (within quotes) imposed in former Yugoslavia on expense of the uniqueness of Croatian language, and that in reality never existed and has never been used, while instead there are two different languages, Serbian and Croatian, that are not to be mixed. How is it possible that within the same project and the same encyclopedia, the same entry but written in two different languages, states completely different information, even opposite? If this article contains the correct info, let it be stated in Croatian also. If the Croatian is right, then change this one. You cannot say in one language 'the sky is blue', and in another 'the sky is brown'. The Croats are more keen to be right, since they are supposed speakers of this "pluricentric language", right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.222.150.130 (talk) 16:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The article explains the issue in quite some details. Obviously, Croatian Wikipedia is more prone to succumbing to local political rethorics. But it does not mean that it should taint every other Wikipedia.
One may also notice that Serbian article has another approach, Bosnian article is more or less in line with this one and Serbo-Croatian article is exactly opposite to Croatian. Following your logic we should adapt Serbo-Croatian version, because it unites all the speakers of the language.
Bottom line: Wikipedia is guided by neutral point of view, which contradicts to your suggestion. Given that the issue is a product of balkanization (historical and lingustic irony?) of former Yugoslavia, the changes you suggest also violate WP:SOAP and WP:BATTLEGROUND. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 18:59, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
The question is, prone to succumbing to WHAT local political rethorics? The Croatian government and Ministry of education publicly denounced Wikipedia in Croatian and suggested Croatian school and university students to avoid it because of its extremist views on quite a few articles, connecting Croatian Wiki-editors to far-right, revisionist and even Ustasha circles, so it's not even official local political rethorics we a re talking about (see the incident of 2013). As stated below by user Surtsicna, if Wikipedia is guided by the neutral point of view (and not local political, or radical extremist point of view), then the entries should differ in language, and maybe some variations of content, not in the very core of the content itself. Wikipedia in English doesn't represent NATO or USA/UK point of view, isn't that right? 178.223.85.207 (talk) 08:53, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Sure, Wikipedia in English doesn't represent NATO, USA, UK or any other particular point of view. It summarizes POVs and represents issue in neutral fasion. That's why it goes through all details instead of claiming any particular view as correct one. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 22:22, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
Your comment does make sense. If something is true in one language, it is reasonable to expect it to be true in another. If, however, you read up on that controversy that hit Croatian Wikipedia last year, you will find that Croatian media and state institutions claim that Croatian Wikipedia is all but owned by right-wing extremists. If that is true, and the evidence presented at meta.wikimedia are very compelling, you should not be surprised to find that this article does not correspond to its Croatian language counterpart. Evidently, Croatian Wikipedia corresponds more closely to Conservapedia. Surtsicna (talk) 19:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
For the record: meta discussion is available here. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 21:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2014

Area or territory where Serbo-Croatian is spoken today covers 200 000 square kilometers.

79.136.40.200 (talk) 18:41, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. WooHoo! • Talk to me! 19:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Kwami

