User talk:Rangeley/Archive 2

Bill Slavick

If you are up for it, I added an article about Bill Slavick, an Independent Candidate for the Maine Senate.If you could take a look and help polish it, I would appreciate it.I am not good with sourcing.Most of the information comes directly from the candidate's own literature.mitchsensei

I will look in to it. Rangeley 16:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Who am I?

Since you bothered to ask a question, I guess I should answer. As far as you are concerned, I am someone that has seen your editing efforts as suppression of fact (which in fact they have been). I suspect you are a sockpuppet or paid propagandist of some kind, despite your stated interests (most or all of which I share). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.43.35.97 (talk • contribs)

Olympia Snow

Thanks for fixing the link, I was going back to it, and you had already fixed it.mitchsensei

No problem, Ive been keeping track of that article since the primaries. Rangeley 06:57, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

2003 invasion of Iraq

I'm watching that page and I think your edits are good. Merecat 04:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, its getting rather annoying (along with the Iraq War article). I wish there was a way to lock just that portion so people would stop messing with it. Rangeley 05:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Just now, I made a 3RR report on Gulliver. I think he's a vandal troll. Look at his edits. Merecat 05:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea, he has made 4 edits that were all reverted in the article so far. Rangeley 05:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to drop in and say your reasoning persuaded me to do furthur research and I came across the actual resolution through a website THOMAS: Librabry of Congress from there you can look up"H.J.Res.114 - Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Enrolled as Agreed to or Passed by Both House and Senate)" The terminology "War on Terror" is used 2x in the document. I have since changed my vote without removing the old one, not sure if I should. Just stated I changed the vote from the one below. I do not agree politically with it, but factually you were indeed correct. --Zer0faults 22:52, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, and rather then remove your first vote, just strike it out, I dont know how to show the code without it striking something out, so just edit this post to get it that way. Rangeley 22:56, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You can use <nowiki> ~~~~ etc.</nowiki> to show code. Añoranza 07:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Please refrain from removing content from Wikipedia, as you did to 2003 invasion of Iraq. It is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Imroy 02:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

RfC

If you haven't done so yet, please go to: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Merecat right away and add your perspective. Merecat 17:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

your voted needed

Please go here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rationales to impeach George W. Bush (2nd nomination). I voted for delete. You may also want to (if that's your preference). Merecat 08:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Warning

Removing NPOV tags is a gross offense of wikipedia policy. As are your repeated personal attacks. Stop immediately. De mortuis... 01:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Removing of the NPOV tag was unintentional, I was restoring content that was removed (from an old version) and did not think to add the tag. For this I apologize, however, I do not beleive I have ever personally attacked you or anyone else. If I have, please show me where so I can adjust my behavior. Rangeley 01:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, your second scalp. Two articles protected now to stop your edit wars [1] [2] [3] [4], even in spite of a clear consensus against you: [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]. Some of them broke The Three Revert Rule. Añoranza 07:47, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Do you use the IP number that duplicates your edits? Añoranza 08:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

No consensus has been reached, because the debate has not concluded. And remember, Wikipedia is not a Democracy. A consensus is not the results of a poll. Further, Wikipedia is not a battleground. You appear to be attempting to intimidate me because we disagree. I have come to this conclusion by your general attitude towards me, but I may be mistaken. Either way, I think we could both get farther if you lightened up a bit, perhaps not saying my every word is innuendo like De Mortuis did. I know what innuendo is, and this is not innuendo. To answer your final question, no, I do not use IP's to duplicate my edits. Rangeley 16:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

You reverted again, this is obscene. I do not intimidate you, I just tell you that wikipedia does not work if single editors like you decide that all others are stupid and should be ignored. Añoranza 16:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not beleive you or anyone here to be stupid, however I do beleive that Wikipedia is meant to represent the truth. When a large group of people is working to silence this truth, this is no reason to give in. I do not beleive you stupid, but merely wrong on this contested issue. Rangeley 16:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I award you this picture for your 25th revert on a single issue, something I have never seen before, and I encourage you to take the middle monkey as an example, not only the other two. Añoranza 16:42, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I will continue my policy of speaking no evil. Also you will note that this incident began 12 days ago, on the 26th, roughly making it 2 reverts per day. Rangeley 16:45, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Have you ever thought about the possibility that the 3RR does not mean "please revert 2.99 times per day"? Añoranza 16:49, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it says no more than 3 a day, something I have tried to keep track of throughout this entire time. Rangeley 16:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Irony was not your strong subject at school, was it? Añoranza 16:55, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I cannot recall ever taking a class on irony, nor am I in one now. So no, it is impossible for it to have, or currently be, my strong subject in school. Rangeley 16:58, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

So maybe we try it with Socrates: Have you ever thought about what would happen with wikipedia if every user reverted 2.99 times per day on every page where she or he disagreed with consensus? Añoranza 17:06, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

That is a mischaracterization to begin with. If everyone reverted 3 times a day edits that were done without base, we could have likely prevented the John Seigenthaler scandal - which came from a lack of reverting a false edit. There is no consensus in this issue. A preliminary poll, even when concluded, is not a consensus. This poll is not even finished. Consensus? Hardly. Rangeley 17:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

We are getting closer. Have you ever thought what would happen if everyone would just edit with theattitude "even if many are against me I am for sure the one who knows best and can decide on my own which edits have a base"? Have you ever thought what would happen if all discussions were ignored until all sides give in that there is a consensus, including sides which generally think that what others do is without base? Have you ever thought how in such a wikipedia a consensus could ever be reached and how much time would be lost? Añoranza 17:22, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Those who are right should never give up merely because the side that is incorrect has, at this time, more people. Obviously if everyone merely assumed themselves right, we would get nowhere. But I am not merely assuming I am right. After debating for such a long time, I am more sure than ever that it is a part of the campaign. Can you say the same? Are you more sure than ever that it was not started as part of this campaign, or are you just banking on the fact that you have more people on your side? Rangeley 17:35, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Who do you think sees clearer, those who make most edits or those who just think calmly? As the other side keeps telling you you are wrong, have you thought about the possibility that we are already getting nowhere with edit wars? After so many edits you still have not gotten the point that the debate is not about what the US government says what the Iraq war is but what it should be neutrally described like in an encyclopedia? Añoranza 17:44, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I have been calm throughout this entire 'edit war' as you call it, and have not resorted to calling anyone names, or claiming anyone suffers from a mental illness. Most certainly we are getting nowhere when the page is merely reverted on no basis, something that others have frequently done. I agree 100% that we are not, as an encyclopedia, aiming to present everything any government states as fact. However, I understand that when a government begins a program, or campaign, and then carries out different things under these programs or campaigns, it is not biased or POV to recognize that the actions are part of these wider programs or campaigns. It is not POV to recognize the rounding up of Jews and the concentration camps are linked. They were part of a Nazi program, in which many different things were carried out. Most people today call it the holocaust. When you look at each thing seperately, you fail to see the intent behind it, and you might get the idea that it was a mere coincidence that the events happened. But they were carried out under the same program, as such, today we can recognize the true scope of the destruction.

In this issue, the US Government and allies began a campaign, under which different things are being carried out. When you put them together, as they should be, you understand the true scope of them, rather then beleiving that its a mere coincidence that they happened at a close time. They cannot be looked at seperately, because they were carried out under the same campaign. It is our job, as an encyclopedia, to recognize this. Rangeley 17:56, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

If you refuse to accept anything dozens of others tell you does it really mean their edits are without base? If the Nazis' term Endlösung der Judenfrage (final solution of the Jewish question) had been popular at the time should an encyclopedia have used it without quotation marks or comment as captions and tagged it on dozens of articles? Añoranza 18:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

