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Note: This is a copy of the original thread found at WP:AE#Domer48


Domer48[edit]

Domer48 has effectively claimed ownership of the template IrishL. With clear knowledge that I have a 'probation' under The Troubles Arbcom, it is my belief that Domer48 used this knowledge to game the system in order to keep his preferred version of the template.

The editor reverted my good faith edit to the template with no explanation given other than the edit comment "per talk", referring to a talk page that he had not yet edited. I reverted his revert, giving clear explanation again as to the rationale behind my edit, both in the edit summary and on the template's talk page. His own explanation, which he gave just before his second revert on the template's discussion page, was not satisfactory and my alternative was clearly a more appropriate symbol to use for the template. Domer48 did not accept this and, after my second revert of his revert, he reported me for breach of the ArbCom and subsequently reverted the template again to suit his own agenda.

When I say agenda, I mean a political agenda. The template covers the subject of Loyalism. The flag of Northern Ireland is not a specifically Loyalist symbol. My alternative was specifically Loyalist. Domer48 is amongst a group of editors who have campaigned tirelessly to have the flag of Northern Ireland removed from articles throughout Wikipedia, except in sports and apparently situations whereby the flag is shown in a negative light.

I am left in a position, due to an ArbCom ruling against me as a result of a case on suspected sock puppetry by a collaborator with Domer48 (which was not presented with the full facts), in which I am effectively unable to introduce balance to many articles, categories and templates because of a certain group's apparent avid patrolling of said articles. --Setanta747 (talk) 13:03, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Domer48 is currently blocked, and AE probably isn't the right place for this, this looks like a case of edit warring, content disputes, and disruptive behavior on a sensitive subject.--Tznkai (talk) 13:51, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
On a set of articles that have been subject to arbitration.Traditional unionist (talk) 13:53, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually I take that back, Domer48's behavior suggests to me he should probably placed on probation as well. Second opinions please?--Tznkai (talk) 13:55, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Could this be put on hold at least until Domer can edit again as he is currently blocked and at least he should be allowed to explain his edits. BigDuncTalk 21:29, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't look like any decision will be taken soon, there is no reason why his edits cant be discussed in his absence, but of course natural justice dictates that he be given an opportunity to defend himself.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
On another note Northern Ireland does not have a flag except the Union Jack, Setanta747 is trying to portray the Ulster Banner as the official flag of NI and this matter has been discussed endlessly. BigDuncTalk 21:39, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually this complaint has much more to do with Domer trying to portray the Northern Ireland flag as that of loyalist terrorism. This isn;t about Setanta's views on that flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Traditional unionist (talk • contribs)
I couldn't care less about the content dispute. If I consistently and earnestly edit with the belief that polar bears are blue and not white, that's not an issue as long as my behavior in pursuing that belief is not troublesome. It doesn't matter who is "right" it matters what conduct is pursued. As for the concerns about Domer being able to defend himself, I am willing to wait for him to say his piece, but an uninvolved administrator (thats me) has discretion to put editors on probation due to the relevant Arbitration case. I am fully willing to use that with as wide a net as the community desires.--Tznkai (talk) 22:34, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
Speaking as someone who dealt with this for over a year, Tznkai.. grab the biggest net you can.. and make it three times as big, and hope it's big enough. SirFozzie (talk) 00:32, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
[de-indent slightly & edit conflict] To BigDunc: Northern Ireland does have a flag - the flag of Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland's flag. It is an "official" flag. I'm not trying to "portray" anything. If you'd like to discuss it more, I'm happy enough to tell you the same facts, yet again. I hardly think this is the place to be doing so though. TU is right when he says that the notice is here to discuss Domer48's abuse of the flag and contemplate his possible abuse of the system and attitude etc.
At the time I posted this notice, I had been unaware that Domer48 had been blocked from editing. I made no recommendations or suggestions. I leave it to the community and/or admins to decide whether his behaviour warrants any kind of action. I also hope that this will pave the way for a sensible discussion about the template that has been mentioned, instead of just a cursory comment or two and a report (of me) to ArbCom. --Setanta747 (talk) 00:43, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I’m surprised this user hasn`t been spotted sooner, when you look at the history. It seems to me he is constantly fighting with every user he comes across who has a different opinion. When horns are locked a user is subjected to a vile and constant attack, which is obviously not the wikipedia way. Maybe this user should have a topic ban on all Irish related subjects --Rockybiggs (talk) 10:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
That would be a considerably more nuclear option.--Tznkai (talk) 12:36, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I would be inclined to take anything that Rockybiggs has to say regarding Domer with a pinch of salt, as this editors comments and troll actions against Domer can be seen here and it looks like an attempt to get one back. BigDuncTalk 21:53, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Bigdunc, this is not true, just the same as user Setanta747 mentioned in the first paragraph (see [1]), i was subjected to a the same banning campagain by domer and his friends, which happens to be the same as the user who brought the allegations against Setanta747 which was One Night In Hackney. Thank you for bringing this matter up Big Dunc and i feel this further backs the claim Domer rallies peoples to his cause to cause problems on wikipeda. Also i would like to add this editor has got away with these actions for far too long, it seems to me he pushed serious editors to the extreme where they feel they have no other choice sometimes, and who are then sucked into allegations not of there making--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) Just so you all know, my usual reaction to seeing accusations of groups of users taking sides is to squeeze them through dispute resolution, and to make sure any enforcement measures, say probation, be applied equally and all around until people prove themselves otherwise capable of operating outside it. In other words: be very careful about accusing other editors of teaming up against you!--Tznkai (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I am only observing and after seeing a administrator`s comments. see admins comments [2]
--Rockybiggs (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I have noticed a pattern on Irish articles. To a reader familiar with Irish matters the abuse is obvious. It's very clever and it appears to apply with policy and guideline until you examine it closely. I'm not saying it's a team effort but there are obviously some who monitor various articles to ensure they don't get changed from a particular POV. Woe betide the editor who challenges the status quo. The Thunderer (talk) 10:43, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Let's not pretend it's not happening from all sides, if not quite all users. SirFozzie (talk) 03:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