Quit the nationalistic bias. Bosniaks are a nation on equal par with the Serbs and Croats, historically and lingustically. The former phrasing only serves to position the Serbs and Croats as the "genuine nations". Take your objections to the SANU and HAZU, along with the fairy tales of "Islamcized Croats and Serbs". A: Bosniaks are historically not Serbs or Croats, they are a separate nation. B: The language has historically been known by region (also cited in the article). You don't think so? I don't think so, that you do not think so. Gosh. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 13:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Your wishing that to be so does not make it so. The Bosniak national establishment only took part in the second part of 20th century, and before that period they were collectively subsumed under one or the other national umbrella (and before 1918, often under the "Turkish" label), for one reason or another. If they were considered (by the forces that were) as a nation on equal standing, surely they would have been mentioned in the newly coined "Serbo-Croatian" language name, or as part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, would they? I'm not saying it is fair, but that's how things historically were.
I could agree that the article lead could be phrased differently, but your attempts to "fix" its "nationalism" with anachronistic political correctness were misguided at best. Why didn't you mention Montenegrins, then? No such user (talk) 13:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
It does not matter which the ruling forces were and what labels they exogenously, and arbitrarily, applied on the Bosniaks. Should we refer to the African Americans as "Negroes" and "Niggers" today because those who dominated them in the past did. Bosniaks have never used the name "Serbs" or "Croats" for themselves, not even the pre-Islamic medieval Bosnian population did. Bosniaks are an historic ethnic group who finalized their current national crystallization in the second half of the 20th century, correct. That same process took part in the 19th century for the Serbs and Croats, a mere century earlier. Are they therefore to be considered more "genuine"? What should prevail in the lead is the ethnological definition of things, and not what political establishments might have excercised their power at the time. If I find you a 19th century map where both Bosniaks and Croats are defined as Serbs, does that mean they were? The Bosnian identity and Bosniak name certainly harks back longer in Bosnia than the sense of Bosnian Christians as either "Bosnian Croats" or "Bosnian Serbs". Surely the unique distinction and continuation of Bosnia (and Bosnians) since at least the 12th century cannot be compared with "Montenegro" and "Montenegrins" (by and large 19th century formations). Also, finally, your flawed accusations of "anachronism" means that we cannot refer to anyone as Serb or Croat prior to 19th century either. In Croatia, not least, we had a bunch of people being slavonians and Dalmatians and speaking Slavonian and Dalmatian. Croats were barely to be found anywhere. Please. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 13:52, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Wow, the edit summary is also funny. "Which nations that were historically recognized". Is there some authoritative body which I have not heard of who determines the historic validity of nations? Most certainly not. The Serbs and Croats recognized themselves post-19th century, and refused to recognize Bosniaks. Simple as that. Ironically, seeing how Bosniaks had been more independent as Muslims in the Ottoman empire the previous 500 years. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 14:02, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Look, I disagree with most of your statements, as you attempt to project today's national ethnic narrative into the past. It's a false dichotomy that, since Bosniaks exist as a nation today, they must have existed a thousand years ago as well, just were somehow refused to be recognized by their more powerful neighbors. It's a false dichotomy from the start. But I don't have the guts to argue; the sentence in the article was meant to provide an overview of the historical context, and wasn't terribly informative either, so I just removed it. No such user (talk) 14:25, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Of course you don't agree, I didn't expect you to. Look here, no nations existed before the 19th century, not even the mighty Serbs and Croats. The contemporary Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats were formed in the past 150 years, not least out of mutual stimuli and antagonism. Before that we had regionalism, and tentative dimensions of "ethnicity" among the aristrocracy and ruling members of society. In Bosnia, that ruling society were Bosniaks, and yes they used the name "Bosniaks" for themselves, believe it or not. Claims of themselves using the name "Turks" are deliberately misrepresented and taken out of context. Also, undoubtedly being more powerful in the Christian Europe liberated from Turks, it is no secret nor myth that Serbs and Croats hampered the national emanicipation of Bosniaks. The devlopment of a European Muslim-majority nation was hardly in their interest, nor is it today. This conclusion is laid out in every major piece on the history of Bosnia. Being dominated and subjected to conformational propaganda for decades can eradicate people's sense of self-identity and esteem. Ever heard of bullying, guess what, is applies to nations too. Obviously in the long run, these attempts were not successful and Bosniaks established their nation beyond doubt. People become what they always were. Think there is a famous author who coined that or is it just me? If you ask me, I think there is a dog buried somewhere around here, and that doggy smells of the continued denial of Bosniaks and the hampering of their national identity, in the spirit of those 19th century winds emanating from their neighbours. Wow a little poetry, beautiful right? (: I just love the claim "although a large part of both nations have lived side by side under foreign overlords." The main area where they supposedly did so is exactly Bosnia, an area where Christians Bosnians until the 19th century did not claim to be either Serbs or Croats....THIS is what I was about to write before seeing your last edit. I approve of the middle ground offered by that edit and I'll just leave it at that. However I had to make this final post since I lived the poetry in it, and it took me some time to phrase it. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 14:43, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
This all is going terribly wrong-headed, while revolving around a pretty straight-forward issue. The first change ("Bosniaks, Croats and Serbs differ in religion and were historically often part of different cultural circles ...") obviously speaks about modern nation, that is recognised widely enough to be mentioned in this context without much controversy. Second change ("under a variety of names, such as "Yugoslavian", "Slavic", "Illyrian", ") is dead simple – the very next paragraph gives sufficient context.
The last change ("using a regional label" → "according to region, "Bosnian", "Serbian" and "Croatian"") is only ever so slightly trickier:
  1. obviously, more explicit description is better; so the real question is not whether revert the edit or not, but whether include "Bosnian" in the list;
  2. the inclusion of "Bosnian" is a matter of referencing – if there are independent reliable sources claiming the name "Bosnian" was used "During that period", it should be mentioned; if not – we've hit a WP:V wall that does not allow to place this claim be it true or false.
If there are sources claiming that "Bosnian" was used, and other sources, claiming that it was not, there is a real WP:WEIGHT problem to be discussed. But we are not at that point, at least not yet.
Overall, congratulations to fellow balkanians: you succeeded proving the adequateness of the term balkanization by turning completely non-political matter (whether the name "Bosnian" was used for the language of inhabitants of Bosnia) into fierce battleground for no apparent reason. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 17:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Since you are raising the issue again (largely to my advantage), may I just add that there is already a reference in the article dealing with the historical names of "Serbo-Croatian", and yes Bosnian is included. There remains no doubt as to the fact that Bosnian is a term/name with a long history. One of the earliest, if not the earliest, dictionaries of Serbo-Croatian was authored by Bosniak Muhamed Hevaji Uskufi Bosnevi who called his language "Bosnian". There is no dispute regarding the historical usage of the name Bosnian. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 18:37, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Like I said there are many examples of the language being called Bosnian, some are cited here [3] by John V.A. Fine. For those interested, the preface of the dictionary of Hevaji in 1631 reads the following: Mnogo je lijepih rječnika napisano. Sve kao dragi kamen probranih i omiljenih, ali nema napisana na bosanskom jeziku, ni sastavljena u prozi ni skićena u pjesmu. Moje je započeti, a Božije da mi dade da uspijem. In translation: There are many beautiful dictionaries written, all as a gem of exquisite and favorites, but none are written in the Bosnian language, neither composed in prose or sung in song. That is my role, and that of God is to grant me success." Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 19:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
So, here we have quite convincing references in favor of mentioning "Bosnian". Now, let's take a short break (a couple of days), so that opponents of mentioning Bosnian could come up with their arguments/evidence, and have this issue settled. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 19:44, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
If anyone should wish to contest my claim regarding the dictionary, source corroborating the use of the name "Bosnian" by Hevaji [4]. Czarkoff, I accept you raising the issue but not somehow focusing it on the part that needs the least attention, i.e. the historical presence of the name Bosnian. This is not, and cannot, be disputed by anyone. The sources are numerous. And already cited. This specific contention is created specifically by you, out of confusion? What was opposed to in the beginning was the mentioning of Bosniaks, and not "Bosnian", because Bosniaks were claimed somehow less of a dominant/influential/actual/recognized nation whatever (didn't even get it myself). The historic prevalence of the term/name Bosnian is well-recognized, and not only Muslim Bosnians (Bosniaks) used it but also Bosnian Franciscans (i.e. Catholics). So once again, the contention is not really here. Take my word for it. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 19:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Given that this whole discussion was somehow disconnected from the diff, I could not really identify the particular issue with the diff from this discussion, so I assumed that the issue lies with the onThly part that actually required some verification. If you are completely confident that the "Bosnian" within list of names of the language is unlikely to be challenged, feel free to remove {{dubious}}. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 20:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, I am confident that there is no basis to challenge it since reliable sources are clear as day. I prefer this version of the edit, showing all the invovled ethnicities and regional nomina, but I was willing to accept No Such User's edit too before you showed up. My position is that either we mention all involved ethnicities and/or names (as NPOV requires) or avoid the theme(s) altogether if we cannot agree. Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 20:35, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Historical usages of "Bosnian", "Croatian" and "Serbian" have nothing to do with modern-day B/C/S. History should be explained as it occurred, with shifts in usage according to the degree of indoctrination of the native populace, but not in a Bosniak-, Croat- or Serb-centric timeline, how everything in history "led" to modern-day inevitability. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
I concur. That is why the key-phrase "according to region" is stressed as opposed to "according to ethnicity". The language(s) were known as "Bosnian", "Croatian", "Serbian" and etc. in a purely regional sense prior to the 20th century, and following the 1990s, along ethnic lines. There is historically no correspondence between these regional names and the Serb, Bosniak and Croat nations as we know them today, simply due to the fact that regionalism predates the formation of those nations by centuries. I believe this is, or should be, hashed out in "Present sociolinguistic situation". Praxis Icosahedron ϡ (TALK) 23:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Language name doesn't exist

