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Ely Cathedral

I am not disagreeing with your edit, but it does duplicate a wikilink in the first paragraph of the same 'Later' section and the text now reads: " in an ornate Decorated style with flowing tracery " which, grammatically, should be one of the following:

• in an ornate, decorated style...
• in an ornately decorated style... or
• in an ornate, "Decorated" style... if you retain the wikilink for "Decorated"

Emerald (talk) 18:01, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

I disagree fundamentally that there is any need for quotation marks or a comma. The capital is adequate to determine the function of the word "Decorated" and the adjective "ornate" qualifies the entire expression "Decorated style".

Have you seen the discussion on the talk page for the article? My view is that the original wording was perfectly good, including the "very". I did not introduce the link; I merely restored it.

LynwoodF (talk) 18:56, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Okay, if you can live with inconsistencies within the same section over the word Decorated then I can! Emerald (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Hope not Hate

I'm just curious, why are you so condescending in your messages on wiki edits? Maybe you should stop coming across as some grandeur individual. We're not all perfect and neither are you my friend. You make the wiki experience so bitter and depressing for others. --Attractel (talk) 20:39, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Savannah, Georgia

Anonymous editor 156.61.250.250 continues to revert the founding date of Savannah, and is even resorting to insults (see recent edits under "Savannah"). As he/she has pretty much broken every rule of Wikipedia decorum, this will probably go to a Wikipedia administrator for resolution. You are free to weigh in if you like. Thanks.Mason.Jones (talk) 15:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Mason.Jones. I think you realize that my sympathy is with you in this matter. We know nothing about this editor and I cannot understand why anyone who is serious about editing WP would not register and gain the various benefits that affords. On the other hand you tell us that you have lived in Savannah, so I imagine you have some knowledge of the subject. He/she accuses you of edit warring, but before that remark was posted, I had already formed the opinion that he/she was edit warring against you.

In my view the MOS is not a set of hard and fast rules, but a manual of guidance. In any case, I have long taken the view that rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise. I am an old man and over the years I have discovered that there is very little in life which is cut and dried. This matter is a good illustration of that point. LynwoodF (talk) 16:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Appreciate your reply. Thanks, Mason.Jones (talk) 02:10, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Etymology

Discussion below copied from Talk:Strasbourg#Etymology:

An anonymous edit without an edit summary was claiming a Greek origin for the element -bourg or -burg. It is certainly cognate with English borough and may well also be cognate with a similar Greek word, but I have no evidence that it is derived from Greek. I have undone what is no doubt a good-faith, but naïve edit. LynwoodF (talk) 19:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Hey LynwoodF, I will try to help you on the matter, the etymologists are still arguing whether the word has Latin or Germanic roots. If fact the word Burgus was used by germanics and Latino roughly with the same pronunciation to designated in both case a castle, or "place forte". The word really started to spread out with the Franks (Charlemagne) and the use of old French especially with the song of Roland that was one of the first song written in old French and that spread quickly in whole Europe . Is at this time that the word started to spread and some new signification appeared like Bourgeois ( the man from the Bourg/burg) and that numerous towns in Germany and France stated to bear the word Bourg in the name of the town ( Cherbourg, Lanslebourg, Bourg en Bresse, Strasbourg, Lauterbourg Cabourg, Luxembourg, Lunenburg, Hamburg etc.... Anyway, still now scientists are still arguing its possible origin, but it seems attested that the Roland song was really on the point to spread the word thoughout western and mittel Europa. I guess the word " borough" might be an "anglicisation" of the term.... Another mystery to resolve https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourg if you can read French --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 00:09, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello, ‎Gabriel Haute Maurienne. The point I was making three or four years ago was that someone had naïvely added the words "from Greek πύργος" to the etymology. Now the element "burg" and its variants exist in a wide range of Germanic languages and there is no reason to suppose that they got there from Greek.