That's an issue as far as I'm concerned because I haven't seen it happening from all sides. Admittedly my experience is confined to a small number of articles but I have found that various editors use the same methodology to poison those articles with the synthesis being to persuade the reader that the police force and military forces in Northern Ireland were anti-Catholic. Being a realist, when I edit in information it is, in my mind anyway, factual and supported by refs. I then find that information is introduced in the way of "spin" and handy quotes from anti-British authors which try to refute the information I have included. That then means I have to introduce other material which shows how the spin works. The finished article is then full of allegation and counter allegation which does little to enhance the encyclopedic value of the item.The Thunderer (talk) 11:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
The problem here Thunder is that you see the obviously anti-Nationalist "Security Forces" as not anti-Nationalist. And you try to put that "spin" on things. Sarah777 (talk) 14:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Ehhh! These British PoV -vs- Irish PoV arguments are all the same. GoodDay (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually Sarah the question of Nationalism doesn't come into it. The issue of "anti-Catholic" practices is the point. I don't shy away from anything which may appear to make the security forces seem anti-Catholic, however instances where they were patently NOT cannot be refuted by spin. That's my argument. So if the regimental history of the Ulster Defence Regiment states that Protestant politicians complained because 3 UDR was heavily Catholic and that promotion was difficult for Protestants because of the high number of Catholics then that needs to be in the article. Not because I like it, because it is a verifiable fact. Similarly, if the powers that be took action to prevent infiltration by Protestant paramilitaries then it also should be in the article, as should infiltration by Republicans. What the article can't be is an outright condemnation of the regiment nor should it be a statement by Sinn Fein or An Phoblacht to that effect. Articles are not a platform for political gerrymandering. They are for the input of verifiable encyclopedic knowledge. I respectfully request you bear all that in mind. The Thunderer (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent) AE is not the place for content disputes. Get back on topic.--Tznkai (talk) 15:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I answered the comment by Sarah to indicate that my views and edits are non-partisan. Too many people make the mistake of thinking that everyone who edits on Northern Ireland articles is either Loyalist or Nationalist. There are some of us who were just born as either Protestants or Catholics and we have no political allegiances. This is the entire crux of this matter and whilst I agree that content disputes have no place here the reasoning behind them is the fundamental cause of edit-warring on Irish articles.The Thunderer (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Minor point Thunder - my bad, I conflated "Catholic" with "Nationalist". You did say "Catholic". Apologies. Sarah777 (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Ya'll should be atheist (like me), less hassle. GoodDay (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
"Born as either Protestants or Catholics"! Saddest think is that the person who just wrote that won't think there is anything wrong with it. Meowy 01:54, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Why on earth would you think there is something wrong with my statement? Perhaps you should think about what I'm saying rather than trying to read something subversive into it. The Thunderer (talk) 11:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
You have just proved my point. People are not "born" Catholics or Protestants. Meowy 16:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to take this opportunity to address this point about being "born x or y". In Northern Ireland, unfortunately, this is in fact the case. When born there one becomes ostensibly Protestant or Roman Catholic depending on one's parents' religion (in the case of non-mixed marriages). The statistics and Census operations and the job application monitoring forms all take this into account, and assign you - effectively forcing the likes of myself, to declare a "community background". If this is not done, it is usually based on the primary school attended, or possibly on the parents.
It isn't a desirable thing and I have certain objections to it. Given the political climate though, it is unfortunately seen as necessary. I appreciate your attitude to it Meowy, but I also understand The Thunderer's meaning. While religion isn't genetically inherited (though it is often the case whereby the parents' religion is adopted by the children), when it comes to Northern Ireland, as the old joke suggests, you're either a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew! --Setanta747 (talk) 20:56, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I was aware of the cultural background, but not that that sort of thing was still so prevalent. Unfortunaltly it is the case (and always has been) that UK media studiously ignore Northern Ireland (you are more likely to see a program about Tuvalu on the BBC than one about Northern Ireland) so as not to upset anyone. But I doubt even religious leaders would find it possible to produce scriptural evidence to support a view that someone is "born Catholic". It is all just power and politics. I recall seeing a film about similar practices in Eire in the 1950s, based mostly on fact, where the Catholic Church considered that it "owned" a child whose mother was Protestant and whose father was Catholic but wanted the child brought up in his wife's faith. Eventually she was forced to flee and hide out in the Scotish Highlands, while, back in Ireland, local Catholics were whipped up into a frenziy against the area's few Protestants, blacklisting many of their businesses and eventually murdering one of them. Meowy 22:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
A Love Divided was the name of the film. Not a bad show, based on a true story and handled quite sensitively, I thought. BBC Northern Ireland tends to tackle Norhern Irish issues head-on and there are often current affairs programmes about the Troubles which are broadvast nationwide. Other than that, I agree with you - the media is certainly at least partially responsible for simplfying the divided notions along religious lines. Unfortunately, it's not without a grain of truth. Often people are labelled, even by people here in Northern Ireland, as Protestant (for example) even if they are in fact athiest. Yes - that still goes on today, despite the 'peace' we've enjoyed in recent years. --Setanta747 (talk) 23:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, thanks. That was the film I was remembering (sorry if I got some of the plot details wrong). I've seen very few nationwide broadcasts about NI, certainly nothing as detailed as to show current cultural issues like what you have been describing. IMHO, the BBC uses its "regional" stations just to marginalise material and subjects, while allowing the national broadcasting to continue as usual as the "EBC" (or "SofEBC"). But remember when the real voices of nationalist or IRA spokesmen couldn't be broadcast on British TV, and actors' voices had to be dubbed on to them! Until recently you couldn't even find maps of Northern Ireland in British libraries - they were all withdrawn from the public shelves in the 1970s and you could only view them in a few central libraries if you had security clearance and official credentials! Meowy 23:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