You wanna say that some Englishman, people from Nederlands etc. are more knowledgable than me and other people from Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro? How could you know better if you have never visited our countries, but only read about it from "Yugonostalgičars" who are still willing to make a new Yugoslavia with this stupid Serbo-Croat langauge. You cannot see this name at all. This name is history. It's completely unimportant and Wikipedia can't be still edited in this language. THIS IS HISTORY, same as Latin language, which is dead language. Morto! Understand? Online you can't find subtitles for movies on Serbo-Croat. And Bosnian is not standardized variety. That relation doesn't exist in linguistics, same as macrolanguage. By your story, English is standardized variety of German language, because English is Germanistic family language. This all is for CodeCat, No such user, JorisvS and other quasilinguists. Actually political marionetes of Serbo-Croatia and Yugoslavia, and against Bosnia. --SuperNepoznat (talk) 11:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

"You wanna say that some Englishman, people from Nederlands etc. are more knowledgable than me .." You bet'chum! HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
German and English are not mutually 100% intelligible on conversational level. Germans and English are not fighting over famous writers, regional literatures, and oral legacy, to whom they belong. Germans and English did not belong to the identical linguistic branch in late Medieval times up to 17th and 18th century. Germans and English linguists did not conclude in 19th century that their language was the same, and that it doesn't make any difference whether it was to be called English, German, or English-German, and stuck to that policy for over than a century. A foreigner cannot learn English, and automatically be a German-speaker and know 90% of standard German language and grammar, with the remaining 10% differing so little that it wouldn't take more than a few weeks to comprehend and adopt. Wikipedia in English sticks to the neutral point of view and isn't neither Croatian, nor Serbian fountain of wishes. If we were to translate the Croatian Wiki entry on this subject into English, one would indeed get the picture that the difference is similar to the difference between English and German, while in reality it is only slightly bigger than between standard US and UK English, and many times smaller than the difference between Shakespearean English and modern English.178.223.85.207 (talk) 09:13, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not about "righting wrongs", it's about presenting scientific consensus (which includes citing controversy, if and when necessary). Pushing PoV and being disruptive, as you are being, is not furthering your position in any way. It's only making you look worse. 78.0.196.247 (talk) 13:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
The names of languages cannot be determined by nationalism. You cannot tell the difference from them, whether you are in Belgrade, Sarajevo, Brcko, Zagreb or Podgorica.

210.49.74.186 (talk) 03:42, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Syllabic /r/

/r/ is syllabic when it is placed between two consonants but not part of the last syllable in the word. That tongue twister is great example of it, though it has spelling error, "na vrh" are two words. Sonorants are syllabic when words end with them, and those are exclusively loaned words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.185.67 (talk) 22:01, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Grammar section error

Cases are sorted a bit erroneous, 6th should be instrumental and 7th locative.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.185.67 (talk) 21:50, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

There is no real order to cases, so that is not much of an error. --JorisvS (talk) 21:55, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Actually there is, and they are also named by order, nominative is called prvi padež (first case), genitive drugi padež (second case) and instrumental and locative are called šesti padež (6th case) and sedmi padež (7th case) respectively. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.185.67 (talk) 22:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
The number they are assigned in arbitrary. Arbitrary naming does not suddenly give them a (natural) order. --JorisvS (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Of course it's arbitrary and your rebuttal of "natural" order is non sequitur. Problem is that that arbitrary order was decided by Matica Srpska and Matica Hrvatska in orthography manual from 1960, thus making that order part of Serbo-Croat grammar.
It is not a part of the Serbo-Croatian grammar, but of the descriptions of the Serbo-Croatian grammar. There is a difference: the former exists independent of how it is described or whether it is described at all. --JorisvS (talk) 22:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The "early development" paradox

This article shows Serbo-Croatian as being one language with single history, but in it's history section under early development it lists nothing but Croatian and Bosnian texts, that is archaeological and literal evidence that comes from areas that are currently as well as historically belonging to Croatian or Bosnian states. If this language indeed has a common history and early development, surely there would be inscriptions and literature found elsewhere? I personally can't believe that entire medieval Serbia left not one inscription or evidence of it's language that would be worth a mention there - if it's language was in fact Serbo-Croatian.

