Talk:Uninhabited island

Puzzling turn of phrase in the first paragraph

The first paragraph contains the following sentence:

This society can either be utopian, based on an ingenious re-creation of society's comforts (such as can be seen in the novel Swiss Family Robinson and, in a humorous form, in the TV series Gilligan's Island) or a regeneration or even regression into savagery (a theme of William Golding's Lord of the Flies and Alex Garland's The Beach).

I'm not sure see the utility of the word "regeneration" in this context. Any objection to my changing the text to read

This society can either be utopian, based on an ingenious re-creation of society's comforts (such as can be seen in the novel Swiss Family Robinson and, in a humorous form, in the TV series Gilligan's Island) or a regression into savagery (a theme of William Golding's Lord of the Flies and Alex Garland's The Beach).

--CKA3KA (Skazka) 22:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

No objection here! Lusanaherandraton 00:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. --CKA3KA (Skazka) 18:18, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Deserted Island

Isn't it deserted island? Quadzilla99 23:23, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes this page revers to both deserted islands and desert island synonymous when they are two different terms!!!!! Dfriedeborn (talk) 14:46, 29 August 2012 (UTC)dfriedeborn

Have a look at this. It looks like "desert island" is more commonly used than "deserted island". That is why the article Deserted island redirects to Desert island in stead of the other way around. - DVdm (talk) 14:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that, though taken literally the terms would have different meanings, in practice they are used interchangeably, with "desert island" the more common term. If you look further down this page under "Requested move" you will see that this was previously discussed and most people agreed the article should be at "desert island". In Wikipedia we have to reach a consensus on things like this — not everyone will agree, but civilised discussion is necessary rather than repeatedly making changes that other people disagree with. --Deskford (talk) 15:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this article both pedantic and wrong to equate/redirect Desert island with/to Deserted island

'Desert island' is now a re-direct to deserted island. Why is this? Isn't 'desert island' in common usage?

The introduction states: "A deserted island (also known as a 'desert island') is simply any uninhabited island: the word "desert" in this context is an adjective meaning "desolate and sparsely occupied or unoccupied," and does not imply arid desert climate." However this contradicts the [a] common popular usage as defined by Collins Cobuild Dictionary (1995): "A desert island is a small tropical island, where nobody lives."

The article has a link to Merriam-Webster Online but all this leads to is one definition of the verb desert with no mention of desert island.

I propose we move the article back to 'Desert island' and explain the term broadly in its full context. -- Kleinzach 00:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see that I have struck out the above and replaced it with a. After further discussions I now understand that there is a genuine difference of opinion about the meaning of 'Desert island' which is reflected in the different dictionaries. It may be a Brit/US English distinction. In any case, the entry should presumably note the differences. -- Kleinzach 23:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (2007)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I propose moving this page to 'Desert island' (which at the moment is a re-direct to this article).

Reasons are given above (Is this article both pedantic and wrong to equate/redirect Desert island with/to Deserted island ). The present article is inaccurate, needs re-titling and a re-edit. -- Kleinzach 00:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support; The Oxford English Dictionary calls it a "desert island". And a "deserted island" would need to have been occupied once, for it to be deserted, which isn't what this article is about. Masaruemoto 05:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support Correct english--victor falk 23:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support. While I disagree with both arguments given above — there's nothing wrong with "deserted island" — desert island is vastly more common. (But why not list this as a formal move request?) Doops | talk 23:57, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I thought I had listed this formally - it's been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves - is there something else I should do? -- Kleinzach 01:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Nope. My bad. Doops | talk 14:01, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support Due to desert island being the common (or at least more common) usage, for instance desert island discs.Someone another 01:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support "Desert island" sounds delicious! How do I get there? Ewlyahoocom 07:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Take the second left after dinner. ;) Someone another 14:07, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean diner. Doops | talk 15:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move now made to Desert island

Thank you for the unanimity expressed above. I have now made the move and will change 'deserted island' to desert island' where that change is straightforward and uncontroversial.

I have amended my original comment (Is this article both pedantic and wrong to equate/redirect Desert island with/to Deserted island) above now that I understand the question better.