The same editor has also described some editors as "rabid Irish bigot", and having been asked not to responds by saying it's very much a question of "if the cap fits - wear it!". Tznkai, since you are taking the lead on this one, could you outline what the issue is and we can address it point by point. Diff's always help, because comment and opinion makes it just go round in circules. --Domer48'fenian' 08:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Who did I call a rabid Irish bigot then? Or did I just say it generally in a fit of frustration? Of course it must be pointed out that I am Irish too. What you're missing Domer is the fact that we don't need contstant reminders in articles of the "Republican struggle". Your most recent edits on Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary are exactly what I'm talking about. In articles which contain specific information about the fears of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland as well as an overview of how they were regarded politically, you feel it necessary to add in newspaper quotes stating their fears, without putting in any balance whatsover from the opposite POV. In other words, you are making the articles a condemnation of the existence of the organisations without letting the reader just deal in pure facts and making up their own mind. This is an encyclopedia, not a political platform.The Thunderer (talk) 11:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Totally agree Thunderer, that somes up the entire problem; some editors use wikipedia as a political platform for their own agendas and obviously try to spin the articles to that end.--Rockybiggs (talk) 12:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, not a political platform. rem POV on B Specials, corrected POV, Nationalist opinion is of no consequence..., Not correct at that time. A Republican POV. So its not just newspapers but respected authors also you have a problem with, most of which could not be described as Republican, quote the opposite. --Domer48'fenian' 12:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Enough is enough[edit]

Since this dead mouse has been laid at my feet, I'm going to have to clean this mess up my way.

From this point forward, I will take any unprofessional or uncivil commentary on this AE thread as further evidence that you need to be placed on discretionary sanctions. Furthermore, any further airing of content disputes on this thread, or accusations of bad faith or similar motivations will constitute unprofessional and uncivil conduct. I want two things, and two things only from the complainants.

  1. Specified diffs of bad conduct. I don't care about motivations, our supposed POV, and I certainly am not interested in accusations of cabalism or meat/sockpuppetry, or admin repression of your rights. I'm looking for edit warring, genuine personal attacks, confirmed sockpuppets and similar bad conduct.
  2. I want a short consise statement why you should not be put under sanction yourself.

Some Caveats:

  • Do not bother quoting policy to me, I know it as well as you do.
  • Bickering will be taken as evidence of unprofessional or uncivil conduct
  • Limit yourself to the month of September if at all possible
  • Limit yourself to short concise statements, if it is too long I will remove and ask you to try out again.
  • Be on your very best behavior. You are proving to me that you are not going to disrupt Wikipedia or Irish related articles.

If you've commented on this thread in any capacity, and you're an editor on the Irish articles, you probably want to respond. I'll be digging through page histories in the meantime, and any other admin wants to handle this, feel free to step in.--Tznkai (talk) 12:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Ye Rocky some editors use wikipedia as a political platform for their own agendas and obviously try to spin the articles to that end. You'd know all about that? As for your comments to me lol Vandalism - don’t make me laugh your an IRA supporter and then RV Domer IRA POV comments as usual from this user says so much more than I could. --Domer48'fenian' 12:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Tznkai, welcome to my world, genuine personal attacks, confirmed as outlined above. --Domer48'fenian' 12:57, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Domer48 for bringing those edits up, which i was totally (over the top) punished for these edits which you say above, by your friends of a 3 month ban and a ban on all Irish related articles (still in place). Your constant ownership of these files is the problem. I have no further comments to make on this board as all i say is i welcome Tznkai comments earlier that everyone will be subject to punishments and trust this will be as severe as the over the top punishments given to me --Rockybiggs (talk) 13:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't feel I should be put under any sanctions. I've contributed good material in a non POV way to the couple of articles I do edit. My interest isn't so much in Irish matters but rather military and as soon as I'm finished with the three articles where there's a crossover I'm on my way, unless I find something else in Irish military history which interests me. To be honest I'm getting fed up with the whole thing and might just quietly disappear.The Thunderer (talk) 16:37, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
So what's it gonna be? is Domer gonna be barred from Irish articles for a period of time? or at least barred from the Template in question? GoodDay (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I have been asked by Tankzi to comment here. My view is that an "Irish" article ban for Domer would be pure censorship, and wrong in a very profound and anti-WP:NPOV way. Apart from "abusing" the template contesting his block what did he do? I'll need to read up on this as I'm obviously missing some of Domer's "crimes". Sarah777 (talk) 18:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I too, am not familiar with Domer's conduct (weither it's good or bad) on Wikipedia. Best I excuse myself from this AE report. GoodDay (talk) 18:44, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

[De-indent] I have been invited to comment on this report. To be honest, I haven't really anything to add. I am not interested in the bickering about flags, the UDR, the IRA, who's "anti-this" or "anti-that", Loyalists, Republicans, unionists, nationalists, or who called who what. I'm interested in the report I made about this particular user. I'm not even interested in the last report made against me by this same user - that has been done, dusted and dealt with and I have 'served my time', as it were.

