Template:Did you know nominations/1st Canadian Comedy Awards
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- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by — Maile (talk) 01:27, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
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1st Canadian Comedy Awards, Canadian Comedy Awards, List of Canadian comedians, Peameal bacon, Poutine, Made in Canada
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Created/expanded by Reidgreg (talk). Self-nominated at 23:21, 7 June 2019 (UTC).
For List of Canadian comedians, I agree with Yoninah's edits, it was too long for a lead and works much better with sections. Being very general, it was intended to show how the realities of the country (culture, audiences, climate, industry) shape its comedians, and what distinguishes Canadian comedians from those of other countries. I'll try to write a lead and organize it in that vein. I'm not sure anything stands out as hook-worthy. I have a couple sources which say something along the lines of "Canada produces more [notable] comedians per capita than any other country in the world", which I feel is broadly interesting, but they aren't high-quality sources for census-type information like that, and I didn't include it in the article as I felt it was likely to be challenged. (Census information I did find grouped comedians with actors, so I couldn't resolve it as a distinct profession.) If we can't think of a good hook, I'm fine with dropping it, but please keep the QPQ credit for the review. – Reidgreg (talk) 12:50, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
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- ALT2B:
... that Canada's comedians, along with its singers and musicians, are considered to be the country's cultural representatives?"Source: "working-class individuals [...] idea of Canada's cultural best is more likely to include the Canadian comedians who have frequented American television shows such as Saturday Night Live (Dan Akroyd, Mike Myers) or rock groups such as Rush [...] or more recently internationally famous performers such as Shania Twain or Celine Dion" Anthropologica (source offline). It's not in the article yet, but does that sound hook-worthy? Oh, the "more likely" part in the source is comparing what is broadly popular to what is traditionally chosen from the fine arts by the elite. Feel free to suggest changes. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2B:
- I think the hook is good. Are you going to create a lead paragraph too? I'm not very familiar with list articles but you should probably summarize the major points there. I'll take a look at this once this is done. Overall, this is ripe for promotion. MX (✉ • ✎) 17:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I've added a lead paragraph, expanded a little and organized the sections a bit. The one layout problem might be that the A, B, C are L2 sections when they might logically fit better as L3 sections. Also I should probably put the TOC higher up. (I took a look at a few other list articles and List of countries by Human Development Index has quite a bit of prose; 1st Academy Awards is a featured list, though it looks to me like it qualifies as an article. At the featured level, List of Canadian Victoria Cross recipients and List of inductees of Canada's Walk of Fame have tables with citations for every person; I just didn't have time to do that for the 450+ on this list. I suppose that this is technically more of a set index article.) Will take a look for pictures on Commons. – Reidgreg (talk) 20:07, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Good job on the expansion, Reidgreg! The presentation looks much better now and the lead reads well. I suggest writing the hook this way:
Wayne and Shuster with Ed Sullivan
- ALT2c:
... that Canadians consider their comedians (Wayne and Shuster pictured), along with their singers and musicians, to be the country's cultural representatives? Offline hook ref AGF and cited inline. Rest of my review above. ALT2c good to go. Yoninah (talk) 20:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I like ALT2c. Fixed the TOC and section headers, and added a bunch of images, all marked with free licenses. I tried to use performance images, and then added a few others where there were gaps. I tried to balance the columns and images as best I could, hopefully it doesn't look too bad at different screen widths. I might go back to crop a photo so it'll display better, but I'm pretty happy with it. – Reidgreg (talk) 23:04, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Reidgreg: nice job on the images. Confirming that all images are freely licensed. What do you think about adding the Wayne and Schuster image to this nomination? From a design point of view, the images do look a bit too big. Are they default 200px? Yoninah (talk) 09:49, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- I set the long skinny picture of Katherine Ryan to 150px. The others are all 'thumb's, which I believe sets the width according to the user preferences and browser platform. The Wayne & Shuster picture certainly fits the hook, and I was really pleased to find it. Have added it to ALT2c, above. I used an ampersand to keep the caption short; are the caption and the (pictured) note sufficient? Also cropped the picture of Candy Palmater in the article. – Reidgreg (talk) 12:04, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- ALT2c:
- Note to promoter: Please use this DYK credit line with the ALT2c hook:
- List of Canadian comedians – Reidgreg (give) (tag) – View nom subpage
- Yoninah (talk) 20:42, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
Returned from prep. Several alts have been proposed at WT:DYK#Prep 3. Let's get the hook into shape and approved before promotion. It would be great to run this with the Wayne and Shuster image, but the hook has to connect to it. Pinging @Reidgreg:. Yoninah (talk) 17:13, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Going to list the hooks here:
- ALT0: ...
that many working-class Canadians consider their comedians, along with their singers and musicians, to be the country's cultural representatives?- ... that Canadians popularly consider their cultural best to include comedians?
