Template:Did you know nominations/Lorraine 12 D

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Lorraine 12 D[edit]

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The Lorraine 12D engine
The Lorraine 12D engine
  • ... that the Lorraine 12D (pictured) was put into production before the design was finalized?
    • ALT1:... that the Lorraine 12D originally had a horsepower of 350 at the time it was first manufactured, but only 50 were produced before they managed to improve it to 400 horsepower?
  • Comment: Just made this, looks good and rather long

Created/expanded by Username Needed (talk). Self-nominated at 12:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC).

  • Review: These aren’t bad facts. My only issue is there is no source for the hook and only one source for the article. Jhenderson 777 16:41, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
  • ... that the Lorraine 12D was put into production before the design was finalized?(source: [1] page 9 (in french) Could somebody verify that please. [Username Needed] 14:03, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
Note. I might need help on reviewing. I am not familiar with the source being reliable or not. Also I don’t know what it says since it’s in French. I tried googling this particular engine to help find sources but I didn’t find much. Jhenderson 777 23:42, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Petebutt may be able to help, he's done some work with this article recently. [Username Needed] 11:06, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
There isn't much available WYSIWYG I'm afraid. The engine was developed rapidly at the start of its production, that much is clear!--Petebutt (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
  • (Not a full review) The article is presently ineligible because some non-lead paragraphs do not have inline citations, per D2 of the DYK Supplementary guidelines. The Variants section also has no sources. Also, as per the above, none of the hook content is sourced within the article. North America1000 11:08, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Fixed the variants section, and propose a new, sourced hook. ALT2:... that the Lorraine 12D was the first french engine to reach 400 horsepower?(source: [2] page 9 (in french) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Username Needed (talk • contribs) 13:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Full review needed now that additional sourcing has been provided and a new hook as well. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:58, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
Just a drive-by comment, but I don't find ALT2 to be interesting. ALT0 probably remains the best option if the source mentioned above could be confirmed as being reliable. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Nominator has not edited since March 14 and has not been able to address issues with ALT0. If there is no response in a week I will mark this for closure. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:10, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
  • No, I'm sorry, Narutolovehinata5—they have in good faith provided an ALT2 to replace ALT0, and a drive-by comment is not a review. This nomination still has not been given a full review, and frankly needs one. Until that happens, it doesn't matter how actively the nominator is editing or not editing, so long as they return to address any issues once the review has been given. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Full review needed, including of the hooks. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:07, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

The article was new enough and long enough at the time of the nomination. For the most part it is adequately sourced: both sources are not in English so they are accepted in good faith. QPQ check is down at the moment but this appears to be the nominator's first nomination (at least from what I can tell on his talk page) so no QPQ is needed. Concerns have been raised on the reliability of the French source, and while I took a look at it and it seemed professional, I'd rather leave this analysis to a French speaker or an expert on this sort of thing. As I mentioned above, ALT2 (and by extension ALT1) do not feel like they'd be interesting to a broad audience, so I have struck them. This will be good to go once the nominator returns and/or the issues with the ALT0 source are resolved. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:43, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

  • I'm here, just not very active and not checking very often. [Username Needed] 17:53, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Probably needs a second opinion on the source in question, it is the only remaining issue. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:08, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
The source is a document hosted on the website https://www.hydroretro.net/, a website about aviation history published by Pierre Pécastaingts, who appears to be private enthusiast. The document does not list its own sources. Gérard Hartmann, who wrote the source document, is a regular contributor to the site. I found M. Hartmann mentioned in one news article, which described him as "spécialiste de l’histoire de l’aviation" (an expert in aviation history) but I cannot find any biography that might explain more about his qualifications. He does have books on this topic published with traditional (that is, not vanity or self) publishers: I found two with Les Éditions de l'Officine (one received a nitpicky critical review from an aviation website) and one book published by Jaca Book, a traditional publisher at the University of Milan. Could someone who knows if this passes Wikipedia reliable source requirements please weigh in; I hope this is enough information to decide.
Re the hook fact, "put into production before the design was finalized", the source says: "Le Lorraine 12 D est homologué en janvier 1917 à la puissance de 350 ch. Par la suite, en 1918, ce moteur développe jusqu’à 400 ch, ce qui fait de ce moteur le plus puissant moteur français de sontemps." (roughly: the Lorraine 12 D was certified/approved in January 1917 as a 350 horsepower engine, and was subsequently expanded to 400 horsepower in 1918, which made it the most powerful French engine of its time.) 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:16, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Comment: One of the paragraphs in the "Design and development" section has no citation. Flibirigit (talk) 02:10, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I am adopting this nomination to help move it forward. I will do some housecleaning on the article, and may propose new hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 16:44, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I have struck ALT0 since it is not mentioned in the article. I will propose something else when I am finished housecleaning. Flibirigit (talk) 17:02, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
I will need a day or two to rewrite the body. I have discovered more text that is not supported in the cited sources. Flibirigit (talk) 23:15, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
I apologize that real life is rather busy lately. I will try to get to this by May 31. Flibirigit (talk) 02:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
No. I will propose new hooks when I am ready. Flibirigit (talk) 11:47, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
ALT3: ... the Lorraine 12D (pictured) was the most powerful French airplane engine during World War I? Page 9, in French
ALT4: ... the Lorraine 12D (pictured) was developed for French bombers during World War I, and later produced by the Italian company Isotta Fraschini? Page 9, in French

new review requested, since the article has been completely rewritten. Flibirigit (talk) 17:56, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I suppose ALT3 is almost ready to go, the issue is that in the lede, "Lorraine 12Da variant was the..." lacks the word "the" before Lorraine, and that according to the article, it was actually a variant that was the most powerful rather than the 12D in general. A revision may be in order here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:29, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I have struck ALT3 and ALT4 due to the oversight. Here are a couple new hooks. Flibirigit (talk) 14:42, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
ALT5: ... a variant of the Lorraine 12D (pictured) was the most powerful French airplane engine during World War I? Page 9, in French
ALT6: ... the Lorraine 12D (pictured) series of airplane engines were developed for bombers in the French Navy during World War I, and were later produced by the Italian company Isotta Fraschini? Page 9, in French
I think we should be good to go with ALT5; I'm striking ALT6 as I don't think it would appeal much to those who aren't history buffs, and in any case ALT5 would likely attract the broadest audience. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:59, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
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