I am interested in whether the user can be seen to have been gaming the system, to have inadequately responded to a good faith edit (by me) on the template in question and to have done so with full knowledge that his intransigence would win out due to the fact that he was fully aware of the probation against me and that any attempt I made to revise the template would result in both a block against me and the maintaining of the status quo with regard to the article. I am interested in whether it can be seen that the editor was involved in edit warring and, as such, was in breach of the ArbCom against us all. Also, I reported the editor to see whether it can be determined that he claims ownership of many articles. The main point though, is that Domer's actions regarding the template removed the possibility of any progress being made. I had presented a perfectly satisfactory alternative and Domer rejected it out-of-hand.

As regard to Tznkai's suggestion that others be given sanctions, this case is about a specific user - not about others, nor is it about tag-teaming etc. I have been quite straightforward and highlighted recent actions taken against myself.

As TheThunderer has hinted at, the atmosphere that has developed regarding articles relating to Northern Ireland, since January of 2007 has discouraged editors from tackling issues that need sorting, and even from editing Wikipedia. Some of these editors, from all and no political perspectives, have made decent, substantial and valuable contributions to Wikipedia.

I realise this contribution to the discussion has not been particularly concise. I hope, though, that all the points I have made will be taken into consideration: this should not necessarily be a re-hash of the Troubles ArbCom (if necessary, that can be addressed again separately). This case is about an individual editor. Note also, that I have not requested a ban on the editor of the editing of all articles relating to Northern Ireland. The proper course of action, should any action be considered appropriate of necessary, I leave up to a closing admin and/or the community. --Setanta747 (talk) 20:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

A quick look at the edit history here, and my use of the talk page here should be enough to address the allagation of me gaming the system. It should also address the allagation "Domer48 has effectively claimed ownership of the template IrishL." Now it is my opinion, that if Setanta747 accepts that this flag represents only one of the Loyalist groups the Loyalist Volunteer Force, and this one is representative of all Loyalist groups (since they all use it) there will not be a problem. The alternative, is to have no flag. The main difficulty Setanta747 has is "The flag of Northern Ireland is not a specifically Loyalist symbol." As has been pointed out countless times [3], [4], [5], this flag is not the flag of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland dose not have a flag. I do welcome Setanta747 statement that "I am not interested in the bickering about flags, the UDR, the IRA, who's "anti-this" or "anti-that", Loyalists, Republicans, unionists, nationalists, or who called who what." So we can put all this behind us. --Domer48'fenian' 21:17, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
The edit histories are very interesting. If I could be bothered I could post rather a lot of links but rather than waste my time doing so and leaving myself open to any allegation, I'll content myself with asking; if you;re not that bothered about ownership of articles and your edits are non-partisan, why make a comment like "Negative material must be balanced by positive material," and just what policy is that in? The Ulster Defence Regiment are discredited. --Domer48 (talk) 17:23, 14 April 2008 (UTC) which can be found here. The entire talk page of that article reads like a terrible condemnation of the attitudes of some editors here and your comments have not been laudable Domer. We can see you and several others tearing lumps out of a new editor and making terrible personal attacks on him. I can see no reason for that other than trying to game him. The Thunderer (talk) 22:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Again, I hadn't wanted to get involved in the intricacies of the usage of the flag here - that should have been done on the talk page of the template, at the time. However, as you have raised issues here, I shall respond to each of them.
Your sparse discussion on the template talk page may well indeed be evidence enough for the case.
Northern Ireland does have a flag - it is the flag of Northern Ireland, as has been pointed out countless times. It is not representative of Loyalists as, while it may be used by most, or even all Loyalist groups, it is not specifically Loyalist. Nor is it used solely by Loyalists.
I have no idea why you point to the sock puppetry allegation against me in the context of "putting things behind us". It seems to me that by pointing it out, this is precisely the opposite of what you are doing here, and quite unnecessary.
I would be happy for all the related templates to have these symbols removed - there are precedents for templates not including any kind of graphic. It might perhaps have been useful if you had mentioned this option before you decided to report me under the Troubles ArbCom - perhaps saving both of us a lot of time and effort. However, I don't see why you would have an objection to the use of a specifically Loyalist flag in the infobox, instead of the flag which you should know is used by non-Loyalists. --Setanta747 (talk) 23:09, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, Tznkai's already tried to bring this back on topic once, it's my turn. Unless you have sourced diffs of bad behaviour amongst other editors (and also a reason why, if you're involved, why YOU shouldn't be put under sanction), don't say anything. This is NOT the place to refight content battles or old wars. Enough is not enough, in this case.. it's Way too *@)$&@) much. I wouldn't be surprised if the decision is to place everyone involved in content disputes in this thread on restriction, because none of you can get along with each other long enough to get squadoosh done. SirFozzie (talk) 23:14, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
So what you're saying basically is that we have to spend our time finding fault with others rather than defending our own neutrality? Hardly productive. You can count me out of this discussion as of now. I'll edit articles and deal with problems through the correct channels. The Thunderer (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
No, I'm saying it's two fold. Show WHY A) You should not be put under Troubles sanctions, and B) why anyone else SHOULD be put under sanctions. Tznkai, AND myself have had quite enough of this circular mud throwing fest. SirFozzie (talk) 00:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
As I was asked to respond here I will only say this as I really could not be arsed with this nonsense anymore. Until an editor can supply some diffs which show that I broke any wiki policy I will not comment any further. If there are some diffs that can be dragged up I will respond to them. Because as far as I am concerened I have not breached anything that would warrent sanctions being placed on me and as Thunderer says I don't want to start digging around to get other editors placed on probation either. All this needs is an admin who is willing to enforce policy that we have already without making a James Cagney movie out of it. BigDuncTalk 08:29, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Now it's my turn: this report is about a specific editor. It is not about BigDunc. Nor is it about The Thunderer. Nor is it about any other editor who has ever been so bold as to edit an article relating to Northern Ireland. As the headline suggests, this case is about Domer48. --Setanta747 (talk) 09:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Not anymore. Standard etiquette, procedure, and common sense all dictate that I look not only at the original target of the complaint, but all the editors on all of the affected articles. This thread has been full of accusation and cross accusation, and generally bad behavior all around. As SirFozzie suggested I have had more than enough. I am going to cast this net as wide as necessary. The conduct in this thread has given me more than sufficient suspicion of your incapability to work in a civil fashion, and I'm digging through article and contribution histories to confirm or deny that suspicion.--Tznkai (talk) 12:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