Looking at this from a neutral point of view – I am English-born, but lived for some years in France and have studied Romance linguistics – I am inclined to the view that you have been reading some rather francocentric etymologists. I see no evidence of "burgus" in Classical Latin and it seems most likely that it got into Late Latin as a result of the Germanic migrations of the fifth century. The word exists in Old English as "burg" or "burh" and occurs as an element in numerous place names. For example, the name of the city of Salisbury in Wiltshire is attested over 100 years before the Song of Roland is thought to have been composed and even longer before its widespread popularity. The spelling "borough" is rather fanciful. We actually say /bʌrə/.

The origin of the name of Strasbourg is clearly Germanic. The city was very much a part of Germany throughout the Middle Ages and became part of France in 1681. Since then it has changed hands several times and when I lived there about 55 years ago the principal language of the city was Alsatian, an Allemanic variety of Upper German. Since then French has taken over almost completely. I have seen something similar happening with Brussels during my lifetime. It is still officially bilingual, but has become overwhelmingly French-speaking. Years ago we used to reckon it was approx. 80% French-speaking and 20% Dutch-speaking. ("Flemish" is just the Belgian name for Dutch – in both Belgium and the Netherlands it is officially called "Nederlands".) LynwoodF (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi LynwoodF, this is really disappointing. I just sum up some info trying to talk about the origin of the terminology of Bourg/burg. I never made a comment about Strabourg precisely. Furthermore I never said that the word was French, even more surprising, I never talked about Stasbourg as having French name origin. I recall giving city names from France and Germany like Lunenburg or Hamburg to illustrate the spread on the use in both countries. I never stated from which side it definitely came from. I just said that it is probably during the Charlemagne era that the terminology spread (and as far as I'm concerned, back then France nor Germany didn't exist), I never said neither that it was the starting point to the word, and that cities would start to adopt the term all of a sudden (the Roland Song mentioned the term so, it existed prior of the song, I took this fact for obvious.).... I said or I meant if you prefer, that it was one of the first time that the term was specified, and the notoriety of this song was probably a vector to increase the spread. What the heck the French speaking evolution of Bruxelles is related to the origin and use on Bourg/burg? I end my edit saying that the mystery is still to find. And for the history of Alsace (since you open your comment by your place of origin), being Alsatian by my mother, and my family being traced back to the 13th century around Surbourg, I really don't need a refresh of the history of the region. And for your comment about Strabourg being part of "Germany" during the middle age, I'm sure that you are aware that it is a little bit more complex (eg the proclamation in Versailles in 1871). Furthermore during the middle age, the Holy Roman Empire, was spread up to some parts of Italy, Savoie, Burgundy, eastern Belgium and many region in Central Europe. So it is not as simple as you say. But I'm surprised, at first I candidly thought that the question was just about a discussion about the origin of the terminology Bourg/burg. But thank you for your "neutral point of view"--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 12:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Le plus surprenant en regardant ton profil c'est que tu es probablement francophile (on n'apprend pas le francais, et on n'affiche pas les armoiries du Dauphiné par hasard). Aussi j'imagine que ma contribution à été perdue dans la traduction. Mon intervention était liée uniquement au mot bourg, sans lien direct avec la ville dont est liée la page de discussion. Bonne continuation --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 13:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello again, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. I am sorry if I misunderstood your previous post. I was originally commenting specifically on the element "-bourg" in the name of the city of Strasbourg. It seemed naïve to attribute a Greek origin to this when the element was so widespread in Germanic languages. When I used the expression "part of Germany", I meant that it was in that part of the Holy Roman Empire which was known as the Kingdom of Germany and in the area which was linguistically and culturally German.

I looked at the article in French WP about the word "bourg" and I see that the Greek origin theory is not widely held, although I would be happy with the notion that the Greek word could be cognate with the Germanic word.

As for Brussels, I merely mentioned it in passing, because during my lifetime I have seen an advance in the use of French in both Strasbourg and Brussels. French is continuing to expand, just as English is advancing in parts of the British Isles where it was very much a second language until relatively recently. However, in recent decades the minority languages in the UK have been fighting to avoid extinction.

