User talk:ExplodingCabbage

June 2024[edit]

Hello, I'm FlightTime. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk.

Daily mail is NOT a reliable source - FlightTime (open channel) 22:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, mate. I've spelt out in excruciating detail on that article's Talk page (which I directed readers to in the summary of the edit you reverted) both:

that the article currently includes claims that are sourced from the Daily Mail and not from any other currently cited source, and therefore we cannot simply remove the citations without also removing the claims or else we will leave them uncited, and
that the claims in question ARE republished in non-deprecated sources, but that I think it's inappropriate to cite those sources over the DM in this particular case because their articles are all just plagiarism (in the form of either outright copy-and-paste or else paragraph-by-paragraph close paraphrasing) of the original reporting from the DM, and
that other sources (besides the plagiarists) corroborate much of the DM's reporting in these particular two articles and thus lend them credibility above the baseline for the DM, and
that we therefore face a trilemma: either 1. remove the claims, 2. cite the Daily Mail, or 3. launder a citation to the Daily Mail by citing one of the non-deprecated sources that plagiarised the Daily Mail's article

If you're not going to suggest which fork of that trilemma we should pick, what's the point in touching the issue at all? Ripping out the citation without any further changes just puts the article into an unambiguously unacceptable state where we are repeating claims from the Daily Mail without any supporting citation at all; that obviously needs reverting, and doesn't move us any closer to a final resolution. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 09:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well maybe you don't realize, we have rule and guidelines here. - FlightTime (open channel) 12:56, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And those "rules and guidelines" say we should source information from the Daily Mail but pretend we're not doing so, do they? ExplodingCabbage (talk) 13:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is: stop adding deprecated sources to Wikipedia. No, you haven't come up with another clever hack to put DM links as references into Wikipedia. No, you can't use WP:LOCALCONSENSUS on a talk page or arguing against multiple editors on multiple personal talk pages.

The deprecation of the DM was passed in a broad general RFC, ratified in a second broad general RFC and broadened even further in a third general RFC (the one that found that the DM are such inveterate liars that dailymail.co.uk cannot be trusted as a source for the content of the Daily Mail). You know this already.

If you really want to use DM links as references in the way you are, the place to make your pitch is the place where general RFCs on sourcing are held - that's WP:RSN.

If you are serious in your proposal, take it to WP:RSN. If you aren't serious, keep doing what you're doing - David Gerard (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Let's continue this particular line of discussion in the duplicate thread at User talk:David Gerard#Please stop indiscriminately removing citations of deprecated sources. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 08:44, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you assume ownership of articles, as you did at List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't assumed ownership of anything.

Literally the only thing I have done in that article that has involved overriding any other editors' wishes is revert removals of a Daily Mail citation while information sourced from the Daily Mail remained in the article with no other supporting citation. In each case, I explained why I had done it, spelt out precisely what content was currently sourced from the Daily Mail, pointed the editors to a discussion I'd started about what to do about those particular citations, and made clear, explicitly, that I would not object to the editors removing the citations so long as they also removed the content that was sourced from those Daily Mail articles. My beef with the removals - as I've spelt out every time - was that they falsified the references list by removing a source the article still in fact used. Whatever the merits of making or reverting edits that remove citations of sources an article's content still depends on - and there's an ongoing discussion of that on David's Talk page that I may yet bring to a noticeboard for an outside opinion - it's still the case that the matter could've been resolved instantly if you or David had simply agreed the information sourced from the Daily Mail should be removed and asked me to go ahead and remove it.

Instead we're now in a situation where, for reasons unclear to me and that you have not articulated anywhere, you have reverted us to a version where we're sourcing information from the Daily Mail, despite now-unanimous consensus from three users involved in the discussion on the article's Talk page to rip out anything for which the Mail is the only source, and despite David also agreeing on his Talk page that this should happen.

I suggest you look at your own behaviour. You have undone edits of mine that implemented other users' unopposed suggestions from the Talk page without offering any real explanation of why, while SHOUTING AT ME IN ALL CAPS (and personally insulting me) in your edit summary, and have sneered at my attempts to discuss and contribute on the grounds of me being a new user with few contributions. I don't think I'm the one exhibiting "ownership" behaviour, here. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 09:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you purposefully and blatantly harass other editors. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:20, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drop the fucking stick, or get blocked from editing Wikipedia altogether, your choice! - FlightTime (open channel) 21:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I've harassed anyone, nor do I think I'm continuing a debate beyond its natural end. I certainly haven't harassed anyone "purposefully". For that matter, I don't know who specifically you're suggesting I've harassed (obviously either you, David, or both, but I don't know which) nor what specific debate you're referring to (though obviously it relates to either the fatal dog attacks page or the discussion on David's talk page).

