Template:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 17:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

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Sarah Jane Baker

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Sarah Jane Baker in 2020
Sarah Jane Baker in 2020

Moved to mainspace by GRuban (talk). Self-nominated at 14:28, 11 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Sarah Jane Baker; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

  • Comment: Not a review but the hook is jarring. Bruxton (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
This is a well written and meticulously cited article that accurately reflects the RS. The author has clearly taken care to write as balanced of an article as possible on a controversial figure. The hook is jarring, but is verified to the cited Reuters article. Given that the hook fact is something widely reported that has brought Baker to the attention of the broader public (and essentially given her a platform to speak as a transgender activist), I see no reason not to use the hook as written. Hook length and hook fact verified. Article is new enough and long enough and within compliance of wiki policies.4meter4 (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I have pulled this nomination from prep after disagreement at WT:DYK. Please discuss issues there. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:49, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
OK, so the issues at WT:DYK were twofold: User:BeanieFan considered the hook disgusting and confusing, and User:VaticidalProphet considered the hook both shocking and not particularly central, which seem somewhat similar, while User:Lightburst had a whole slew of objections all of which only had in common their point that since Baker was a bad person, she should not be on DYK. I don't think we can help the second by definition, but we can address the hook (which was among Lightburst's slew of objections) so hopefully that will suffice. Give me a bit to come up with multiple alternative hooks, will remove the Doing... template when done. There are certainly plenty of remarkable facts about her we can use. --GRuban (talk) 13:43, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT1: "... that Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) who says she learned to read and write in prison, published two books about life there?" Source: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-lgbt-prisoners-trfn-idUSKBN20Y3H0 I'm slightly uncomfortable with the "says" - if true, it would certainly be a remarkable fact, and it has been reported in more than just Reuters (for example, https://www.swlondoner.co.uk/news/12042021-uks-longest-serving-transgender-prisoner-to-run-for-richmond-park-mp states it without the "says" caveat) but there is some chance the subject could be an unreliable narrator.
  • ALT2: "... that when Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) was denied gender affirming care in prison, she attempted it herself with a razor blade?" Massaging the hook that was disliked at DYKT, to be less jarring, confusing, and shocking (by um ... removing the ... ahem ... so to speak ...)
  • ALT3: "... that when Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) was released after 30 years, she was the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner?" Again Reuters source. Less controversial in every way, but also less "hooky", almost boring.
  • ALT4: "... that Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) is an author, an artist, a political candidate, and formerly a violent felon, and the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner?" The kitchen sink hook! WP:DYKHOOKBLP says we're not supposed to unduly emphasize negative things in the hook, but I've been accused of glazing over the subject's significant crimes, so possibly listing it among her other interesting points may not be undue.
  • ALT5: "... that Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) is an author, an artist, a political candidate, and formerly the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner?" removes the most negative bit from the above.
  • ALT6: "... that Sarah Jane Baker (pictured) is an activist, an author, an artist, a political candidate, and formerly a violent felon, and the UK's longest serving transgender prisoner?" An even more kitchen-sinky hook than 4/5, in response to RoySmith's belief, below, that a DYK hook should completely describe the subject.
