User talk:Piano40

Welcome!

Hello, Piano40, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions.

I noticed that one of the first articles you edited appears to be dealing with a topic with which you may have a conflict of interest. In other words, you may find it difficult to write about that topic in a neutral and objective way, because you are, work for, or represent, the subject of that article. Your recent contributions may have already been undone for this very reason.

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, visit the Teahouse, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{Help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, thanks for the message. I can't see how to use your talk page. I couldn't see where to add anything "at the bottom of the page". There was nowhere to input a question. Relating to the article I've submitted for approval, a wiki biog page on the UK saxophonist/composer Jon Lloyd, it is true I play with Jon, but firstly he has other projects and secondly I don't stand to gain anything by this article. I am merely trying to fill a gap in Wikipedia, adding some information about a highly regarded jazz artist who currently doesn't exist on Wiki. the fact that I have been involved with him musically means I am very familiar with his life and music. I tried to be objective and present quotes to back up what I wrote. Is there any way you can suggest I might improve this article and can you help me to get it approved? Thanks. John Piano40 (talk) 11:54, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, did you receive my reply to you (above)? I didn't know how to reply on your talk page, so I replied here. Or maybe the original message to me wasn't sent by a real person but was automatically generated, by a bot or something? I'm a bit confused and unsure how to proceed. I tried genuinely to put together an honest article for Wiki but I don't know now what to do next. Piano40 (talk) 22:09, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, did you receive my two messages? Piano40 (talk) 21:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

I cannot understand why you can't edit my talk page, it's not protected so you should be able to edit it just as you have your own here. I won't see a message on this page unless you start it with my username, User:Jimfbleak and sign it with four tildes ~~~~ in the same edit. That will send me an alert.

Thank you for declaring your relationship with him. Even if you are not recompensed, you still need to declare your conflict of interest on the article talk page. Your title was wrong, Saxophonist/Composer are not part of his name and aren't proper nouns. Better Jon Lloyd (musician)

When you write about a person

you must provide independent verifiable sources to enable us to verify the facts and show that they meet the notability guidelines. Sources that are not acceptable include those linked to the person or an associated organisation, press releases, YouTube, IMDB, social media and other sites that can be self-edited, blogs, websites of unknown or non-reliable provenance, and sites that are just reporting what the person claims or interviewing them. Note that references should be in-line so we can tell what fact each is supporting, and should not be bare urls.

Most of your text is unsourced, and the refs you do give seem to be mainly reviews. His notability, as linked above doesn't depend on whether people like his work, and having cherry-picked reviews instead of real independent third-party refs just looks promotional.

we can't verify notability without proper refs, and you need to show how he meets the notability criteria rather than just present us with "Jon did this, and then he did that"

You must write in a non-promotional tone. Articles must be neutral and encyclopaedic, with verifiable facts, not opinions or reviews.

I've mentioned reviews, and you also seem to give your opinions as fact eg Throughout this time he 'steadily gained a reputation as an individualistic free jazz alto and soprano saxophonist

There shouldn't be any url links in the article, only in the "References" or "External links" sections.
You must not copy text from elsewhere. Copyrighted text is not allowed in Wikipedia, as outlined in this policy. That applies even to pages created by you or your organisation, unless they state clearly and explicitly that the text is public domain. We require that text posted here can be used, modified and distributed for any purpose, including commercial; text is considered to be copyright unless explicitly stated otherwise. There are ways to donate copyrighted text to Wikipedia, as described here; please note that simply asserting on the talk page that you are the owner of the copyright, or you have permission to use the text, isn't sufficient.
Not a reason for deletion, but it was badly lacking in wikilinks. We have articles for saxophone, jazz, music, composer and so on...

Before attempting to write an article again, please make sure that the topic meets the notability criteria linked above, and check that you can find independent third party sources. Also read Your first article. If you are writing about yourself, or someone you know as a friend, colleague, client, employer or relative, you have a conflict of interest, and you must disclose the nature of that COI. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:03, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak Thanks for the detailed reply.

So is there any point in my trying to re-write and re-submit the article? I mean even if I also do the DOI. Does my close working relationship with the subject discount me from writing and submitting a biog like this? If it does not then I might try and re-write, working along the lines you suggest and trying to address the bullet points you have made. I'm not sure I can find enough independent sources for reviews and quotes, ones that still exist online. That might then invalidate the article. Not quite sure how to proceed. Also, would you be so kind as to point out the copyright text I used? he text you say I copied from another source...

Thanks.

Piano40 (talk) 21:25, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak

Re your not understanding why I can't edit your Talk page, maybe I'm totally misunderstanding this, but when I click on your Talk page User talk:Jimfbleak I see nowhere where I can input any text. There is no section for adding text. I can see none at all. I would show you what it looks like for me, but I don't think I can attach a screenshot to this reply can I?

Piano40 (talk) 21:32, 24 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

More

You edit my page the same way, presumably, as you do this page. click the "edit" tab, write something at the bottom with a heading and a signature, click "Publish".

