Template talk:Harvard citation no brackets/Archive 1

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What's the point

What exactly is the point of this template? What does it have to do with Harvard citation if it's not paranthetical, and why on earth does anyone need a template for such a simple sequence? And for our purposes it isn't even necessary to specify the year unless you're using more than one source from the same author. In most cases that brings the amount of variables down to two. In the cases where one isn't specifying a page, it's down to one (the name of the author). It seems to me that this only adds a few extra characters of code (and the template itself) with absolutely no substantial benefit to either readers or editors.

Peter Isotalo 09:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the point of this template is to link to later references automatically. --Falcorian (talk) 23:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
This is used for bundled citations and shortened footnotes. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Resolved

hard spaces between p. or pp. and page numbers

{{editprotected}}

Please see Tony1's comment here: this template's documentation (and derivatives) specifies using   when the "loc" parameter is used, but doesn't use the hard spaces when the "p=" or "pp=" parameters are used.

Change would be: 

 {{#if:{{{loc|}}}
   |, {{{loc|}}}
   |{{#if:{{{p|}}}
      |, p. {{{p|}}}
      |{{#if:{{{pp|}}}
         |, pp. {{{pp|}}}
       }}
    }}

to 

 {{#if:{{{loc|}}}
   |, {{{loc|}}}
   |{{#if:{{{p|}}}
      |, p. {{{p|}}}
      |{{#if:{{{pp|}}}
         |, pp. {{{pp|}}}
       }}
    }}

{{harv}} and {{harvtxt}} have been done already, and the harvcol set don't seem to need the change. Thanks. Carre (talk) 09:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done --slakr\ talk / 13:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

{{Documentation}} template

{{editprotected}}

Please replace {{/doc}} with {{Documentation}} in noinclude tag. Currently, it is confusing whether the documentation is subpaged. --219.165.188.51 (talk) 15:04, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

done. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Resolved

No redirect to references

I am beginning to implement Harvnb on the History of Northwestern University but I can't get the citation note to redirect to the book listed under references. The example I am using is Pridmore 2000, reference 64. Madcoverboy (talk) 16:01, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Even though this is old, I checked the article and it's fine. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Period?

Shouldn't the page number(s) be followed by a period? If you use one type of punctuation (comma) between authorname + year and page number specification, it seems inconsistent to finish the reference without a period. LarRan (talk) 08:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, is anybody contemplating this valid question? 95.209.46.212 (talk) 18:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
It's not a sentence, but a sentence fragment. Hence, no period is required. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
Resolved

. I think. Everyone seems happy. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Tutorial needed

There needs to be a tutorial page on precisely how to use this, otherwise it is extremely hard to figure out from scratch how to successfully get the "Notes" cites to link to each source in the "References" section, without asking someone more experienced for help. Cirt (talk) 00:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There is one... uh... Wikipedia:Harvard citation template examples. Written by yours truly. If it doesn't answer your question, I'll amend it so that it does... Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 00:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Ah, quite. That should be linked more prominently in more places. :) -- Cirt (talk) 00:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Resolved
The documentation is now very thorough. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Faulty dashes

 Done Can someone please replace all occurrences of 25-26 with 25–26 (dash, not hyphen), per WP:DASH. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I tried, but the template doesn't have any. The dashes are typed in the individual pages where the template is used. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Fixed. Though the documentation page isn't edit-protected. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:42, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Jbmurray (and I've now found Template:Harvard citation no brackets/doc, no idea what CBM was referring to, since I wanted the example fixed, not each page where templates are used :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I looked at the template code line by line for hyphens. The doc page is not protected, so you don't need to use editprotected requests for it. The main point of having doc subpages is to allow them to be edited by anyone even when the template is protected, so I didn't associate your request with the doc page. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
And my problem was that when I looked at the source code for the template, I couldn't find a doc page ... I only found it by following Jbmurray's contribs. Ah, well, sorry for so much bandwidth over a couple of dashes :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Question

I have an article that cites three books, by the same authors, in the same year. How do I use this template so that it correctly links to each individual book? Can I include the title of the book in the harvnb citation, or is there another variable used to perform this function? Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

As Template:Harv says, "For authors who have published more than one work in the same year, the standard way to differentiate such works is to put a lowercase letter after the year (e.g. year=2006a and year=2006b)." I added this sentence to the documentation of this template. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 13:10, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Resolved

"page" and "pages"

{{editprotected}} Can the template be altered so that |page= and |pages= function identically to |p= and |pp respectively? It's a chore switching between citation styles where different parameters for the same thing fail to function. Thanks, Skomorokh 14:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

 Done. Can you check it's working as intended? Thanks, — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Trotsky 2009, p. 46, Trotsky 2009, pp. 5923–25
  • Trotsky (2009). Braaaains.
Yup, thanks very much! Skomorokh 21:11, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Generated ref

Just pointing out that the template doesn't seem to do quite what the documentation shows at present with regard to spaces and the year. Using this: {{Harvnb |Brubakk|Neuman|2003| pp=358–60 }} generates a link to #CITEREFBrubakkNeuman2003 whereas {{Harvnb |Brubakk|Neuman| 2003 | pp=358–60 }} generates the link #CITEREFBrubakkNeuman_2003. This isn't a complaint, as the underscore may be preferred by some, but I thought it worth documenting. --RexxS (talk) 23:24, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