@Bruxton, Ritchie333, Lightburst, AirshipJungleman29, Vaticidalprophet, Theleekycauldron, BeanieFan11, and RoySmith: That should do it. I think I prefer ALT4, then ALT2, but will accept any that y'all agree on. Look well, o wolves! --GRuban (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I do think ALT2 is better and more encyclopedic than any of the other hooks here, but I think I find myself on the minority on this, so I'll refrain from using any ticks or other bugs. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:10, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Ya got b..., er ... great moral fortitude, Leeky. --GRuban (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
I do not think we should be promoting this person at all on the main page. If there is consensus to promote I prefer ALT4 or ALT1. Lightburst (talk) 21:44, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Lightburst has again not specified what promotion the article contains. I prefer AL2 or ALT4. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:34, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
@AirshipJungleman29: I must not be clear when I say I do not think we should be promoting this person. Putting this person on the front page of the English Wikipedia is promoting the person. The person is selling books and a cause, and may run for office again. We are promoting them when we put their cause and image on the main page. I hope that was clearer. Lightburst (talk) 00:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
  • I did some searching in news outlets for "Sarah Jane Baker". I ignored explicitly LGBT or feminist outlets. I equally ignored explicitly Christian outlets. I also ignored outlets which WP:RSN rated as unreliable, and outlets that just plain looked dodgy. That didn't leave much. But of what it did leave (BBC, Evening Standard, GB News, Fox News, and The Independent) all introduce Baker as a "transgender activist" in the first sentence or headline. The European Conservative and the Guardian just call her (with slightly different wording) "a speaker at the Trans Pride event". Yahoo! News calls her (sigh) "A topless trans woman", with a video. The Southwark News uses "trans woman". iNews says, "longest-serving transgender prisoner". Given that's how she's described in WP:RS, it seems like we would be deliberately filtering (whitewashing?) things to call her "an author, an artist, a political candidate". RoySmith (talk) 23:46, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
@RoySmith: Thanks for the research. Good points. Lightburst (talk) 00:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Not sure what those good points are as a DYK hook is not supposed to give a balanced description of the subject, rather just give a reason to read the article about it, in fact often an unusual one. It's not in any way supposed to be "the way most sources refer to the subject". For example, a hook running just today says "... that indirect evidence suggests that cataract surgery could have been performed as early as in ancient Egypt?" and I guarantee, without even looking at any sources, that 99.9% of sources about "cataract surgery" will not even mention ancient Egypt. But, I guess, the "kitchen sink" hook, which you seem to be unhappy about, and seems to already say transgender, can also say activist. ALT6 added as an option if you prefer; I don't object to it, just don't think it's an improvement over ALT4/5. I would object to a hook that says both "transgender activist" and "longest serving transgender prisoner", that's just redundant. --GRuban (talk) 01:15, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
Regarding in response to RoySmith's belief, below, that a DYK hook should completely describe the subject, no that's not what I believe. You don't have to completely describe the subject, but if the majority of WP:RS describe the subject primarially as a "transgender activist", then IMHO, that's what we should lead with as well. RoySmith (talk) 01:55, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
OK. Please spell out your preferred hook, ALT7. --GRuban (talk) 02:00, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I don't have a preferred hook, I just wanted to make the point I made above. RoySmith (talk) 02:09, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I strongly disagree that ALT3 is boring, at least descriptively rather than prescriptively -- hooks about subjects whose notability is in part or whole from legal escapades, that are about those escapades, do markedly better than most alternatives. I also think we quite direly bury the lead to focus on things like "the subject is an author" that are both of disinterest to most RSes and fairly misrepresentative of 99% of the article's content. Yes, many subjects should have hooks that misrepresent them (the cataract surgery example). This is less true for BLPs. It is markedly less true for extremely complex BLPs. Vaticidalprophet 06:17, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
To confirm - do you prefer ALT3? Or are you suggesting a different hook that doesn't "bury the lead"? What do you consider the lead to be? --GRuban (talk) 13:01, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Approving Alt3 for promotion. While I personally think all of the alternative hooks except for Alt1 are promotable, the concerns raised here and on the DYK talk page over the presentation of the subject indicate a consensus to not emphasize the subject's role as an author or activist over their criminal and incarceration history, or to use a hook which some might find overly violent/graphic. Alt3 fulfills those requirements. I also think the hook is interesting. For that reason, I am being WP:BOLD and approving ALT3 as the hook with the greatest support.
