User talk:Benz001

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Your submission at Articles for creation: John Pinter - Australian architect (May 26)[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by KylieTastic was:

This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:John Pinter - Australian architect and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

KylieTastic (talk) 19:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Benz001! Having an article draft declined at Articles for Creation can be disappointing. If you are wondering why your article submission was declined, please post a question at the Articles for creation help desk. If you have any other questions about your editing experience, we'd love to help you at the Teahouse, a friendly space on Wikipedia where experienced editors lend a hand to help new editors like yourself! See you there! KylieTastic (talk) 19:10, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @KylieTastic I thought the referencing for this might be inadequate!

I really appreciate that you looked at this so quickly.

Sorry for any noob questions but I'm trying to compile a list of his houses and whatever biography of him that I can before all reference to him is lost forever.

I'm a little stumped about how best to cite sources for this, as I have here on my desk some rare offline documents:

1. Original plans and documents from 1960 for one of these houses, including stamp and signature of planning approval for the house from the local council

2. Photocopies of newspaper articles from the 1960's reviewing two other houses of his, but the photocopies don't include the header of the paper to identify the date/details of the paper, one of these is the Sydney Morning Herald whose archives are paywalled.

3. A handwritten note from the neighbour of one of these houses describing some brief history of Pinter and the client for that house and dating the architect's death as February 2002

4. A printout of that same URL I cited from 2016 that includes the headline image, which was actually the house by John Pinter in Northbridge and directly relevant - but that URL has since been shifted to archive mode and stripped of the photo!

Is there some archive that copies of paper documents can be uploaded to perhaps to preserve them for linking to wikipedia? What's the normal process for this?

Thank you! Benz001 (talk) 05:32, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Benz001 no worries we were all new once and Wikipedia has a lot of complexities. The key thing for articles is to understand that all new articles on Wikipedia have to show the subject is notable (See WP:N) which in most cases requires significant coverage (WP:SIGCOV) in multiple independent (WP:INDY) reliable sources (WP:RS). So the first thing to do is find 3+ such sources to show that notability. So even if they were conveniently online and useful as sources for claims not all sources help to show notability.

Regards 1: good as a reference for a claim but would not help notability - Also probably copyrighted so too new to be uploaded to commons. Sources do not have to be online, but would need to be theoretically identifiable - you could use something like "Planning approval for {property name}, by {council name} dated MMM DD YYYY, reference xxxx"

Regards 2: Newspapers do not have to be online but you would need to have details such as dates and page. I have access to newspapers.com and only found this, this and this

Regards 3: Such personal notes have no real value unless the writer is someone who is known and their opinion has some merit.

Regards 4: Do you mean the url in the article. It does not even mention the subject. Are you saying he was just mentioned in the picture caption. If you have the original url you may find it captured on https://web.archive.org/

Paper documents can be uploaded to Wikimedia commons and used here - but only if public domain or out of copyright, or you own the copyright and donate etc. However if the actual validity of them can not be checked many are not good sources. Doing a general check I can't find much about him so they may just not be notable enough for Wikipedia. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 11:04, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, what a great resource that is - Two of the old clippings I have here are those two SMH articles, that’s a couple of mysteries solved!

I’ve found some notes from a museum exhibition here a few years ago and an accompanying book that I’m getting transferred to the local library so that may provide some more historical context on his work and another reference, I’ll update the draft once I’ve got my hands it 🤞 Benz001 (talk) 07:19, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @KylieTastic, well I've managed to track down some more references and info on this architect. He's covered on a few pages of the referenced book on European architects who were rather ignored by the establishment at the time. This book was the trigger for an exhibition at the Museum of Sydney in 2017. https://theothermoderns.com/about/

I also found a related wikipedia page to the informal collective of architects working in Sydney from that era known as the Sydney School, his works from this era are highly characteristic of this school, particularly the roof line and use of clinker brink.

Frustratingly it's the missing image and full caption in that [SMH article] that definitively links the two, with the author using Pinker's house to lead the article.

I've checked the wayback machine and it's not there, the only remnant in the SMH archive page is that it still shows the address of the house in the remnants of the caption on the very last line "22 Minnamurra Road, Northbridge (pictured)" which still shows in that article.

I feel this, his work on the Hungarian embassy combined with the scarcity of houses remaining from this school of design that best meet the notability inclusions but this missing image is very annoying!! Benz001 (talk) 00:00, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, glad you made some progress, trying to find sources for some people that are probably notable but not well covered is a challenge. Sometimes I've search ed to hours then found a goldmine, other times just fail. I always hope as more gets digitised we can find the sources we need. Sources like newspapers.com and newspaperarchive.com are continually adding more newspapers, so are many libraries - but then still most behind paywalls. It makes writing such articles both frustrating and rewarding if you find enough. So much information is hidden in un-digitised books and newspapers, and the wayback machine is great but relies on someone grabbing the scrap at the time. There could be sources in Hungarian but without a native speaker that is a very hard search. See this for another source. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 20:37, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your submission at Articles for creation: John Pinter (May 31)[edit]

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Rusalkii was:

This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.

The comment the reviewer left was:

New sources I can access seem to be by him, not about him (so not independent). Taking the offline source on faith, I would want to see at minimim 1-2 more sources about him with substantive content.

Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit after they have been resolved.

If you would like to continue working on the submission, go to Draft:John Pinter and click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window.
If you do not edit your draft in the next 6 months, it will be considered abandoned and may be deleted.
If you need any assistance, or have experienced any untoward behavior associated with this submission, you can ask for help at the Articles for creation help desk, on the reviewer's talk page or use Wikipedia's real-time chat help from experienced editors.

Rusalkii (talk) 05:49, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Rusalkii - thanks for the feedback, you said you had found new sources by him? Could you send me the links?

So far I’ve not found any articles that he’s written and I’d love to read some. The only original documents I’ve found by Pinter are blueprints and building specifications, I’d really love to find some more personal notes from him! Benz001 (talk) 06:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the newspaper articles you linked, it seemed like the by-line was his? If that's wrong then I'm very sorry. Rusalkii (talk) 06:48, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, no I don’t believe they are by him - rats I really thought you’d found something more 🤣 Benz001 (talk) 06:49, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In that case I've made a mistake in my review, feel free to resubmit and make a note of that for the next reviewer, this one clearly isn't for me. I'm really sorry about that. Rusalkii (talk) 21:57, 31 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Concern regarding Draft:John Pinter[edit]

Hello, Benz001. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:John Pinter, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your draft article, Draft:John Pinter[edit]

Hello, Benz001. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "John Pinter".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:36, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]