I am hoping we can all agree to record the different definitions of a 'desert island' in a suitably NPOV way which satisfies all opinions. Anyway please see my editing and make comments! Best. -- Kleinzach 00:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Please remember to fix double redirects when you make page moves! There are quite a few to this page when you check "What links here" on the article page. Dekimasuよ! 04:11, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

OK. I hope I have caught them now. -- Kleinzach 06:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Doops - thanks for the 'tweak' - can you name the 'several' dictionaries? At the moment we only have Merriam-Webster. I think we also need a ref. to the OED. -- Kleinzach 06:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

• I have edited the article lead to remove the claim that "desert island" is an incorrect term; the terminology section also needs to be changed. I have looked up "desert" at dictionary.com, and found the following definitions of desert as an adjective:

  of, pertaining to, or like a desert; desolate; barren (Dictionary.com Unabridged)

  Of, relating to, characteristic of, or inhabiting a desert; Barren and uninhabited; desolate (American Heritage Dictionary)

• In "desert island", it is the meaning "desolate", "uninhabited" which is implied. (Strictly speaking, "deserted island" would be one that was once occupied by people, but is not any more - a case could have been made that this is the incorrect term, though dictionary.com also defines "deserted" as "untenanted; without inhabitants" or "unfrequented; lonely".) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 13:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Largest Desert Island

Would Australia be considered the world's largest desert island? It is an island and it is also mostly desert. I realise that it would not be, according to the figurative use of the phrase, but as an island covered in desert it would be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.246.132.26 (talk) 11:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Uncharted islands

It would be interesting to discuss the possibility that islands could still remain "uncharted" in the 2000s, what with satellite mapping, and all, if there are sources that speak to the matter. -- Beland (talk) 04:25, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to change name of article to "Uninhabited islands"

I think the title "Desert island" is misleading. It does imply a barren island to most English speakers. "Uninhabited island" is much more clearly understood to mean "an island without inhabitants". Ghostofnemo (talk) 12:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

usage of verb "disinterred"

Isn't the verb "disinter" replaced with "exhume" nowadays? I'm not a native English speaker, but if the above is true I'd suggest using "exhumed" instead of "disinterred". —Preceding unsigned comment added by EMWu (talk • contribs) 01:32, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

When was it uninhabited?

I am simply commenting on something in the article, something that someone has deleted. You ignorami do know what those words mean, I am certain of that. A discussion page is to discuss what is in the article, what has been in the article, what could be in the article.

When did Uunartoq Qeqertaq become inhabited?

hopiakuta Please do sign your communiqué .~~Thank You, DonFphrnqTaub Persina. 11:25, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

I had removed your comment because A) It's incomprehensible B) you were linking an article that has been deleted so it had no bearing on this conversation C) Back off the name calling. As for your question, it never was "inhabited". ViriiK (talk) 11:40, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

This should not be called desert island

The term "desert island" is not a combination of "desert" + "island", but a single phrase with a particular connotation - compare "fast food". The Oxford English Dictionary defines "desert island" as "a remote tropical island, typically an uninhabited one". The article is about "uninhabited islands" and should be called "Uninhabited island". No one would normally refer to an island such as Gruinard Island as a desert island.

Try typing "desert island" scotland into Google and you won't find really any references despite Scotland having hundreds of them. Now compare, "desert island" fiji

Equally type "desert island" into Google images and you'll see that the general use. Macgroover (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Desert Island Discs

The BBC Radio 4 program Desert Island Discs asks well-known people what items they would take with them to a deserted island. The program has inspired many similar articles, contests, and projects, including "desert island books," "desert island movies," and so on.

From the Wikipedia page about Desert Island Discs:

Each week a distinguished guest ("castaway") is asked to choose eight pieces of music, a book and a luxury item that they would take if they were to be cast away on a desert island, whilst discussing their lives and the reasons for their choices.

Thus the bullet point at the top does not accurately describe the programme.

114.185.8.63 (talk) 01:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC)Mark

This entire article is baloney

We are educating the public to some editor's dream of what a Desert Island is. The term desert island is an island that reflects the same arid vegetation as as the desert coast it is adjacent to. Example: the small islands off the coast of Baja California, Mexico. There isn't an encyclopedia on the planet that could cite this article. The term Deserted Island is what this article should be titled. This article needs its name changed to Deserted Island, and then gone through, and all the references to a desert island should reflect its proper definition as well as an incorrect terminology of deserted island. I'll be happy to fix the article, but we must change the name first. Pocketthis (talk) 18:37, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