(See #Spaces, below) ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:50, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Dutch version - hyperlink not working

In the Dutch version of this template, the hyperlink to the 'References' section does not seem to work as it does in English. Am I doing something wrong, or is there something missing in the template? Wiki-uk (talk) 11:46, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

See Template:Harvard citation documentation#Wikilink to citation does not work. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Resolved
, although there may be issues in the Dutch wiki, which is outside our purview. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

We should never render invalid HTML

A change to the cite-family templates is being discussed at Template talk:Citation/core #We should never render invalid HTML. This change would affect pages that use Harvard templates to refer to citations generated by cite-family templates. Further comments there are welcome. Eubulides (talk) 19:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Help with using template

Hello, I am working on a draft at User:Erik/The Fountain, and I cannot seem to get the linking feature of this template to work. I checked back at another article, Interpretations of Fight Club, where it worked before, and now it does not. Was there a change of which I am not aware? Erik (talk | contribs | wt:film) 13:34, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Yup. Can't find a link to the discussion now, but AFAIK, you need to add |ref=harv to all the {{cite book}} templates.  Skomorokh, barbarian  13:48, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah, thank you! It worked for my sub-page. If no one minds, I will update the documentation with this detail. Seems kind of important. Erik (talk | contribs | wt:film) 13:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea.  Skomorokh, barbarian  14:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
Resolved

Hyperlink does not work

Somehow I don't manage to make hyperlink (to Ogawa, Seki & Yamazaki 2009) in List of National Treasures of Japan (sculptures) work. bamse (talk) 11:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

I've fixed it for you. Wizard191 (talk) 13:58, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. The problem was, that I did not specify the authors with "last/first", correct? bamse (talk) 14:15, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
There were three things; the first was the first/last thing. The second is that books need the "year" argument used, not the "date" argument. The third is that the {{citation}} template needed to be used instead of the {{cite book}} template. The cite book template can be used, but an extra argument needs to be passed, and to be honest I'm not sure what it is, so I always use the citation template. Wizard191 (talk) 14:24, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Quite tricky. bamse (talk) 21:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Resolved

Print version

When printed in books, this template pollutes the index of books. This is because there is a section link somewhere in that template (aka [[#CITEREF|Foobar]]), and the index in generated using the links of articles. Would it be possible to create a version of this template without the section link? Aka, one that displays Smith 2006, p.25, rather than Smith 2006, p.25?

I can upload the code at {{Harvard citation no brackets/Print}} once it's written (or anyone else with user account creation rights, as these pages are blacklisted for the moment). Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 05:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

Help Request

Resolved
 – Redrose64 (talk) 11:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I am trying to use the {{harvnb}} template over at the Angraecum sesquipedale page and I have been running into a problem for one particular citation namely # 37 under the "Related Species" section. This particular citation is to a journal paper that has 6 authors. I listed only 4 like the template says to do, but when I do that I found out that the link highlighting the author name doesn't link to the main reference below. So I then added |Ref=1| to the citation and the reference below. This worked so that the two linked together properly, but then it no longer displayed the page number on the footnote. How do I solve this problem? Any help would be appreciated.Chhe (talk) 03:19, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done The problems were as follows:
(i) in {{cite journal}}, the |year= parameter must contain the year. If you have a month as well, that must go into the separate |month= parameter. So, |month=March |year=2008 works, but |year=March 2008 does not.
(ii) in {{harvnb}}, the page number parameter name is case-sensitive; that is, |p=914 works, but |P=914 does not. It's best to follow the documentation regarding the capitalisation of parameter names; relatively few templates tolerate variant capitalisations.
See my changes. --Redrose64 (talk) 11:47, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Bombay

Resolved
 – --Redrose64 (talk) 16:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

As you see on Wikipedia:Help_desk#No_such_anchor:_CITEREF... many people are using your template erroneously and I have no idea of what kind of fix he is telling people to do, and I am just a innocent bystander and I hope you will fix the page(s) affected. Bye. Jidanni (talk) 11:23, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem does not lie with {{harvnb}}, but stems from a modification carried out to {{cite book}} and similar templates during September 2009. Previously, they linked together automatically; since then, it has been necessary to manually add the |ref=harv parameter to each instance of {{cite book}} which is to be linked from a {{harvnb}}.
Considering Mumbai specifically: down near the bottom of the article, in the References section, there are a lot of {{cite book}} templates. In order for a {{harvnb}} to link to one of these, the |ref=harv parameter must be added to the relevant {{cite book}}. For example, I have carried out this edit so that the references {{harvnb|Dwivedi|Mehrotra|2001|p=28}} and {{harvnb|Chittar|1973|p=6}} will link. If you want me to fix the rest, please say so, but it looks like it could take me some time, because I've got other commitments. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:01, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for finding this out. There are probably many such problems on this one page, and many other such pages with such problems. I think you might need a bot to comb all of Wikipedia(s). Do please fix everything eventually, as it is all over my head. All I know is one day I clicked on this page I was browsing and nothing happened. Jidanni (talk) 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