We can deal with the name, and whether or not it should have quotes, after this one part is settled. Do you agree with me on my point, that it is neither POV or biased to recognize that the different components were part of the campaign they named Endlösung der Judenfrage, which most of us call the Holocaust? Rangeley 18:29, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Progress, wow. It should have quotes at least. Cool. And we can deal with the name. Great. That is all I ever wanted. Dealing with you seems rather tedious though. But there is something good in everyone. I agree that rounding up and concentration camps were part of the campaign the Nazis called Endlösung. A term equally inappropriate for wikipedia template titles or captions as "war on terror" as both are inherently not neutral and widely criticized. Añoranza 23:32, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Alright, so if that is settled, then we now agree that it is not POV or biased to recognize the Iraq War as part of the conflict in question. Now, if we are to analyze it, the name Holocaust portrays a POV, and will always create negative imagery. So the reason we use this name is not because it is perfectly neutral, but rather that it has become the common word for the event. The War on Terror is no different. It portrays a POV, however this is as much an issue as it is with the holocaust, or the new deal, and a great many other things. For instance, Christianity. The name, Christian, means follower of Christ. But the problem lies in that Christ is not Jesus's last name, but rather, it is the term for 'messiah' or 'savior.' Some people do not think Jesus is the savior/messiah. Does that mean we cannot use the term Christianity? No, it does not. When Wikipedia uses the term Christian or Christianity, it is not saying it to take a point of view that Jesus was infact the savior, but rather it is recognizing that Christian and Christianity are the most commonly used terms for the followers, and the religion itself. Again, the reason we use these terms here is not because they are perfectly neutral, but instead because they are the most common terms for their respective things. This, too, is why we use the name War on Terror as the conflict in question. When Wikipedia uses this term, it is not taking the POV that the war is right, but rather, it is recognizing that this is the most commonly used term to apply to the conflict. This is not POV. Rangeley 00:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Holocaust portrays the POV that what was done to the jews was a disaster or catastrophe. Given that courts decided that there was a genocide and a crime against humanity this POV is widely accepted. The POV that the Iraq war was on terror is not. Thus, using a propaganda term that implies exactly this is unacceptable. And please stop telling me that the Iraq war is most commonly called part of a war on terror. An overwhelming majority of the part of the world population that is aware of it would not agree. And even if it was the most commonly used term, should the article penis become a redirect to willy if it was found out that the latter was used more frequently? Añoranza 00:55, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

But its POV just the same, no? Again, dont muddy the issue. It has been agreed that the Iraq War is part of the campaign, no disputing this. The press, and a majority of english speaking individuals refer to this conflict as the War on Terror. Iraq War = Part of Campaign. Campaign = War on Terrorism. Therefore, Iraq War = Part of War on Terrorism. Its simple logic. Rangeley 02:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

It is not the same. As I wrote a dozen times now, the term is not universally accepted but clearly favors one side and is heavily criticized by many. Show me ten pages where holocaust is put in quotation marks in the same way. The majority of English speaking individuals are not American neocons, and even if they were, it would still violate NPOV to use their propaganda in captions and template titles. Añoranza 10:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverts without even a summary are not helpful

Stop it! Añoranza 23:19, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I was under the assumption that vandalism was not helpful. I know you have an issue with the term. But here is your problem. 1. No consensus exists stating that the Waziristan War is not part of the war on terror, in fact, your own argument in previous places, that the War on Terror is against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, should make it clearer than anything in your mind that it is indeed a part of it. 2. Questions of POV go on the article in question, not everwhere else. For instance, if the article on George W. Bush were of questionable POV, such template would be placed on the article itself. Not in every article linking to it as something in (parenthesis).

I couldnt easilly fit that in a summary, but I thank you for coming to me so that now we are both on the same page. Rangeley 01:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Didn't fit is the lamest excuse I have ever heard for not writing a summary. Summary means summarized. Pointing out that a term is criticized is not vandalism. Añoranza 00:11, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed it is not vandalism to place an NPOV notice on the page itself. But putting it in parenthesis after it is linked to is vandalism. Rangeley 01:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I just tried to make it as small and specifica as possible. It is ridiculous to post an NPOV tag on a whole article just for one phrase. Your definition of vandalism ignores wiki rules. Añoranza 01:14, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats not what I said you should do. An NPOV tag should be placed at the War on Terrorism page as thats the article in question. But just like we dont say George W. Bush (this article is locked due to vandalism) or Thursday (this article is featured), we do not put (this term's neutrality is disputed) after any disputed term when it is linked to. Rangeley 02:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

The neutrality of the article "War on terror" is not disputed by me. I dispute that using the propaganda term without quotation marks and a comment as a header elsewhere is neutral. Añoranza 08:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

As Rangeley pointed out adding (this term is disputed) after every single mentioning of "war on terror" is quite inappropriate for the reasons he has mentioned above. Also if you feel the term is propaganda and should be used in a certain way, then that is a discussion best left for the page where the term is linking to, not every page the term appears on. Having 8 discussions all taking place on the same topic is not efficient as centralizing that discussion to the war on terror page. Also please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view as to what POV tags are, and how you are leaving commentary, not a tag. --Zer0faults 14:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

As I already explained above, the appropriateness of a propaganda term in an article can only be discussed in that article. It is an entirely different question whether a propaganda term should be used without quotation marks and comment in an article about something else or whether there should be an article about the term. I see no way to add the tag into the box and I regard it as inappropriate to add an NPOV tag to the whole article if only one term is disputed. Añoranza 18:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunatly, just because you "regard it as inappropriate" does not change the Wiki Policy which is linked above. Please follow the appropriate using of POV tags as stated in the policy article. Thank you --Zer0faults 13:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

As you know very well, I am not the only one who regards propaganda terms inappropriate in such cases, and NPOV tags should be as specific as possible, otherwise the reader has not much benefit. Añoranza 10:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure why you are still arguing this after you have found the correct tags, which means you were using the wrong tag before. I agree they should be specific, which is why they have tags that accomplish that, only you asserted that the whole article needed to be tagged, and then you went ahead and did it. Noone todl you too, in your haste to tag the topic, perhaps you just skipped over the correct tags. I am glad you found the correct ones, if I can be of any other help, please use my talk page and not poor Rangeley's --Zer0faults 11:48, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Can you do me a favour

Please spreading dirty lies that Referendum won,because it far from over unofficial results vary from 54-46 to 55.5-44.5but it seems like croocked dirty independists failed,so please dont be saying its over until 10 am when we will get official results.Thank you very muchDzoni

I know that this is obviously a personal issue for many people, and I have reverted several edits made by those stating that they are now independant. However, this is not because I beleive the projections to be wrong, but instead because regardless of whether it has won or not, the two nations will remain together until they officially seperate. When and if this happens, that is when we should state Montenegro as its own nation. So again, if I have offended anyone it was completely unintentional. Rangeley 03:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason I spoke to you is this sentence :"Likewise, while this referendum has been won by the independence movement, it has not yet been put into action."

I just wanted to point out to you that "this referendum has not been won" and with Gods will,if results stay as they are,referendum lost,but your sentence presumed its all over and thats why I spoke to you.You should be carefull,because just a couple of words can offend people.Thank you Dzoni

Response

Although I feel multi-ethnic states and unity are preferable to division amongst ethnic lines I also acknowledge that people have to be pragmatic and take things as relevant to the situation they face. Western Sahara and Kurdistan are currently based in oppresive areas where the people are punished and would be better protected if independent yet this is not the case for Serbia and Montenegro. Ultimately my dream would be to see the world unified in one state but I accept that is extremely unlikely and at the moment I look at things in relative terms. Horses In The Sky ^{talk contributions}

United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.--Ryz05 _t 01:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you - U.S. FAC

Hi,

Thank you for supporting the recent FAC of United States, but unfortunately it failed to pass. However, I hope you will vote again in the future. In the mean time, please accept this Mooncake as a token of my gratitude.--Ryz05 _t 15:45, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Back

Did not want to edit the WOT page while you seemed to be on vacation. I see you have been made aware of the situation with Anoranza, I have a RfC open against me now, one filed after the AN/I post I see you found. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Zer0faults If you do not want to get involved I completely understand as things have escalated since you were last editing, even Nescio is choosing not to get involved. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 01:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This is getting pretty tiring how they personally target people like that... Rangeley 02:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I have to agree, Mr. Tibbs even tried to get people to post by asserting I was merecat, however it failed as the person must have seen the RFCU they added me to that showed I was not. I am trying to get an admin to look at the RfC and let me know if Mr. Tibbs can even certify it as he has had a bad faith history with me before and wasn't involved in the dispute in the first place. He has even gone on to posting the RfC information on articles that are unrelated to the dispute where I have voted for or against something, another bad faith attempt. Perhaps they are starting to realize they are the only ones who think I am a bad editor, all that effort and they have only got one user to agree with them and he is saying its because I am a sockpuppet and acknowledges he will keep accusing me of it regardless of what RFCU states. I think that is a situation that may have to be taken to admins as well. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Odd

I'm not sure why it would be doing that.You might have more luck asking on IRC or the help desk, since there are probably some more technically-skilled people there. --tomf688 (talk - email) 19:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Re:Iraq and the War on Terrorism