In other words, if early development of Serbo-Croatian is truly limited to nothing but area of medieval Croatian Kingdom and has left no trace in medieval Serbia (which had very obviously existed during the time period concerned and population of which presumably spoke one language or another), it shouldn't be called Serbo-Croatian but Croatian, with original Serb language apparently extinct. If on the other hand there is evidence to show that this language can trace it's continuity in medieval Serbia as well, it should be presented as part of the Early development passage. As it is, it appears as if the language had developed solely in Croatia then somehow suddenly spread among most of the southern Slavs in 19th century, like English developed in England then suddenly spread over North America and Australia due to one reason or another. Doesn't exactly make sense to a reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.39.13 (talk) 16:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

That's good point. Some of editors could add a word or two about literature from this list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_Serbian_literature but also few sentences about creation of the Old Church Slavic language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.223.244.177 (talk) 09:27, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
If you can find a Reliable Source with the information that you "can't personally believe," then by all means bring it forward for inclusion in the article.HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:51, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
I think you misunderstood. I am not making claims that I would then have to support with reliable sources, I am pointing out a logical flaw as a reader of the article. To repeat the problem: Language is claimed to be Serbo-Croatian, yet the Serb component is completely absent in the early history section (apart from the name of the language itself). If language really did originate solely Croatia as the article seems to suggest then I, as a naive reader, don't see the point of naming the language Serbo-Croatian. If on the other hand there is evidence of this language in Serbia then this should be mentioned in the same section. What this article implies by it's silence on the topic of Serb language prior to 19th century is that Serbs spoke another language and only accepted "Serbo-Croatian" in the 19th century, since this is the first time article actually mentions Serbs and Serbia in the context of language's history.93.136.109.142 (talk) 22:17, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
The modern name of a language has nothing to do with its origin (regardless of whether or not SC was spoken in Serbia a thousand years ago). If we had to name languages based on origin, then English would be named Dano-German, while Spanish and French would have to be called Roman. CodeCat (talk) 00:26, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
This is an absurd comparison. French and Spanish are obviously not Roman because Romans spoke a different language. If French happened to speak Latin at this particular point in time, then we would call their language Latin, not Franco-Latin. Even more importantly, we then wouldn't use the term "Franco-Latin" when talking about language used by Virgil or Ovid. Yet Baška Tablet was written in Serbo-Croatian in 1100. and Serbs of the time didn't leave a single piece of text worth mentioning, while obviously producing texts as shown by a user above. Did they speak and write in a different language or is something missing in the article?
Article never explicitly says Serbs before 19th century never spoke Serbo-Croatian, it simply totally omits that information. It doesn't say anything, so it merely implies through silence on the topic which leaves an unclear picture. It would be important to point out this piece of info, no matter if answer is yes or no because that appears to be a rather crucial bit of information for understanding it's history, given the language is called SERBO-Croatian.93.136.109.142 (talk) 12:13, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Modern English is very different from Old English, and they should be considered distinct languages by any objective standard, yet we call both "English". The current name is just that, the current name. What Serbs spoke back then and what they called it is completely irrelevant to the name. Moreover, the omission of information need not imply anything and may simply be due to a lack of knowledge or that no one has bothered to write it down on Wikipedia. --JorisvS (talk) 12:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Well you seem to be saying that it is ultimately irrelevant what we call anything, as long as we know what we are talking about. While this is true in a trivial sense, many articles on Wikipedia offer an etymology as it is of interest to people. I agree that silence doesn't have to imply anything, but any reader who comes across an article with a genuine desire to learn something will be left ignorant of certain important aspects. I got to admit I came here with such motive. I know medieval Serbs left a good deal of writing behind and wondered if the language they used for these texts was an ancestor to modern language same as language of Marulić's Judita is. Yet I could find nothing, not even a yes or no. If knowledge isn't available, it can easily be said so in the article, although I kinda doubt it is unknown in which language existing evidence is written. If it's simply not written down because nobody bothered to do so, then my complaint about incompleteness is valid and I don't get what are we arguing about.93.136.109.142 (talk) 13:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Etymology is interesting, which is why there is an entire section on it. The latter of what you said just means that nobody has written it down on Wikipedia, which is a normal condition for an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. You could write down some sourced text yourself if you wish and (because this article is semi-protected) put it here on the talk page so that editors who can edit it can place it in the article. --JorisvS (talk) 13:47, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Naming section merely states that it is called Serbo-Croatian since 1824 and then proceeds to list names used throughout 19th and 20th centuries. It doesn't relate in any way to earlier times apart from mentioning it was called by multiple names prior to 19th century without any further explanation. You are right however that I focused on history too much to even notice the Naming above since this talk started. Still having again read it, I don't see anything there apart from the name being decided by convention in 19th century. I'm afraid I got no knowledge or access to literature that I could use to cover the pre-19th-century hole, but it would be very nice if someone with more knowledge and resources did.93.136.109.142 (talk) 14:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
It describes the history of the name "Serbo-Croatian", which does not go back further than the 19th century. What happened before has no bearing on that section, but missing information can be added to the history section. --JorisvS (talk) 15:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation of postdiplomski

"Pozdimplomski" pronunciation is common error, but still incorrect pronunciation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.185.67 (talk) 22:06, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If it's common, then it's just the colloquial pronunciation. You can't tell native speakers how to pronounce their own language, they know it best. — Peter238 (v̥ɪˑzɪʔ mɑˑɪ̯ tˢʰoˑk̚ pʰɛˑɪ̯d̥ʒ̊) 06:51, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

statistical similarity

It appears, serbo-croatian-bosnian is the same language indeed :) 178.222.7.33 (talk) 17:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Obvious bullshit. Claims that Russian and Mongol are as similar as Portuguese and Galician. — kwami (talk) 20:52, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
maybe bullshit, maybe error. dictionary sizes seem to vary a lot. :) 178.148.1.161 (talk) 00:26, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