I would not describe myself specifically as a Francophile. I have lived in England, Scotland and France and have travelled widely in the Low Countries and elsewhere in Europe. Over the years I have discovered that, despite superficial differences, people are very much the same. LynwoodF (talk) 14:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Re LynwoodF étant donné que cette partie de la discussion n'est pas liée à l'article, permet moi de te répondre en francais puisque tu le maîtrise sans doute mieux que moi l'anglais. Pour l'origine grecque, je pense, mais je n'ai pas de certitude ni de source, que c'est probablement lié à la version qui soutient l'origine latine du terme. Partant de là, il est techniquement possible d'arguer de la réflexion suivante: étant donné que de nombreux mots latins viennent du grec, il est probable que bourg en provienne également toujours selon cette théorie. A croire les hellénophones, toutes les langues viennent du grec 😜. Enfin pour le déclin de certaines langues régionales frontalières, si beaucoup ne faisait pas le raccourci entre racine du dialecte parlé = nationalité je suis sûr que leur statut se porterait bien mieux. Ce n'est pas un hasard si de nombreux dialectes germaniques ont drastiquement régressé après les deux guerres mondiales, ou certains ont justifié leurs annexions territoriale unilatérales forcées sur ce simple critère. Enfin si tu jettes un œil sur les deux discussions que j'ai en ce moment, tu constateras que certains semblent mélanger réalité et fantasmes de grandeurs, quitte à inventer des sources qui s'autoalimentent. Amicalement --Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 15:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Hello again, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. You are welcome to address me in French. I still read it easily, but since I gave up travelling for health reasons, I find it harder to compose text in French, especially as I do not have a suitable keyboard. I have lost a lot of vocabulary and find myself making grammatical mistakes I would not have made 30 years ago.

As you suggested, I looked at your talk page on French WP and I see that you have an anonymous correspondent with a tendency to be unreasonable. You have my sympathy. I have had encounters with people who do not wish to be persuaded.

There was a reason for putting the arms of the Dauphin on my user page. Two television historians (who should have been more careful) independently described the future Louis VIII as "the Dauphin". You probably know that he was once proclaimed King of England, a fact which was not taught to us when I was at school. Given that you come from nearby, I expect you know that at the time when Louis lived, the Dauphiné was still effectively an independent state within the Kingdom of Arles, which was part of the Holy Roman Empire. I was similarly irritated when a historian speaking on the radio read an extract from a 14th-century chronicle which described a man as coming from "Hainaut in Germany", and then unwisely commented, "So they got that wrong." The chronicler was in fact precisely right.

