Template:Did you know nominations/Sutton heritage mosaic

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Sutton Heritage Mosaic[edit]

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  • ... that if you haven't got time to visit them, you can see all of Sutton's heritage sites on the Sutton heritage mosaic (pictured), one of the largest examples of wall art in Britain?

Created by A P Monblat (talk). Self nominated at 21:53, 24 August 2014 (UTC).

  • The article creation date and length are OK. Assuming good faith on one source, the other two are not plagiarized. The image is free and used in the article. QPQ was done. The only problem is the hook: you write about "all of Sutton`s heritage sites", in the article are mentioned the "main heritage sites", in the source there is no mention of sites, but only of "heritage buildings" plus other features. I think that here some more consistency with the source is needed. Alex2006 (talk) 17:27, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • You have a point. In retrospect the word "sites" was not the best choice of description. I've amended the article slightly in the lead, and propose a revised hook at ALT1. A P Monblat (talk) 19:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
  • ALT1... that if you haven't got time to experience it first hand, you can see many aspects of Sutton's heritage and local history on the Sutton heritage mosaic (pictured), one of the largest examples of wall art in Britain?
  • Now is perfect, except the length (218 characters): you have to cut something, and go below 200, sorry... Alex2006 (talk) 14:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • How about ALT2 ... that you can see many aspects of Sutton's heritage and local history on the Sutton Heritage Mosaic (pictured), one of the largest examples of wall art in Britain? A P Monblat (talk) 16:04, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Very good! Good to go for ALT2, thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 07:08, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Footnotes 3, 4, and 5 are personal websites. There is an unsourced section. I think that should be taken care of.--Carabinieri (talk) 04:08, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I have dealt with all these issues now. A P Monblat (talk) 02:22, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Although the original review says the QPQ was done, it is not listed on this nomination template, and it has to be linked to here so it can be checked. A P Monblat, can you please list your quid pro quo review here (with the link to that review's template)? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:29, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
  • In saying QPQ was done, I assume the original reviewer meant the matter had been looked into: I am a Did You Know newby, having only three DYK nominations to my name. A P Monblat (talk) 09:47, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Got it, thanks. Usually it's noted as something like "QPQ not required because nominator does not yet have five DYKs". I'll let Carabinieri continue reviewing, then. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:00, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
  • No more objections on my part.--Carabinieri (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Needs a reviewer to give this a new approval. Thanks. Striking original and ALT1 hooks due to issues raised. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
  • , I doubted noteability first, it looks like late GDR propaganda as well, but it is reasonale sourced. Pic is on commons. Lets go Serten (talk) 16:25, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
  • This page has only two sources. One is a press release from the Borough of Sutton and the other a book about Sutton. Surely there are other mentions of the mosaic in guide books or print/online articles? Yoninah (talk) 18:48, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, there must be one or two other sources, and I will look for them now. A P Monblat (talk) 18:58, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Images may be on commons, but there is concern that they may have been uploaded in breach of copyright. Murals have specific rulesSovalValtos (talk) 19:10, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I think this image may indeed be a problem, as SovalValtos notes. The rules are discussed on Commons here, and say in part, The freedom provided by Section 62 does not apply to graphic works - such as a mural or poster - even if they are permanently located in a public place. Since this mosaic is called a mural in the article, I would imagine that it doesn't qualify under freedom of panorama and is therefore copyright, but I'm going to ping Crisco 1492 to get his take on whether this image is okay for DYK (and thus for Commons). BlueMoonset (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with Blue; images focused on the mural are copyvios, as they are not allowed under FOP. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I have added more sources. Regarding the images, I'd be interested in the thoughts of 7&6=thirteen (☎). A P Monblat (talk) 23:31, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I like the image, which is low resolution and askew. It is really part of a larger panorama of the building, and of course on the main page it would be tiny. I don't know anything about British copyright law (the locus of the work) so I have no opinion about that. Hope that helps. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 23:55, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I think 7&6=thirteen (☎) makes an important point. The mural is part of a wider panorama of the building, which includes the mosaic, but is not focused on it as such. The same goes for the other image in the article, which, in addition to the building itself, includes a church spire in the panorama. I can't therefore imagine that those two images would be caught by the rule. A P Monblat (talk) 00:28, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

