Talk:St Nazaire Raid

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Good articleSt Nazaire Raid has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
September 11, 2010Good article nomineeListed
September 11, 2010WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
On this day...Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on March 28, 2011, March 28, 2015, March 28, 2018, March 28, 2021, March 28, 2022, and March 28, 2024.
Current status: Good article

Query[edit]

Hello everyone - what was a tar baby in this context? Regards, Notreallydavid 04:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Legitimate False Flag[edit]

"The British legitimately flew the Kriegsmarine ensign as a false flag "

That is a curious sentence. In what sense was it legitimate? There should probably be a citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.82.163 (talk) 14:50, 21 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A warship is allowed under international law to fly a false flag ('false colours') as a ruse de guerre, as long as the false flag is hauled down and the true national colours hoisted before opening fire. In this case the British would have flown the Kriegsmarine flag for as long as they could, before they then replaced it with the White Ensign when they knew their deception had finally been recognised and they decided to return fire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.59.39 (talk) 20:18, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Back out to sea[edit]

I think it would be worth mentioning that the reason Durrant got a VC was mostly due to the testimony of the German destroyer's Captain who admired the sheer bravery of the man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.251.252.7 (talk) 18:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

query[edit]

In the second paragraph ("Despite teaming up with a regular soldier unit in the town, the commandos were either killed or captured.") what is this 'teaming up'? Were there regular British infantry at St. Nazaire? Or is this some kind of erroneous reference to the arrival of a German army unit? HowardSelsam 17:13, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a detailed source for the raid. Involving a minor dispute concernig David Irvings details on the raid. It appears that Irving said 6? laborers were on board when the ship exploded. Any source for this - I assume he probably knows better than anyone but I would like the source if one exists. Thanks.159.105.80.141 19:48, 16 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removed reference[edit]

I removed a reference to The Sinking Of The Lancastria; Jonathan Fenby; Simon and Schuster UK Ltd; ISBN 0-7434-8943-8, as this does not relate to the topic of the article. Am I wrong? Vernon White . . . Talk 21:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures[edit]

Hello. My english is so bad for that. I've two pictures to illustrate this article. If you want. Image:Forme Joubert - porte et usine de pompage.jpg et Image:Forme_Joubert_-_porte.jpg. Ludo29 (talk) 13:44, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

They look pretty good, is that the sea end of the Normandie dry dock? Modest Genius talk 00:33, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

British Survivors?[edit]

Here it lists the raiding British as 611 strong http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Nazaire but in the Operation Chariot article it only mentions 22 escaping back to England on the small wooden boats, 168 dead and 214 POWs. so, one of those two has to be wrong. From the BBC tv documentary I believe I heard the number that made it back was the remaining 229 or so not 22 (Stickman20089 (talk) 05:01, 29 April 2008 (UTC))[reply]

Number of casualties[edit]

The english article stats that 400 Germans died during the raid, while the german version says only 42 died. Which figure is correct? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.190.163.156 (talk) 11:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

42 died during the night's fighting. Rather more died in the delayed explosions. Modest Genius talk 00:35, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that "of the 611 men who undertook the raid, 228 returned to Britain, 169 were killed and 215 became prisoners of war", but 228 plus 169 plus 215 equals 612. So at least one of these figures has to be incorrect. 212.59.34.21 (talk) 12:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The statement that 360 Germans died in the explosion alone is dubious too. This would be more than the death toll of the Beirut explosion, which was orders of magnitude larger. On the other hand, the nearest area in Beirut was mostly evacuated when the storage building blew up, not subject to a guided tour... Elias (talk) 14:15, 27 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Couraud[edit]

I have completed an article on Raymond Couraud, also know as Captain Lee, the SAS man who later was to lead Operation Gaff - the attempt to kill Erwin Rommel. The French sites I have referenced to state that Couraud was the only French national to take part in the St Nazaire Raid. Anyone have any good references in English on this? Thanks! Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 01:22, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Royal Commandos?[edit]

The second paragraph refers to "royal commandos". There is surely a word missing here such as navy or marine?


First names and the table[edit]

Composition of the raiding force, para 4: "under the command of Captain Hodgeson" and "under the command of Captain Burn"
German forces, para 2: "Harbour Commander Korvettenkapitäin Kellerman"
Small ships, para 1: "Lieutenants T Boyd and TDL Platt"

These are just five examples (I'm sure there are more), of entries that do not show the first name of the individuals concerned, (the last entry sounds like part of a cricket score-card !) There are many that do, e.g. "Lieutenant Colonel Charles Newman, Sergeant Thomas Durrant". This format is far better. And it is still used to this day - Major Joe Bloggs, Corporal Donna Smith and so on.


I notice that the ML flotilla table is laid out in a rather strange way. I was going to change it to numerical order (I had already done the text) but did not when I saw that the 7th flotilla did not enter the story until near the end; perhaps that is why it is where it is.
What do others think?