And who is that directed at Tznkai? BigDuncTalk 13:00, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Pretty much everyone who commented in this thread except SirFozzie, who as far as I know, has not edited any of the articles in the locus of dispute. And possibly Meowy, who just seems to be here to argue about religion, I can't find any significant interaction on the Ireland pages just yet.--Tznkai (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Well would it not be wise to inform everyone involved and not just those who have commented here that they are facing possible sanctions? And I do hope you have a lot of free time because I doubt I am not alone in wanting to see diffs for any wrongdoings that I am alleged to have commited. And I'm sure that goes for Thunderer, Domer, Traditional unionist and any other editor. BigDuncTalk 13:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
From my perspective there were only two editors I had issues with. BigDunc and Domer. BigDunc and I have come to a workable understanding whereas Domer and I haven't. That means all my issues at the minute are with Domer on two articles Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary. The page histories there tell the story but I'm not going to list it all point by point. What I suggested to another admin is that someone should be appointed as "custodian" of those two articles to ensure non POV editing. I stand by that comment because I feel my editing IS non POV and no doubt Domer feels the same. The Thunderer (talk) 16:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

First of, this needs to be cleared up. I maintain that The Thunderer is GDD1000, and he had also been using IP’s. 82.41.187.226 was an IP being used by GDD1000 in May based on this talk page post and this admission. 82.41.187.226 then made this edit, which The Thunderer took responsibility for in this edit so they are clearly the same person. In addition, 81.149.73.79 and GDD1000 are also the same person. GDD1000's first edits were as an IP, such as this at 15:39, 10 April 2008. Both IPs and The Thunderer were editing the article on 29 July, this is clearly not a permitted use of sockpuppets, especially considering the GDD1000 account is not being used. The accusations of sockpuppetry were met by responses of "stupid comments by some paranoid person" and "deleted stupid stuff - obviously a wind up", showing this person has no intention of being honest when confronted with evidence of his flagrant abuse of sockpuppets. Once this is sorted, I will start to provide diff's which show that The Thunderer has a major conflict of interest and has been the cause of major disruption on the Wikipedia articles Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary, such as attempting to remove negative information despite it being sourced. In the intrest of fairness, this has to be addressed. --Domer48'fenian' 19:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

"In the interests of fairness", you need to quit beating this dead horse, Domer48. I'm blue in the face pointing out that there is no abusive sock-puppetry going on here. None!. Seriously, there isn't. Let it go, let it drop, leave the man be already. Address your issues with the man and describe the "major disruption" he's perpetrating on the project if you must, rather than banging this old drum again. It's a fascinating investigation, I'm sure, but completely irrelevant to the topic at hand here - Alison ❤ 19:45, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Alison this discussion is taking place here because of what has been happening on the Ulster Defence Regiment and Ulster Special Constabulary articles. It is completely relevant to the topic at hand, or are you suggesting that the edits of GDD1000 or the IP's have no bearing on how we ended up here. Now Tznkai is reviewing the edits on the articles, and has asked us to raise our concerns here. I have, and it is my opinion that the editors are the same person, and have been attempting to remove negative information despite it being sourced. Now I'm willing to drop the "abusive sock-puppetry" if they put their hand up and say they are the same person. Why don't you tell Tznkai about the amount of socks I've had on my case no matter what article I go on and the crap I've had to put up with. If I drop my user name, do I get to come back with a clean slate? --Domer48'fenian' 20:04, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

That's mighty big of you, Domer, but might I suggest that dropping the 'abusive sock' label is not your call, nor should you be dangling it over that editor's head like that. It's a catch-22 for him. If he says it's not or says nothing, you'll keep beating up on him as you are, if he does, you get to crow "aha!!!" and declare he has some COI or other. Not fair. Right now, I'm seeing your name on the title of this section, not GDD1000 or The Thunderer's. I strongly suggest you focus on the article issues here and whatever's going on rather than focusing on the person or persons, as you are wont to do - Alison ❤ 20:17, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Do I get a clean slate if I drop my user name? --Domer48'fenian' 20:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