See also http://article.gmane.org/gmane.science.linguistics.wikipedia.technical/47891 , http://svick.aspweb.cz/ . Jidanni (talk) 16:36, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done I've fixed up all of them, with just one exception. Please see Talk:Mumbai#Referencing and continue the discussion there. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Template help

Can anybody help me out in creating a reference template based on OSCOLA? This is the Oxford Standard Citation of Legal Authorities, and is predominantly used in UK journals, in English language European law journals, and increasingly generally by the Oxford University Press. Do message me if you know how to do these things, and I'd be very grateful. Wikidea 16:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps you should ask over at WT:CITE, where general issues about citation format are discussed. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:43, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
Resolved

Request one more possibility

We are force to write :

“According to Nation (Nation 2007a, p. 5), Perseus killed the King.”

with a duplication of Nation which is not need.
For redaction need, it is need to add the possibility such as :

“According to Nation (2007a, p5), Perseus killed the King.”
  • Nation (2007a), "Who killed the King ?"
Code Result
{{harvnb|Nation|2007a|p=5}} 2007a, p5

Accordingly, please add this new Year-only-reflink possibility. Yug (talk) 11:40, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

You can do this by using the |Ref= parameter in conjunction with {{harvid}} as follows:
{{harvnb|2007a|p=5|Ref={{harvid|Nation|2007a}}}}
ie
"According to Nation (2007a, p. 5), Perseus killed the King."
--Redrose64 (talk) 21:08, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I add this to the example table thanks :] Yug (talk) 09:29, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

{{harvtxt}} was designed to handle these cases, e.g. 
According to {{harvtxt|Nation|2007a|p=5}}, Perseus killed the King.
which renders as "According to Nation (2007a, p. 5), Perseus killed the King.” ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 11:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
If you don't like the way this looks and you still want to make your own link, I think it's less convoluted to just use 
[[#{{harvid|Nation|2007a}}|2007a]], p. 5
rather than 
([[{{harvnb|2007|p=5||Ref={{harvid|Nation|2007a}} }} ]])
---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 11:06, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
Resolved

Ref=none

{{edit protected}} Could the template be edited to accept a lowercase parameter, i.e., "ref=none"? Currently, the parameter will not work unless it is capitalized, i.e., "Ref=none". I can edit the page, but I don't want to accidentally break the template. Thank you, -- Black Falcon (talk) 16:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

That seems to be sensible.  Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:42, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. -- Black Falcon (talk) 15:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

No Family name

Sorry to ask again, but that's to help. I really think a simpler "no family name" harvnb template is need. Such:

Wished-code Result
{{harvnb|Nation|2007a|p=5|name=no}} 2007a, p5
Current-code Result
{{harvnb|2007a|p=5|Ref={{harvid|Nation|2007a}}}} 2007a, p5

The key idea is to have a short parameter to add to the already know harvnb, rather than force to use one more template. As previously said, the purpose is to have a convenient way to create sentences such:

"According to Nation (2007a, p. 5), Perseus killed the King."

"|name=no" and my wished code is just a first idea, but shorter it is: better it is for readability when editing. Yug (talk) 18:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

There may be from one to four surnames, plus an optional year, all of which are in unnamed (positional) parameters. How would you determine which was the year, and so should be displayed, and not one of the years, which shouldn't? --Redrose64 (talk) 16:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Your example can be rendered simply with {{Harvtxt}}, e.g.

"According to Nation (2007a, p. 5), Perseus killed the King."
Current-code Result
{{harvtxt|Nation|2007a|p=5}} Nation (2007a, p. 5)

More complicated examples can be rendered with {{Harvs}}. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:24, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

(I think. At least we have documented this issue a little better at Template:Harvard citation documentation. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Merging documentation

{{edit protected}} I would like to merge the documentation for this template with {{harv}} (see Template talk:Harvard citation#Documentation).

The last few lines of this template should be changed from 

}}<noinclude>
{{documentation}}
</noinclude>

to 

}}<noinclude>
{{documentation|Template:Harvard citation/doc}}
</noinclude>

Thanks. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Good idea. The problem, however, is that the interwikis will then not be correct, because each /doc pages contains the interwiki links for its own template. The solution may be to create another template, e.g. {{Harvard citation documentation}}, which is then transcluded onto both /doc pages. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Okay I have now done this. I hope you're okay with this approach. If not, or if I've missed any, please let me know! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:09, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Did you do all 6 templates? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 18:06, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
I see that you did. Thanks again. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 18:10, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
{{Merge}}, {{Merge from}} and {{Merge to}} seem to cope perfectly well with three sets of interwikis on the same doc page. See Template:Merge/doc#Notes. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
Nifty. But I foresee problems, not for you or me because we are familiar with parser functions and includeonlys. But a lot of editors who add interwikis are from smaller wikis and do not spend much time here. I suspect it would confuse the hell out of them! — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:51, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
...as might putting the interwikis on redirect pages... --Redrose64 (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Although the "interwikis" issue is still open. Should we document this somewhere? Or just help fix it whenever it happens? This is a fairly rare occurrence. ----

Spaces

{{edit protected}} See this discussion. This template also needs to remove spaces. Please replace: 