It's also public art. I do know that there is a difference between U.S. and British copyright laws. I think they materially differ on this specific point — but again I know only that there is a difference, not exactly what the difference is. Not something that I've been involved in much. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 01:44, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Under the circumstances, I think the only way we'll get a definitive ruling on this that will satisfy everyone is to nominate it for deletion on Commons due to possible copyright issues, and see whether it survives. If it does, then it's fine to use; if not, then it isn't. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:48, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Looks like Crisco started the process after he posted here. This DYK nomination should not be approved until the deletion process has been completed. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:52, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
Note: I noticed that the article was renamed to use caps for each word as a title (and also using italics because of that); I've fixed it here, too. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:06, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • @BlueMoonset: I was the one who capitalized the name, but I don't understand why it's italicized and I have no idea how to remove the italics from the page title (I tried, but it didn't work). This is not a work of art, just a generic name. Yoninah (talk) 12:25, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Note that we can continue the DYK process if we remove the image. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:57, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I have removed the image from the hook, so that the DYK process can continue. I have crossed out ALT2, as this is no longer being used. We are agreed on Serten's suggestion:

A P Monblat (talk) 16:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

For safeties sake it might be as well to check all the images for copy right; information plaque/board and other views of mural as well. It would be embarrassing if it were posted on DYK and then images had to be removed.SovalValtos (talk) 17:40, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • I am ready to pass this nomination as soon as the copyright issues are cleared up. The article is new enough, long enough, adequately referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. ALT2 hook is AGF and cited inline. No QPQ needed for page creator with less than 5 DYK nominations. The only lingering problem I see is the matter of the italicized title. This is not the name of an official work of art; nor can I even find sources calling it thus (e.g. I found sources under "Sutton Heritage Mural"). Could you please un-italicize the title? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 18:15, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • The reason it has gone into italics is that I used an "Artwork" infobox. This italicization is automatic, I believe. It would therefore have to be put into another type of infobox to get rid of the italics. If someone could suggest a suitable infobox, I'd be happy to transfer the content to it. A P Monblat (talk) 20:20, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Thank you, the infobox details are in the new template now. A P Monblat (talk) 21:47, 23 October 2014 (UTC)
  • Great. Now awaiting the verdict on the images... Yoninah (talk) 21:51, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

This nom was pulled from the main page after 5 hours – see discussion at Sutton Heritage Mosaic pulled from main page. I am going to be bold and reopen this nomination in the hopes that it will appear on the main page for the full 12 hours. It is a good article by a relatively new to DYK page creator, and the only thing wrong with the nomination was the hook (ALT3), which made sense to some editors and no sense to others. Let's find a hook we can agree on and move this up through the usual channels. Yoninah (talk) 16:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  • ALT4: ... that the Sutton heritage mosaic, one of the largest examples of wall art in Britain, consists of over 100,000 pieces? Yoninah (talk) 23:54, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone have access to ref 3? I can't seem to check this because the url doesn't work for me. Fuebaey (talk) 02:30, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
There seems to be a glitch with that website more generally. It's a Govt website, so hopefully it will be rectified soon. A P Monblat (talk) 02:55, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @Fuebaey: I have no trouble viewing it. Here's what it says:

Plaque reveals Sutton's rich history 29.11.11

The story behind one of Sutton town centre's key monuments is told in a new plaque, unveiled in Trinity Square.

Sutton's rich history has been proudly displayed in a mosaic opposite Waterstone's, since 1994, but few have known the stories behind each of the 19 intricate panels.

The new plaque explains what each section of mosaic means, and the history of the people and places it depicts.

The centre panel shows Henry VIII's Nonsuch Palace. Around this panel are heraldic beasts from the coats of arms of the local families of Carew, Gaynesford and Lumley – names which are still familiar to local people.

Other images show the borough's heritage buildings - including Honeywood Museum, the old cottage in Cheam, Carshalton Church, Whitehall and The Cock Inn - and past industries, including a Wandle mill, used in the lavender and agricultural trade; the first iron railway, which ran along the River Wandle and the Hannibal Aircraft, synonymous with the former Croydon Airport, which stood on the site of the Roundshaw Estate.

Cllr Graham Tope, Executive Member for Community Safety, Leisure and Libraries, said: "This beautiful mosaic has been a much-loved feature of our High Street for the past 17 years, but unless you're a historian the chances are you would not know what all of the intricate panels mean.

"I hope this plaque will encourage people to take a look, and for those already familiar with the mosaic, I hope it will help them to appreciate it even more."

The mosaic, by artists Rob Turner and Gary Drostle, was commissioned by Sutton Council and funded by Appledown Properties in 1994. It measures 9m x 5m, making it one of the largest pieces of wall art in the country.

Thanks, it was down for me at the time. I don't have access to the book (ref 5) so I can't check that, but I'm willing to AGF on it. ALT4 is good to go on Yoninah's review. Fuebaey (talk) 04:57, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
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