You get a clean slate if you drop your old username and never edit an Irish/whatever it if got you in trouble-themed article under a new name. Otherwise, no. MBisanz talk 20:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
That's entirely dependent on circumstances, MBisanz. There are other reasons (and feel free to email me on that) - Alison ❤ 20:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Ahh yes, I was going with the usual reasons, but probably if someone is under ArbCom sanction AND at AE, the usual situation does not apply. MBisanz talk 20:49, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Domer - not with your block log, no, unless there were extenuating circumstances :p - Alison ❤ 20:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
It is very much worth noting that GDD1000 disappeared after what has been described as bullying by......errr.......Domer.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that MBisanz, I thought as much. When an editor has a long history of disruption, gross POV editing, edit warring and copyright violations, it should not be permitted for them to try and get a clean start under a new name, and deceive other editors by editing the same article pretending to be a brand new editor. Alison dose however have an idea of what my problem is, suggesting that I will "declare he has some COI or other." Now accusing me of "beating up on him" is not going to wash with me. Check the article talk page history from here down, when I went back onto the article. Not once did I comment on the editor, only the edits. They however never let up on me with their accusations. Alison the wiki answer to everything is not "email me on that" lets keep it all open. Now this section is no longer just about me Alison. Let Tznkai do their job. TU as usual you have it all wrong. They gave their reasons here on the top of their talk page why they left. And who were the two editors they blamed for it Fozz and Kylu, not me. --Domer48'fenian' 21:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Nah, Alison's a checkuser, she says there is a private reason that would indicate against you restarting under an alternate account, that is good enough reason for me. Now back to the topic of your behavior, if I am reading your statement correctly, you are still confusing GDD1000 and other current editors, can we please stop the insinuation that current editors are this retired dude? MBisanz talk 21:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

I will not be dropping it. It is completely relevant to the topic at hand, the edits of GDD1000 and the IP's have a bearing on how we ended up here. I will also be bring up my block log in this discussion, and emails I've recived. --Domer48'fenian' 21:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fine, apparently I was not clear. You made accusations of sockpuppetry, a checkuser investigated them using technical tools and found there to be no abusive sockpuppetry. Continuing such accusations subsequent to the checkuser results is harassment of the accused. If such accusations continue, the party making them will be blocked for harassing another editor. Is that clear? MBisanz talk 21:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Oh for crying out loud, Domer48 is hereby put under discretionary probation based on his conduct in this thread alone. Furthermore, he is blocked for 72 hours, which I will consider undoing if he promises to be super civil and professional and stop talking about sock puppetry.--Tznkai (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Remedies[edit]

Enacted[edit]

  • The Thunderer (talk · contribs) put on 2 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
  • BigDunc (talk · contribs) put on 2 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
  • Sarah777 (talk · contribs) put on 1 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
  • Traditional unionist (talk · contribs) put on 1 month probation under discretionary sanctions prescribed in Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles because of disruptive edit warring.
  • Any editor found taking advantage of these discretionary sanctions is immediately blocked for 1 week, put under discretionary sanctions indefinitely, and referred to the community for an indefinite topic ban.
  • Any editor found violating these discretionary sanctions will have their probation reset and extended to double previous term immediately, then referred to the community for consideration of a topic ban.
  • Unless otherwise stated, probation is as described under "Terms of probation" Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Enforcement with the following caveats and clarifications
    • Any article or edit that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under the reversion restriction. When in doubt, assume it is related.
    • Clear vandalism may be reverted without penalty
    • Rollback should not be used on related articles
    • Reversions are roughly defined as changing a page so it is substantively the same as a previous version. Consult WP:3RR for guidelines, but apply a healthy dose of common sense.
    • When in doubt, don't revert.

Proposed[edit]

  • Discretionary sanctions will be shortened by two weeks upon completion of a voluntary self-topic banning for the same.

Other notes[edit]