     -->|CITEREF{{{1|}}}{{{2|}}}{{{3|}}}{{{4|}}}{{{5|}}}<!--

with 

     -->|CITEREF{{#if:||{{{1|}}}}}{{#if:||{{{2|}}}}}{{#if:||{{{3|}}}}}{{#if:||{{{4|}}}}}{{#if:||{{{5|}}}}}<!--

Thanks. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:30, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:00, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

letters instead of numbers

I use the harvnb template for most of my articles, but I noticed today that it displays letters instead of numbers for the inline citations, even though the endnotes themselves are still numbered. See Citadel of Damascus for an example. Has anything changed in the template? -- Zoeperkoe (talk) 14:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

No; the numbers (or letters) are actually generated from the <ref>...</ref> tags, so will have affected all inline refs, not just the {{harvnb}} ones. Such a change will have been in the MediaWiki software.
I saw the same thing for a short time, but has now returned to normal. A similar thread was recently raised at WP:VPT#Reference formatting change?. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:15, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
Resolved
---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:03, 1 April 2011 (UTC)


huh? matches no known reference formatting scheme

This line seems off-kilter: |{{{1|}}} et al. {{{5|}}}

It renders this {{Harvnb|Fisher|Cohen Silver|Chinsky|Goff|Klar|1990|p=142}} as "Fisher et al. Klar, p. 142" which matches no known reference formatting scheme (note the position of Klar in the output). Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 01:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It can be made to work, if the harnb lists only 4 authors, but the ref template has 5, they can link if formatted properly.. but the funky display if harvnb has 5 authors should be fixed, and the workaround documented... Ling.Nut (talk—WP:3IAR) 01:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

See above, no? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 11:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Error

{{editprotected}}

This template can't seem to handle the following:

{{harvnb|Drozda|Wick|Benedict|Veilleux|Society of Manufacturing Engineers|Bakerjian|1983|p=13-34}}

which produces:

Drozda et al. 1983, p. 13-34

Is there a limit on the number of authors that can be listed? Or is it that "society of manufacturing engineers" is too many words? In either case the limits either need to be documented, or the template fixed. I'm also assuming that the code produced to link the {{citation}} template is also broken, so that should be looked at as well. Thanks. Wizard191 (talk) 23:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The documentation indicates that for more than three authors, "Author 1 et al" is used. I'm guessing "Society of Manufacturing Engineers" is displaying as well because the author fields are for single words (i.e. surnames) only. Skomorokh 23:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm assuming you are referring to the examples given, because that's the only thing I can find talking about "et al". In the example, four authors are listed, but nowhere does it say that's the maximum. I don't care if it converts the output to "et al.", but I want it to properly process the year. As for making the fields work with only single words, that's rediculous, because people have surnames with multiple words, like Vincent van Gogh. Can we get this straightened out? Wizard191 (talk) 00:17, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
After tinkering around a little, it looks like you're correct that the single-word surname hypothesis is wrong, and that when five or more authors are specified, the template does not print the date, but rather "First author et al. Fifth author, page". For example,
{{Harvnb|First|Second|Third|Fourth|Fifth|Sixth|Seventh|Eight|Ninth|2000|p=34}}
appears as
First et al. Fifth, p. 34
This probably has to do with the second line of the template code, "|{{#if:{{{5|}}}". I'm sure the limit could be increased from four authors, or an "|et al=yes" option included so that only the first author would need to be listed for works with more than three authors. Skomorokh 00:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Is anyone going to fix this? Wizard191 (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I can easily make it support 5 authors if that would help. Please could you be more specific about what you want done. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:08, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Well my usage, shown above, has six authors, so I need to to be able to handle at least 6, but maybe you might make it handle more? Either way, as long as it handles six, that works for me. Thanks! Wizard191 (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) If you wish to propose a change to the citation template, please do so in Wikipedia talk:Citing sources. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  05:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Editprotected

{{editprotected}}

Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations), "et al." should be in italics. Thanks, Dabomb87 (talk) 16:14, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Note that if this change is done, it should also be done at all of the other Harvard cite templates. --- RockMFR 02:43, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (abbreviations)#i.e. and e.g. shows disagreement regarding this, and Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing says to not use italics. --- RockMFR 02:57, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing is an essay. "i.e." and "e.g." are common latin terms. If you look at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations)#Widely used abbreviations in Wikipedia, the MOS allows for i.e and e.g. to be italicized or unitalicized, but does not extend this guideline to et al. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Adding quote parameter?