Thanks for the heads up.Rmt2m 16:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly what I was going to write. KevinPuj 20:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Careful

You should be careful posting identical messages to lots of talk pages about "votes".First of all, we don't have votes here, and it's not very cool to encourage the idea that we do.Secondly, people get blocked for what we call "Internal spamming" regularly.Please don't try to sway the appearance of consensus by inviting groups of people with a certain POV to discussions. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright. I will stop, and I myself have stated before that a numerical majority is not a consensus. I am however interested in getting the strongest arguments possible on an issue, in hopes of finally ending the debate. Rangeley 00:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

A better way to get the best arguments is to announce the poll (and call it a "straw poll", not a "vote") at places like WP:VP and the talk pages of related articles.Targeting individual users is what tends to get frowned upon. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I will post something about it at the Village Pump now. Rangeley 00:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Um... I guess it might be a good idea to change those messages from "vote" to "straw poll".I understand that it was an honest mistake, and I have no reason to doubt your good faith, so please don't worry about it too much.Still, "straw poll" does give quite a different impression, much closer to what actually goes on here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:56, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

There, all are replaced with "Wikipedia:WOT has opened its straw poll, and is open to discussion," a vaguely more accurate description. Rangeley 01:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that; I appreciate your consideration. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:04, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

regarding WOT talk

It may not be harmful to put all of the discussion on the talk page, will keep voting page cleaner and allow for more open discussion in that location. Will also remove Hipocrites accusations that its a political discussino as talk pages are not under WP:V WP:NPOV etc. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 15:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the move would be quite messy. Rangeley 15:36, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Info Box on Iraq War

Just wondering why you took out the "US wounded" number and then changed your mind. Right now I'm of the mind to keep the wounded number out until/unless we find wounded numbers for all groups. Just curious about your change in tack.Publicus 16:02, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

My objection was it not being a standard in other wars infoboxes to show wounded. After I realized it was in other infoboxes, I reverted my edit. Since Im in several large debates already (Wikipedia talk:WOT), I just wanted to limit the amount of things I would have to check and respond to, being a lazy person that I am. So my reversion is not because I think it should be placed there, but instead that my original basis for removing it was shown to be wrong. Rangeley 16:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Disruption

You should consider this your final warning. Do not disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, like you did here. It is a violation of our policies, and can result in a block. Thank you. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point, you linked to a page in the infobox that was irrelevant and should not have been placed there. I would ask you not to threaten me with being banned without base again, or you yourself may be seen as disrupting wikipedia. Rangeley 18:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Accidents happen

Rangeley, I know you didn't delete my reply on purpose - you were clearly doing a major overhaul of some kind at the time.I really didn't mean anything more threatening than "let's all be careful" in my edit summary. -GTBacchus^(talk) 21:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, thats good to know. Also, can anything be done about Nomen Nescio's editing? He keeps changing the points at the start of the article to misrepresent what it is addressing. [25][26][27][28][29][30][31]Rangeley 21:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I find this editing after the fact to be disruptive, people have already voted, over 20 so far, to change the points now are wrong. I think if he has issues he should bring them up perhaps in another location or on the talk page. The problem I have is he never lays out his point, its kind of a game as he jumps from one point to another till you give up. I wish he would just say my reasons are XYZ then let people debate those points. He doesn't even answer why he thinks US went to war, how are people suppose to help include everyone ideas when they do not say their idea? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 22:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

To me it shows the true argument against the one proposed: Nothing. Rangeley 22:19, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it would not harm to handle kizzles issue now, it does not seem to go against anyone else who voted and may help make a concensus since he is one of the people most disputing it, not only that but it may help other users accept it as well. A concensus means we all agree, not that they all agree with us. I think its a mutually beneficial way of stating it. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 22:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I just posted my list of preferences of how to handle the name. Rangeley 22:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I left early because I was dead tired, how did things go with finding a middle ground with kizzle? I know they wanted quotation marks, which way did the discussion head to? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:02, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Kizzle then wanted to call it The Bush Administrations Global War on Terrorism, but I said this doesnt represent the fact that Bush and his cabinet is not the only party involved. I asked if Kizzle would accept the Global/Overview compromise, and didnt get a response yet. So, didnt really get anywhere. Rangeley 16:06, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you see what Nomen is trying to add now? He took the previous polls about the infobox and is attempting to say they were about the larger issue. Not only that but he is trying to say that by stating WMD as a main reason, that those people excluded terrorists as a reason ... I dont even know what to say to somethnig like that. As for Kizzle hopefully we can all reach a good middleground as I really am hopnig to build a workable concensus. Sorry been busy at work and dealing with Nomen edits, he has admitted that Iraq had terrorism links finally, the rest is just opinion and conspiracy theories like the war being over oil. Also keeping my eye on the RFAr on User:Añoranza has been keeping my hands full. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 19:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well that all sounds pretty good to me. GTBacchus should be on before too long again, he can help with the consensus building too. Rangeley 20:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Consensus

Hi, I've been caught up in other stuff and missed most of the above thread.I think the best way to demonstrate that you've got consensus is to edit the page, and it sticks.It's not really necessary to say any magic words or cut a ribbon with a pair of golden scissors or something.Here's one thing to do, though: start a clean section at the talk page of Iraq War.State really clearly what edit you feel the consensus has settled on.Allow people one last chance to comment about that particular edit.A good way to anticipate any objections is to already have the discussion in the text about the problems inherent in using the name "The War on Terrorism" while talking about the Iraq War.If this really is the solution that most or all of us can agree upon, that should be apparent.Who's the main objector at this point - Nescio?I could have a word with him, too, if you think that might help get us all on the same page... -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:39, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he has been the most vocal opponent in discussion, and it would be quite helpful if you spoke with him. Rangeley 00:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I would give you a barnstar or wikistar thingy, but I have no clue how they work. So I instead say great work thus far. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Same to you, its certainly been quite the journey to get that recognized. I was thinking about that War on Terrorism project that you mentioned earlier, do you think we should set it up now? Since there isnt anything standing in the way from covering it correctly, it seems like the next place to go. Rangeley 12:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I already signed up, just need a todo list. I am already working no one article now. As for the Iraq War article, the source [32] is using numbers from the PDF source I had provided. The numbers she is quoting include terrorists and insurgents jailed, the about.com article just misquoted the source. The PDF is the actual document, Iraq Index. That is why I added Insurgents killed or jailed and included terrorists, the Iraq Index counts terrorists and insurgents together. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 14:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I didnt know what that source was, since the original 55,000 number was added by me from the source I put up. Rangeley 14:35, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I've left a note on Nescio's talk page, and I'm looking forward to chatting with him.So, are you guys starting a WikiProject on the War on Terrorism?Can I help?I'm a bit interested in political WikiProjects just now - they seem like a better way to network than by user category. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I intended to, and made one [33]. However, it seems that Kirill Lokshin opposes it [34], and I am just so tired of people thinking I am out to cause trouble that I dont want to even defend it. Rangeley 16:02, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see... "War on Terrorism task force" is a poor choice of name, I'll give them that. One has to be careful setting up a WikiProject about politics, but it can be done. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

If you can figure out how to do it that would be great. Rangeley 16:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm happy to help with it, but I'd like to see this current issue sorted out first.I don't think Krill was too inspired by claims of consensus on the Iraq War article, let's see if that's still sticking after a week.Meanwhile, is there a particular set of article categories that you see as falling under the "War on Terrorism" banner?Is there a better phrase to use in the name of the project than "War on Terrorism," which we've seen in somewhat problematic? -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I invisioned that all of the articles in the war on terrorism template would be included. Other things, like operations in the wars, laws passed (patriot act etc) or important people too. For a name, I dont really know. Would quotes around it work? Rangeley 16:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, right?How much mileage can we get out of the quotation marks trick?Here, check this out:

• Category:Anti-Terrorism Policy of the United States (40 articles)
  • Category:2003 Iraq conflict (104 articles)
    • 13 subcategories
  • Category:Al-Qaeda (30 articles)
    • 3 subcategories
  • Category:Al-Qaeda members (88 articles)
    • 1 subcategory
  • Category:Guantanamo Bay detainees (447 articles)
  • Category:Guantanamo attorneys (24 articles)
  • Category:Jemaah Islamiyah (18 articles)
  • Category:People convicted on terrorism charges (20 articles)
    • 2 subcategories
  • Category:Taliban (14 articles)
  • Category:Terrorism in Indonesia (6 articles)
    • 1 subcategory
  • Category:Terrorism in the United States (3 articles)
    • 3 subcategories
  • Category:Terrorist incidents in the 1990s (49 articles)
  • Category:Terrorists (56 articles)
    • 3 subcategories
  • Category:USA PATRIOT Act (19 articles)
  • Category:United States federal defense and national security legislation (15 articles)
    • 1 subcategory