I'm not done yet, these are based on preliminary findings.--Tznkai (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The permanent probation for Domer is certainly the right move - we've had many problems with him The Toubles area - He was recently banned from the Irish Famine page for two months. I see 2 months is proposed for Dunc - That's fair, I think a permanent parole would also have been fair but I guess there's no harm in giving him one final chance. Sarah777 can be a fantastic editor, but I see so much edit warring and random reverts - This for instance, I really don't get why it needed to be reverted without explanation. She accuses many of British POV pushing yet she's the one pushing Irish POV. One month seems reasonable, but a caution should go with it that further disruption on these articles will not be tolerated in the future. I must admit, I haven't come into contact with The Thunderer or Traditional Unionist before so it's not fair that I comment on them. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 23:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
One or two problems there Ryan (1) I didn't edit war; (2) She accuses many of British POV pushing yet she's the one pushing Irish POV - you've just accused me of pushing Irish POV; how come you are allowed do that? (Your 'summary' above is merely your opinion, btw, and is wrong). (3) disruption on these articles - what disruption?; diffs please. (4) You have now banned yet another Irish editor (Domer) for trying to remove British POV from articles - thus Wiki's famed "consensus is achieved. How it's done; you take the majority pov and then systematically block and ban all editors who try to introduce balance, thus maintaining a permanent majority for the unchallanged insertion of thr dominant Anglo-American POV. Sarah777 (talk) 09:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
...er Ryan, This is reverting vandalism - I am not sure if it could be more obvious. Lucian Sunday (talk) 00:46, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Indeed it is - I was looking at that all wrong, I thought she was reverting all that. Struck. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 08:35, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'd of gone a bit longer on Domer's block, but all the proposed and enacted sanctions appear fair and of the minimum degree to ensure harmonious content creation. MBisanz talk 00:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
In case it needed to be said, please bring any problems with any of these users or the related articles to my attention via my talk page, e-mail, or IRC, preferably in that order. --Tznkai (talk) 03:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
er, where is the recent edit warring by the thunderer? I had a good enail exchange with them after declining the last unblock request and they clearly understood they had gone too far and had learned their lesson. A quick look at recent contribs doesn't suggest they restarted edit warring so why the probation? Maybe I'm just being dim but where is the recent edit warring by them? Spartaz Humbug! 05:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
While your jumping to The Thunderer defence Spartaz could you show me where I have been edit warring too. BigDuncTalk 08:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Nice assumption of bad faith there but I did look at your contribs and they are equally as clean. Tznkai, please can you address this issue. Why have you raised probations for edit warring on users who do not appear to have been edit warring in the last week? Spartaz Humbug! 14:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
For one example, the bottom of this history here[6] (Circa Sept 20th). For another example, all the nonsense on this thread is the "disruptive" part of the warring. I'll put up a more complete report soon.--Tznkai (talk)
Bliocks have already been served for that incident and contributions have been free from edit warring since. I strongly protest. This is a clear case of double jeopardy and I'm also not seeing recent evidence of unacceptable disruption from bigdunc. Spartaz Humbug! 14:56, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm unaware we had a double jeopardy policy. This isn't a moot court, despite my use of certain formalities and the Arbcom occasionally acting like one. These remedies are meant to 1. deal with the original complaint, 2. deal with surrounding and entangling disruptions and 3. deal with the heart of the issue. Not one of these editors I've placed on sanction, including BigDunc has shown me the ability to cooperate and productively push forward in creating a better wiki left alone. Remember, this complaint surfaced on the 23rd, and I made it clear that I was looking at the whole month of September at the very least. This complaint has been open a full week, and everyone had a chance to step up then.--Tznkai (talk) 15:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I can't see where you're coming from with those comments. My intent all along, and I've made it clear, is to produce a better wiki. As far as I can see all I've been doing is standing up for myself in the face of some very determined opposition who, using their much better knowledge of the system, have been able to run rings around me. My comments below nodded acquiesence to what you've done without complaint and now you are saying I'm not co-operative? While I appreciate you don't know the entire story and don't have the time to research it all, surely you can also understand that some of us have better things to do than spend time formulating what are quite complex complaints? All I want to do is contribute without causing problems, or having problems caused for me by people who are gaming the system to my disadvantage. I've given you your place and all I want in return is to have fair dealings with you. The Thunderer (talk) 16:28, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Edit wars take multiple people. Even if you are being ganged up on (which has been suggested to me by more than one person) that doesn't change the facts that the confluence of all of these editors has resulted in edit wars, and generalized disruption to the wiki. Thus, a wide net.
I have no intention of divvying up blame, merely an intention to stop this warring in its tracks. This seems to be the fairest and most minimal sanction option I have available to me that I think will work. Part of being an effective Wikipedian is being able to walk away from edit wars and disputes instead of fighting them. This is more important than any single policy. There are countless users on this wiki who can and will pick up the slack, given the time and opportunity. Wikipedia at large, in my estimation is sick of the lot of you, and it is in my estimation because of repeated failures to disengage.
From this point forward, as far as I am concerned, there is a clean slate. You follow the rules of your probation, you conduct yourself in civil, "professional" manners, and probation dissipates and you're left on your way with no ill blood.
This message has been in response to all sanctioned editors.--Tznkai (talk) 16:42, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I completely disagree with the way you have gone about this. There is no evidence provided for the sweeping probations you have dished out and the terms of the probation are completely undefined. Where are we 1RR, 0RR, article bans, civility probation? What? You clearly have not researched this issue enough to know who is currently a problem and who is not and have just come in and slapped on some very vague and sweeping sanctions on editors who are not currently edit warring, are not being disruptive and who have shown that they can respond rationally to clear instructions and limitations. I'm shocked that you think its OK to sanction an editor who has served their block and is behaving and another who has never been blocked for anything who is also not currently disrupting the project. So please properly document this decision so we can discuss it, decide on whether they stand up and if not give the victims of the decision a basis to appeal it if they wish. Right now I have no confidence that you have made the right call here and I really feel that you are being unfair and unjust. Spartaz Humbug! 18:58, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The terms of the probation are in the Arbcom case. They are rather uniform. As for the rest, its rapidly apparent through various diffs provided, my talk page, and this thread that these editors have an excess of hostility and are short on cooperation. I would also point to the voices above who have voiced their support of this measure. But hey, I'm willing to listen to your suggestion on how this should've been dealt with.--Tznkai (talk) 19:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm not seeing enormous support for the probation for DigDunc and the Thunderer, in fact, Ryan specifically excludes them from his endorsement. I looked through their contribs and I'm not seeing any current issues, neither is edit warring and I wouldn't say either is being particularly disruptive. I absolutely endorse the probation onf Domer48 (in fact I'd support a ban at this point) but I personally feel that the probation on the two editors I have cited does not reflect their current editing. I'd suggest lifting the probation with an understanding that it will be immediately reinstated if their editing deteriates and I'm happy to keep an eye on their contribs and, if necessary, impose the probation myself if this will reassure you on this point. Spartaz Humbug! 19:24, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Spartaz, I would certainly agree with that. I'm sure they both now understand the severity of the problem, and what would happen if they were to disrupt these articles in the future. It could be a final warning to all parties. I do fully support the probation of Domer however, he's passed his final warning. Ryan PostlethwaiteSee the mess I've created or let's have banter 10:41, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) So what you're basically saying is that I, as a new editor who hadn't got a clue how to work the system and gets put upon very soundly, as you would appear to have concurred from discussions with other admins, I'm tarred with the same brush as everyone else and you're sick of me? Or have I misunderstood your intent? The Thunderer (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Thunderer come on please. BigDuncTalk 18:00, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not being uncivil. I just find it rather strange that an admin would allege that the entire encyclopedia is sick of all of us when the ins and outs of this affair would defeat a leading QC. The Thunderer (talk) 18:07, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Tznkai i think you have been very fair with a very difficult situation administering everyone here. Further to user Ryan Postlethwaite comments regarding the edit warring of user Sarah777, I would also like to add that this user is less than cival on the talk pages with this shocking statement comparing British people to Nazi`s here [7] and a futher more worrying comment here [8] which was commented on by a admin as being racist here [9]--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
My honest opinion on all this? I don't believe it's perfect but if it stops all the nonsense I'll run with it without complaint.The Thunderer (talk) 10:01, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd just like to sdee where I've been adit warring. I haven't been editing as much in the past 8 or 10 weeks.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