I left a message at Template talk:Harvard citations#.7B.7B.7Bquote.7D.7D.7D. rʨanaɢ talk/contribs 14:10, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

No longer functions

The template now no longer works; specifically, it doesn't link back to the original reference in which the CITEREF parameter is included. Can someone please repair this malfunction? --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 18:44, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

I'm not experiencing problems; in which article are you having difficulty; and which reference? --Redrose64 (talk) 19:27, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
The problem is occuring with all the inline references that use the {{Harvnb}} template at Queen's Privy Council for Canada, Governor General of Canada, Orders, decorations, and medals of Canada, Victoria Cross (Canada), Monarchy of Canada, and on and on. They all functioned just fine before. It seems likely that someone changed this template recently and not it doesn't work on many articles. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 13:02, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I've only looked at a few of these: but it seems to me that in each case the basic problem does not lie with {{harvnb}} but that the full citation (whether that be a {{cite book}}, {{cite web}}, {{cite document}} or whatever) is lacking the vital parameter |ref=harv. The requirement for this is not a recent change: it goes back at least eighteen months, I think to September 2009. See Template:Harvard citation no brackets#Wikilink to citation does not work item 2.1.1.3 --Redrose64 (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
How come, then, they worked perfectly fine up until, at most, a few weeks ago? Using in the full citation "ref=CITEREF_[Author]_[year]" was sufficient. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Ah, I see, that is because these articles were deliberately introducing underscores (equivalent to spaces) into custom |ref=CITEREF... links, in order to match up with spaces placed at similar positions in the {{harvnb}} templates. By doing this they were exploiting a former bug in {{harvnb}} whereby spaces before or after either author's surname or year were significant, and would cause a different link to be targetted than if the spaces were omitted. This difference in behaviour has in the past caused much confusion to inexperienced editors who couldn't understand why {{harvnb|Smith|2010|p=123}} would link to a {{citation}} but {{harvnb | Smith | 2010 | p = 123}} would not. Such failures normally occurred when the full citation used the generic |ref=harv form, which is the default action for {{citation}} but has to be deliberately added to {{cite book}} and similar. See old version of documentation item 2.1.1.6; that bug has now been fixed, see #Spaces above.
Somebody else has fixed up Queen's Privy Council for Canada. For the other articles, you should in most cases be able to simply replace the |ref=CITEREF_Surname_year with |ref=harv, but there are times when a custom link is necessary; and this is where {{harvid}} is used. The unnamed parameters to {{harvid}} are exactly the same as for {{harvnb}}, that is, |ref={{harvid|Smith|Jones|2010}} constructs a link target for {{harvnb|Smith|Jones|2010}}; and similarly |ref={{harvid|Some anonymous government doc|2009}} constructs a link target for {{harvnb|Some anonymous government doc|2009}}. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:43, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I fixed it. The other articles should be easy as well. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:02, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
I see. Thanks for the explanation. It's going to take some time to fix up all the articles where the template doesn't function properly anymore. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 15:55, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
I have fixed Queen's Privy Council for Canada, Governor General of Canada, Orders, decorations, and medals of Canada, Victoria Cross (Canada), and Monarchy of Canada. Are there any more? If you list them here, I will gradually fix them over the next few months. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:06, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
I have also fixed Prime Minister of Canada and Government of Canada. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
And Parliament of Canada. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Needs Google Book support

Can Google Book support be added to this template? I.e. so it can generate "Oakley 1993, p. 26" instead of plain "Oakley 1993, p. 26"? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:02, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Obviously, you can add the link yourself. E.g. {{harvnb|Oakley|1993|p=[http://books.google.com/books?id=l_bSjtWNvpkC&pg=PA26#v=onepage&q&f=false p. 26] e.
How about this? Oakley 1993, p. 26, p. 26, at Google Books, which was produced by this: {{harvnb|Oakley|1993|p={{Google books|l_bSjtWNvpkC|page=26|26}}}}. We might be able to add a parameter "googleid", we can make this happen with {{harvnb|Oakley|1993|p=26|google=l_bSjtWNvpkC}} ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 05:54, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Can it work with 'cite court' template?

I can't seem to get this citation template to work with Template:Cite court, even after trying a number of the variations show on this template page. Is there a way to get the two templates to work together? I'm trying to do this at the article Canadian federalism. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 21:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

The {{harv}} family, of which {{harvnb}} is a member, work best with citation templates that generate a suitable anchor link. Such templates include (but are not limited to) those in the WP:CS1 and WP:CS2 groups, which do not include {{cite court}}. The latter does not contain any code for generating anchors, so your best bet is to wrap the citation in a {{wikicite}}. This uses the |ref= parameter to generate the anchor, and the |reference= parameter to specify the full citation - in this case the {{cite court}} template, as in
*{{wikicite |ref={{harvid|Doe|2012}} |reference={{cite court ...}} }}
which will allow you to use <ref>{{harvnb|Doe|2012|p=123}}</ref> etc. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
That worked perfectly. Thank you! --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 01:22, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible error

An editor has brought to my attention this: "...the template logic can extract the year of from a full date...", stating that the 'of' should not be there. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

 Done, see here; but note that template doc pages are rarely protected. --Redrose64 (talk) 18:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I didn't notice it was pulled from a documentation page.512bits (talk) 21:56, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
The documentation is normally the bit on a pale green background. At the top of this should be the heading "Template documentation", plus three links "[edit] [history] [purge]". The edit and history links relate to the doc page, and you may find that the documentation also contains [edit] links for any subsections which it may have (in this case all the section headings have such links, including Citation has |date= and no |year=). If there are no edit links in these places, there should still be a box at the bottom stating something like "The above documentation is transcluded from Template:Harvard citation no brackets/doc. (edit | history)", which provides an edit link, plus a link to the doc page itself, which may be edited like any normal page. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Core update

Given the commonality in markup for the author-date templates, I have developed a meta-template at {{Harvard citation/core}}. See Template talk:Sfn#Core update. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 01:40, 9 April 2012 (UTC)  Done ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 16:44, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

p/page

Would it be possible to add page & pages as synonyms for the p & pp parameters?

