Talk:Sonia Shankman Orthogenic School

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Notes[edit]

This article strikes me as rather sanitised. There's a lot more we could put under "History". Carolynparrishfan 17:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a lot more should be put under history. The history of the school is rather convoluted and certain aspects are difficult to confirm, but I will see what I can do. CelticLabyrinth 21:42, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As someone with personal connections to the school, I do have some knowledge of life at and history of the school. I will try to add what I can to the article.Tad Lincoln (talk) 08:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Be careful, though; your "personal knowledge" has to be verifiable through reliable sources, else it risks being removed as original research. Thanks! GJC 10:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
About that, I never understood what the problem is with putting original research on Wikipedia. It is unlikely that very much information about the school currently is available through "reliable sources" because it is simply not something that anyone would bother writing about. As someone who has been at the school, I would consider myself a reliable source, and there are plenty of others who would confirm the information. Should I write a book about it and then use myself as a reliable source?
Yeah, that's pretty much the only way it's gonna be accepted as a source on WP, sad to say. I understand your thoughts on that, but...well, let's just run that to its illogical conclusion. Say we let experiential sources like yours go through--which seems sensible and right, right? Well, pretty soon we are so far down that slippery slope that people with an axe to grind are making statements about, say, various ethnic groups--and citing it to their own negative experiences with those groups. Pretty soon, mayhem, chaos, crap flying around in outrageous quantities. And unfortunately, there are those who would totally go there with it. I agree with you that a bunch of stuff might well never be written about in a WP:RS and will thus be lost forever...all I can say is, write it down SOMEWHERE.....just maybe not here. Sorry....(personally, I'd have been interested to read it!)GJC 04:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to point out that a book actually exists about life at the school already, called "Not The Thing I Was." Though the book is a little dated, being about the author's experiences at the school during the 60s and 70s, it still would probably be a suitable source to talk about how school life is, or at least how it was. The.ravenous.llama (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There's also quite a lot of history in a book called "The Creation of Dr. B". If I felt like dragging my lazy butt from my chair, I could walk into the next room and get the author, publisher, etc--but: lazy. Later, perhaps, I'll add it. :) It covers, as you might well guess, the history of the school while Bruno Bettleheim was in charge; I'll confess it's a wee bit to the POV side, though I might be able to pull some useful info about the school itself--really, the book's POV has little to say against the school, more against Bettleheim himself. GJC 01:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't we use the Orthogenic School's website, in combination with these books, as combined sources? The.ravenous.llama (talk) 05:01, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note When Editing[edit]

When you edit this entry please do not change the context of the entry unless you have further information to add. If you believe information should be removed or changed discuss it here first. Editing sentences for gramatical errors has created several innaccuracies in this specific entry and helped create a confusing entry. CelticLabyrinth 21:59, 27 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Renovations?[edit]

The article states that renovations are currently underway to modernize the building. This is incorrect. It has actually been decided that the required renovations would be too extensive to be practical. There is currently a plan to either move the school to a different location or build a new building behind the current one. I am not sure if any more specific decisions have been made yet.Tad Lincoln (talk) 08:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. If "renovations" means regular maintenance to keep a 100-year-old building in shape, it's no longer being heavily worked on. This should be removed. Though a restoration project was undergone from 2004 - 2006 which included new carpet, windows, furniture, and a lot of work on plumbing and other utilities. As far as the plan to move/rebuild the school, it's completely deadlocked in the executive board of the school. No one has made a sound decision on it, and probably won't in the near future.

Speaking of which, where are the sources for the rest of the article anyway? The.ravenous.llama (talk) 01:01, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've been wondering about that too. Actually, this article looks incredibly familiar, and I think it's possible that it was plagiarized from the O'School website. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thoroughly looked through the Orthogenic School's website, and I'm concluding that it's not plagiarized, at least from the official website. To start, the tone of the entry in Wikipedia is very different than the website's entries. But you're right, it does seem familiar in some way. The.ravenous.llama (talk) 03:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I first wrote the original stub over 2 years ago- it was not plagiarized and has been edited by several people, but it is definitely not a well written article and lacks any citation. If anyone else wants to take up the task of writing a well cited article please do. CelticLabyrinth (talk) 19:38, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh- and the old website said something about renovations- feel free to remove that information as I do not have a cite for it. CelticLabyrinth (talk) 19:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
There. I've significantly modified the History section. There should no longer be anything there that doesn't have a citation (which I also handily added.) The.ravenous.llama (talk) 04:02, 22 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Photo?[edit]

This article may benefit from a photo of the front of the school and/or assorted areas of the interior. I would do it, but I have no idea how to add photos to an article on Wikipedia. Any takers? The.ravenous.llama (talk) 00:53, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First you have to upload the photo, then add it like any other wikilink, basically. (That's the quick-and-dirty instructions; better ones are here.) I have personally stayed away from images, as they're among the most contentious areas on WP--you have to either own the image rights or have created it yourself, or you'll find yourself in the dark morass of Fair Use Policy. I am not even going to TRY explaining THAT. But yeah--if you have an acceptable photo, it would definitely help the article. GJC 01:52, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thanks for clarifying. As soon as I have time a picture is going up. Unless someone else gets to it first. Probably not but still. The.ravenous.llama (talk) 03:33, 27 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mural and Other Artwork[edit]

The mural by the Pub/TLC building is by Jordi Bonet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordi_Bonet http://www.jordibonet.net/Commun/Oeuvres/Chicago1.html . There's some other artwork and sculptures in the school that are worth noting, although I am not sure who the artists are. If anyone could work this into the article it would be nice. Also- there's a documentary film called "Refrigerator Mother", it features Autistic adults and their parents, many who were treated by Bettelheim and resided a the O'School- it might be useful for more info beyond the other books by and about Bettelheim if someone can obtain a copy. CelticLabyrinth (talk) 02:37, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vintage Photos[edit]