RASAM (talk) 16:39, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Location[edit]

Saint Nazaire is absolutely not in Normandie but Loire-Atlantique. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.82.21.174 (talk) 09:21, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct, but I cannot find where in the article it claims to be in Normandy. Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:24, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Normandie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.173.52 (talk) 12:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Questions on the Casualty List[edit]

Listing a dock as a "casualty" seems a bit irregular...does it not? Moreover, the listed "German" casualties apparently seem to include some unknown number of civilians lost when the British ship exploded. I would at the very least take away that someone(s) has tried to make this seem a more worthwhile British adventure than it might or might not have been. Juan Riley (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It was "worthwhile" because with the destruction of the St Nazaire dock it then meant that the Tirpitz was then forced to return to Germany for dry-docking and re-fitting when needed, which meant that she then had to transit via either the English Channel or go the long way round via the GIUK gap and face the Home Fleet, both routes being heavily defended by Britain. The extent of these defences was such that once Tirpitz returned to her home waters she then only ever steamed as far as Norway and never ventured into the Atlantic - to attack British merchant shipping - again. So that made the operation fairly "worthwhile". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.29.18.184 (talk) 10:22, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Saint-Nazaire is not in Normandie[edit]

Quote from beginning of article : "... British amphibious attack on the heavily defended Normandie dry dock at St Nazaire.... " Saint-Nazaire is located in the south of Brittany, not in Normandy. Now, some might argue that Saint-Nazaire is in "Pays-de-la-Loire" administrative "région", even though historically, it used to belong to Brittany. But in no case can it be said that Saint-Nazaire is in Normandy, which is far to the North-East of Brittany. Alain-André CLOUET — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB05:892F:2100:6961:63F:38C1:5EB0 (talk) 12:20, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The dock in question is called "Normandie". GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:21, 21 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
---because it was built to accommodate the famous French ocean liner of that name. Captain Pedant (talk) 11:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Figures don't add up[edit]

The figures given in the introduction do not add up: Of the 611 men who undertook the raid, 228 returned to Britain, 169 were killed and 215 became prisoners of war. The sum of the three figures given is 612. I don't know which figure should be changed, so I will not change anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HFS-er (talk • contribs) 19:08, 28 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The figures in Aftermath say 622 men took part, and again break it into the same figures you mention here, so the difference is ten. I suspect, but don't know, that the number of men taking part is 612 and that the other three figures are correct. Phiwum (talk) 19:51, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

British atrocities at St. nazaire[edit]

I have read in various eye witness accounts of this raid that the British were responsible for numerous atrocities. They murdered a large number of unarmed German officers, as well as French civilians. Why is there no mention of this anywhere on this site? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.29.92.247 (talk) 17:01, 16 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because the editors aren't aware of your sources. You could edit the article yourself or provide references for others to look at. Phiwum (talk) 19:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Probably due to the reason that there is no mention of this anywhere, period. You were either on some blog or RSS feed. There is no historical account of any such activity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.51.247 (talk) 04:37, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am currently listening to an audiobook: D-Day Through German Eyes. (file-4... might be chapter three, about twelve minutes in) The interviewee (a German soldier who experienced the D-Day invasion) mentions this event as one of the incidents about which he has "not changed his thinking about since the war." He used the word "atrocity" when naming it. Without arguing for a "both sides need equal hearing" argument, I would love to better understand how this was known, understand, and propagandized by Germany during the war. That would be a fascinating addition. 50.50.102.13 (talk) 07:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Was the HMS Campbeltown really a "loss"?[edit]

The HMS Campbeltown is listed among the "losses" as any warship lost in a battle would be. But wasn't the HMS Campbeltown's role more like that of a weapon rather than the "classic" role of a destroyer (or any other kind of warship)? A missile that was fired at the enemy in any battle wouldn't be named among the "losses" either, would it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.74.233 (talk) 22:30, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Memoir by one of the commandos[edit]

The book by Stuart Chant-Sempill, St. Nazaire Commando, published in 1985, is an eye-witness account of the raid by one of the commandos. It includes an appendix listing the names ranks and groupings of the hundreds of people taking part, both army and navy. Only about 60 pages describe the actual raid, and half the book is about the author's experiences as a prisoner of war. 92.24.183.87 (talk) 09:10, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of outward journey[edit]

Right now, the timeline reads like this according to the Outward journey section:

March 26, 14:00 - flotilla departs

March 26, 17:00 - news of German torpedo boats, two destroyers dispatched

March 26 (I assume, not stated otherwise), 21:00 - flotilla is 120 km from St Nazaire, two destroyers left behind

March 26 (I assume, not stated otherwise), 22:00 - submarine directs navigation

March 27, 23:30 - RAF squadrons start bombing runs

March 28, (I assume, not stated otherwise), 02:00 - convoy spotted by German U-boat)

March 28, early hours - events progress.


The way this reads, the convoy took some 27 hours to make the last 120 km of the journey, which seems absurdly slow. Either that, or at some point the article neglects to mention a date change. This probably ought to be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:AB88:1A8A:E780:A5FA:5C6A:C41F:8CF (talk) 22:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Angloyearn edits[edit]

The text added here looks like it's copied from somewhere. If you are writing normal text in your own words, you wouldn't use ellipses, for example. How much of this text was copied from that source? If it's all copied, it's excessive even if marked as a quotation. 49.198.51.54 (talk) 20:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Game made of this raid[edit]

Avalon Hill made a solo board game out of this raid. Should it be mentioned in the article? Source: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1425/raid-st-nazaire

Linkato1 (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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