This would make its use consistent with the mainstream {{citation}} templates and would reduce one source of error in page coding. Thanks Andy Dingley (talk) 16:01, 28 April 2012 (UTC) 

|Page={{{p|{{{page|}}}}}}
|Pages={{{pp|{{{pages|}}}}}}

Andy Dingley (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Fine by me. We should also update the other templates in this series. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 22:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
 Done, please update documentation — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Other templates updated. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 15:06, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Documentation updated. (I was about to propose that equivalence be documented if valid and discovered it had already been programmed.) Nick Levinson (talk) 17:43, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

perhaps let "at" be same as "loc" in parameters

The functionality of the parameter "loc" seems to be served by using as the parameter "at". The latter is used in wife selling (English custom).

  • If "at" works identically like "loc", please let us know and I can add "at" as another name for the "loc" parameter in the template documentation.
  • If it does not work the same but it does offer something helpful for the template, could someone please add a description of "at" to the documentation?
  • If it should not be used at all, please let us know and I can add a caution against use to the documentation. Then perhaps pages using the incorrect parameter should be corrected by various interested editors.

Nick Levinson (talk) 17:19, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Like others in the harv group, {{harvnb}} doesn't recognise a |at= parameter. It recognises five positional parameters (four surnames and a year), and four named parameters |ref= |loc= |p= |pp= Three of these have aliases |Ref= |page= |pages= --Redrose64 (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
I erred regarding its use in that article, at least in the present revision. Thank you. Nick Levinson (talk) 18:18, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Broken parameter

Historically, this template supported {{{Ref}}}. In October 2010 this was aliased to {{{ref}}}, so that either would work. After the change to Lua, only {{{ref}}} works. There are a number of articles out there which rely on the (now broken) support for {{{Ref}}} (I came here from one of those). Can this be fixed? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:15, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Note: Ought to be fixed, per [1]. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:44, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Possible formatting error

Is it just me or is there a mistake in the doc section "More than one work in a year"? The example seems to have the References above the References heading instead of below. Also, I think the lead wording is imprecise. Rather than For authors who have published more than one work in the same year, it would be better as something like Where you need to cite more than one work from the same author and the same year, . --Sussexonian (talk) 07:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Please note I have fixed both the above. The formatting error was no pipe before param2 of "fake notes and refs". Sussexonian (talk) 08:39, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

IUCN

Can we add the ability to work with the IUCN templates, to make it more consistent. Thanks speednat (talk) 19:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

What are the IUCN templates? Please give examples. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
{{IUCN| id = 22718174| taxon = ''Passer domesticus''| assessors = Bob Hope| assessment_year = 2012| version = 2013.2| accessdate = 22 November 2013}}

{{IUCN| id = 22718174| taxon = ''Passer domesticus''| assessors = Bob Hope| assessment_year = 2012| version = 2013.2| accessdate = 22 November 2013}}

It's already provided. In this case you would use {{harvnb|Bob Hope|2012|p=123}} or similar: Bob Hope 2012, p. 123 --Redrose64 (talk) 23:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
I know that much; however if you place the ref= harv in the IUCN, it does nothing, no linking speednat (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
When {{IUCN}} is used without a |ref= parameter, it behaves as if |ref=harv had been specified, and it constructs an anchor based on the same five parameters that {{cite web}} uses: |last1= |last2= |last3= |last4= |year=. {{IUCN}} provides aliases for two of these: instead of |last1= you can use any one of: |last= |author= |assessors= |authors= and instead of |year= you can use |assessment_year=. In your example, which has |assessors=Bob Hope |assessment_year=2012, this is equivalent to |last1=Bob Hope |year=2012 and the link anchor is CITEREFBob_Hope2012. Therefore, using |ref=harv only appears to do nothing because it's doing nothing that is different from normal behaviour. There is nothing in either {{IUCN}} or {{cite web}} that can extract "Hope" from "Bob Hope" in order to construct the anchor. If you want the anchor to be formatted in such a way that {{harvnb|Hope|2012|p=123}} will work, there are two ways of doing it:
{{IUCN |id=22718174 |taxon=''Passer domesticus'' |assessors=Bob Hope |assessment_year=2012 |version=2013.2 |accessdate=22 November 2013 |ref={{harvid|Hope|2012}} }}
{{IUCN |id=22718174 |taxon=''Passer domesticus'' |first=Bob |last=Hope |assessment_year=2012 |version=2013.2 |accessdate=22 November 2013 }}
These display slightly differently:
{{IUCN |id=22718174 |taxon=''Passer domesticus'' |assessors=Bob Hope |assessment_year=2012 |version=2013.2 |accessdate=22 November 2013 |ref={{harvid|Hope|2012}} }}
{{IUCN |id=22718174 |taxon=''Passer domesticus'' |first=Bob |last=Hope |assessment_year=2012 |version=2013.2 |accessdate=22 November 2013 }}
but both of them serve equally well as a link target for {{harvnb|Hope|2012|p=123}} → Hope 2012, p. 123 - if you click that, you'll be taken to the first because there is nothing to distinguish the two examples. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Now after all that good advice you just gave me, I couldn't get it to work, then realized that I am using the IUCN2008 template not the IUCN template. speednat (talk) 03:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
In contrast to {{IUCN}}, which does a little bit of error checking and then pushes 28 of its parameters (or their aliases) through {{cite web}}, {{IUCN2008}} carries out no error checking, uses no subtemplates and creates no link anchor - it just fits the five parameter values (all of which are mandatory) into a pre-set piece of text which includes some formatting (italicisation and linking of |title=, etc.). Let's consider the Aardwolf:
{{IUCN2008 |assessors=Anderson, M.; Mills, G. |year=2008 |id=18372 |title=Proteles cristatus: Aardwolf |downloaded=22 March 2009 }}
which displays as
{{IUCN2008 |assessors=Anderson, M.; Mills, G. |year=2008 |id=18372 |title=Proteles cristatus: Aardwolf |downloaded=22 March 2009 }}
To get this to link from a harv template, you need to wrap it in {{wikicite}}, like this
{{wikicite |reference={{IUCN2008 |assessors=Anderson, M.; Mills, G. |year=2008 |id=18372 |title=Proteles cristatus: Aardwolf |downloaded=22 March 2009 }} |ref={{harvid|Anderson|Mills|2008}} }}
The |ref= parameter sets the link anchor, and the parameters for {{harvid}} are the same as for {{harvnb}} except that the |p=/|pp=/|loc= parameters should be omitted. Note that |ref=harv won't work. This displays as
{{IUCN2008 |assessors=Anderson, M.; Mills, G. |year=2008 |id=18372 |title=Proteles cristatus: Aardwolf |downloaded=22 March 2009 }}
which looks exactly the same, but it now functions as a link anchor for {{harvnb|Anderson|Mills|2008|p=123}} → Anderson & Mills 2008, p. 123 --Redrose64 (talk) 11:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Year ranges in citations...