You can just google "desert island definition" and none of the dictionaries support what you're talking about:

a small remote tropical island - Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 2012 Digital Edition

a small tropical island with no people living on it - Macmillan Dictionary

an island, especially in a warm region, where no people live - Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus

a remote uninhabited tropical island - Oxford Dictionaries

See? It's totally irrelevant if it's phytogeographically a desert. The "desert" part there refers to a region with no population, not a modern ecoregion. And it is this usage that has been standard for centuries already; one of the dictionaries claims first use in 1607, but there are plenty of 19th century examples too. The same issues have been raised on stackexchange earlier (link) so this discussion is something that has been had already. --vuo (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

• Wrong. The stackexchange issue was closed because they couldn't find a reference. It was considered "off Topic". Go see for yourself. Also, all of the references you gave here got their definition from "us", and in most cases, the correct "deserted" word was "inserted". I'm not surprised that you and others have confused this definition, as it has been confused for a century. This issue has been argued and like all other incorrect definitions, it has its reasons of origin. Common sense would tell you that you wouldn't call an empty island off the coast of Hawaii a Desert Island. It's a "tropical Island", and if it's uninhabited, it is a deserted island. This article is actually comical in my opinion. I truly believe that wikipedia has contributed to, and fortified this misnomer. My two cents, and $200,000 in college tuition. Thanks - Pocketthis (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

I don't care how stackexchange handles it, they have their own policies. What is important is how multiple dictionaries are cited, and the reasoning for why it's called "desert" island (desert meaning uninhabited, not just dry) is given. For one more source, see this for example. Also, Robinson Crusoe uses the term "desert island" but clearly the island in question is mountainous and forested. That demonstrates the original meaning of "desert" in "desert island" - it's not even uninhabited, just remote. --vuo (talk) 22:32, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

• You are the one that pointed me to stackexchange. Now you read your own advice, and don't agree with it. We are the reference for the other publications and web dictionaries that call an uninhibited island, a desert island. We have convinced the world about an improper use of the term. I promise you that "lazy" English is to blame for the original misnomer. Deserted is the term, not desert, which means exactly what it is: arid. I'm really sorry to see the public misinformed on this poor English we are perpetrating. I even went to the library and tried to find it in Encyclopedia Britannica. They don't even have an article called "Desert Island". I've done my bit, now what will be will be. Thanks - Pocketthis (talk) 23:00, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

These are not "web dictionaries", they're transcripts of print dictionaries that have existed way before the Internet. Wikipedia didn't invent this and could not have. Oxford English Dictionary for example finds an example from 1607 transcribed here. --vuo (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• Your reference link just solidifies my point. The island referred to was inhabited with 'wild men'. They were Desert Islands because they were of desert terrain. Please come up with something better than that if you wish to convince me. Don't bother...honestly, this is one point of fact that I am sure I am correct about. Happy editing, and nice try...:-)→Pocketthis (talk) 15:39, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
• You reverted my edit after I reverted yours. Only difference is, my edit made sense, and yours asks a question. I am happy to leave this article to the delusional. I have stated my case. If no one with any common sense wants to back me...have your fairy-tale. Shame on you for deceiving our readers. - Pocketthis (talk) 16:28, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The "wild men" in e.g. Topsell appears to be actually a description of baboons. But this is Wikipedia and claims must be based on reliable sources, not "common sense". Let's see what OED exactly says:

Etymology: < Old French desert (12th cent. in Littré), < ecclesiastical Latin dēsertum (Vulgate, etc.), absol. use of neuter of dēsertus adjective, abandoned, deserted, left waste: see desert adj.

1. An uninhabited and uncultivated tract of country; a wilderness:

a. now conceived as a desolate, barren region, waterless and treeless, and with but scanty growth of herbage;—e.g. the Desert of Sahara, Desert of the Wanderings, etc.

b. formerly applied more widely to any wild, uninhabited region, including forest-land. Obs.

2. transf. and fig.

3. abstractly. Desert or deserted condition; desolation. Obs.

desert island n. an uninhabited, or seemingly uninhabited, and remote island; also attrib. and fig., esp. (of equipment, cultural objects, or behaviour) suited to the social isolation and limited baggage allowance of a castaway on a desert island.

-

The analysis of this would be that desert is essentially used as a synonym for desolate. And desolateness and loneliness is a social construct, not a phytogeographical one.

