Template:Did you know nominations/B. J. Habibie Bridge
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 20:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)
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B. J. Habibie Bridge
- ... that the B. J. Habibie Bridge in Dili, East Timor, is named after a former deputy of the Indonesian President who instigated the Indonesian invasion and occupation of East Timor? Source: "Habibie’s bridge is brochure-perfect brilliant, still with its sails up from the [inauguration] ceremony, and no one seems to find it odd that a shiny new symbol of growing Timor-Leste is named for the anti-independence confidante of the dictator responsible for the invasion." (Raynor, Sophie (6 September 2019). "A Postcard from Dili". Global Hobo.) [As the relevant Wikipedia articles confirm, B. J. Habibie was Vice President (in 1998) to Suharto, who was President when Indonesia invaded (1975) and occupied (1975-1999) East Timor]
Created by Bahnfrend (talk). Self-nominated at 09:56, 26 January 2022 (UTC).
Full review to follow, but wasn't Habibie a former president of Indonesia? Shouldn't that be clarified in the hook? In addition, I took a quick look at the article and I would suggest that the article be given a copyedit, as the tone of the article doesn't seem to be very neutrally-worded but is instead somewhat praiseful. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:18, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by "praiseful". The article is intended to be a factual account of the history and technical details of a concrete road bridge. The comments the article makes about what the people of Timor think of Habibie are factual and sourced, and the article includes a counterviewpoint by a non-Timorese author. What I, the creator of the article, think of Habibie is irrelevant and not stated. As for the hook, to add any further detail to it would, I think, make it too long. I'd be happy to suggest an alternative hook. Bahnfrend (talk) 15:03, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- Some of the wording that I thought didn't sound right included
For most East Timorese, Habibie will always be remembered and respected as the originator of the referendum on 30 August 1999 that was East Timor's opportunity to resume its independence.
andvideo vision of Gusmão's emotional interactions with Habibie during his July visit to the hospital circulated on social media.
As for the hook itself, the article does state in a block quote that Habibie was the confidant of Suharto at the time of the Indonesian invasion of East Timor, but the lede instead specifies Habibie's later role as President of Indonesia. Perhaps the hook should be reworded somehow to reflect both positions. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:33, 31 January 2022 (UTC)- @Narutolovehinata5: The first of your quotes is sourced to a cited source. The second quote is a factual (and in my view, accurate and NPOV) description of Gusmão's behaviour as depicted in the video. If you're still dubious about that one, you might want to watch the video yourself - the reason the video went viral is that Gusmão pretty much 'lost the plot' when interacting with Habibie. As for the hook, Habibie was Vice President when Suharto resigned, and that's why he became president. So the hook is really no different from saying that Lyndon Johnson was deputy to John F. Kennedy, or that Gerald Ford was deputy to Richard Nixon. Yes, both men were Presidents as well, but the key point made by the hook is that the president-vice president connection between Suharto and Habibie makes the decision to name an East Timorese bridge after the latter somewhat strange - a bit like naming a bridge in Cuba after Johnson, or a bridge in Vietnam after Ford (or a bridge in Nicaragua after George HW Bush, deputy to Ronald Reagan). Hence the bemused comment by the Australian journalist quoted in the article: "no one seems to find it odd ..." Bahnfrend (talk) 14:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- I just found the wording strange given that the hook emphasizes Habibie's role as Suharto's deputy when the article's lede emphasizes his role as a future Indonesian president and doesn't even mention the deputy part until much later into the article. The hook is technically accurate but it doesn't really match up with the weight of the article. While I would still recommend mentioning Habibie's future role in the hook, admittedly doing so without making the hook complicated or clunky would be difficult. I actually think the hook itself is good, it's just the context behind it that feels off to me. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: That's a fair point. I think the solution to the problem is to expand the article rather than modify the hook. I have therefore lengthened the lede, and added two paragraphs near the end of the "History" section. That should be sufficient to match the hook with the article. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you. I will do the full review once a QPQ has been done. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: That's a fair point. I think the solution to the problem is to expand the article rather than modify the hook. I have therefore lengthened the lede, and added two paragraphs near the end of the "History" section. That should be sufficient to match the hook with the article. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:19, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- I just found the wording strange given that the hook emphasizes Habibie's role as Suharto's deputy when the article's lede emphasizes his role as a future Indonesian president and doesn't even mention the deputy part until much later into the article. The hook is technically accurate but it doesn't really match up with the weight of the article. While I would still recommend mentioning Habibie's future role in the hook, admittedly doing so without making the hook complicated or clunky would be difficult. I actually think the hook itself is good, it's just the context behind it that feels off to me. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:13, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: The first of your quotes is sourced to a cited source. The second quote is a factual (and in my view, accurate and NPOV) description of Gusmão's behaviour as depicted in the video. If you're still dubious about that one, you might want to watch the video yourself - the reason the video went viral is that Gusmão pretty much 'lost the plot' when interacting with Habibie. As for the hook, Habibie was Vice President when Suharto resigned, and that's why he became president. So the hook is really no different from saying that Lyndon Johnson was deputy to John F. Kennedy, or that Gerald Ford was deputy to Richard Nixon. Yes, both men were Presidents as well, but the key point made by the hook is that the president-vice president connection between Suharto and Habibie makes the decision to name an East Timorese bridge after the latter somewhat strange - a bit like naming a bridge in Cuba after Johnson, or a bridge in Vietnam after Ford (or a bridge in Nicaragua after George HW Bush, deputy to Ronald Reagan). Hence the bemused comment by the Australian journalist quoted in the article: "no one seems to find it odd ..." Bahnfrend (talk) 14:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Bahnfrend: The DYK guidelines recommend that QPQs be provided within a week or two of the nomination being started. As that time has passed, please provide one as soon as possible. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:42, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: Sorry about the delay. QPQ now done. Bahnfrend (talk) 11:28, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the edits. The article largely looks good on my end and I didn't find any close paraphrasing. A QPQ has been done and the hook is mentioned inline and cited. I think the only thing that still needs to be done is a copyedit for grammar. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
- @Narutolovehinata5: I did a quick copyedit for grammar and phrasing. BuySomeApples (talk) 18:49, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the copyedit. As the copyedit also addressed my earlier wording concerns there no longer appear to be any issues with the article. The nomination is now good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:03, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