SC names of historical institutions and organizations

This is not a question about SC but rather about how SC names of historical institutions, organizations, etc. are handled on WP. It seems like the convention is to have the western variant (Croatian) rendered in Latin, followed by the eastern variant (Serbian), rendered in Cyrillic. The problem is that in many cases (and certainly all those that have the term "Yugoslav" in them) the names are not identical. Like for example Yugoslav Air Force. The first one is "Jugoslavensko Ratno zrakoplovstvo", whereas the second one is "Jugoslovensko Ratno vazduhoplovstvo". Currently the latter is only rendered in its Cyrillic form (Југословенско Ратно ваздухопловство). Is this intended? Or should the eastern term also have a transliteration of its own where it differs from the western Latin term? As it is, it might lead those with no knowledge of Cyrillic to believe that they're carbon copies whereas in the example given, they're not. 93.138.56.94 (talk) 09:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes, there should be a transliteration of the Cyrillic. --JorisvS (talk) 11:56, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Swadesh list

I think not all 100 words in Swadesh list are identical, one of them differs 6. who? in Croatian is "tko", in Serbian and Bosnian is "ko" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.13.241.110 (talk) 06:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2015

It is not language any more that is fact, it was not even lanugage, it was communist unitary political decision.

89.164.178.247 (talk) 00:36, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

It is a language, just without an agreed upon politically correct name. There is enough proof for that in the article. Peter238 (talk) 01:04, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Not done: nonsense request Cannolis (talk) 01:11, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Another whacky anon. 98.67.0.13 (talk) 04:19, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Croatian anon - should have read the notices at the top of the TP and realized what the response would be. 68.19.4.230 (talk) 02:08, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

the request for references in the Political Connotations section are now six years old .......

While I agree with 99% of what is stated in this section, there are no references, and this lack of in-line citations could be read as Original Research. 68.19.6.22 (talk) 22:04, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Why is it not called Serbo-Croatian language?

That would be the more appropriate title as it's a language despite how many dialects it has.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 20:23, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

A few years ago there was a decision made somewhere, by someone, perhaps based on a policy, that only potentially ambiguous language names had "language" behind them. Thus "Navajo" could mean "Navajo language", "Navajo culture", "Navajo people", "Navajo rug", etc., so it includes the word "language". But "Serbo-Croatian" only refers to the language. I can't remember how long ago this happened or what policy or guideline it was based on. You might try moving the article and any objectors will show up right away and explain it. --Taivo (talk) 21:13, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Please don't try "moving the article" – we have the Requested Move process for a reason. The decision to move to this title can be found in /Archive 5#Proposed rename to "Serbo-Croatian" (without "language"), back in 2010, and "someone"s in that discussion included you, Taivo. :) While I don't particularly care one way or another, the said convention (WP:NCLANG) is still in effect so there's no pressing reason not to follow it. No such user (talk) 07:19, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I knew that moving (or threatening to move) the article would bring out someone who remembered why. Thanks User:No such user. --Taivo (talk) 08:39, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I don't remember trying to move it, but I'm asking that while Dari, a dialect of the Persian language is called "Dari language", why should a language like Serbo-Croatian consisting of two dialects be called a language. After all serbian and croatian are the two variants that consist serbo-croatian.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 22:38, 8 September 2016 (UTC)
Serbian and Croatian are just standard variants, as are Bosnian and Montenegrin. Superimposed on that the dialect situation is more complicated, with divisions including kajkavian, chakavian, old shtokavian, new shtokavian and torlakian. CodeCat (talk) 00:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Read the link that User:No such user provided. --Taivo (talk) 00:33, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Hey, for fairness, let's call it "Croatio-Serbian" for a while! Would that upset the nationalists, ya think? We can treat the name like a seat on the Security Council. 104.169.37.15 (talk) 02:19, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Further Reading section

I'm not sure what the purpose of the "further reading" section is or whether it's necessary. Several of the titles listed are quite old, none are cited in the article, & a few seem slanted toward a particular point of view (that is, arguing against the internal consistency of BCS as a language). In sum, I suspect this section is making a political statement rather than adding anything substantive to the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.255.197.66 (talk) 05:05, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Addition to political connotations (Edit request)

The section "Political Conotations" is missing to mention that the communist regime more or less aggressively tried to erase the differences between the variants and dialects of the language, which was mainly a clumsy and backfiring effort to suppress nationalism, and which was perceived as a part of the effort to erase cultural differences and also to promote "Newspeak". This is the main reason for the reaction to this force - the effort of each cultural group within Yugoslavia to try to preserve its dialect and its culture - and to underline this with the right to their own "language" - actually their own variant and/or dialect of the language, especially at the time they wanted to part from the communist regime. Zzzrin (talk) 13:43, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Basis for Chakavian, Kajkavian and Torlakian as "dialects"

I'm curious why these are considered dialects of Serbo-Croatian rather than languages of their own. Is there a particular linguistic isogloss that unifies all of Serbo-Croatian against neighbouring speeches (Slovene, Macedonian)? Are they mutually intelligible? CodeCat (talk) 15:28, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