If you want posting this here to be in any way productive, I suggest spelling out what specific actions of mine you find objectionable and why.

And, again, I suggest you look at your own behaviour. You have repeatedly treated me with rudeness and hostility and taken actions targeted at me that I find it difficult to see any justification for. At this point it is probably worth listing them. You:

in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom&direction=next&oldid=1230288420 SHOUTED AT ME in all caps while declining to participate in the ongoing Talk page discussion about the citation you were removing.
when I tried to resolve my dispute with David (and later you) on David's Talk page:
- removed my entire post (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&oldid=1230301302)
- stated falsely in the edit summary that you had explained on my Talk page why you had done that (you hadn't, and never did)
- after I restored the deleted post, voiced your contempt for me on the basis of my being a new user with few edits (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:David_Gerard&oldid=1230386720)
in response to me explaining the circumstances around the Daily Mail citation and seeking input, you simply replied that "we have rule and guidelines here", without offering any constructive suggestion on how you felt the situation should be resolved, nor citing any such rules and guidelines responsive to my argument that using the Daily Mail as an undisclosed source is surely worse than using it with an explicit citation
reverted edits of mine on what you could have seen with a few minutes of scrutiny were unambiguously false grounds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FlightTime#Reverted_edits_to_List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom), even though by doing so you reintroduced reliance on the Daily Mail as a source (which was ostensibly what you objected to in the first place!)
called me a "DISRUPTIVE USER", again in SHOUTING CASE, in the edit summary
falsely marked that edit as a "minor edit", reducing the chance that others watching the page would review it and weigh on the dispute
swore at me here on my Talk page
posted a slew of (IMO false) accusations on this page - that I have assumed ownership of articles, harassed other users, and failed to "drop the stick" after an argument had run its course - all without pointing to the actions that you think constitute any of these things or explaining your position
threatened that I will be blocked from editing Wikipedia
accused me of edit warring and demanded I stop making edits without achieving consensus, even though my edits have been implementing already-achieved consensus from discussions in the article's Talk page which you have repeatedly declined to participate in

All of this is unpleasant and unconstructive, and it strikes me as far more reasonably characterizable as "harassment" than anything I have done. Do you really think, after looking over that list of actions, that you have treated me in a way that is acceptable and constructive? ExplodingCabbage (talk) 11:39, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass other editors again, as you did at User talk:FlightTime, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. - FlightTime (open channel) 13:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. - FlightTime (open channel) 13:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wdit warring[edit]

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. - FlightTime (open channel) 21:09, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:FlightTime#Reverted_edits_to_List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom. Every single edit was implementing the requests of other users on the Talk page, and the justification you gave for reverting them in the edit summary (that they were unsourced OR) was unambigously factually false. If you want to undo my good faith, sourced, consensus-implementing edits, then you should go the Talk page and explain what you think is wrong with them. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 11:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

June 2024[edit]

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 2 weeks for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ExplodingCabbage, I'd normally recommend discussion and limit the block in a way that allows you to still discuss the matter on talk pages, but I'm afraid that this would encourage sealioning and a failure or refusal to "get the point". ~ ToBeFree (talk) 13:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that it will be another admin who reviews my appeal below, but I am really, really curious what you perceive to be going on in this "edit war" that warrants blocking me and not blocking @FlightTime.

I kind of suspect you have read the prior argument about the merits of keeping the Daily Mail citations (temporarily or otherwise) and made some wrong assumptions about the situation at the time that you blocked me. Did you understand that the previous argument about whether to cite the Daily Mail in the article had run its course on the Talk page, consensus had been reached to eliminate both the Mail citations and any information sourced from the Mail, and that then I went ahead and implemented that, both removing the citations and variously removing or re-sourcing the claims? And that the removal of information from the Mail is what @FlightTime then reverted?

Did you understand that the "edit war" warning @FlightTime added to my Talk page was added (after the end of the dispute about whether to keep the Daily Mail citations had already been resolved and there was no further prospect of the citations being re-added) was added pre-emptively by @FlightTime when he first reverted those changes and reintroduced content from the Daily Mail - accusing me of engaging in an edit war before I had yet made even a single revert as part of that alleged war?

Were you aware that before doing my one and only revert of @FlightTime's revert, I spelt out in excruciating detail on his Talk page why his stated reason for reverting (that my changes were unsourced) was false - literally listing every claim I'd added and the citation in the article that corroborated it - and his response was to delete that from his Talk page, accuse me here of harassing him by making the post, and then re-revert my changes (and reintroduce the Daily Mail claims yet again) with an entirely new, equally inapplicable and unexplained edit summary?

