Talk:Timeline of Jainism/Archive 1

Archive 1

Merger proposal

I propose that Origins of Jainism be merged into Timeline of Jainism. I think that the content in the Origins of Jainism article can easily be explained in the context of Timeline of Jainism, and the Timeline of Jainism article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Origins of Jainism will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. 069952497a^{Comments and complaints}_{Stuff I've done} 19:48, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree. A seperate article on Origins of Jainism is not required.--Indian Chronicles (talk) 07:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Done. ~~

Proto Shiva or Pashupati Seal

Dear All,

I politely ask you to see deer image encrypted on throne/seat of Proto Shiva or pashupati seal. Can you trust your eyes? if yes than please see pashupati seal and verify if it is a bull or deer? If great authors did mistake in seeing things , doesn't mean that we must continue the same mistake. Can we blind ourself if others cannot see?

look at ancient/modern images from google of jain tirthankar with symbol of deer below his seat. Moreover one can clearly see difference between bull and a deer. the pashupati seal/proto shiva in wiki article clearly shows exact figure of deer...so why is everyone confused? There are more than 1000 pictures of centuries old temples of jain tirthankar shantinath. Please see those images.

One more thing,all jain texts are not available on net like "agams", one can read on wiki that jain texts like "agams" were written 6-3rd century BCE.But nobody has put it online.

Jain Religion begins with Tirthankar Rishab the first person of Ikshwaku Vamsa...than comes surya vamsa than...raghu vamsa..than...Till date historians agree with history of two tirthankars parasnath and mahaveer (as others are yet to be confirmed). It is not true that jainism started only 6-7th century BCE.

Source : More than 10,000 ancient places, pictures of centuries old Jain tirthankar Shantinath on google with symbol of deer.Also there is not even a single picture or temple of shiva with deer on his seat. Should we stop trusting our eyes and say that pashupati seal/proto shiva has buffalo seal when one can clearly see it is a deer?

findings & concepts should always be a welcome.please look at those sources provided .

warm regards Dr Prashanna Jain Gotani (talk) 21:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

I have asked this editor to stick to offering us academic sources and explained that our guidelines say " Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject." Dougweller (talk) 12:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Pashupati seal shows seated ithyphallic figure surrounded by animals, possibly Shiva, as per common theory. Jain tirthankararas are never depicted as ithyphallic and in Hinduism also only Shiva is the only deity which is depicted as ithyphallic - that is why most of noted researchers have related seal with Shiva. Jain theories are fringe theories and they never discuss about why the seated figure is shown ityphallic because that will take away their argument that possible figure is Jain either they are fringe theory or original research not backed by third party scholars. Most of these theories are written by Jain scholars only recently.

The other apart from being ithyphallic reasons why it is related to Shiva are well known but I will repeat it - Shiva is generally depicted as sitting in yogic mudra as is seal and he is also referred to as Pashupati - the name implying Lord of Animals - that is why seal was named Pashupati seal. Jethwarp (talk) 06:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

very poor citations — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.33.147 (talk) 13:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Indus Valley Civilization and Jainism

I have deleted the following section from the article:

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Contemporary historians like Ram Prasad Chandra, Vilas Sangave, Heinrich Zimmer, John Marshall, Thomas McEvilley, P.R. Deshmukh and Mircea Eliade are of the opinion that there exists some link between the first tirthankar Rishabha and the Indus valley civilization.

Ram Prasad Chanda, who supervised Indus Valley Civilisation excavations, states:

Not only the seated deities on some of the Indus seals are in yoga posture and bear witness to the prevalence of Yoga in the Indus Valley Civilisation in that remote age, the standing deities on the seals also show Kayotsarga (a standing or sitting posture of meditation) position. The Kayotsarga posture is peculiarly Jain. It is a posture not of sitting but of standing. In the Adi Purana Book XV III, the Kayotsarga posture is described in connection with the penance of Rishabha.

Christopher Key Chappel also notes some other possible links with Jainism. Seal 420, unearthed at Mohenjodaro portrays a person with 3 or possibly 4 faces. Jain iconography frequently depicts its Tirthankaras with four faces, symbolizing their presence in all four directions. In addition, Depictions of a bull appear repeatedly in the artifacts of the Indus Valley. Richard Lannoy, Thomas McEvilley and Padmanabh Jaini have all suggested that the abundant use of the bull image in the Indus Valley civilization indicates a link with Rishabha, whose emblem is the bullock. This seal can be interpreted in many ways, and authors such as Christopher Key Chappel and Richard Lannoy support the Jain interpretation. Hindu's strongly believe that the bull is a symbol of lord Shiva's companion, which is widely known in India. Also, seals with sitting meditation positions were considered to be lord Shiva.

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The given section is seriously dubious. It claims several "historians" support the fringe theory but the sources does not mention page numbers, making it hard to verify. The source used for quote from ram prasad chandra mentions only year and page number, but no title. Also it names people like P. R. Deshmukh and Ram Prasad Chandra, who, I am not sure are notable historians. Christopher Key Chappel is a proffesor of theology, I am not sure whether he can be considered reliable for a claim related to history. --Rahul (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)