Ok, so there's a category tree, rooted at "Anti-Terrorism policy of the United States.This area of Wikipedia is clearly a mess.The really obvious problems, evident before looking at any articles, are in the category structure, how there are categories that are parents of their own siblings - that's not right.Anyway, for a WikiProject, I'd suggest first defining its scope.Just which of these categories would you include in your projects purview, and which ones would you leave out? -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:31, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, just looking at that stuff, it all seems like it could potentially be involved. Its hard to tell what terrorist attacks impacted poliy and what did not. Stuff like the USS Cole bombing or WTC 1993 likely did, and perhaps even IRA stuff in England impacted their strong reaction to terror since they dealt with it before. Rangeley 16:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, if that's the chunk you're willing to bite off (you're brave!), then why not title the project something like Wikipedia:WikiProject United States anti-terrorism policy?There are some serious problems in that little section of category tree... -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Because it isnt strictly the US, its the whole "War on Terrorism." Rangeley 16:52, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

See, I think that being married to that phrase is a bad idea.It drips with instant controvery, since it's considered by many to be a particularly poinsonous piece of propaganda.On the other hand, "US anti-terrorism policy" isn't much better.Hmmm... -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

What about "Anti-Terrorism Policy" in general? So long as this can include people who are infact terrorists, or events that are terrorist attacks, Id be fine with it. This would be better suited out of the military history umbrella though. Rangeley 16:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I would feel comfortable out from under that umbrella.Some overlap wouldn't hurt, but topics like the USA PATRIOT Act aren't really military history.So, you want a project whose scope is terrorism, and nations' responses to it? -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds good. Rangeley 17:08, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about Wikipedia:WikiProject Terrorism and counter-terrorism? -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:09, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure, can I just move the current project there, or is there some official way I have to go about it? Rangeley 17:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Um.... let's take small steps.It's easy to give the impression of bias if we aren't careful, as you've seen.If the scope is to be Terrorism and counter-terrorism, that's pretty big.I'd want to poke at that for a while from a high altitude, playing with the categories and whatnot, until I had a good feel for just how big a chunk of encyclopedia we're dealing with here.Category:Terrorism and all of its subcategories...Yeah, go ahead and move the page; the old content is good to start from, and there's only a couple people watching that page so far, right?You want to be careful that you don't find ways to attract participants of a particular POV, or the project could just get taken to MfD pretty quickly. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yea, my category spamming days have ended. As only 2 people are in the project so far, I cant imagine there are any more than that watching it. You are also invited into it if you are interested. Rangeley 17:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

This seems like a massive project to get involved with, what exactly are we doing? I have not been part of a wikiproject before. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 18:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Massive, yes.I'm trying to get a sense now, putting a category tree together, of just how massive.I imagine, if you're sane, you'll want to refine the scope of the project at some point.I have some pretty good ideas about how these things work, but I'm no expert on WikiProjects, and even less of an expert on terrorism. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Its just a way to organize efforts into cleaning up the area of terrorism and counter terrorism, including the war on terrorism campaign. Its the same project as before, only with a title that is less likely to cause problems. Rangeley 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there's no great sense of duty involved in starting a WikiProject.It's just a useful way to think about a whole collection of articles at once.Maybe I was wrong above about refining the scope. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

WOT task force

You might want to comment here; suffice it to say there are a number of questions about this putative group that need rather immediate answering. Kirill Lokshin 14:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Nescio

I have decided to no longer reply to this user anymore so he can cease his persecution claims. If I see something wrong, I will alert the user and not comment directly. I am tired of his antics of running to AN/I instead of discussing the situation with the community. I feel this users political opinion out weighs their ability to reach a concensus as whenever asked what would he be willing to accept or what he is asking for in return etc, he just responds that he is right and no matter how many people disagree with him, it doesnt matter. I leave you alone in your dealings with him, as I do not need the Wikidrama after all that happened with Anoranza. I have asked him to not reply to me, and in turn I will not reply to him. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 18:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, that is a good idea for now. Rangeley 19:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd try to get more people to view the situation.I'm actually moving to another city this afternoon, and I won't be online as much as usual for a few days.Rather crummy timing, in this case.I do think that Nescio and Rkrichbaum have complaints that are more substantial than you might be recognizing.It's not remotely an open-and-shut issue.I have a lot of sympathy with arguments on both sides of this one.

Remember that dispute resolution offers several options, including Article Requests for Comment - have you tried one of those yet?If that fails, there's Requests for Mediation.I'll check in when I can. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I can see the complaints of Rkrichbaum, he feels the name implies something. I believe you have tried to explain the proper noun thing to him. However Nescio believes many of the things covered in Farenheit 911, and so political ideology will outweigh all else. I have asked him to tell me what he needs facts for and I will provide them. I did provide the facts for the one thing that could be factually proven, the other stuff was asking why other countries dont name the US terrorists, is not something I can provide facts for. He then stopped replying asking for more facts, so to me I am no longer dealing with him. Rkrichbaum seems to have a genuine issue, if it cannot be explained to him the difference in the naming conventions I am more then willing to attempt to budge and meet another point that would make him feel more comfortable with the name. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 00:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You may be right about Nescio.He seems kind of uncommunicative.I don't see this issue being completely resolved... this month, but we'll keep after it.It seems that you, Zer0faults, and Nescio have some animosity, or at least something less than affection?I'm sure he's a great guy, in the right setting, but he's locked into a pattern right now, and it involves you and Rangeley being wrong, in his mind.That's a tricky dynamic to break out of; I'll bet your avoiding direct communication with him for a little while isn't a bad idea.At some point, it is nice if we can all get on board the same train without derailing, but things take time... -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats how it seems to me, he has pulled several reversals in arguments, at first claiming "even though Bush says it was in the WoT, we all know Saddam didnt have ties to terrorism" and then after we proved he did, it was "we all knew he had ties to terror, but Bush never said it was part of the WoT." With stuff like that, its pretty difficult to get anywhere. Hes done similar things with the RFC's, defending it when he edited ours, trying to get Zer0 blocked for editing his, and then similar things with polls, pointing to a 16-10 poll that went his way for a consensus, then claiming a 24-3 poll that didnt is not one (when neither poll means consensus). Animosity... perhaps, but more frustration than anything. Rangeley 00:49, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Before removing it

I was notified about that discussion, so I didn't have the chance to give my opinion. With all due respect, I'll follow what was said in each articles talk page. Esaborio 02:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I posted links to the discussion in every topic it was related to, including the tempates talk page [35]. If you did not participate I am sorry, however the consensus can still be talked about, and I have indeed invited you to do so. Rangeley 02:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You posted the links AFTER the "consensus" was reached, therefore, I couldn't participate. Esaborio 03:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

It was posted on the 18th, talks went on for 3 days after that. Noone is excluding you now however, what exactly is the issue you have with it? --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 10:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding WOT

Hi,

For centralizing purposes, I have replied on my talk page.Best wishes, Xoloz 12:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

WOT template & Iraq War

All right, I'll stick to the current version of the WOT template. Esaborio 02:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If you still have concerns, you should still voice them. Rangeley 14:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I feel the original version was more accurate. Esaborio 05:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Why? Rangeley 14:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi There

Yes, that is correct. Rangeley 01:29, 21 June 2006 (UTC) What is correct?

I still have a problem with putting this in the title. I do understand though that this is a US-defined term--so if we have to use this Republican rhetorical device, can we at least label it "Part of the U.S. War on Terrorism" since that a better descriptor of the conflict.Publicus 13:24, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Clearly the consensus is still not found. Feel free to await the RFCF and what others, beside you, Zero and me, think of it. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 18:43, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I recommend you read the first two paragraphs (by me and GTBacchus), they explain why

After discussing the relationship between the Iraq War and the War on Terrorism, we have reached a consensus over how do deal with this at Wikipedia. As the "War on Terrorism" is a specific, defined campaign, waged by the USA and its allies, they have full ability to define it, and carry it out as they choose.