Blocking me in these circumstances - rather than blocking the editor cycling through blatantly false justifications for reverting changes agreed on in the Talk page and then deleting discussion about it - just seems nuts to me, and makes me think you are under some misapprehension about what was going on. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 17:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

ExplodingCabbage (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

There was no justification for this block in the first place. The edits I was blocked for were clearly beneficial, implemented the consensus reached after discussion on the article's talk page, and were reverted on false, bad faith grounds by an editor who - despite my best efforts - refuses to engage in any meaningful discussion about them and who has over the past several days engaged in a pattern of abusive behaviour towards me. Furthermore, after initially making those edits, I only reintroduced them once, and only after outlining clearly on the reverting user's Talk page that his asserted reason for reverting them (that they were unsourced) was false and inviting him to discuss any other objections. This was likely incorrectly perceived by the blocking admin as me continuing an "Edit war" because when the other editor first reverted my changes, after I first made them, he immediately and pre-emptively edited a warning onto my Talk page accusing me of engaging in an edit war; in reality I had just introduced the contested changes for the first time, and went on to revert their removal only once, only after attempting to start a discussion about them, and with even more sources added to attempt to address the complaint that they were unsourced. I do not see how reimplementing a set of reverted changes once, with further improvements to address the ostensible concerns of the reverter, and only after posting at great length to explain why the reason given for reverting them in the first place was false, can possibly constitute "edit warring" or justify a block. I should be unblocked and either allowed to go ahead and reimplement those changes - which have the support of those who have discussed them on the article's Talk page and for which no good objection has so far been raised - or else at least allowed to take the matter to dispute resolution. (If directed by the unblocking admin to refrain from editing the article for now and post in dispute resolution, I will follow that direction. However, it is not clear to me that this would be wise direction to give since the other party refuses to engage in discussion about the edits and has made clear that they view continuing to discuss them as harassment; certainly going to dispute resolution will be seen as further "harassment". Another approach may be preferable.)

More detail:

The changes that triggered @FlightTime to warn me for "edit warring" (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom&diff=1230418265&oldid=1230300962) and the reimplementation of those changes after they were reverted that finally triggered this block (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom&oldid=1230549661) both implemented consensus, reached unopposed on the article's Talk page, to:

1. remove, or else re-source, claims for which the Daily Mail was the only source, and

2. use a consistent style for the "Date" column in the table in the article (which previously was inconsistent about listing either the date when the victim was attacked or the date when they died)

To date, @FlightTime - the editor who has repeatedly reverted these changes - has not articulated any coherent, truthful objection to these changes, despite my multiple attempts to engage. Instead he has sworn at and threatened me here on my Talk page and accused me of a slew of offences including harassment. Multiple users have agreed that these changes should happen; the only opposition is his, and he is unwilling to engage in any sensible discussion about it.

His reverts of my changes, and his untruthful justifications for them in edit summaries, occurred in the context of a pattern of abusive actions towards me and false statements - CTRL-F on my Talk page for "You have repeatedly treated me with rudeness and hostility" to see a list - and he gave entirely false reasons for them in his edit summaries on both occasions, first claiming (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom&oldid=1230463057) that my edits were unsourced OR and next (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom&oldid=1230566485) that they are "POV trolling". Prior to reverting the edit claiming my changes were unsourced OR, I posted on his Talk page listing every change of mine that he had reverted and the cited sources that corroborated it (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FlightTime&oldid=1230549833#Reverted_edits_to_List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom); his response to this was simply to delete my post and adding an "only warning" here characterising that post as purposeful and blatant harassment. As for the claim that my edits are "POV trolling", I think that simply glancing at them will show that this is not the case; there is no contentious political or ideological content to them at all.

For me to be the one being blocked in these circumstances, when I have spent many hours and great amounts of effort trying to engage in any meaningful discussion of the article with @FlightTime, strikes me as an obvious injustice that in no way benefits the article in question. This block should never have been issued. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

This is one of the longest unblock requests for a two week block I have ever seen in my 6 years as an admin. No, I didn't read it all. This request justifies the block, instead of showing why it should be removed. 331dot (talk) 19:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

I feel confirmed in not making it a partial block. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's depressing. I guess what I'm hearing here is: keep talk page stuff short and focused only on the most important points, or risk being written off as a loon by everyone who reads it. Well, noted for 2 weeks' time. ExplodingCabbage (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]