By the way, an additional clue is that desert island doesn't translate to aavikkosaari in Finnish, but autiosaari, or literally "desolate island". --vuo (talk) 16:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• OK then, lets change the article name to Desolate Island, and we'll put this to bed. Pocketthis (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a moot court, I can't accept or not accept that. I can only point out facts: "desert island" is an established phrase, "desolate island" isn't entrenched English usage. Trying to come up with a new term would be original research. --vuo (talk) 23:09, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• Desert Island may be an established term, but it certainly doesn't mean what this baloney article says it does. Happy editing! Pocketthis (talk) 23:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Deserted vs Desert

• I wanted to tell you "VOU", that I have read your work last night, and have much respect for your rhetoric here on wikipedia. So, please don't take my adversarial position here as any disrespect on my part; nothing could be further from the truth. After massive research well into the wee hours of the morning, I have not yet found a definitive desert island reference to agree with you. I see where this subject has been debated since the 50's when Hollywood used the term, and the questions began. Also, I went to that Blackwell reference guide you pointed me to about Robinson Crusoe, and it was an editor like you and I that was using desert island to describe Crusoe's island. However, not in the book itself. I then googled the book references, and all I could find were summaries by other editors about the book. Some using desert, some using deserted. Example: We can also sense Crusoe’s impulse toward self-awareness in the fact that he teaches his parrot to say the words, “Poor Robin Crusoe. . . . Where have you been?” This sort of self-examining thought is natural for anyone alone on a desert island, but it is given a strange intensity when we recall that Crusoe has spent months teaching the bird to say it back to him. Crusoe teaches nature itself to voice his own self-awareness. That comes from: http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/crusoe/themes.html I had a college professor of whom's biggest pet peeve was "desert/deserted"..lol. So I always found myself through life correcting folks when I presumed they used it incorrectly. When I bumped into this article yesterday, I was beside myself, and reading back my rhetoric today, I had to chuckle at my neuroses and my approach to the subject. I still disagree with the validity of the terminology, but must admit that it seems to be used as often now as deserted, even if its origins were used to describe an actual stark sand island in literature, and then was adapted incorrectly to refer to tropical, or deserted islands, only further research will tell. Instead of getting upset about the existence of this article, I should be challenged by it. If I dig up anything interesting to tell you, I will meet you back here. Respectfully, Pocketthis (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

• Merriam Webster: noun des·ert \ˈde-zərt\

   1
   a :  arid land with usually sparse vegetation; especially :  such land having a very warm climate and receiving less than 25 centimeters (10 inches) of sporadic rainfall annually b :  an area of water apparently devoid of life
   2
   archaic :  a wild uninhabited and uncultivated tract
   3
   :  a desolate or forbidding area <lost in a desert of doubt>

• In following up on the Hollywood theory, I found an interesting article here:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DesertedIsland In summary after reading that "desolate" or forbidding area is the number 3 definition of desert, I think you could keep the article name, but show deserted as one of the descriptions. I'll do that, and for now I will live with the article name. Thanks Pocketthis (talk) 17:46, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Arid Populated Desert Islands

• Here is something that got me thinking about more reasons this article is named incorrectly: The island called “Más a Tierra” was renamed to Robinson Crusoe Island in 1966 and is no longer uninhabited. The island has a population of about 600 people and contains modern day conveniences such a satellite internet connection and an airstrip. Real uninhabited islands can still be found however and will continue to inspire writers and movie makers. Here is my final point: If there is any island in the world that has a arid desert climate, along with desert vegetation, and if this desert island has any residents at all, then your entire theory goes out the window. Since we all know that there are desert islands with populations on them, the term desert island cannot mean uninhabited, and thus, this article is named incorrectly. Without going to the far reaches of the planet as references, I can give you two obvious ones to use as examples of desert islands that are inhabited: The northwest corner of the big island of Hawaii has an arid temperature, and the vegetation to match. (surprised even me). Also, many of the small arid desert islands off the coast of Baja have population. So, there you have it. Not all desert islands are deserted, but all deserted islands are uninhabited or they wouldn't be called deserted islands. http://www.lovebigisland.com/hawaii-blog/climate-zones-big-island/ I now have proven my point. I know you'll do the right thing. - Pocketthis (talk) 20:57, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
• Also, I'll be just as happy with the title changed to Uninhabited islands and then we could access terminology to discuss Desert, and Deserted uses in fact, and in literature. Actually I may like the idea of Uninhabited Islands even better than Deserted Islands. We can redirect both searches to Uninhabited Islands, and we will know we are doing the right thing. - Pocketthis (talk) 21:25, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Class=C

