Talk:SlutWalk/Archives/2013/April

"a movement of rallies across the world"

The source for this statement...

The SlutWalk protest marches began on April 3, 2011 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and became a movement of rallies across the world..

...says this...

The group of about 3000 women and men, and a few children, who congregated at the State Library yesterday in support of the worldwide movement looked both sexy and chaste, radical and conservative.

It does not say that there have been rallies around the world. It only says the movement is worldwide. Which I think is pretty suspect. I could probably find a more significant "worldwide movement" for Star Wars than for the Slutwalks. As far as I can tell, outside of a couple cities in the Canada, and a few in the US, there is nothing but a bunch of twitter and facebook pages proposing rallies. I have found no evidence of rallies outside of 3 countries: US, Canada, and India (the Indian one was very watered down, is my understanding).

So, I have done more research than is required of me to justify rewording this content in a more objective way. The WP:ONUS is now on you to provide reliable sources establishing that this indeed a worldwide movement of rallies, and not a handful of twitter accounts.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to think that this was a worldwide sexual revolution, but what I've been able to dig up just does not support that idea. The fact that this article relies so heavily on primary sources suggests that it is more promotion than actual fact. Unfortunately, promotion is not what we do on Wikipedia. We report the facts in perspective. Reading this made it seem like Slutwalks are more significant than the Arab Spring, which is clearly not the case. PraetorianFury (talk) 18:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Take two

And we're back to this, I think it's funny that this same issue that I brought up in January is still being fought over with 0 comments by involved editors besides myself. I'm reverting this to the more conservative statement of 3 countries again, and here is why the onus is not on me to find source stating that the rallies happened in 3 countries. You can't prove a negative. Sources will not say that "a slutwalk rally did NOT occur in this country". Let's take a look at WP:ONUS and how it works, shall we?

Sometimes editors will disagree on whether material is verifiable. The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material

The source in question is clearly promotional, so I am disputing its reliability for the claim that slutwalks are a "global movement" of rallies. Thus the onus is on YOU to establish that it is indeed a global movement of rallies. Your behavior thus far has been blatantly aggressive. You have contributed 0 sources, you have not commented on the talk page, and don't think I didn't notice your attempt to wait for me to leave the article. If you're editing in good faith, asking for additional sources is the smallest burden possible. Google this and see if you can find rallies outside of the US and Canada (and one in India). You won't find any, because none exist. Prove me wrong, please. I'd love for Slutwalks to be a global thing, as I said before. I'm not trying to diminish the accomplishments of feminist activists, but we do need a healthy dose of skepticism on Wikipedia. We should provide an accurate picture of reality, and if these protests have mostly happened in countries where women are already comparatively empowered, that is what we should say to our readers.

Sigh

• London" http://slutmeansspeakup.org.uk
• Paris http://disciplineandanarchy.wordpress.com/2011/10/01/slutwalk-paris-1-october-2011/
• Berlin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKA7JbGsiKU

The first three capitals I googled. I really don’t understand what the problem is here. Do you concede Europe? Before I go on... Hyper3 (talk) 22:28, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

more

• Brazil http://globalvoices.org/2011/06/19/brazil-slutwalk-throughout-the-country-in-images/
• Australia http://globalvoices.org/2011/05/30/australia-slutwalks-spread-the-word/
• Israel http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/dozens-of-israeli-slutwalk-protesters-hit-streets-of-jerusalem-1.428276

Well this is not how I googled. I just googled "slutwalk" and scrolled down the first few pages of results, and the only countries I found with that method were what I mentioned. Call me a poor googler if you wish, but it was at least a good faith attempt. I've restored the word "globally" and I think I'll take a few minutes to create a list of cities that have held rallies. Your sources leave something to be desired but it is a good enough starting point that I know what to look for and can find some WP:RSs. I told you I was working in good faith :p — Preceding unsigned comment added by PraetorianFury (talk • contribs) 22:51, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

still more

• Hong Kong http://slutwalkhongkong.wordpress.com
• Singapore http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-dyCjivywQ
• Finland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iklKki4R-2M Hyper3 (talk) 23:16, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I did not expect Chinese would take part in these rallies. Impressive. PraetorianFury (talk) 23:21, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