  • My thoughts - I think it'd be useful just to try this out for the time that Tznkai has indicated. Whilst it may be true that some of the editors involved haven't been edit-warring recently, I think we all know that those identified by Tznkai have been guilty of the same at some point. If it works, that's great and we can formulate some sort of strategy to move forward on these articles. If it doesn't, let's try something else. Black Kite 20:11, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Black Kite I have done all that you asked since we came in to contact and have not broken my undertaking with you, would you not agree looking at my edit history? BigDuncTalk 20:16, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Dunc, I think the point is - don't think of this as a sanction on you or some of the others (apart from Domer48, but I think that's correct). After all, probation is just a stricter limit on editors not doing what they shouldn't be doing anyway, and even if we have to probate a large group of users in order to attempt to cut out the unproductive edit-warring over the wider range of Troubles articles, is it not at least worth a try? Black Kite 20:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
No not to this extent if an editor is breaching policy then block them it is that simple what is needed is an admin to step up to the plate, sweeping sanctions against editors who have not been edit warring is wrong IMO. BigDuncTalk 21:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) I've added some clarifications on the probation terms.--Tznkai (talk) 00:04, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you considered my comment above? Spartaz Humbug! 05:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I have, and my basic problem with it? I don't think it'll work. I've been reviewing the block logs and digging deeper into the background, talking to people etc, and the more I hear and the more I see, the more it suggests to me that all of the editors I've blocked have been adding fuel to the edit wars. The basic misunderstanding here by the sanctioned seems to be the proper response to edit warring and perceived POV pushing. That is, to sit down, drink the beverage of your choice, and ask for a third opinion. Or something else. Perhaps edit Camel or something. Edit warring is never the proper response. These are not punitive measures, but preventative ones, and there is reason to believe that yet another "FINAL WARNING!" will not work to prevent the problem. Block logs, edit history, and the complete inability of the participants to stay on topic when asked in this thread, all point to a serious and deep set problem.
Keeping an eye on them is going to be incredibly difficult, especially since the people who watch these editors the most, are the editors they're warring with. As BlackKite said, the probation is a formal restriction to do things a good, civil editor with any sort professionalism (or common sense for that matter) would do voluntarily anyway. I will consider your proposal more as I continue to investigate and gather opinions, but right now from where I sit, the histories show that the brief lull in disruption is not sufficient reason compared to the long history of edit warring. This lull that you see does not coincide with any apparent change in outlook or behavior. If it did, or if someone showed me it did, I will be much more willing loosen up probation lengths.--Tznkai (talk) 11:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Addendum: I see middling opposition to the probationary right now, but some support, and also consensus by silence, which is by its nature weak. I'll continue digging, put up the requested diffs and analysis, and then if we feel necessary, we can request for comment and/or check in with the appropriate notice boards.--Tznkai (talk) 11:36, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
That says an awful lot that you even consider such a thing as consensus by silence exists. There is no defence against that. BigDuncTalk 17:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Domer has something he wishes to shareUser_talk:Domer48#Needs_to_be_posted_on_ANI--Tznkai (talk) 17:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Tznkai I'm really not seeing any overwhelming support for your probation on these two editors and Ryan now supports my proposal. Where there is no clear consensus either the probation is not supported or we need further eyes on this. I'm disturbed that you are unwilling to consider compromise. I'm therefore asking you to again consider my suggestion. If you still feel unable to change your decision I am contemplating seeking further eyes from ANI or following the set procedures and appealing your action to Arbcom. Please think about it and let me know how you wish to proceed. Obviously this would be overtaken if there were a clear consensus from other éditors how/where we should go on this. Spartaz Humbug! 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Disagreeing with your suggestion doesn't mean I'm unwilling to compromise, it means I disagree with your suggestion. (As I indicated already) I have no problem bringing more eyes into this, and if you want to appeal my action to Arbcom go right ahead. In the meantime, I'm going to write up a report on the situation, finish answering the questions on my talk page, and respond to various e-mails I've been receiving.--Tznkai (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
If you are not prepared to consider lifting the probation in favour of it being reintroduced at the first incidence of poor behaviour I can't really see what possible compromise you are considering. Please can you write up your report and then I'll link it from ANI and get some more eyes on to this. Spartaz Humbug! 20:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

(undent)Ideally, it'll be up tonight after I buy food and eat dinner. Also, AN is preferable to ANI in my opinion.--Tznkai (talk) 20:38, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Working on it now at User:Tznkai/desk/Reports/The Troubles 9-30-08 Sanctions--Tznkai (talk) 23:57, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
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