Here are some old school photos, looks like from the Bettelhiem era. There is a free use for educational purposes http://photofiles.lib.uchicago.edu/db.xqy?keywords=orthogenic Information on Rights and Permissions http://photofiles.lib.uchicago.edu/rights.html . I'm not going to mess with photos on Wikipedia, but if someone else wants to this would be an awesome resource. CelticLabyrinth (talk) 09:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

School relocation[edit]

This is a definite possibility at this point, as the school has been soliciting donations from alumni for this purpose. The letter I received said it was expected to be complete by 2011. However, I need to find a reliable source for this in order to include it in the article.. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The.ravenous.llama (talk) 22:20, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The school will be relocating to a new building in the spring or summer of 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.227.108.226 (talk) 18:36, 9 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bettelheim[edit]

Given there is an entire article on Bettelheim, I'm not sure rehashing it here is needed. Especially with such rose colored (and uncited) glasses. I'll try to revamp the history section. CelticLabyrinth (talk) 03:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it's a bit one-sided, but the issue is being able to find citable sources to support the less idealistic side of the Orthogenic School's history. If I find any usable sources I will post them here and they can be used. Ryankiefer (talk) 01:10, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Found! Here are two more potential sources (both books) courtesy of Amazon:
  • A Greenhouse for the Mind, by Jacqueline Sanders, ISBN 0226734641
  • Not the Thing I Was: Thirteen Years at Bruno Bettelheim's Orthogenic School, by Stephen Eliot, ISBN 0312307497
Hope these help to update the section. Ryankiefer (talk) 18:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV[edit]

I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:

This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
  1. There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
  2. It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
  3. In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On Bettelheim's tenure (1944-1973), mainly in-house sources and glaring omissions[edit]

We use the Orthogenic School site for about four cites and then a book by Bettelheim for one cite. Whereas , well, for starters there are abundant references that Bettelheim misrepresented his credentials.

Genius Or Fraud? Bettelheim's Biographers Can't Seem To Decide, Chicago Tribune, Ron Grossman, January 23, 1997, page 2: " . . But when the directorship of the Orthogenic School became available, he evidently gambled that because of the war no one would be able to check on his credentials. So he intimated to U. of C. officials that he had been cross-trained in psychology. Yet when his transcript was posthumously examined, it showed that he had taken but three introductory courses in the field. . "
Bruno Bettelheim: a cautionary life, Baltimore Sun, Paul R. McHugh, Jan. 19, 1997.
Turbulent dreams of a damaged saint, The Independent [UK], Nicholas Tucker, 8 December 1995. " . . despite claims to the contrary, possessed no psychology qualifications of any sort. . "
Finn, Molly, June/July 1997, First Things, "In the Case of Bruno Bettelheim"Archived February 20, 2012, at the Wayback Machine.
THE BATTLE OVER BETTELHEIM, Weekly Standard, Peter D. Kramer, April 7, 1997.

And there are more references. And our goal should be to use a good assortment of references and then tell it like it is, just like with any article. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:29, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Biography As Revenge, Chicago Tribune, Marie Winn (who writes regularly for The Wall Street Journal's Leisure & Arts Page), Feb. 23, 1997.
" . . . and his degree was in aesthetics, not psychology. . . "
An Icon of Psychology Falls From His Pedestal, New York Times, Books, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt (review of The Creation of Dr. B by Richard Pollak), Jan. 13, 1997.
" . . . True, Bettelheim had earned a doctorate in philosophy, . . . "

Other sources say art history. He did not have the academic background in psychology he claimed to have. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, have made a start. A lot of work remains. Please jump in and help if this topic interests you. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:13, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bettelheim's background was as a client of psychoanalysis?[edit]

Genius Or Fraud? Bettelheim's Biographers Can't Seem To Decide, Chicago Tribune, Ron Grossman, January 23, 1997, page 2.

' . . . During his Vienna years, Bettelheim had undergone analysis. His friends and ex-wife recalled that he was motivated to do so because his first marriage was failing. Yet once he became Dr. B of the Orthogenic School, he reinterpreted those sessions on the couch as the kind of training analysis every psychoanalyst must undergo. . . '

Separating Fact from Fiction in the Etiology and Treatment of Autism, Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice, James Herbert, Ian Sharp, Brandon Gaudiano (all three authors from Hahnemann University in Philadelphia, Penn.), Vol. 1: No. 1, Spring-Summer 2002.

' . . . although he frequently claimed to have studied under Freud in Vienna, Bettelheim possessed no formal training in psychoanalysis whatsoever, . . . '

Please help ramp up our article if topic interests you. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 19:11, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An Icon of Psychology Falls From His Pedestal, New York Times, Books, Christopher Lehmann-Haupt (review of The Creation of Dr. B by Richard Pollak), Jan. 13, 1997.

' . . . and whatever psychoanalytic theory he knew he had learned in order to impress a woman he was trying to win away from one of Freud's students, Otto Fenichel. . . ' [so, this is a little bit different than as client]

Finn, Molly, June/July 1997, First Things, "In the Case of Bruno Bettelheim" Archived February 20, 2012, at the Wayback Machine

' . . . Further claims included studies with Arnold Schoenberg (no evidence), acquaintance with Sigmund Freud, and Freud's personal blessing on Bettelheim's analytic training (no evidence he ever met Freud), psychoanalysis and psychoanalytic training (a truncated analysis, no training), two books published (no books published), membership in an organization that studied the emotional problems of children and adolescents (no evidence). . . '

Please help out if topic interests you. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 21:43, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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