FYI, we're still missing Africa. And technically the Middle East is its own cultural zone, but I really doubt this would happen there. PraetorianFury (talk) 23:23, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Originally, there was a list of Slutwalks, and it was taken out because of WP:LAUNDRY. Could you read this and come back to me with your comments? Hyper3 (talk) 23:27, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

It's a project, not a policy. And the list "guidelines" they mention is an essay, not a policy. There's nothing definitive here to deny having a list of Slutwalks that I can see. Just a few editors who collected at one point to try to remove lists, but who are no longer participating in that project, if the template on that page is any indication. In any case, consensus on the page is more important than anything else. And WP:IGNORE gives us great freedom if we choose to apply it. I think in some way, we should indicate all the many places that Slutwalks have taken place, for exactly the same reason I was removing the global bit. We need to prove that it is truly something with global scope. A list might not be the best way, but perfection is not required, and perhaps it could be a launching point for a better solution later. PraetorianFury (talk) 15:20, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

It is hard to get good reliable footnotes for this sort of thing, especially an exhaustive list. I have tried to make this page as trustworthy as possible. I happen to agree with WP:Laundry though I understand you might not find it that persuasive. If you would like to illustrate "global" with references to particular places that it has happened, then I would prefer prose. Any objection? Hyper3 (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

The sources I've included in the article are considered reliable, I believe. Here are some for Hong Kong: [1], Singapore [2], and Finland [3]. We've got the sources (excluding France, might be worthwhile to try to find a French speaker to look for one), we're just lacking the text. I would be concerned with removing the list without any replacement. The article relies heavily on primary sources, which is normally bad form that you only see in biased/one-sided, low-traffic articles. I see this often while browsing the fringes of Wikipedia, an editor will exaggerate the scope of their personal hobby or other passion. This was the reason for my skepticism. Having definitive proof of Slutwalk's pervasiveness I think really enhances the article. What I'd like to see is something like Legality of cannabis by country or Use of capital punishment by country. I don't know that there's enough material to justify an article split, which is why I think it should go here. PraetorianFury (talk) 17:27, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

So in the mean time,prose is acceptable. Hyper3 (talk) 10:02, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

That's a fair compromise. PraetorianFury (talk) 17:56, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo ≠ non-Western

I will state my reasons to why I changed information there.

People here go to high schools and Universities (heavily influenced by many kinds of Western ideology you can think of, and frankly speaking, compared to developed countries and even Spanish-speaking countries, or Portugal – a place the average en-wikipedia editor knows little about –, southeastern Brazilian education is pretty much a factory of communism, only those areas related to economy and enterpreneurism revile left-wing ideologies and socioeconomic policies), have low fertilities (actually Brazil is under the replacement level for some time, especially the 5 southernmost states with more money, higher quality of life and over 52% of self-reported white people in censuses that AFAIK will start to experience natural population decline this decade if they aren't already), and many more (you can see the Brazilian maps on our socioeconomic indicators here and here, for example), one can argue to say that makes militant left-wing Latino opinions on how our part of the global south is subject to the imperialism of Western identity politics at least inappropriate or misquoted. Is there Western misrepresentation of Brazilian realities? Yes. But does the imagery Americans having of gender violence including mestizo men something to do with our place in SlutWalk (what the articles seemed to talk about, idk anymore, it was kinda irrelevant so tl;dr)? No.

Actually, citing Brazil and Honduras on the same line (a hugely wrong thing given the major differences between a poor highly indebted small-sized Spanish-speaking Central American place and middle income emergert big-and-diverse Portuguese-speaking South America) had nothing to do with what the source meant, what is obviously worse than a person that is native to Portuguese and learning Spanish since 7 or 8 (that was regarded as a genius for hyperlexia when 2-5, it doesn't matter as Portuguese and Spanish differ largely by our France-influenced and their post-Basque-Leonese-creole vocabulary and phonology though grammar is almost the same and we got the much more complex syntax, but just saying) explaining Ibero-American culture/language especially when his point is illustrated by a wiki article in itself (machismo was also good before some IP appeared, put a lot of bad styled though sourced information and flied away).