- ALT1:
... that Canadian comedians use individual expression to reinforce collective values? - ALT2:
... that to be social acceptable, some Canadian comedians link comedic discontent to group survival? - ALT3:
... that in Canada, comedians face taboos regarding immodesty, impoliteness, and social criticism? - ALT4: ... that the dangers of Canada's
vast and sparsely populatedclimate have given rise to dark and fatalistic humour on the part of Canadian comedians?
- ALT0: ...
- I have a quote from a comedy historian that "[Canadian] comedians have long been a source of national pride" but I was trying to keep the article short and generalized and was avoiding quotes. There were also quotes that "Canada produces more notable comedians per capita than any other country" but I would not consider the sources reliable for that kind of data and was unable to find census data to back it up. (Although comparing with the lists for other countries, Canada certainly has more Wikipedia articles on comedians per capita.)
- I feel the Wayne & Shuster picture worked when the hook was about Canada's cultural representatives to the world. I'm not so sure about the other hooks. I suppose if we expanded something like The Canadian Conspiracy and did a hook about Canadian comedians taking over the US, the picture could fit that. Or we could just save the picture for the Wayne & Shuster articles. – Reidgreg (talk) 19:45, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- Going to list the hooks here:
- @Reidgreg: it does seem to me that you wrote this article very sketchily; perhaps you were just busy with all the other articles you were nominating. If you were to expand any of the sections with examples, rather than generalities, I think you could come up with better hooks. Yoninah (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
- My feeling was that the prose should be just enough to introduce the list, and what distinguishes Canadian comedians from other comedians. I didn't want to go down the path of examples – although I could see doing that in a history section after writing some missing articles for the early history. I'm not really interested in further expanding the article at this time.
- I did some more reading about cultural representatives and representative culture and found that there are differing, and sometimes conflicting, definitions. In line with my conception is the following definition:
The vicarious actions undertaken by individual, exceptional persons either for, on behalf of, or acting as proxy for the other members of the group in question or society (or even the whole human race).
UC Press Canadians identify with their sense of humour but cannot always express it; comedians are the exceptional individuals with artistic talent who can express the cultural ideas and ideals of humour, and represent this aspect of the culture – becoming the group's cultural representatives, eh? Does that make sense? The article touches on this in a few places and the lead summarizes it. – Reidgreg (talk) 22:40, 1 August 2019 (UTC) - @Yoninah: are any of the hooks interesting and passable enough? If not, is there something specific that should be done to move this forward? – Reidgreg (talk) 14:06, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
- @Reidgreg: it does seem to me that you wrote this article very sketchily; perhaps you were just busy with all the other articles you were nominating. If you were to expand any of the sections with examples, rather than generalities, I think you could come up with better hooks. Yoninah (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
( A new review is needed to check the new hooks. @Yoninah: Would it be okay for you to please take another look at the ones that Reidgreg suggested? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
- I still like ALT4 out of all of them. The first two alts are a little scholarly for a hook. ALT3 is good, but does not have an inline cite.
So I'll go ahead and approve ALT4, which is an offline source but cited inline. Rest of review above. ALT4 good to go.Yoninah (talk) 22:39, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
- Whoops, I can't approve it because I wrote it :). Narutolovehinata5 can you approve ALT4? Or Reidgreg, do you prefer ALT3, in which case you'll need an inline cite there. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 22:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi @Reidgreg: @Yoninah: @Narutolovehinata5: I'm going to suggest a slight revision to ALT4, as the article doesn't say that Canada's climate did give rise to dark and fatalistic humour, it says that kind of humour is "generally attributed" to the climate of the vast and often sparsely populated country. So, what about:
- ALT4a ... that the dark and fatalistic humour of Canadian comedians has been attributed to the dangers of Canada's climate and geography?
- RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:25, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm fine with that. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
- We need someone to approve this, and someone to promote it, ASAP. @RebeccaGreen: all you did was turn the hook around; you can approve it. Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
OK, if that's the case, I'm happy to approve ALT4a, AGF for the offline source. RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:49, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
- Sure, I'm fine with that. – Reidgreg (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
- I still like ALT4 out of all of them. The first two alts are a little scholarly for a hook. ALT3 is good, but does not have an inline cite.
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