This article had {{WikiProject Islands|C}} and it now has {{WikiProject Islands|class=C}}, a correction made by me, which is actually needed by hundreds or thousands of articles.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 21:00, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Dthomsen8: Why was the unnamed parameter a problem? It looks like it was working fine. As far as I can tell, your edit had no effect on the rendered page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:48, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Jonesey95:It was working fine on this talk page, and it was correct in the categories set by the talk page, but with {{WikiProject Islands|C}} the article page says it is unassessed. There are thousands of talk pages with a letter as the class, with the article page said to be unassessed. There many more talk pages with {{WikiProject Islands|quality=C}} which are wrong, too. AWB experts should be fixing both.--Dthomsen8 (talk) 22:36, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jonesey95:

Thanks, but I don't really understand what you are describing. Maybe there is a discussion that you could point to that explains the reasons for this kind of edit. The {{WikiProject Islands}} template appears to use |class= and |1= identically, so I don't see how they could be different. If you come across another talk page that needs this fix, feel free to ping me before you implement the fix so that I can see how the corresponding article changes when you apply the fix. Maybe the template can be modified to fix this strange situation. It's not a big deal, I have just seen too many people end up in hot water for making cosmetic changes to pages. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:09, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

For some reason the |1= does not work the same way with |class=. There are also many common mistakes like |clas= or |clss= that I see very often. I used to fix those. We could try to run a bot and fix many. -- Magioladitis (talk) 06:50, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

A demonstration of what "does not work the same way" means would be helpful. I do not see any difference between |C and |class=C. I'm looking right now at Talk:Liancourt Rocks, which has {WikiProject Islands|C}, is in the category "C-Class Islands articles", and which shows "This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale." Before you change anything at that article, what is wrong with it? What should be there that is not there?

Also, if |C (or |B or whatever) is not correct, should the documentation for the template be changed? Should parameter 1 be deprecated so that it can be removed? Where is a link to a discussion of this issue? – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Jonesey95 I ve seen pages using the 1 parameter in the class-undefined tracking category. I am not at home right now in order to search for an active example. Maybe the issue has been fixed. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

California Channel Islands

I suggest inclusion of some (not all) of the Channel Islands off the southern coast of California. User:DERoss 17:40, 2 September 2018 (PDT) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.165.167 (talk)

Desert Island Discs

This article could mention how the concept of a desert island has inspired the radio programme Desert Island Discs, especially since Desert Island Discs is in the "See also" section. Vorbee (talk) 08:00, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Largest Uninhabited Islands

Should we make a separate page that's a list of the largest desert islands by area? I've been expanding the one on this article but a long list might be more fitting on its own page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Icantfindanunusedusernamewhyme (talk • contribs) 20:54, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

What Why History

"Desert islands have been a profitable refuge for self-imposed castaways since medieval times, who have encountered and overcome deadly obstacles in the practice of survival skills." No citation, no explanation, why is this history? Being profitable is likely a very recent reality TV thing.161.97.25.17 (talk) 16:36, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Short description

Hello @TBN 08: That is too long per WP:SDLENGTH. Do you have a shorter suggestion? Invasive Spices (talk) 20:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Adumbrativus (talk) 08:27, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

---

Desert island → Uninhabited island – Less ambiguous name * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Support seems like a fairly common naming convention for highly technical or specific subjects. Orchastrattor (talk) 05:24, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support Much more sensible. ArvindPalaskar (talk) 14:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Support. Not “less ambiguous” but “more general”. But, Suggest instead Small islands. The occasional habitation, even if long term, typically due to a staffed station, does not change the defining nature of the topic. I suggest that the defining nature of these islands is “no fresh water”, which is kind of the intent of “desert” for them, and is regardless of human habitation. I think that a small island must have vegetation, otherwise it is just a rock (an Islet). SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

• Support, although discouraging that humans consider themselves the only life forms that "inhabit" (the same as the common term "empty lot", which are usually plots of land teeming with life and growth). Support because not all islands are solely deserts, if any. Just look at the beautiful opening image of the article, probably not a speck of sand on it. Most people probably do not read "desert island" as "deserted", but as deserts of sand and, if lucky, a seashell and a girl Friday. See Wikipedia's desert article ("A desert is a barren area of landscape where little precipitation occurs and, consequently, living conditions are hostile for plant and animal life.") Randy Kryn (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.