They are considered dialects for political reasons. Kajkavian is more mutually intelligible with Slovene than with Croatian, Torlakian (I believe) is more mutually intelligible with Macedonian and Bulgarian than with standard Serbian, and Chakavian is not mutually intelligible with the other three dialects, at least not enough to classify it as the same language. Kajkavian was included as a separate language in the Glottolog, but curiously, it was also left as a dialect of Croatian – which, in the Glottolog, is a language separate from Bosnian and Serbian. ~barakokula31 (talk) 08:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
This is a very simplified point of view. There's no single "Čakavian". Čakavian from e.g. islands of Korčula or Brač is quite different from the Čakavian on islands of Cres and Krk. The south Čakavian is virtually fully intelligible with the neighboring coastal Štokavian dialects, and they share a number of common features (they are Ikavian, they changed -m to -n in endings, many similar words, etc.). Also, the idea that "Kajkavian" (which Kajkavian?) is more intelligible with "Slovene" is also oversimplified. Various dialects in Slovenia are barely intelligible. Of course, Kajkavian is very similar to eastern and northern dialects in Slovenia, but much less to south and western dialects in Slovenia, which have many features in common with the neighboring Čakavian dialects (I won't go into details, there are whole books about details). To simplify: what is a language in South Slavic regions was always a political decision, nothing else. 200 years ago you could walk from Western Slovenia to Black Sea in Bulgaria and observe how speech subtly changes, with very few sudden changes (esp. if you went along the coast to Montenegro, and then to interior) further you go east. There's no isogloss that unites the "Serbo-Croatian" region, and only one isogloss (a stress shift in some words) that unites the "Slovene region" (but that affects parts of Croatia as well, and not all Slovenia). dnik ► 11:24, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Hopeless

After seeing someone reverted my change, where my "Ijekavian pronunciation" was reverted back to "Ijekavian accent", I give up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Serbo-Croatian&oldid=prev&diff=573170530

It's simply hopeless; every edit is viewed through a political lens. This is exactly where Wikipedia fails: it will always reflect what most people think (or what is traditionally taught in schools), and this might be quite wrong.

Dialectal grouping in Croatia always reflected politics; it's simply ridiculous to deny that. Take a look at any contemporary dialect map, and you'll see that dialects stop exactly at the Slovene border. They don't stop at the Serbian, or even Macedonian or Bulgarian border. This is because political criteria were involved from the start. All dialects on one side of the Slovene-Croatian border had to be classified as "dialects of Serbo-Croatian", and all dialects on the other side had to be classified as "dialects of Slovene", because it was decided not only that Croats and Serbs speak one "language" (albeit with dialects), and all others speak another "language" (with its dialects).

Before the 19th century, when everyone spoke just their dialect, this was obviously wrong. And from the dialectological point of view, it's wrong even now.

The truth is that somebody from Zagreb (e.g. me), Croatia can today barely understand people 50 km away (still in Croatia) when they speak their dialect, but 150 years ago, if was much less so. The speech in cities and in public has converged toward the Standard Croatian/Serbian (or Serbo-Croatian) but this is a recent phenomenon, brought by schools, TV etc.

The traditional division of dialects has enormous problems, but I give up. Nobody really interested in dialectology will use Wikipedia for a reference anyway. dnik ► 11:08, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

If so, then there must be linguistic scholarly sources that back up your 'experiences,' correct?104.169.28.35 (talk) 05:29, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

Official status

It is not true that Serbo-Croatian is official in any of the states, so using "as" (meaning that it is official "as" [Serbian, Bosnian etc.], in Official language in field) is also incorrect. When constitutions of these countries say it is official, then it is; constitution is over anyone's claims, not important if this is (currently or always) good or bad, as long as law or something gets changed. --Obsuser (talk) 13:12, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

It is true in a linguistic sense that the constituent official dialects are mutually intelligible and therefore comprise one language. This has been discussed before and the text as it appears in the article is the result of discussion and consensus. The linguistic situation is clearly delineated in the "Name" section, justifying the overall use of the term "Serbo-Croatian". --Taivo (talk) 15:59, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

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Kajkavian is a separate language

Why is Kajkavian listed as Serbo-Croatian? It is recognized as a separate language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.128.43.111 (talk) 21:37, 27 August 2018 (UTC)


Census numbers

In section "Demographics" some general census data are mentioned, but there is no mention of any specific data regarding the actual census numbers of people who officially declared that their language is "Serbo-Croatian". Such data exists, for every successor state of former Yugoslavia, and those numbers should be presented in this article. Sorabino (talk) 22:27, 24 January 2018 (UTC)

? The refernces are there that state where the data came from.204.116.19.90 (talk) 18:31, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Syllabic "r"

We're told that this feature also exists in Czech, Slovak and Macedonian. Another language it exists in is Slovene, but this isn't mentioned. And in the linked article on Serbo-Croatian phonology there's no mention of other languages in which the feature exists, whereas you would expect a more specialised article to include at least the same and, if possible, more information. I think someone should compare the information in the two articles and make sure it matches. Since this would involve inserting or possibly removing links, I will leave this to someone with the requisite technical knowledge.89.212.50.177 (talk) 11:30, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

language code

This article says the language code sh is deprecated but confusingly doesn't mention that it is and why it's used by the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. --Espoo (talk) 06:58, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Nothing confusing about it: all ISO 639-1 and 6349-2 codes have been replaced (deprecated) by ISO 639-3 codes. --Taivo (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Good luck with those questions, nobody wants to deal with that here, because its just a tip of the iceberg. Code "sh" was deprecated back in 2000 by ISO, and here is the real link, not the useless one currently placed in the article. In spite of deprecation, code "sh" is still being used in many articles on English Wikipedia, and there are several users who are constantly removing codes for real languages, replacing them with "sh" code. Not to mention the fact that this article does not even mention the term "macrolanguage" (that is the official ISO designation for BCMS cluster). There should be an entire section on the subject, but it seems that we are still pretending here that "Serbo-Croatian language" actually exist, and for some reason those appearances "must" be kept, since the truth would consequently undermine the very existence of a failed pet-project called the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. Current census numbers in this article are the prime example of manipulation. Advocates of Serbo-Croatian "language" are terrified of the fact that all census data in last twenty years are showing zero-point-zero-something percent of "Serbo-Croatian" speakers in all countries of former Yugoslavia, and that is why in this article we still have a cumulative fairy-tail story about millions of speakers. This entire article should be transformed into a credible article on Serbo-Croatian as a multilanguage, referring to BCMS cluster, as defined by ISO. In its present state, this article is very misleading. Sorabino (talk) 09:24, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Link to Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia

We do not link under the "See Also" section to the Wikipedias in that language in language articles. There are links on the left to other language Wikipedias. A link to "Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia" is not appropriate here. --Taivo (talk) 11:27, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. It is definitely misplaced. Surtsicna (talk) 20:48, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

A mini-review of the article

I'm going to go through the article and list bits which I find problematic below. It'll take a couple of days, more or less. GregorB (talk) 19:37, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

One section that I know needs serious work is the entire Sociolinguistic section. It looks like the dumping ground for anything controversial that didn't find its way into the rest of the article. --Taivo (talk) 19:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

In the 20th century, Serbo-Croatian served as the official language of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia (when it was called "Serbo-Croato-Slovenian"),[16] and later as one of the official languages of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. - this makes it appear as if, say, in SFRY, there was a single standard, and the variant standards emerged only in the 1990s, which is not true. Things are perhaps less clear-cut for Bosnian and Montenegrin, but at least Croatian and Serbian clearly had separate standards, which haven't changed that much since, say, the 1980s.

Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to the prejudice that nation and language must match. An oversimplification. The controversy partly stems from the semantic confusion: when we say "Serbo-Croatian", do we mean a language family, or a largely imagined, state-imposed single language standard, a koine of sorts, famously dubbed a "centaur language" by Tomislav Ladan? A quite humorous example of this confusion: in a 2008 interview with Ranko Matasović,[5] a journalist states that "Serbo-Croatian was taught in schools", while in reply Matasović posits S-C "never existed"; however, Anita Peti-Stanić - perhaps in reply - says in a later interview[6] that S-C existed and was not taught in schools! Note these are not (IMO at least) necessarily actual disagreements, they are simply talking about different things. A well-explained history of 20th century language politics in Yugoslavia should make it clear that controversy about S-C is actually about a little more than simply "prejudice".

The "Early development" section - looks OK to me, generally speaking; judging whether this is a good overview or not will require someone more knowledgeable.

In June 1941, the Nazi puppet Independent State of Croatia began to rid the language of "Eastern" (Serbian) words, and shut down Serbian schools.[45] Actually, quite a bit more could be said here: making the use of loanwords punishable by law, banning Cyrillic script, etc.[7]

That's it for today. GregorB (talk) 20:48, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

That's a good start. I'll be out of the country (my country) until next week, so my connectivity will be limited. But your notes will be a good start for fixing some of the problems, especially figuring out what to do about that pesky ambiguous label, "Serbo-Croatian". --Taivo (talk) 02:38, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Let me illustrate the ambiguity of the term - at least in Croatia - with another example, the intro of this article's Croatian counterpart:
Serbo-Croatian language [...] was a political name for a hybrid language which was supposed to be created by merging Croatian and Serbian, according to some Slavists, it was just a wish envisioned from 1850 onwards, but was not realized before 1954 and the so-called Novi Sad Agreement. There were attempts to impose this wish from 1954 to 1990, when, according to the supporters of the hybridization, Serbo-Croatian, as a failed macrolanguage, dissolved into Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian and Montenegrin.
The above appears barely literate - that's because I've retained the flavor of the original in this translation - and is confused on many levels. (Croatian Wikipedia is infamous for its blatant bias and poor quality, and this is a case in point.) Nevertheless, this is how many people see it, i.e. exclusively as a failed unitarian project. GregorB (talk) 16:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I've seen this wording over and over again here in the English Wikipedia. We need to clarify the ambiguity I'm sure. --Taivo (talk) 22:28, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Continuing the review...

Matica hrvatska and Matica srpska were to work together on a dictionary, and a committee of Serbian and Croatian linguists was asked to prepare a pravopis. Not sure why "pravopis" is used here; that's "orthography manual".

Yet Croatian linguists claim that it was an act of unitarianism. The rest of the paragraph, starting with this sentence, is highly argumentative and should be significantly rewritten.

Regardless of these facts, Croatian intellectuals brought the Declaration on the Status and Name of the Croatian Literary Language in 1967. This completely distorts the meaning of the Declaration. Its thrust was that, while notionally Croatian and Serbian were equal, in practice Croatian was being pushed out, particularly by federal institutions.

West European scientists judge the Yugoslav language policy as an exemplary one:[54][55] although three-quarters of the population spoke one language, no single language was official on a federal level.[56] This is somewhat ironic in light of the Declaration, as explained above.

Serbo-Croatian was a kind of soft standardisation. "Soft standardisation" is a very apt description, I'd say.

"Declaration of the Common Language" does not belong to this section ("Modern standardization") as it is not about standardization - I'd move it to the "Present sociolinguistic situation" section.

The "Demographics" section really needs more sources, and is already tagged as such.

I'm skipping the technical sections and will continue with "Present sociolinguistic situation". GregorB (talk) 19:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Just one more thing before I continue (in a couple of days, possibly): Official languages were declared only at the level of constituent republics and provinces,[57][58][59] and very generously: Vojvodina had five (among them Slovak and Romanian, spoken by 0.5 per cent of the population), and Kosovo four (Albanian, Turkish, Romany and Serbo-Croatian).[57][60] Slovak, Romanian, Turkish and Romany being official languages anywhere in Yugoslavia is complete news to me. Perhaps these were limited to certain municipalities (contrary to what the text claims), or they had limited official status. At any rate, I find this bit of information to be somewhat suspect. GregorB (talk) 16:10, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Part III

Enisa Kafadar argues that there is only one Serbo-Croatian language with several varieties. Context needed: who is Enisa Kafadar? Tagged accordingly.

