User:Redwolf24/Archive18

Esperanza charter

Nice work on that Redwolf. I made quite a few comments on the talk page but probably the most relevant one is that the charter seems to be kind of lacking a more detailed "mission statement". I'm worried we might still be all a bit confused about what Esperanza activities, practices, aims, etc, really are. To me the way it is "governed" or the precise little details about how members or assembly people are elected is for the fine print -- may not even belong in the charter at all?? I might like to have a go at minimally editing the charter when you think you and Jcarriker have gotten the general shape right. Cheers and again awesome work! Lisa 14:42, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, though its mostly JCarriker's work. Redwolf24 (talk) 22:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I love the democratic changes that you made RedWolf24; this is one organization that does not need too much beaurocracy.Voice of All ^@|E|Merit 01:06, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Bureaucracy* :) Redwolf24 (talk) 03:05, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza

Thanks for the info, and keep me updated! Oh, I did an article on Esperanza for The Signpost'. Be sure to read it! Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 21:33, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

I will! Redwolf24 (talk) 22:38, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration Remedies Violation

Redwolf --

I hope this doesn't make you regret saying that you're always willing to help, but ...

I'd like to have an administrator impose a 24-hour block on Jayjg for violating the prohibition imposed by Requests_for_arbitration/HistoryBuffEr_and_Jayjg that he not remove "adequately referenced information from any article which relates to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict" for the period 16 January 2005 to 16 January 2006. Jayjg violated this prohibition repeatedly by changing Occupied Territories (Israeli) to a redirect and by removing link to this article at Occupied Territories.

Thank you.

Marsden 15:34, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

(Tεxτurε would probably like to follow my message to you with this:

"You may want to review Marsden's history of reverts against community consensus in the articles before you act. Thanks.")

Redwolf, just so you're aware, aside from the fact that re-directing a POV fork back to its original page is not "removing adequately referenced information from Israeli-Palestinian conflict articles", Marsden has misunderstood the Arbitration Committee ruling. There are no Arbitration Committee restrictions on my editing; see Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Completed requests. Jayjg ^(talk) 20:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Leaving aside whether the disputed actions were ok or not, the arbitration case linked pretty clearly says you're not allowed to removed referenced facts from isreal-related articles. Are you saying this decision has been overturned? --fvw* 20:29, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

fvw makes a good point, and so does Jayjg. However, I have not even HEARD of this arbitration case, so I don't think it would be adequete to block jayjg. However if fvw blocks, I'll say its a fair call. Redwolf24 (talk) 22:22, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza changes

Looks good, but I have one question. Does the Admin Gen sit on the advisory council, or do they act a bit independantly. Since there are four members, a tie could be inevitable. Like the U.S. Senate, the Admin Gen could break a tie, but if they are impeaching him/her, this could be a problem. How about this: in the case of impeachment, the advisory council must recommend unanimously to the general Esperanza body a vote of no confidence. What do you think? Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 00:16, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Well that was my original intent, but then I realize the admin general doesn't do too much but provide direction, and most of the advisory council just makes sure he's not an idiot. In any needed functions for the advisory council that we may deem necissary, the admin general would be part of it, yes. And for impeachment, 3 to 1 would not impeach, it would have to be unanimous, which would be very hard. The council would then be the pro tempore leaders. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Possibly many institutions could survive without the "guy at the top" and work just fine with a dedicated advisory committee who can make the day-to-day decisions by themselves. I guess if we are going to have the Admin Gen the he/she should be there to be like a coach -- to make sure members are active, stay aware of news and make executive decisions when no one else is taking a lead. Lisa 03:03, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