Also since it repeats stereotypes that Latin America has a monolithic culture (when the culture of rich, metropolitan, white Brazil, that present in such kinds of movement in the same way we see mostly middle-and-upper-class, urban, white North America, this version at least is based in that of 2 centuries ago Portugal, with a stronger flavor of Western Europe and globalization much as the modern Portugal, so certainly closer to that of a European country than to its more distant poor neighbors), that doesn't change with time and that shouldn't be influenced by external forces, a reasoning that I find idiotic even for our indigenous peoples, imagine for us that were affected by multiple foreign urban youth subcultures and music genres, had our tons of different political and social movements, and are even legalizing same-sex marriage before most of North America and Europe, but still have a culture where men should have to prove their "natural place" since the very start of puberty, sometimes even before, for the fear of [mainly] being labeled as queer, and perfect women are idealized as "saints", while those that are sexually liberated are named "whores". A paradigm that is also present in many other regions of the world, and feminism answers this!

I'm not saying that the sources don't have nice points. Just that this global south thing presented by the Wikipedia article was misplaced and unsourced, it confused two very different cultures into a same pot of "Hispanic", while my adds are quite reasonable and obvious. I thought it was polite to clarify. Lguipontes (talk) 07:21, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

It seems vadi@ (tramp for both men and women, slut more often than whore for women) and vagabund@ (vagabond/hooligan/punk for both men and women, the same meaning for women) are pretty coherent Portuguese translations. I used only the usual first terms, I thought the sexist ones were merely mischaracterized translations of seldom obscene terms. I was raised in an environment without female-negativity and sex-negativity but where unpolite attitudes such as obscene language were hugely shun, from 13 ½ I wasn't welcomed in male-only groups and from 14 ¾ I didn't had IRL male close friends (for various reasons), the first coincided with me coming out of the closet, so it's natural I knew those only in porn.

But their sexist usage seems to be clearly inherent and current: http://www.dicionarioinformal.com.br/vadia/ http://www.dicionarioinformal.com.br/vagabunda/ so the claim that Portuguese lacks specific terms for slut also goes down water. Lguipontes (talk) 08:31, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

A few things. First of all, you seems to have the wrong idea about what we do here. It seems you're very well read on gender issues in Brazil and South America, and that's great. But even with the expertise that you have, we can't accept your original research in the article. Everything that is included must come from reliable sources. Whether or not I agree with your assessment doesn't matter. What I have seen so far are 0 sources provided to support the information that you want included. This is potentially controversial material, so it absolutely must have good sourcing. And the onus is on you to provide them. Until those sources are provided, the material needs to stay out.

You said that, "this global south thing presented by the Wikipedia article was misplaced and unsourced". This is what the source says:

"According to SlutWalk’s website, the event is slated to be reproduced in Argentina sometime this year. It’s the country I was born and raised in, among Spanish, Guaraní and Portuguese speakers – and I can assure you that the word “slut” is not used by anyone there. This is not what we need. I do not want white English-speaking Global North women telling Spanish-speaking Global South women to “reclaim” a word that is foreign to our own vocabulary. To do so would be hegemonic, and would illustrate the ways in which Global North “feminists” have become a tool of cultural imperialism. I will be going back home in about a month, and want to do so without feeling the power of white women bearing down on me from 6,000 miles away. We’ve got our own issues to deal with in South America; we do not need to become poster children to try to make you feel better about yours."

It seems to me that what is currently in the article is an accurate paraphrasing of what was stated in the source. That is the only reason I have restored it. If you have sources that dispute this, please provide them and we can discuss how to cover all significant viewpoints published by reliable sources with respect to their weight. PraetorianFury (talk) 16:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)