Hur? I edited the article called 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

Apparently you missed my goodbye, so I say it again. Don't bother addressing me because I have left this debate. Let me explain why. There started a debate whether the Iraq war is part of WOT and if it should say so in the infobox. You stated your case why you think it should. Many others told you why you were wrong. Your response? Simply restate the same argument. Again people correct you. Even 2 polls showed the majority was against having a controversial statement in the infobox. What do you do? Restate the same argument. Well 10 years, 5 films, and 7 novels later all those opposing your view have left and miraculously your POV is presented in this paragraph as consensus. No my friend, wearing out those with opposing views by ignoring every single argument they advance why you are wrong so they no longer wish to take part in any discussion with you is not consensus. It is reaching a POV statement through pestering away other views. Exactly why I stop, the fact you have the gall to present your POV as consensus says it all. Goodbye and feel delighted you get to make this article POV by being the most stubborn of all. Even more than I. Nomen NescioGnothi seauton 00:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Is the "War on Terrorism" a proper noun? If so, who created it? What dictates what is within the realm of the proper noun "War on Terrorism"? --kizzle 05:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you check Religious War instead? Better read English with open mind!! Good luck!!! Larry Lawrence 23:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error there, meant to say "to" not "do." However, I am curious as to why you would even copy Nescio where he bowed out of discussion. What are your complaints on the consensus, though? Rangeley 00:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Stop

Do not comment on my talk page. You clearly fail to understand that selfproclaimed consensus is bad form. Especially since you POV has been heavily critized and called POV pushing on the same page you claim shows consensus. If you are capable to discuss facts and leave the monologues out of it others would appreciate that. I have already stated I refuse to continue talking to you since all you are interested in is blatant POV pushing.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I know you and others have called it POV, all I ask is why is it POV. I am pretty sure that we have come up with a consensus that is solid, and certainly not POV because it recognizes that this campaign is able to be defined by its wagers. I do however know that someone might have thought of something I have not that, all I ask of you is to tell us why you object to the consensus. If you so strongly object to it, what you have to say must be heard. Why is it POV? Rangeley 13:06, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Rangeley,

I\'m sorry that I was unable to contribute to the poll (Wikipedia:WOT), however I\'ve been inactive a bit lately, and don\'t use wikipedia as much as I once did, even \"active\". Chooserr 18:45, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats fine, we reached a consensus on the issue here: [36] which you are welcome to comment on. Rangeley 18:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Relating to Iraq War

I thought you had looked at this already—Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.9.105.18 (talk • contribs)

Nope, but now I have voted. Rangeley 03:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Operation Summer Rain

Hello, there's been some discussion about Operation Summer Rain vs. Operation Summer Rains at Operation Summer Rain. Since you previously expressed interested in this issue, I'd like to get your opinion again, since it's come up again.It may be worth checking newspapers again, since my research indicates they're about 50-50 on usage. Thanks. WilyD 16:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Terrorism

Not sure if you seen that post on the talk page of the wikiproject we have been working on. Let me know what you think of it, it seems pretty organized and maybe a combined effort between the groups merging can help speed up its progression. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Nato

What do you think about the WOT and NATO? Am I overdoing it? Nescio thinks NATO should not be noted, however I disagree with him. He removed the template for WOT from the NATO page on the basis that NATO is not involved with enough operations. However I noted they are involved with OEF-HOA OEF-A and Operation Active Endeavor. What is your opinion, you seem to give good advice. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 01:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the organization itself, as opposed to its members acting independantly, is enough to include it. Their participation is definately notable, I dont really see what sort of argument could put forth saying it isnt. Rangeley 01:19, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

His last edit summary "by your own admission it is a US war since only Bush gets to decide what is part of it, or are you now saying that all parties involved have a say, in that case, all parties see Iraq as not part of ." I just checked the War on Terrorism page and it does state, and has for sometime, that US and NATO and their allies choose, not just the US ... --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 01:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• You reverted the other text, this is circular logic.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 01:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

We can now conclude that the both of you insist WOT is not a US but a NATO campaign. That is allright with me, but if it is a NATO campaign Bush no longer has the last word on what is part of that campaign. Therefore the discussions in which you claimed authority since Bush said so, are null and void since Bush does not get to say anything. Further teaming up is not entirely civil behaviour. Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 01:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

How would the US being the sole determinant mean that other parties cannot participate? The USA can begin something as part of the WOT, and others can join in support. NATO, and other allies certainly have done this, and obviously are notable for this reason. Rangeley 01:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• • • Thank you Rangeley, I am not sure what this user was reading. Perhaps he was making assumptions. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 01:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that what supported means! The current sentence clearly does not say NATO helps out. As it stands NATO is the prime contributor alongside the US, that statement is incorrect.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 01:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are saying. If I wanted to raise $100 for my school so we could fund the school newspaper, I could launch a campaign called "Earn 100 dollars for the School Paper." I begin by baking cookies and selling them at a local store. The next day, the School group named "Literacy for America" announces they want to help, and I let them. I happen to be a member of this group lets say. The next day, several of my friends say that they want to help too by selling other things, I let them. It is correct to state that "Earn 100 dollars for the School Paper" was a campaign by Rangeley, Literacy for America, and other friends. This doesnt mean that I wasnt the sole determinant of what was and what was not in the campaign - infact it doesnt state who is the determinant at all. It merely states the participants.

Thats whats going on here, the opening paragraph states the participants, it doesnt venture into who defines the campaign at all. Rangeley 02:04, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

You yourself repeatedly claimed that it is a US campaign and the US gets to decide what is and what is not part of it (remember your argument regarding Iraq!). Now suddenly confronted with that you disallow saying that NATO only supports. Make up your mind, either NATO is the initiator and decides, or it only supports. Feel free to review the current text where it says the US AND NATO initiated WOT.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:01, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

NATO is not the initiator, I dont know what you are referring to because I have never said this. It was started by the USA. But just as my example up there, the USA is not the sole participant. It is a correct statement to say that it is a campaign by the USA, NATO, and other allies. Rangeley 13:07, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Stop harrassing me

Either restore all my deleted comments or leave it. As it is a large part of what I wrote disappeared, is repeatedly deleted, and even my comments on that are reverted by you. At best you are uncivil at worst you are harrassing me and I demand you stop this. Either allow all my comments or allow my protest to the blatant manipulation!Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 12:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

You are the one removing your comments and replacing them with "Removed comment since editors are allowed to delete, alter and manipulate several commentys I placed on this page." You are vandalizing by doing this, especially because people have commented to your statements that you are removing. Noone is allowed to comment in the introduction, and certainly noone is allowed to change what the poll was about after people have voted. I am not harassing you remotely, you are simply choosing to make things very difficult for all of us. How else am I supposed to deal with someone who has reverted WOT 5 times in a 24 hour period, reverted the War on Terrorism 6 times in a 24 hour period , and reverted the WOT template 6 times in a 24 hour period - other than try and talk to them. You are outright edit warring, and further you are breaking many rules. I havent once reported you, and I have continually attempted to initiate a dialogue with you in which we can settle things. I know you probably dont like me, and I know that you most certainly dont like the Iraq War, but you must never let these things get in the way of working towards a greater good at Wikipedia. This stuff has gone on since April, wouldnt you agree its time to move on? GTBracchus wants you to answer his question about the proper noun statement he made at the Iraq War article. Talk with us, dont revert war. Rangeley 13:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• You and Zero have removed several comments I made. Please restore them
• You yourself have commented in the introduction, you remove my comments but leave your own, which clearly violate your believe that "Noone is allowed to comment in the introduction." As long as a large part of my contributions is absent you will have to accept that I can protest to that. As it stands you not only redact MY comments, you even redact my comments on your vandalism. I ask you for the last time: restore my entire contribution or allow my comments on your censoring my contributions.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have never commented in the introduction. And you act as though this is only a limitation placed on you, its not. Noone is allowed to discuss anything in the introduction, there is place set aside for discussion. And in this place, you continually vandalize by removing comments. Rangeley 13:21, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

So why is my removal of your comments in the intro (NOTE: Consensus or super majority has been reached, [1].) not allowed. Please remove this comment in accordance to your own policy,and restore mine. Again, either ALL my comments are allowed or let it be!Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 13:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