P.S. do me a favor and copy the above to a section at the bottom of Wikipedia talk:Esperanza/Charter. I would, but my clipboard is full of the message that I sent you and I'm up to about User:Lord Voldemort, so about halfway I guess. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:20, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Looks good to me also. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. Don't want to toe step. :-) Maltmomma ^(chat) 02:47, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Be bold maltmomma! suggest some stuff at its talk. Redwolf24 (talk) 02:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I will put my thinking cap on. ;-) Maltmomma ^(chat) 02:49, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Okey-doke. Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 02:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The changes look good to me. I have made a couple of edits to the charter now. I hope you guys don't mind. It's difficult to resist on Wikipedia :) Do feel free to correct anything you're not satisfied with. Lisa 02:59, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Lisa I even gave you kudos on the charter's talk page. I'm watching the page of course! Redwolf24 (talk) 03:02, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

zOMG!!11

I think to get 6700 edits in the next 20 hours I would have to release several bots ;-). I took several months off (May through July, 2005) and just go started :-). You must be a busy bugger!!! -Roby Wayne ^{Talk • Hist} 01:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I have 0 edits in May IIRC and maybe 20 in April. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:48, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

I get it, I get it! I am a slacker :-). I just learned how to wield a broom and a mop around here a few weeks ago--much more active than before. Now, I feel like I live here. Heh heh. -Roby Wayne ^{Talk • Hist} 01:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Ohnoes, mop=adminness. Thats what that term's for ; - ) Redwolf24 (talk) 02:00, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I have a "smaller" mop, then :-). How about a dust brush and pan? haha -Roby Wayne ^{Talk • Hist} 02:29, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Ruh Roh...

... I think you should check out User:JCarriker. Mamawrites 08:11, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Hi Redwolf24, I think we all need to step back and take a deep breath and re-evaluate our goals for Esperanza. I don't think JCarriker feels it is quite ready to take off and it's going too fast. You've done a great job and have made some good changes but until everything is set in stone, I think JC needs to be included in all finalized plans. He is willing to open up a dialogue to get this all straightened out. I know you both only want Esperanza to be the very best it can be. Let me know your thoughts. Maltmomma ^(chat) 17:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Mama and Momma. I have messaged him at his page, but alas, I have also left a message here. After seeing comments like this, threatening to massacre me, I can barely be interested. However I have made some friends thanks to Esperanza, which is what I'm thankful for, but I lost one of my best ones, JCarriker. Redwolf24 (talk) 23:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

My "Little Pony"

Thanks a lot. Think I'll go for a ride, as soon as I find a Wiki-stable and harness!! Cheers, Bratsche^{talk | Esperanza} 12:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

My RfA

Thanks for your support in my RfA. In addition to creating a repsectable (I hope) new administrator, I hope the RfA also had the added bonus of promoting the gospel of smerge. It'll be nice when i feel I don't have to link that anymore. -R. fiend 18:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

You haven't lost a friend...

..you just baffeled, confused, and angered one (notice I edited the mediation page to chage my status to inactive, but made no changes whatsoever to your nomination). I have always and do realize that none of this was intentional.

The moment I dissolved the provisional goverment, the charter, until the Assembly was elected, was a done deal. You also had no authority to call an election for a charter that had not replaced or modified the existing one without the Assembly. I understand your desire to please everyone, especialy since through Esperanza you have made many new friends. I too am willing to compromise, but there is a point at which compromise becomes nothing more than submission, and that friends must agree to disagree. Esperanza is a voluntary organization if someone does not like the way it's run they don't have to help run it or even be a member if they so desire. The Assembly has always been what made Esperanza unique and its inclusion, for my part is non-negotiable. I am not willing to build a garage for some, where I had planned to build a house for all.