I won't see what you write here unless you do as I suggested in the first para of my previous post here, I just came back to check. I included the copyright bit for completeness, I didn't check, so no accusation involved

Having a conflict of interest doesn't stop you writing an article, you just have to be transparent about it. You said "I can find enough independent sources for reviews and quotes", they are exactly what we don't want. His notability doesn't depend on what people think of his work, and quotes will either be him talking about himself or a reviewer talking about his work. What we need is real facts that show why he meets notability guidelines for music, such as recording contracts, awards, chart placings and mentions of his work in reputable publications. Have a look at Elmo Hope or Wynton Kelly ⋅Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:33, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak

There's no 'Edit' tab on your Talk page. Only, after various entries, options to 'Edit source'. I don't think I want to be doing that, do I??

Confused...

Piano40 (talk) 13:51, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edit source is fine, if that's what you're seeing, and, as I keep saying, I won't automatically see a message on this page unless you start it with my username, User:Jimfbleak and sign it with four tildes ~~~~ in the same edit. That will send me an alert. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:13, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you are seeing editing options, go to Preferences (at the top of the page ->'Editing tab, down to the editing mode and select which editing options you wish to see. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:20, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak I did use 'User:Jimfbleak and sign with the four ~'s! See above

Piano40 (talk) 15:27, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User name needs to be linked, so in the edit area you type [[User:Jimfbleak]] as you see it here, and when you press "publish" you see User:Jimfbleak with the blue link, just like the blue link to the talk page in your signature Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:37, 25 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak I see! Like I just did! Then presumably I can continue here, in this thread, rather than editing at source on your Talk page (I couldn't see any preferences to change the Edit options, as you suggested) can't I? Unless you're getting sick of replying to me about my attempted article... But that would presumably be the same situation on your Talk page, so I may as well carry on directing any queries here, I guess.

Piano40 (talk) 11:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, best to keep it all in one place. Take your time, writing an acceptable article with proper refs isn't easy, as you have discovered. The only other consequence of your COI is that you should write it as a draft at Draft:Jon Lloyd (musician) and submit it for review when you are ready Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:jimfbleak so do I need to start a totally new version and thus lose all my previous work, or can I re-write the first version and somehow tag on a COI to it?

Piano40 (talk) 18:50, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored your text to User:Piano40/Jon Lloyd, take a copy as there is no guarantee that it won't be deleted again. You can declare your COI on its talk page with {{Connected contributor|User1= Piano40}}, which will create an appropriate declaration Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:44, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak Thanks!

Piano40 (talk) 14:05, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak I don't understand what you mean by you've "moved the page to Jon Lloyd (musician) and tagged its talk page". Does this mean the page is live or it isn't? I don't think the page comes up automatically with he search 'Jon Lloyd'. You need to actually type 'Jon Lloyd (musician)'

Is the re-written text acceptable or are there still changes to be made? Is the COI sorted out? (I see that on the Talk page someone - you? - has already added this COI disclaimer; does that mean I don't have to add anything further?)

Sorry if a lot of this doesn't make sense to me...

Piano40 (talk) 10:29, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Piano40[reply]

I added the COI because it seemed simpler than telling you what to do. I assumed you were asking how to move the page to article space, so I did that, it can't remain as a draft indefinitely anyway. I removed two inappropriate refs to Wikipedia and Discogs, you need if possible to replace those and sort any other unreferenced text. There are several other John Lloyds with articles, so the occupation is necessary. It may take a while before the search box catches up Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:07, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:Jimfbleak Thanks. Re the "two inappropriate refs to Wikipedia and Discogs" I'm a bit confused here as well. I saw that there were two refs (the Discogs one and no. 10 the Ubuntu press release one) that were coming up red and highlighted as having errors. I didn't realise the Discogs one was 'inappropriate". Why is that? As I left it last I'd 'sorted out' those two red link issues by adding the correct url to no. 10 and adding the correct title to the Discogs one. But I'd better check, because you may have removed the latter.

Piano40 (talk) 12:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Piano40[reply]

User:Jimfbleak Ah I think I understand why the Discogs one was in appropriate. In my efforts to find an online reference I'd merely referenced a website for selling the CD, which I guess doesn't amount to information so much as trying to drive readers to buy the CD. Unintentional on my part but I'm guessing that was the issue...

Piano40 (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Piano40[reply]

Also it's a self-written source. If you look back to the first bullet point in "Reply" above, it lists the type of sources that won't be accepted. It's not comprehensive, but it gives an idea. Sales sites and similar are also not OK. I run a script that colour codes references by accepatbility, so it's hard for me to miss dodgy sources Jimfbleak - talk to me? 13:43, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:JimfbleakDo you know why the article doesn't (yet) appear when you search Wiki for Jon Lloyd? Not in Jon Lloyd disambiguation either...

Piano40 (talk) 14:21, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Piano40[reply]

User:Jimfbleak Oh actually you answered my last query above. It may take a while before the search box catches up...

Piano40 (talk) 15:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)Piano40[reply]

License tagging for File:Jon Lloyd by David Burgess.jpeg

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