That is not a comment, it is noting that the discussion in that article has concluded. It links to the final statement explaining the conclusion that was reached. You, on the other hand, posted your own personal rebuttals to the arguments put forth. These are comments, and, while welcome in the areas for discussion, are unwelcome in the introduction area. Rangeley 13:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Clearly by your own admission you posted an argument and beyond that, you start a poll and also get to interpret the result? Rather odd, especially since the statement was incorrect. However, my NOTE explaining that conclusion is premature is not allowed. Double standard? Have you restored the deleted comments and when will you be deleting your comment in the intro?Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 14:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Its premature? Are you implying that you have objections? If so, please state them. Honestly Nescio, saying "there is no consensus" is not an objection. GTBracchus stated this in response to what you last said: "Red herring. Let's stay focused on the important point here - WOT is a proper noun, being used as a label and not for the meanings of its component words, taken as common nouns. Whether US intelligence said or didn't say that Saddam had links to Mars doesn't affect that." Dont just tell me this is wrong, tell me why it is wrong. Stop claiming I have a double standard when I dont, stop claiming I am harassing you when I am not, stop revert warring, and stop rule breaking. Just respond to GTBracchus and get this over with. Its all here: [37], find where GTBrachhus states this and respond. Rangeley 14:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Do not repeat your arguments but read the numerous comments explaining this is POV. Have you removed your comment? If you deny me the right to place comments and repeatedly delete them I will be forced to make yet another edit out of protest. Even the last edit was manipulated by you. Why do you get to censor other peoples view? Is this not exactly why many said on the page it was a POV pushing poll?Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 14:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Just to point out, I do not know if you noticed, but your comments were moved to the bottom, the section titled dicussion as that is where the edit summary said you put it. You can see me edit before the revert, and then Rangeley's as well. Your comments were not deleted and are at the discussion section still. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I would also like to read a response to the statement by GTBracchus. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 16:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Please respond to his statement if you have an objection, if not consider the issue settled and you have just admitted that you have no argument against it. Its that simple, there is nothing more to it. Rangeley 15:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Cabal

We may have an opportunity to put this all to rest with Nescio. He is seeking mediation and maybe a cool headed 3rd party can help end all of this for once. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-05 Wikipedia:WOT --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 20:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

WOT

Of course there is. An unnecessarily long reference to the Iraq War. Esaborio 02:53, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do. I do not support proven lies. Esaborio 03:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

What is a lie is that it IS part of the War on Terrorism. The rest in misinformation. Esaborio 03:05, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a US resolution, not a UN Security Council one, so of course it says what the US Government wants it to say: lies. Esaborio 03:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the truth. Esaborio 03:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

A Government can lie to make a campaign seem to fit in with another, unrelated one. Have you read the "Project for the New American Century"? I have. The Iraq War was planned years ago. Esaborio 03:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. In what you described in your "hypothetical situation", unlike what happens with the War on Terrorism and the Iraq War, both programs refer to the same problem: poverty, whereas those two wars do not refer to terrorism. Only the first one does. The other is about money, or in toppling a dictator, at best. Esaborio 03:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it is also against regimes who refuse to hand over terrorists that they harbour, when they are asked to, like the Taliban did. Esaborio 04:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant?! How convenient! That way the US can continue to lie to the world and attack other countries just for economic interests, no matter if their motives are proven to be lies. So basically you are saying that the War on Terrorism is a "blank check" for the US Government, right? Esaborio 04:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"We should recognize them as a part of the campaign because they are." Great argument... They are not, because the War on Terrorism is against terrorist organizations and regimes that refuse to hand terrorists over to proper authorities, and the Iraq War was against a regime that didn't refuse to hand over any terrorists. Esaborio 04:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

And what terrorist groups was the US supposed to stop by invading Iraq? And when was Saddam asked to stop sponsoring terrorism, as the Taliban were? That is no War on Terrorism, that is an aggression war, since Iraq had done nothing to the US, neither directly nor indirectly. Esaborio 05:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The US does not have the authority to attack any state it conveniently considers to be a sponsor of terrorism. It requires a resolution by the UN Security Council to do so, as was the case with Afghanistan. Esaborio 05:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It was begun based on lies, to make it look like it was part of the War on Terrorism. Ironically, it IS terrorism itself: state terrorism. Esaborio 05:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

What is a lie is that they were fighting terrorism, no matter what campaign it is said to be part of by the war hawks in Washington. And how can it be part of the War on Terrorism if the victims of the war are not sponsors of terrorism? That doesn't make any sense! It is like saying you are fighting drugs lords by killing cookie makers, because you see them as drug lords! Esaborio 05:54, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

"It is because the US says so". That is your only argument. If it didn't begin to fight terrorists there, nor did it begin to fight a regime for harboring terrorists, by logic it CANNOT be part of a War on Terrorism. Esaborio 06:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I just don't know of any proofs presented by the US to back that claim. Esaborio 06:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It does matter, because a war against innocent people isn't a War on Terrorism, it IS terrorism. The US shouldn't attack without any proof of links to terrorism. Esaborio 06:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

How can the inexistence of links to terrorism be irrelevant for a War on TERRORISM?! The term looses all of its meaning if you fight something that isn't terrorism under in its name. Esaborio 06:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

And where are it's proofs? Esaborio 06:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

So it is a war against anyone the US doesn't like, right? It is not about terrorism at all now... Esaborio 07:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

For considering Iraq a state sponsor of terror. Esaborio 07:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, then it is a war against anyone the US doesn't like. Your example is absurd, because beauty is subjective, while being a terrorist is objective. To call someone a terrorist you must back up your words with facts. Esaborio 07:17, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

No, being objective, there are two different campaings: one against terrorists in some places, and another which began against innocent people in Iraq. Esaborio 07:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That is no proof it sponsored terrorism. Esaborio 07:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Based on lies... Esaborio 07:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It matters, because logic dictates you can't fight one thing in the name of fighting another. Otherwise, this fight looses it's meaning. Esaborio 07:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the world was involved in some way in both World Wars, in the Cold War the US and the USSR never fought, and the War of 1812 began that year, hence their names. And there was no way they could have known during World War I that it wasn't going to end all wars. On the other hand, the US had the resources to find out before beginning the War on Terrorism which countries supported terrorism, via REAL intelligence. Esaborio 07:59, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Unlike the case here, because since the beginning they knew who was sponsoring terrorism and who wasn't. The US shoudn't label a campaign as part of the War on Terrorism when there is no evidence whatsoever of sponsorship of terrorism. Esaborio 08:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That is a no, indeed. Esaborio 08:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Not without sufficient proofs. It is relevant because they never proved their sponsorship of terrorism. And what I admitted is that US lied about the issue. Esaborio 05:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

No, they lied about saying it sponsored terrorism. A War on Terrorism should be fought against terrorist organizations and proven terrorist-sponsoring states. It was never proven that Iraq sponsored terrorism, the US just said it did, to justify their aggression. Where is their evidence? Esaborio 04:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I never addressed it?! Please see above. Esaborio 06:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

See my 04:54, 8 July 2006 reply. Esaborio 06:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Then read it again and again until you understand it. And stop wasting my time! Esaborio 06:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I answered your two "legitimate questions", and I explained why I removed that information after your revert, yet you keep asking. THAT is making me waste my time. Esaborio 06:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

STOP WASTING MY TIME! I told you to read my answer until you get it, and if you don't, too bad! Esaborio 06:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, what you don't understand is my answer, so I'll say this again: READ IT AND READ IT AND READ IT! Esaborio 06:48, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if you don't get (or just don't like) my answer, but I won't waste my time repeating myself. Esaborio 06:58, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What is really ludicrous is your interpretations ofmy answers. I haven't admitted such a thing, and never will, because I despise lies. The only thing you are right about is that the dabate is over. Esaborio 07:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

What is a lie? Read my answers again, dammit! Esaborio 07:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Read my answers again...! Esaborio 07:14, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Read my answers again... Esaborio 07:26, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

---

source

the source for the dead is in the article. However, wounded is imposible to varyfy and it is a low estimate.--Spoil29 17:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

MedCab: Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-05 Wikipedia:WOT

IN THE MEDIATION CABAL;Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-07-05 Wikipedia:WOT

After review of the case notes, the messages, the page itself, and the comments from Nescio quoted below, we have decided that the best course of action is to refer this matter to administrators for review.

To be clear this is not about the part of WOT debate, this is about the current team up to prohibit restoration of the original comments on the "poll," and the refusal to let me comment on that...Either restore all deleted comments to that page, or grant me the right to remove my remaining comments. Further I would like Zero to stop stalking me.

User conduct disputes, specifically ones that require or seek enforcement action, are not within our perview.We cannot make a blanket decision to revert deleted comments at the page in question, nor can we "grant the right to remove" anything from an article or talk page or generally enforce any action taken against undesirable user behavior as we are an informal group of mediators acting for the benefit of the encyclopedia.