As far as compromises are concerned, I am willing to remove certification, in fact I had intended to do just that, which would have set a precendent for amending the charter. I am also willing to allow for an amendment to allow for a re-call of the Admin Gen by the general membership. My preferecne is that the charter be restored, the Assembly be elected and that htese changes be made by amending the consitution, though the method of pursueing the changes are debatable as far as I am concerend. -JCarriker 00:11, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I feared that the first action of the assembly may even be dissolving itself. I see little support of the assembly, even though it sounds like it would be interesting. I believe it was Kim Bruning who said that government is normally unneccisary until about 150 members. Plus, we have such people as Ambi saying we've been wasting too much time on bureaucratical stuff and we should be working on WP:ESP/P. Redwolf24 (talk) 00:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Esperanza was desgined to offer a safe haven from the mob rule that regins on most of wikipedia- where newbies are chided, senior wikipedians out-manuever less experienced ones, and minorities are shouted down. Not to mimic that very process, the criticisms about Esperanza doing unprecedented things is abusrd, as Esperanza was intended to be unprecedented as it is unique. Esperanza is worthless if it only repeats, what other projects are going and time would be better spent on the KC. I'm not going to stand in you way, but if Esperanza is not going to be what it was supposed to be I see no reason to stay as the safe haven of hope it offered through its uniqueness is gone and it will be nothing more than another clique of wikipedians. -JCarriker 00:31, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Yout move is touching, Matt but their is a season for everything. In all likelihood I am far younger than you are in terms of the real world, but at wikipedia I am tired and old and I am exhausted with the constant bickerings and edit wars and term wars over self-declared fiefdoms, while you are young and energetic. As an elderstatesmen I urge you to except my gift there are others who are not as capable as you who will drive Esperanza into the ground if you do not stop them. Please allow a tired old statesmen to slip into a retired life. -JCarriker 02:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• • How Mark Twainesque. You will return I assume one day though, and I will be waiting. :) Redwolf24 (talk) 02:24, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Now I feel Mark Twainesque, or more Huck Finn I guess, floating out here in this little stream, on a little log raft, waiting to be reconnected to the big river. :( ∞Who?¿? 02:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• • • Actually I rather identify with Cicero, but I guess I can say I write good engough to know I should write well. I would consider not leaving if the Assembly would only be given a chance, even if on a temporary basis. I'd rather loose the admin gen than the assembly. -JCarriker 02:38, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Governing by consensus

Hi Redwolf,

It's good to see that so many people are actively thinking about Esperanza and similar good-faith efforts; thanks for your energetic work in this regard. Have you thought seriously about such an organization, with shared charter and projects, but without 'advisors' or 'generals'? I should ask the same of JCarriker.

Pick one popular esperanza-project and get everyone to pitch in (consider the success of the stub-sorting project). I hope you won't throw out the gathered interest, even if noone can agree on founding principles or reforms... just start doing good work. If there is so much work that it is necessary to delegate specific responsibilities to certain members, try delegating low-level responsibilities (such as splitting up the work of announcing new projects and proposals and polls [each announcement can take half an hour]). +sj + 00:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes I have, and so has ambi. What I did was a compromise between JCarriker and Ambi's ideas. JCarriker's experimenting with whole new ideas, which are pretty good, but its true, Esperanza should be working on other stuff, like stuff in WP:ESP/P. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:16, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I would worry more about those projects than about the policy reforms. You can always decide on a charter later, after the first successful project has been launched. +sj + 04:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Kudos to you!

Hi Redwolf24 and kudos to you for trying to mend fences. You've done a good job and I don't think you should beat yourself up over this. We need to work together to bring it back stronger than before. You have many good ideas so lets discuss with JC and implement them. Maltmomma ^(chat) 02:35, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I think he's keen on leaving wikipedia, though I will wait for his return. Now to try and salvage Esperanza, I just made Wikipedia:Esperanza/Reform. Redwolf24 (talk) 02:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Greetings; no, actually I haven't been following (recently, my life has been a lot of real-life stuff, if you know what I mean). I'll look at all the talk, but I'm not sure I'll have ideas right away. My one main idea is that this should not be an overly formal organization: just a lot of decent people who want Wikipedia to be a friendlier place, maybe with some general direction in the form of a comment/suggestion bin. Philosophically, I think what Esperanza is trying to do is fill the same need a town has when it transforms into a city: the place where once everyone knew everyone else, has become a place full of unfriendly strangers. This is happening to Wikipedia, and the transformation continues; Esperanza could be one of several informal entities that can soften that transition. Antandrus (talk) 02:54, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This transition happened in wikipedia back when it started showing up on Yahoo. And unfriendly strangers such as that Redwolf24 jerk came cause of it ; - ) Redwolf24 (talk) 02:56, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Spamming

Ya like seriously stop spamming man. Its not cool. I hope you get hard banned. :) JobE6 03:14, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

lmao :P Redwolf24 (talk) 03:19, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Hello!