A quick question if anyone can help. Some older journal references span several years, e.g. "Random Article", in Old Journal, Volume X, 1893-1894. I can't seem to get the harvnb citation to accept something like 1893-1894 and still link correctly. Any ideas welcomed! Hchc2009 (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

@Hchc2009: It's not a problem with {{harvnb}} but with {{cite journal}} - it won't create an anchor for a year that isn't a pure integer. You need to use {{harvid}}, like this. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Redrose! Hchc2009 (talk) 04:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
@Hchc2009: I should qualify it. when I wrote "it won't create an anchor for a year that isn't a pure integer", this should read "it won't create an anchor for a year that isn't a pure integer (optionally suffixed with a single lowercase letter)". This is because constructs like {{cite journal |last=Smith | ... |year=2014a | ... |ref=harv }} are valid, and will link from {{harvnb|Smith|2014a|page=123}} without a problem. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:06, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 30 October 2015

In the section 9.4. of the {{Harvard citation no brackets}} template, 

<ref name="FOOTNOTESmith200626">[[#CITEREFSmith2006|Smith (2006)]], p. 26</ref>

should be 

<ref name="FOOTNOTESmith200626">[[#CITEREFSmith2006|Smith 2006]], p. 26</ref>

since {{sfn}} (and therefore {{harvnb}}) is used—not {{sfnp}} (and therefore {{harvp}}).

— Maggyero (talk) 00:35, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
Not done: @Maggyero: This is the talk page for the {{Harvard citation no brackets}} template itself. You need to make a request at the article you want the citation to appear in, or to edit it yourself if you are able. Best. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 01:57, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
@Mr. Stradivarius: It is contradictory to what is said on Wikipedia's protection policy:

"A fully protected page can be edited or moved only by administrators. The protection may be for a specified time or may be indefinite. Modifications to a fully protected page can be proposed on its talk page (or at another appropriate forum) for discussion. Administrators can make changes to the protected article reflecting consensus. Placing the {{Edit fully-protected}} template on the talk page will draw the attention of administrators for implementing uncontroversial changes."

— Maggyero (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
@Maggyero: Are you talking about a particular article, if so, which one? --Redrose64 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2015 (UTC)
@Redrose64: I am talking about {{Harvard citation no brackets}} template (click and see).
— Maggyero (talk) 22:38, 30 October 2015 (UTC).
In which case, Not done: {{edit protected}} is usually not required for edits to the documentation, categories, or interlanguage links of templates using a documentation subpage. Use the 'edit' link at the top of the green "Template documentation" box to edit the documentation subpage. --Redrose64 (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

consolidating and abandoning Template:Harvard citation/core

Please see Module_talk:Footnotes#consolidating_and_abandoning_Template:Harvard_citation/core.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:08, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 November 2019

Hi, greetings from swwiki. Is there anybody who can help us to import this template into our wikipedia? We used to copy the set of sources from enwiki to our sw articles. Since the templates have become so complex it looks lousy. cf sw:Mgongo kati wa Bahari Hindi ya Kusini. If someone wants to help: we have even more template problems. Kipala (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC) Kipala (talk) 18:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Umm, the article that you linked to does not appear to exist.
It would be best if you have an sw admin with the appropriate permissions import the templates and Module:Footnotes from here. If your wiki requires changes to the templates or module, I can probably help with that.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:18, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Does not work with more than 4 authors