The case is remanded to administrators for review. CQJ 06:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake has offered to assist in the matter further if necessary.Please contact him directly should you require his assistance.CQJ 06:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

/s/

CQJ 06:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC);

Clerk of the Mediation Cabal

2006 Arab-Israeli War

I replaced it with Arab-Israeli conflict because 2006 Arab-Israeli War is up for deletion, as no such event exists. See the talk on the page for more details, but essentially, we can't create that name if there is little or no usage in the mainstream press. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 20:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

		The Current Events Barnstar
		I hereby grant you this barnstar for your diligent editorial work on all of the articles concerning the 2006 Arab-Israeli War. Pifactorial 22:13, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Rangeley 01:00, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Image uploads

Hi.I would like to assume good faith.But your use of HTML comments on image uploads, as in this image, looks very much like an attempt to foil our image cleanup bots.It may be true that a "fair use" defense against copyright infringement would work for this and other images you have uploaded, but we need a real fair use rationale for each one, not a HTML comment.See Wikipedia:Image description page for what Wikipedia expects from a "fair use rationale", and Wikipedia:Fair use criteria for the handling of unfree content at Wikipedia.Jkelly 00:51, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just replicated the method that El_C used on this: [38], which was also from the IDF website. As he was an admin, I figured he knew what he was doing. Rangeley 00:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I see.I'll ask User:El C to provide real rationales as well.Thanks for explaining.Jkelly 01:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please visit the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda page

The page does not currently meet wikipedia standards.It is both too long and far too POV to be considered a quality article.I have been working on a rewrite but have encountered resistance from an editor who does not like the "POV shift" of my rewrite.You can read the latest version (draft) of the rewrite on my sandbox. [39]The article Talk page discusses several of the issues.I have invited two people to act as informal mediators.One of them was chased off by the intransigent editor who opposes the POV shift. The second editor said he thought the debate "was dead in the water."That is hardly the position needed for someone to act as a mediator.I would appreciate you taking a look. RonCram 04:01, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Nescio RfC

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Nescio Dropping this on your page to review as you were involved in the disputes. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 13:53, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Sneakiness

My edit and the summary was intended for the "Donald Ferrone" thing, and your edit got inadvertently caught in the middle. Sorry about that. Zocky | picture popups 06:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

you are correct. thanks for restoring the map

I was about to self revert Zeq 07:41, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Re:Image

Any claim of POV here is ridiculous, a point which you've made sufficiently clear in extensive discussion on talk. While it may be more relevant to have a slightly more active picture, being as we have no access to one at the moment, this is certainly a good choice. Keep up the good work, Tewfik^Talk 16:52, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, the same is true of you. How would you feel about removing the POV tag? I haven't seen any recent discussion on talk, nor noted any specifically disputed passages. Tewfik^Talk 17:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis#I.27ve_added_Iran

Could you please add your further comment at 2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis#I.27ve_added_Iran. I'm about to add Iran back, but I want your opinion first Hello32020 17:01, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Link is actually Talk:2006_Israel-Lebanon_crisis#I.27ve_added_Iran.

Learn to read

This is my resposne to you both in my talk page and in the talk page of the 2006 Lebanon-Israel crisis.

"Rangley, others have said and I agree: you have displayed a lack of good faith and have an attitude. For example, you seem to have misread me. In my original message I argued not about NPOV, which is next to impossible to achieve in a picture (unless we do a composite which is ugly), but for newsworthyness. My message is there for all to read. What I didn't like about the 3 binocular picture is that it is a propaganda picture with no news value at all, besides being bland and boring. Its three guys with binos, nothing special. Now the current picture with the IDF artillery piece its a better one, but I hope we can find something more human, or that conveys the human aspect of warfare better. That is my sole arguement, and you are setting a strawman by arguing against something I havent argued for.--Cerejota 20:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC) "

I never argued pictures had to be NPOV. Learn to read and have some more good faith. --Cerejota 20:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

I noticed you reverted this page with the edit summary "revert vandalism".I don't think the other user's edits qualify as vandalism, since vandalism is editing that's done with the intention of reducing the quality of the article, and the other person made that edit because he believes the article is better the other way.He may be wrong, but this is a content dispute, not a case of vandalism.It's important to civility not to simply label edits you disagree with as vandalism.--Mr. Billion 21:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

In the town I live in there was someone who painted a building downtown with quite the artistic image, it dealt with wanting troops to come home from Iraq if I recall correctly. He did it because, in his mind, the building needed it. He didnt do it to lower the quality of the building, but to raise it. But it did lower its quality, and it was still vandalism. It was later removed. I suppose thats the difference between my definition of yours, I beleive people can vandalise even when they have best intentions at heart. I beleive Esaborio is convinced in his mind that he is right, however he refuses to discuss and simply reverts. I will call that what it is, Vandalism. ~Rangeley (talk) 21:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

That's an interesting story, but a key distinction is that the person you mention was (I assume) not supposed to paint that mural, and did so without the building owner's permission.Randomly repainting buildings is generally illegal.Editing Wikipedia articles is not.
Review Wikipedia: Vandalism."Vandalism is any addition, deletion, or change to content made in a deliberate attempt to reduce the quality of the encyclopedia."Simply making edits with which you disagree is not vandalism.Please don't use the phrase "vandalism" to denigrate people with whom you disagree. --Mr. Billion

It is generally considered against the rules to continuously revert things without explaining why. I suppose this could be equated to the individual asking the owner of the store if they could paint the building. While getting permission is not exactly the same as explaining why you are persistently reverting, it is quite similar. I opened a dialogue with Esaborio earlier this month, and after a certain point he ceased to raise new points and continuously said "read my post again," which you can find somewhere above this section. So to clarify, I do not consider every edit for which I disagree to be vandalism, that is just silly. But when someone leaves the discussion table and reverts without explanation, 3 times I beleive over the past few days, I do consider it to be a vandalistic, though possibly well intentioned, edit. But as Wikipedia seems to disagree on terminology, I will not label such things as vandalism any further due to the obvious confusion that it creates. ~Rangeley (talk) 23:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

All right, thanks. --Mr. Billion 00:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Conflict Temp cleanup

I was trying to remove the double citation of "CNN4" from the "casualties2" section of the template and was met with the whole thing coming apart. Want to take a look and see if you have better luck? Thanks, Tewfik^Talk 21:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess so. If you have some time though, try to remove the second one instead and preview. The entire thing comes apart. I tried playing with it a bit to see what was causing that effect but couldn't isolate the responsible markup. Tewfik^Talk 21:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, check this diff - I'm not sure what happened but it look like content got cut off...Tewfik^Talk 21:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

IRGC

it's is not active participant in conflict.nor has any direct role in in suppling the hezbollah with arms.

Saddam/al-Qaeda

i noticed you put the pov tag on the article.could you please participate in the ongoing debate about a rewrite.your input could be valuable. thanks. Anthonymendoza 21:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

RfAr involving Zero

Apparently mediation does not improve the current conflict I have with this user. Since I am at my wits end I have filed a case at ArbCom. This is to notify you should you wish to comment there.Nomen Nescio^{Gnothi seauton} 11:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults.Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults/Evidence.You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tony Sidaway 10:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

POV

This picture is POV because it shows only Israeli attack and not Hezbollah--Shrike 16:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

So why not post Hizballah katuasha launchers?--Shrike 11:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

War on Terrorism

Hello. See here: [40]. Esaborio 22:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do you ask questions you already know the answers for? Remeber this discussion: [41]?