As for Lightburst's moral objection over featuring the subject on the main page, I can not see a valid policy rationale for acquiescing to that position. As pointed out on the DYK talk page, there have been many recent DYK hooks that featured articles that were equally (or more so depending on one's POV) objectionable. I would imagine that if we were to cull through the In the News, FA, and DYK histories of past main pages we could come up with a lengthy list of objectionable subjects that have been featured in the past. As noted elsewhere, articles on mass shootings, murders, and other violent events have all been featured on the main page in the past. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, including its main page, and I see no reason why we should start censoring now for this topic. Additionally, transphobic comments made on the DYK talk page make the attempt to censor here concerning.4meter4 (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
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@4meter4: Your comment above is a PA and I request that you strike it. The definition of Transphobic is having or showing a dislike of or strong prejudice against transgender people. I said women do not have testicles and for thousands of years that was accepted biology. The person was a fully in tact male when they raped another male. It was a confusing hook which was objected to by several other editors. I do not accept that you can insult another volunteer with a label like transphobe for mentioning basic biology. Lightburst (talk) 21:52, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
@Lightburst Your comment at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Sarah Jane Baker and Nomination at Prep 2 was problematic as explained to you by theleekycauldron. I won't rehash that here, or get into a discussion with you about it because its off topic. All I will say is I agree with that other editor in their assessment of your statement. I only raised the issue here because of your request to censor the article from DYK, which should be viewed in context to your other comments at that discussion.4meter4 (talk) 23:00, 4 October 2023 (UTC
It is inaccurate, and it is a personal attack. Wikipedia:AVOIDYOU is policy. Lightburst (talk) 23:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
I’m not sure exactly what you want me to say. Whether you agree or not or intended to or not, the remark you made demonstrated a certain degree of prejudice against pre-op trans women which has an impact here on how your request for censorship is evaluated. It’s not a personal attack. It’s a statement of fact. Purposeful refusal of using gender pronouns of the expressed gender identity of the subject is listed as a transphobic behavior by the government of California via the Canada Human Rights Trust (https://www.gov.nl.ca/education/files/k12_safeandcaring_pdf_transphobic_cisnormative_bullying_harassment.pdf) This group includes pre-op trans women and also applies to how we speak and write about the lives of trans women before their transition. (see policy at MOS:GENDERID) Put simply a trans woman is always referred to as she and never he, and as a woman and not a man even when writing about or referring to a point of time in their lives while they were male presenting. Doing otherwise is a transphobic behavior. 4meter4 (talk) 00:33, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
I objected to this rapist, kidnapper, torturer, who should still be in prison, getting on the front page in the image slot. I also objected to the provocative, gratuitous and confusing hook. You resorted to name calling and you now refer me to the government of California which apparently now mandates speech? There was no need for your personal attack and pontificating. I discussed the nomination and you discussed me and claim to know my thoughts. I will consider you persona non grata. I agree with @Vaticidalprophet: who selected the ALT3. Shame on you and TLC for personal attacks. Lightburst (talk) 03:22, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
I referred you to the guidelines used for defining transphobic behavior used by California as by their employees including educators. I have not made comments about your thoughts at all. I only made a comment about your behavior and actual speech at Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 195#Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Sarah Jane Baker and Nomination at Prep 2 which clearly demonstrated the refusal of the use of female pronouns towards Sarah Jane Baker before her transition. And the claim that “women can’t have genitals” (an attack on pre-op trans women). If you read about transphobia in the pdf above you can see how those comments are transphobic behavior as defined by that document. Addressing issues of bias from someone trying to censor Wikipedia from their bias is hardly a violation of our guidelines on personal attacks. If need be we can take this to WP:ANI but I would hope that you would recognize that I am being sincere and calm. I am attempting to be kind in patiently explaining to you why what you said is transphobic and is not ok. There is a learning curve here if this is a topic you are not familiar with. I wish you well. Best.4meter4 (talk) 04:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
Jump in the lake. I do not wish you well. Lightburst (talk) 04:30, 5 October 2023 (UTC) Struck my frustrated response. Lightburst (talk) 14:13, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
@Lightburst: One from the late great Tommy Cooper, on that note!  :) Serial 09:46, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
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  • Please not original hook or ALT2, don't want to encourage people dangerously using razor blades on themselves! ALT3 seems OK, not boring. starship.paint (RUN) 14:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
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