Daniel Bunčić concludes that it is a pluricentric language, with four standard variants spoken in Serbia, Croatia, Montenegro and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Ditto. These two are definitely not household names.

That wording also makes it sound like Serbian and Croatian are not spoken in Bosnia. — kwami (talk)

The majority of mainstream Serbian linguists consider Serbian and Croatian to be one language, that is called Serbo-Croatian (srpskohrvatski) or Croato-Serbian (hrvatskosrpski).[citation needed] A minority of Serbian linguists are of the opinion that Serbo-Croatian did exist, but has, in the meantime, dissolved.[citation needed] Not sure if the first sentence is correct; IIRC, more recently Serbian linguists have started to distance themselves from S-C, although I cannot say which view is now prevalent. The second sentence again conflates the language with the language standard. This paragraph should be rewritten per sources.

A more detailed overview, incorporating arguments from Croatian philology and contemporary linguistics, would be as follows: What follows is a pro et contra debate, which is generally not advisable (see WP:PROCON), and here it appears argumentative and out of place. (Also, not sure why it is in the "Croatian linguists" section - whoever makes the arguments, these counter-points should be equally valid.) GregorB (talk) 17:54, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The lead is still being policed and kept 100% one-sided

The lead of this article is still being kept in pure 100% one-sided form, representing only one single view on the entire Serbo-Croatian problem. Following the discussion above, I introduced a totally neutral and referenced addition to the lead, that goes like this: "Several questions regarding the linguistic nature and classification of Serbo-Croatian have been the subject of long-standing debates and disputes. Within the scholarly scope of Serbo-Croatian linguistic controversy, there is a wide spectrum of different views and opinions regarding the question whether Serbo-Croatian comprises a single language, or a cluster of closely related, but separate and distinctive languages. Current linguistic views on those subjects are spanning from the notion that Serbo-Croatian still exist as a unified language, up to the notion that it never really existed as such, with majority of views falling somewhere in between those two opposite poles". Unfortunately, that addition was removed, by user TaivoLinguist, who continues to police and censor this article, claiming that there is some kind of "consensus" against the introduction of other views in the lead. Is anyone here actually opposed to additions that would present full scope of the relevant views in the lead? If there are some who would like to keep the lead in its present 100% one-sided form, please speak up. Sorabino (talk) 13:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

That is not "totally neutral" and illustrates your basic problem. You continue to think of "Serbo-Croatian" as the Yugoslav standard and not as the linguistic label for the dialect continuum. Once you wrap your head around the actual language that we're discussing and not your false construct of it, then you'll see that your paragraph, which violates WP:UNDUE up one side and down the other, is a meaningless comment. --Taivo (talk) 14:25, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Taivo, I'm not sure if you're aware that, in Croatia, saying publicly that Croatian language is a member of the Serbo-Croatian language family, or something to that effect, is quite literally a career suicide for any linguist. AFAIK, the only Croatian linguist that takes this position is Snježana Kordić - not a problem for her because she works (or worked?) in Germany. This is an important consequence of what Sorabino attempted to describe in the lead. For all I know, all Croatian linguists may be dead wrong, but they're scientists too: the entire body of Croatian linguists, right or wrong, cannot be explained away as a bunch of zealots or crackpots, unworthy of serious consideration. Theirs may be a minority view in global terms, but is it entirely insignificant? GregorB (talk) 19:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
We deal with these issues every day here on Wikipedia--countries that demand X, but are not widely supported in the literature, or that are not common English names, etc. I'm not opposed to a brief reference to the Croatian point-of-view in the lead, but nothing that will violate or impinge on WP:UNDUE. Let's see, there are the quarterly attempts to change Kiev to Kyiv because the government and people of Ukraine demand it, the continuous trademark infringement rants made by Greece against Macedonia, the regular stripping of "Serbo-Croatian" out of these articles on non-Slovenian West South Slavic, etc. --Taivo (talk) 19:44, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm definitely not demanding that things be renamed or such; unlike the examples you provide, this is chiefly a matter of relevance and balance. GregorB (talk) 20:22, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
GregorB, just a note, "the entire body of Croatian linguists" includes more than just ones that live in Croatia. Notrium (talk) 20:06, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
You're quite correct: indeed, what I meant is "the entire body of linguists in Croatia" - still not an insignificant group, nevertheless. GregorB (talk) 20:20, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Believe it or not, there are un-biased, non-nationalists in Croatia. I know, I talk to them. They resist the official gov't pressure everyday, and I respect them greatly for doing so. In time, the effects of the Yugoslav wars will fade, the ethnic hatreds will change as the victims of the war die out, and good men of all sides will strive to come into line with the rest of the world's scientific view of "Serbo-Croatian" - maybe the linguists will hold a council and rename the common language of the Bosnians/Serbs/Croats/Montenegrins to something that leaves out the various ethnic groups so that it will be less irksome - ... "neo-Balkan South Slavic" or some such. It will disappoint some but might satisfy others, along the lines of re-classifying Pluto as a "dwarf planet." But these temporary (although to the people living today it seems very long-lived) nationalistic notions will pass and the linguists will eventually adhere to the science. And that is what Wiki must adhere to now and always.50.111.50.240 (talk) 23:47, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Indeed. I've always felt that, even with all its historical baggage, "Serbo-Croatian" is still preferable to "Non-Slovenian West South Slavic". But my "feelings" don't count when reliable sources still use "Serbo-Croatian" for the common name of this language. --Taivo (talk) 03:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
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