Best wishes, LynwoodF (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

En effet LynwoodF, le plus dur est souvent de trouver des interlocuteurs raisonnables qui veulent bien échanger. J'ai eu de grosses envolées également sur l'article sur la langue Allemande sur la page de discussion anglaise. Ou il semble qu'une collection de drapeau de pays est plus important que la réalité. Par exemple insister pour faire figurer la slovaquie dans l'info box alors que le nombre total de locuteurs reconnus, concernent deux municipalités avec 89 locuteurs de langue allemande en totalité (communes à facilité), à un moment figurait également Togo et Cameroun (aussi je me surprend à me demander si tout cela ne contient pas une part de nostalgie). Plus dérangeant, voir totalement contraires aux règles éthiques, faire figurer en source .. wikipedia pour un article sur le nombre de germanophones dans une région du Brésil. Et pour conforter le tout on insère comme seconde référence une simple demande de création d'ISO qui pour justifier du nombre de locuteurs mentionne à son tour Wikipedia. Aussi il est très important de faire attention aux références, les lires et de ne pas prendre Wikipedia pour une source d'information infaillible. Et pour faire une dernière aparté sur l'Alsace, nous sommes et nous nous sentons français, nous avons combattu pour la révolution française, Mulhouse a voté librement son rattachement à la France, la région à donné nos meilleurs généraux pour la France (Kellermann, Kléber et tant d'autres) nous avons protesté contre l'annexion de l'Allemagne en 1871 (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Député_protestataire), l'affaire de Saverne https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incident_de_Saverne, et bien sur l'annexion et l'incorporation forcée dans l'armée nazi. On a du "s'engager", avec menace de mort sur la famille en cas de refus, et fini exterminé sur le front de l'est pour un pays, et une guerre qui n'était pas la notre. Marcel Weinum a 16 ans a créé le premier réseau de résistance en Alsace, il a fini décapité a 18 ans à Stuttgart. Et bien souvent on se heurte aux raccourcis presque raciste assimilant dialectes germaniques à la nationalité allemande. Nous sommes fiers d'être français (ça peut surprendre dans ces temps de francophobie internationale) et c'est fatiguant de toujours avoir à se justifier ma grand mère a toujours porté la cocarde tricolore sur son habit traditionnel et s'est fait enterrée avec. Sinon pour le Dauphiné c'est effectivement proche de ma région, mais comme tu le sais, la Savoie a été un duché indépendant jusqu'à son annexion en 1860, aussi nous n'avions pas de liens étroit avec le Dauphiné, nous étions tourné vers l'Autriche, et la Bavière.la France en ce temps là était probablement notre plus grand ennemi. Et sinon tu vis ou maintenant??--Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk) 13:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Continuation of above discussion

Hello yet again, Gabriel Haute Maurienne. I hope you found this easily.

I lived in Strasbourg about 15 years after the end of World War II and I recall that people were proud of their French nationality and objected to their language being referred to as German. They insisted that it was "Alsacien". I met only one Alsatian who advocated the incorporation of Alsace into Germany. Most people I knew were totally bilingual, but I did know one older man who, although a French citizen, spoke no French and so communicated with me through his bilingual wife. I only ever acquired a smattering of Alsatian dialect, useful for shopping.

The year 1860 is firmly fixed in my mind as the year when France acquired more or less its present shape, although you would probably remind me of several adjustments to the border with Italy during the 1940s. So I appreciate that the history of Savoy is very different from that of the Dauphiné.

A few words about me. Having lived in two other places in England, one in Scotland and four in France, I came to live in Kingston upon Thames in the south-west of Greater London and have lived in the same street, although not at the same address, for nearly 50 years. I earned my living as an accountant for some years, but at heart I am a historical linguist (or linguistic historian – I have never been sure which expression is preferable). At university I specialized in the linguistics of the Iberian peninsula.

Best wishes, LynwoodF (talk) 22:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, you did well to change the location of the discussion. For the territories changes after 1947, Savoie was in front line. The former duchy recovered several part of her territory that were ceded to Italy during the 1860 annexion because of a lack of knowledge of the border by the French back then.. The traité de Paris allowed us to take back those historical Savoyard lands. I'm particularly concerned since the change of border directly modified the shape of my commune, with the regain of the Mont-Cenis plateau. (My county regained its original size). The plateau was dangerous for us since the Italian army was able to concentrate large amounts of men and guns just above our villages. During the Second World War, the Germans destroyed and burnt all our villages to the ground. As for Alsace after the war it was a mess, and the population was traumatised by the incorporation de force. It is kind of pathetic, Germany attacked 3 times, it seems that their government was always asking for more. And now the country has lost all of her eastern provinces. They could have been satisfied with the 1871 gains, but since then they kept increase their military power and updating each year their war plans towards France [ https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Schlieffen]. Their main goal was to gain more French territory (see the septemberprogramm [1] that was already prepared in September 1914). Some major historians especially Germans affirm that their country tried to attack France well before 1914.[2] The different crisis that appeared before, like in 1875, of after the coup d'Agadir or the Saverne Affaire were attempts to enter in conflict before the fully militarisation of Russia, the new French allié. We will be forever very grateful for the British help. For the French all that really counted during WWI was the reintegration of the lost provinces in the Republic. since the creation of Modern France, Alsatian politicians and military were always on the front scene (Kléber, Kellerman Schoelcher etc), The history is sometimes very funny, the regain of the region was greatly boosted by a letter written by Bismark and Willem in 1871 in answer to the begging of the French government not to take Alsace Moselle away from France. [3]. Imperatrice Eugenie gave to Clemenceau the missive in 1917. The letter dated from 1871 still in the national archives, and signed by the two German politicians stipulates that they did not considered Alsace as a German territory, but was only used as glacis militaire in order to prevent a rapid attack from the French to the Rhine. :) Anyway, we are French for more than 3 centuries now (net after in annexion of 48 years by Germany), and we are upset with the reflexions of some people that don't know us well and saying: because they have a German dialect, then they are not French. But all of that is ancient history, during our first exchange you told me about the French point of view. It is always interesting to see both side of the story, I hope that they are some details that you did'nt know, since you are interested by the local history. Sometime we learn only one version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabriel Haute Maurienne (talk • contribs) 00:23, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