Can someone who is familiar with this template increase the number of authors that are supported? Right now, it can only accommodate up to 4, even though e.g. {{Cite journal}} and others accommodate many more. It doesn't make sense to have to use |havid= when the usual author last name parameters would do just fine. For an example, see User:Ergo Sum/sandbox/Gallipoli Cathedral, where I have to use harvid because there are 6 authors. Ergo Sum 20:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

This template and all of the other in the harv and {{sfn}} templates have never accepted more than four author names.
I presume that you mean this template?
{{Cite journal |last=Piuzzi |first=Emanuele |last2=Pittella |first2=Erika |last3=Pisa |first3=Stefano |last4=Cataldo |first4=Andrea |last5=De Benedetto |first5=Egidio |last6=Cannazza |first6=Giuseppe |date=September 2018 |title=An improved noninvasive resonance method for water content characterization of Cultural Heritage stone materials |url= |journal=Measurement |volume=125 |pages=257–261 |doi=10.1016/j.measurement.2018.04.070 |ref={{harvid|Piuzzi, et al.|2018}} |via=[[Elsevier]]}}
that can be rewritten:
{{Cite journal |last=Piuzzi |first=Emanuele |last2=Pittella |first2=Erika |last3=Pisa |first3=Stefano |last4=Cataldo |first4=Andrea |last5=De Benedetto |first5=Egidio |last6=Cannazza |first6=Giuseppe |date=September 2018 |title=An improved noninvasive resonance method for water content characterization of Cultural Heritage stone materials |journal=Measurement |volume=125 |pages=257–261 |doi=10.1016/j.measurement.2018.04.070 |ref=harv|via=[[Elsevier]]}}
Piuzzi, Emanuele; Pittella, Erika; Pisa, Stefano; Cataldo, Andrea; De Benedetto, Egidio; Cannazza, Giuseppe (September 2018). "An improved noninvasive resonance method for water content characterization of Cultural Heritage stone materials". Measurement. 125: 257–261. doi:10.1016/j.measurement.2018.04.070 – via Elsevier. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
then write
{{harvnb|Piuzzi|Pittella|Pisa|Cataldo|2018}} → Piuzzi et al. 2018
As far as I know, over all of the years that we've had this family of templates, four author names has been sufficient.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 20:33, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
@Trappist the monk: Thanks for your attention. Yes, I suppose you're right that it doesn't make much of a difference if the output will render as "et al." anyway. Ergo Sum 20:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Edited volumes

Is there a way to use this template for multiple chapters (by different authors) in an edited volume? See the current treatment of Chinese Warfighting in the article Nie Fengzhi for an example of what I hope to correct. It is duplicative to list the same book twice under 'Citations'; yet, at the same time, it does not seem right to treat the editors as authors for purposes of generating the citation. -- Black Falcon (talk) 18:38, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

This is why {{harvc}} exists. In the article, place {{harv}}-family templates in <ref>...</ref> tags or use {{sfn}} templates. These name the chapter author and may (or may not) provide specific in-source pagination (pages shown here are made-up examples)
In §Works cited, one {{cite book}} template for the edited work and two {{harvc}} templates for the individual chapters:
—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:22, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
Done, and thank you very much for your help! -- Black Falcon (talk) 01:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
Sort of. This short-form citation links to a matching {{harvc}} template but that {{harvc}} template doesn't then link to the {{cite book}} template as it should. Why? Because |year= in {{harvc}} must be the same as |year= (including the disambiguation character) in the {{cite book}} template.
—Trappist the monk (talk) 02:07, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Template name

Since the parenthetical citations RfC, concluded 5 September 2020, which did *not* deprecate this template, but the Harvard citations technique, in Wikipedia, it might be considered to rename this useful template in a way that the confusing "Harvard citation" expression is avoided in its name.

Short citations are an acceptable replacement for parenthetical referencing in Wikipedia, so I was thinking about this alternative name for the {{Harvard citation no brackets}} template:

I'd like to gather some response to this idea, before proposing this (or something along these lines) in a more formal way. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:11, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

For clarity, current names for this template ({{Harvard citation no brackets}}, {{harvnb}}, etc...) should be retained as redirects to the new name, but the template documentation would, of course, best be rewritten based on the new name, in order to avoid confusion. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:15, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Francis Schonken: To avoid the naming confusion (Harvard citations versus Harvard referencing) that we have recently discussed at Wikipedia talk:Parenthetical referencing § Extent of deprecation and at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2020 September 9 § Template:Use Harvard referencing, the entire family of Harvard citation templates (listed at Template:Harvard citation documentation § Author–date citation templates and Wikipedia:Citation templates § Harvard reference and shortened footnote examples) would need to be renamed: {{Harvard citation}}, {{Harvard citations}}, {{Harvard citation no brackets}}, {{Harvard citation text}}, {{Harvp}}. These are all still permitted in footnotes per the community discussion that only deprecated inline parenthetical referencing. Biogeographist (talk) 14:38, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
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