User talk:Bookku/sandbox19

Template:Arabic script needed

The template is placed to confirm usage of Arabic script in the first sentence as per WP:MOSISLAM#Grammatical standardization. Please remove the template after confirmation. Bookku (talk) 13:05, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Templates to be used

• Template:Sunni Islam
• Template:Islam
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• Template:Anthropology Bookku (talk) 16:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Al Biruni, What did he say?

Regarding 'Tashabbuh bi’l-kuffār' an anecdote seem to have been covered by couple of WP:RS sources. Though a little, but there seems some difference in versions of the anecdote.

Lawrence, Bruce described version

".. As eleventh-century Persianate scholar Ahmad Al-Biruni noted it did not matter if the Byzantine had first used the astrolabe; it became Muslim when five daily prayer times were superimposed on the Byzantine calendar. And to those purists who objected to his recycled use of 'Christian' instrument claiming that it showed imitation (tashabbuh) of unbelievers, Al-Biruni rejoined: 'The Byzantines also eat food. Then do not imitate them in this!' .. Al-Biruni was sarcastic yet he made a point worth stressing: .." ~ As covered by Lawrence, Bruce. Muslim Cosmopolitanism, The Idea of Islam. United Kingdom, C Hurst & Company, 2012. p 22.

Version As covered by Barbara Stowasser

".. Other mu’adhdhins were of “excessive ignorance.” One of them was upset that all available measurement devices and time tables were based on the (solar) “Byzantine year,” not the Arab (lunar) year, and “his ignorance made him at the end refuse to accept anything based on the Byzantine months, not allowing it into the mosque, since [those] people are not Muslims. Then I said to him: The Byzantines also eat food and walk around the market. Do not imitate them in these two things [either]?” .." ~ As covered by Barbara Freyer Stowasser in “Time Sticks”: How Islam and Other Cultures Have Measured Time.

• Which version is likely to be more correct?
• Whether Al-Biruni was answered by any theologians, if yes, then by whom and how?
• Any other sources covers any similar anecdote on topic of Tashabbuh ?

The answer received from User:Lambiam at Humanities reference desk: "

Stowasser's version is what Al-Biruni himself reports^{[1] (archive.org full text)} in his book The Exhaustive Treatment of Shadows (in the translation by Edward Stewart Kennedy; the original text is in Persian). .."

• Now next question is "Stowasser's version is what Al-Biruni himself" is more accurate from primary source, it is referred by multiple other secondary WP:RS like Stowasser but in context of 'time study' sciences. So is it okay to use Stowasser's version along with Lawrence? We shall ask this question at WP:NOR/N. Bookku (talk) 04:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Categories

Idk, if Category:Islamism can be applied or not? Bookku (talk) 13:46, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't know if this is purely a Sunni concept

I am not sure this is purely a Sunni concept given that this saying exists nearly 1:1 as the Hadith 207 in the Path of Eloquence (numbering varies between different editions) and thus it's been repeated in countless Shiite collections of ahadith as the iNoor Arabic page nicely shows.

https://hadith.inoor.ir/ar/hadith/382244/related https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/selections-sayings-and-preaching-amir-al-muminin-ali#hadith-n-207

207. وقال عليه السلام : إِنْ لَمْ تَكُنْ حَلِيماً فَتَحَلَّمْ، فَإِنَّهُ قَلَّ مَنْ تَشَبَّهَ بَقَوْمٍ إِلاَّ أَوْشَكَ أَنْ يَكُونَ مِنْهُمْ

Amir al-mu'minin [Meaning Ali], peace be upon him, said: If you cannot forbear, feign to do so because it is seldom that a man likens [tašabbaha] himself to a group and does not become as one of them. - al-islam.org translation

Thus I suspect there might be so to say a parallel world or rulings and opinions on this concept in the Shii sphere of jurisprudence and writing. I will look further into it. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

As I see it most of this article thus far builds primarily on Patel's work which seems to thoroughly explore this tradition from Abu Davud onwards in the Sunni tradition but as he states here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeLybyZcPv0&t=2890s he seems to be unaware of this hadith tradition attributing essentially the same saying to Ali throughout Shii circles using the same vocabulary. Without wanting to get into OR we might have to look into Arabic and Persian language sources to get a more complete picture here. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 02:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Okay so on p. 70 and p. 251 of the Muslim Difference he seemingly reveals his method between the lines, he looked through a dictionaried index of al-Kotob al-arbaa by Iranian TV producer AliReza Barazesh, did not find the term mentioned there very much and assumed that it is largely absent from the Shiite tradition it seems. Hence he for this reason does not cite the Path of Eloquence and thus entirely misses that this is attributed to Ali in the most important Shiite quasi-compilation of ahadith relating to Ali (even beyond just 12er Shiism) and quoted from there into all the other Hadith compilations so nicely listed on iNoor. But because this is Shiism and not Sunni Islam with their divergent views on sayings literature ie because the Path of Eloquence contains entire speeches and letters attributed in Shiite circles authentically to Ali it is usually consulted before the four books (whose authenticity in 12er circles is a much more complicated matter) he might unintentionally have skipped a more important source in favor of less important ones. On page 604 of The Islamic Treatises against Imitation in Arabica he claims his conclusion is "based on an exhaustive study of canonical Sunni and Imāmī Shiʿi collections of ḥadīṯ" which makes me question if I possibly misunderstood his method or if views of "exhaustive" diverge here. I really do not want to misrepresent what happened here (and this is getting dangerously close to OR) so this might be a good time for me to write him an email or try and tweet at him to figure out what exactly happened here. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Prof Youshaa Patel kindly responded to the inquiry regarding this on Twitter stating:

"I did find instances of the term “tashabbuh” in Shi’i Hadith sources but not to the extent to which I found the term employed in Sunni Hadith sources—or in the same contexts. this particular usage in Nahj Al-balagha is very interesting and I should have mentioned it in my book!"

https://twitter.com/dryoushaapatel/status/1805898862118248822

(https://archive.is/3zlJU)

Given this, I think we leave the lead as it is right now but definitely look into Arabic and Persian language religious Shii secondary literature referencing the Path of Eloquence and not the Four Books regarding this to make sure we are not actively misrepresenting different religious sects as more divergent than they are in practice on the matter. Though I am open to the suggestion that you might consider this Original Research and we should rest at first until Western language scientific publications talk about this usage in the Path of Eloquence more. Bari' bin Farangi (talk) 11:38, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Glancing at this discussion, I think it's valid to cite secondary sources that are unfamiliar to English readers (eg Arabic, Persian) to give a fuller picture. That's presumably not OR. No need to directly dispute or correct the Patel source, just skip parts that you consider incomplete or incorrect. ProfGray (talk) 17:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC) ProfGray (talk) 17:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)