I have had a few very busy days, but I am now getting back seriously to WP. Having been retired for many years, I cannot imagine how I ever had time to go to work!

Thank you for the additional information. I thought you would know more than I did about the boundary adjustments of the 1940s and I was particularly interested to learn of the strategic importance of the Mont Cenis plateau. This reminded me of the importance of the Golan Heights in the Israel-Syria conflict of 1967. What you say about the attitude of the Alsatians towards Germany is in accordance with what I remember. They had been part of France for nearly two centuries by 1871 and by and large were happy to be part of it again. Thinking about that one young man who advocated reunion with Germany, I recall that he looked very much like a typical northern German, so I wonder whether his family had moved to Alsace during the Prussian period and he still had family connections somewhere deep inside Germany. Anyway, he was certainly an exception. I do not recall his surname – that might have given a clue.

Best wishes, LynwoodF (talk) 15:11, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Frida Kahlo, Paul Nash, etc

Wow, LynwoodF! thanks for dropping Paul Nash's name, whom I knew nothing about, very interesting ! I wish my late dad, a German surrealist painter, had seen this. maybe he knew about him. the article you wrote about your neighborhood too, nice one. you and I have definitely have something to talk about. i feel a kindred spirit, history languages and language maps, yeah. even though this may not be evident from the articles I edit and create, which are on the hard science and economic-political side. cant continue now, just wanted to drop this note of, whatever, call it wikiloving. have been named an "involved party" at arbcom, and i never wanted to get involved in such stuff, as a content writer! need to draft a statement. cheers,--Wuerzele (talk) 19:43, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Wuerzele. I am glad I have been able to introduce you to Paul Nash. In my opinion he was a superb artist, but of course I am biased, given that he is our local painter in the area where I grew up. Although he was an official war artist, it is pretty clear that he hated war, as indeed I do. I am very glad that the countries of Europe cooperate with each other these days.

Like you, I would not be keen to get involved in a dispute, but I would have supported a fellow editor in a dispute which was developing over Savannah, Georgia. He has lived in Savannah and was talking sense. I hope this one goes well for you.

LynwoodF (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

McRae-Helena, Georgia

What is it? It's not an article, not a disambig or redirect. I believ ethat the article should be written.Xx236 (talk) 07:41, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Xx236, I agree with you and I left a message on the talk page to that effect. The point of putting the soft redirects on the new page was to give people coming from List of municipalities in Georgia (U.S. state)‎ a means of finding information about the two constituent cities until such time as a new article was written. LynwoodF (talk) 10:20, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:23, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Ian Paisley

Re this edit - despite the name of the office of "deputy First Minister", Martin McGuinness was not Ian Paisley's deputy in the latter's role as First Minster. The two offices are a diarchy with equal power. --Kwekubo (talk) 14:36, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Let's go along with your version, then, and see if anyone raises an objection. I shall undo my own edit. LynwoodF (talk) 15:41, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing it. --Kwekubo (talk) 17:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

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