Hey there Redwolf24,

Let me take a moment here to keep you updated with my activities with respect to Esperanza. I removed my name from the list because I currently do not have the adequate resources available to devote to helping with Esperanza. I also want to stay outside of the current activities there so I can objectively think about what best to do next. I promise, I will return to help you out, but currently there are more important issues I need to attend to both on and off the Wiki. Esperanza is still on my watchlist as it always has been, and it will stay that way for the foreseeable future.

I know how important Esperanza is to you - I was really happy to see someone recently try and help Esperanza take off. You don't need to apologize for "spamming" about Esperanza. You are just doing what you think is right with what you have available to you. I honestly believe you are doing this because you think Esperanza is a worthwhile cause - and yes, I agree, it certainly is!

If nobody has told you explicitly yet, thank you for taking up a leadership role there, at a time when it seems very needed. It may be tough going forward, but I think if you stick with it, things will pay off. Personally, I think the most pressing issue is to mitigate through the two extremes - "government, or not"? Sometimes, a viable compromise is not necessarily something that falls right in the middle. Perhaps there is another alternative yet unexplored? Which extreme might be more palatable in the short term? If that is adopted now, would it be possible to gradually move towards the other so that an equilibrium is reached, more in line with the ideals of what you think is best? Sometimes, it is easier to build organically from the bottom upwards, than to impose from the top downwards. Which top or bottom would be a good starting point to best work with?

Ask yourself: at this point in time, what do Esperantists need? What don't they need? What do they have? What do they wish to do without? Why might that be? Take a bit of time to step back and really contemplate about this - the situation is not as precarious as it seems. Be bold, but not reckless. You have not been reckless at all, and any well meaning Wikipedian carefully observing will see that you have done the best you can. Keep persevering! Remember, often change is transitory, and so is a Wiki - intrinsically. Share in the wealth of ideas - they are meant to be brought forward. Treasure the ones that are worthwhile, and move on from the ones that are not. Be prepared to reconsider one's positions, and learn to change when necessary. Adapt and modulate as the situation warrants. It is very important to recognize that no two perceptions of equity and equality are ever the same. Why might it be important to distinguish between the two?

Finally, I leave you with Bloom's Taxonomy:

• 6) Evaluation
• 5) Synthesis
• 4) Analysis
• 3) Application
• 2) Comprehension
• 1) Knowledge

Use this as one of many frameworks to guide your future endeavours. The list is inverted for a reason. Do you see how each of these build on top of one another? Understand what each of these levels of thinking are trying to express and emphasize, and see if you can apply it to the situation at hand. Your friend has simply left for vacation while his house is undergoing renovations - major renovations perhaps. You happen to be an excellent friend and a trusted contractor, and consequently have been given the keys to his house. Take care of your 50+ colleagues who are helping to build it. Listen to what they have to say. Check the plumbing, check the wiring, check the regulations. Be meticulous, but not overbearing. Occasionally take them out for lunch too - and don't forget that sometimes a quick 15-minute coffee break is good! Send your friend with say, a monthly postcard. Take pictures of what you have accomplished. Maybe one day a very happy Wikipedian will return to say "Wow! I never thought this would be the future - this is wonderful!". Trust the Wiki to nurture a vision that is synergetic with everything that is out there and beyond!

Regards, HappyCamper 04:18, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Well ya do what ya can, hopefully this will all work out, we just need to work at it. And by the way, you can stay on the list without doing anything, a lot of our users do that. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Can you help.....?

Hi,

I'm the user goncalves67, a new user. I would like to now why the wikipedia guys are always deleting some photos from some articles, look a month ago I try to put a photo of princess Alexandra Christina of Denmark, Countess of Frederiksborg in the page where it says something about her, but they always are deleting the photos, I was trying to put one in there because its always better an article to have photos about the person or the thing that is speaks abou (sorry for my inglish). Today I was loking to that some article and there's a photo of her but they say (wikipedia) that is gone be deleted because it doesn't have copyright. Can you help me, and help to put a nice photo in that article, because there's so many beautiful photos abou that woman and I think that would be nice to loke there, or to any article and see a photo about that some article. Thanks for your time. Goncalves

You need to tag them. See WP:IMAGE and look for tags, then look at what to tag your stuff with. If you don't, it'll be deleted. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza spam

Hey, dont worry, spam me as much as possible as I have found that my watchlist doesnt load half the time. I have voted, so I hope we can get this project on the road real soon. Banes 05:23, 22 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. Do I have to be an admin to run for the advisory council? Thanks

Yeah, I second that...I'm not the least bit bothered by your messages, so no sweat amigo. I've just been bogged down at work this week and haven't had much time to edit...been mainly playing RC patrol. I'll check in again tomorrow.--MONGO 05:29, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh please come on, you're not spaming me don't be ridiculous, I want Esperanza to succeed as well. I'm giving it to you in writing: Please keep spaming me about Esperanza until I drop! :-)) cheers Gryffindor 10:32, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

No you don't have to be an admin for that. And even though so many of you are saying the spam is welcome, I'm sure there's those who don't want it. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

ESP Spam

Feel free to keep spamming me, I don't mind :) Agriculture 06:34, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

This goes for me as well. Although I still haven't had a chance to go through it all, I promise I will. Well, as soon as I can sit on my couch at MY computer and get online I will. UGH! ;-p ∞Who?¿? 06:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me about the vote, but the outcome of all of those is already clear. I hope those ten or so people are prepared to do all the work, because I suspect there's not going to be many more people willing to dig through the bureaucracy and cabal-like organisation. It's having the same problems as WP:CSB did when it began - brilliant idea, but with people who desperately want to be "leader" and drowning in bureaucracy. I'll have to give this some thought, but I'm highly tempted to start a free and open organisation to carry out these noble goals, along the lines that Filiocht describes on that page, and leave Esperanza to the feuding few. Ambi 09:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Would you mind closing the One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest request/vote for moving? --DrBat 11:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

You'd have to link me. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanzamania

Hi. Don't hesitate to spam me with esperanza stuff. I've actually been reading the stuff going on at the project quite closely, though not participating, because it all seemed, honestly, a little bit unmotivated for some time. That's not a proper excuse, but I hope you know what I mean. Karol 16:36, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

I do. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Esperanza

Greetings, Redwolf24.

I appreciate your effort in the elaboration of the Esperanza project and do not mind the "spamming", as you call it — to tell you the truth, I quite like new messages being left on my talk page. Alas, I find Esperanza to be too "bureaucratic" to my taste; that is, excessive attention is given to the project administration, and this appears to be a hindrance, somewhat ironically, to its progress. In addition, I now lack the time needed to involve myself in such a "venture", and am unsure I can guarantee taking part in it, even once current issues will have been resolved.

I excuse myself, thank you, and wish you the best.

Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 17:37, 22 September 2005 (UTC).

The administration is hindering us for now, but as soon as its sorted through, everything'll be finee. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I see the poll is not going well

Well its seems my friends are not going to let me retire after all. While the Assembly has been soundly defeated there is also great division among the other alternatives. I have drafted a compromise and I'd like to run it by you and Ambi before I post it the reform page. The Administrator General, Admin Gen, will be the only goverment functionary elected to a four month term. Redwolf is acknwoledged as the current Admin Gen and will set the date for an election to be held within the month. The Admin Gen's terms cannot be consecutive, and may not nominate themselves for the postion. Only Esperanzian members on the date before and election begins can vote. This allows a minimal amount of bureaurcracy The issue of government expanison will be taken up when/if Esperanza passes 150 members. If you and Ambi, can consolidate most of Esperanza it should break the current facitionalism and unite the organization behind you and its goals. -JCarriker 18:21, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Sounds great actually. But I want to see the group's opinion on the advisory committee, just getting rid of them before the polls end would make me seem two faced :-/ Redwolf24 (talk) 01:32, 23 September 2005 (UTC)