No, you failed to understand reasons. I have already explained my motives, sorry if you just don't like them for being biassed. And what "unwillingness" are you talking about? I explained countless times to you what you have asked answers for. Again, sorry if you don't like them, but they are here: [42]. Esaborio 22:35, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I have explained it to you countless times. I am sorry if you "fail to understand" my explanations. Your atttitude just shows how biassed you are on the issue. Esaborio 22:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Like this: [43]? Esaborio 22:47, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Denying my explanation won't make it dissapear, so stop your childish behavior try to understand them instead of just pretending they aren't there. Esaborio 22:55, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but it will be the last time: "And how can it be part of the War on Terrorism if the victims of the war are not sponsors of terrorism? That doesn't make any sense! It is like saying you are fighting drugs lords by killing cookie makers, because you see them as drug lords!" I posted that on 6 July 2006, at 05:54. Esaborio 23:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

See above. Their definition can't be based on nothing. Esaborio 23:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

My answer is there, you just don't like it. You are completely biassed... Esaborio 23:28, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it is the dictionary's. Esaborio 23:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I did provide it time and again, but since instead of (trying to) refute it you are unwilling to admit that I provided an explanation, I just won't waste my time playing your games anymore. Good bye. Esaborio 23:36, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverting

Blindly reverting with the intent of making the encyclopedia is not vandalism. On the other hand, transcluded sigs are expressly banned by WP:SIG. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out, wasnt aware there was a different signature policy than Uncyclopedia. As far as blind reverting goes, I guess you must be right, its a good policy. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hipocrite RFC

Rangeley, History21, would either of you be interested in joining an RFC regarding Hipocrite's recent edits?(I've drafted one here).I don't want to start a big confrontation with Hipocrite, who I'm sure is a fine editor, but I find his reversions troubling.Thanks, TheronJ 21:17, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

RFC re History21 Reverts and Comments

Rangeley, History21, TruthCrusader:

FYI, I've named you all as parties who attempted to resolve the issues raised at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Hipocrite.

Thanks, TheronJ 22:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

History21 is a sock

See this, this, and this. rootology (T) 00:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:54995.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:54995.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the source and creator of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images.If you don't indicate the source and creator of the image on the image's description page, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days.If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided source information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

• Wikipedia:Image use policy
• Wikipedia:Image copyright tags

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot.For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 07:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Photo "Downtown SJ"

Thank you for taking the time to upload the photo of "Downtown SJ". Unfortunately, there is an ongoing debate on the discussion page for the Saint John article on the size and content of the SJ article. This photo is not helpful. I am removing it. Please understand. If you have any comments, see the SJ talk page. Thanks. DDD DDD 03:13, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Back

Did not see the vacation tag at the top. Just noticed you popping up on my watchlist, welcome back. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 17:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, and yea I just got back two days ago. I was glad to see the consensus for things remained. It seems we can actually start working on other things for once. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

How do you feel about the eastern europe mention as a theatre of operation, and what should go there? I only left it because it was there before and I did not want to start too much drama over changing too much of the article, but should we either remove its mention or add a short thing on the locations listed? I am kind of against the whole Chechen war being added, its all based from what I understand on Russia saying they are fighting a war against terrorists, and russian media accusing them of trying to link the chechen rebels to the war on terrorism the US is fighting. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 17:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I consider the Chechen War seperate due to it having started years before the WoT and being a different sort of dispute anyways. It wasnt begun as a part of the same WoT campaign and is not a part of the same WoT Campaign today. I am more open to things such as the Israel-Lebanon conflict being considered a part, because it began since, is targetting a terrorist group according to the USA, is claimed by the Israelis to be part of the same war, and by atleast some in the US government. The only problem is that this would open up a whole new quagmire of debates. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Notably this: [44] ~Rangeley (talk) 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I am open to the Lebanon situation as well, however I see the events fo the entire Intifada being added if that happens. So I am one the fence I guess overall. I will remove Europe from the War on Terrorism article for now however. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 18:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea, that would be good. I dont think the whole intifada should be included, it began before it and was for different reasons. ~Rangeley (talk) 18:33, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Copperchair and Larry Lawrence

Based on discussions with TomTheHand I don't think that Larry Lawrence is an actual sockpuppet of Copperchair. However, I have created a CheckUser request to check on Larry and his multitude of sockpuppets. I'll go ahead and add Kevin Taylor to the queue. Thanks! --Bobblehead 20:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Hmm

polls closed at 8 am cst. Those votes are past that time. --Zonerocks 17:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Result

Wouldn't it be considered a new conflict or new operation if fightining later resumes though? --GoOdCoNtEnT 21:30, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A little overdue

		The Original Barnstar
		This slightly late Barnstar is awarded to you for your great work in redoing the War on Terrorism article, Thank you for your great contributions to Wikipedia. --zero faults |sockpuppets| 12:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Help

Glad for helping at the Afghan articles. Now, take a look at my new Dagestan War article: any suggestions, linkings would be greatly appreciated. --TheFEARgod 21:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Changed screenshot

Why did you change my screenshot for Uncyclopedia?-- Selmo 04:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Copperchair

I do not know how to setup sockpuppet checks, but User:Don't fear the Reaper made the same edits, adding future to WW3, reverting the template etc. removing Iraq from WOT related article and the WOT:Allies page. --zero faults ^{|sockpuppets|} 12:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yea, I noticed that last night too. Hes been dealt with already: Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Copperchair (6th) ~Rangeley (talk) 15:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:Massoud2000.png listed for deletion

An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, Image:Massoud2000.png, has been listed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion. Please look there to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. BigDT 17:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The above images

Per your comments on my talk page, I have tagged these images for deletion.Also, please see my reply there - I tried to give a good explanation of fair use philosophy on Wikipedia. BigDT 20:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

I just wanted to thank you for sticking up for me. In all this craziness, its reassuring to know that editors who may disagree on certain issues can still step back from the debate as colleagues. Again, I'm extremely appreciative of your actions, and I'm glad to have worked with you on this article. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 07:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Map

I know it may sound ridiculous, but i saw this map u created. if u ever think of updating or fixing it, pls include Crete in Greece as well:). Thanks --Hectorian 22:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Re: Copperchair Returns?

Sorry for not responding to the message you left on my talk.I've been on kind of a Wikibreak lately, as I've been swamped with real-life work.Anyway, I agree with you that that IP's edits are suspicious.However, it hasn't been active lately (though it was when you left me the message), and I'd probably want more evidence to block an IP than I would to block a user name.I'm still a newbie admin and I want to be careful.Please continue to keep an eye out for Copperchair and let me know what you see. TomTheHand 15:16, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, Reverts without even a summary are not helpful

How did this guy ever become an administrator? He obviously is exerting bias.I put in something with an academic reference and he took it down with only a "yea, right" comment in the edit box. Pretty ungentlemanly for an admin. Dogru144 18:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Admin? ~Rangeley (talk) 21:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

War on Terrorism edits

Can you please explain why you removed 2 sourced entries ( here and here) from the War on Terrorism article?Both were from reliable sources and the sources seem to jive with the entry that they were associated with. In the case of the first, there was discussion on the talk page, but no consensus to remove it. I'm going to go ahead and revert your removals, please do not remove unsourced material without consensus in the future. --Bobblehead 02:54, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

1. It's still a valid criticism of WoT. And your reasoning is contrary to the name and the stated goal of the WoT, which is to end international terrorism... You may not agree with it, but the source does support what it is associated with.

2. Editorials are Reliable Sources and even though the US government does not intend for the raising of terror levels to improve Bush's popularity, it has that effect.Rather than delete the entire entry, how about a rewrite to remove the POV? Much more preferable than outright deleting without explanation.

I'm sorry the other editor resorted to a personal attack, but still doesn't justify removal of sourced material. --Bobblehead 03:40, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Read the first sentence of the article, then come back and say it's not against a tactic.;) Taking out Hezbollah, al Qaeda, and the other terrorist organizations listed in the article won't end international terrorism.
2. Thanks for the intelligent response. Shame the source doesn't agree with that assessment.

--Bobblehead 04:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults

This case is now closed and the results have been published at the link above. Zer0faults is placed on Probation. He may be banned for an appropriate period of time from an article or set of articles which he disrupts by tendentious editing or edit warring. All bans to be logged at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Zer0faults#Log of blocks and bans. For the Arbitration Committee. FloNight 02:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Redirect Bill O'Reilly to Bill O'Reilly (commentator)

Hi sorry to bother you but I started a new vote to have 'bill oreilly' routed directly to bill oreilly (commentator) and the current bill oreilly page made teh bill oreilly (disambiguation) page. This vote is taking place at Talk:Bill_O'Reilly#New_Vote_on_Disambiguation_page The previous vote was posted on the Cricket fan activism group to pull votes and so it seems only fair to inform people who might find it convenient to link directly to a page used more often.Mrdthree 07:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hi Rangeley,

I just noticed the Barnstar, and I wanted you to know how appreciative I am of it - especially coming from you. Different users will inevitably have different preconceptions about various issues based on their own experiences and background, and it is comforting to know that we can embrace that without letting it get in the way of building an objective, high-quality reference. Again, it was a pleasure disagreeing with you ( ), and I hope to collaborate with you again in the future. Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 15:38, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

After seeing the multiple topic headings personally targetting you and the way you handled it, you definately earned the barnstar. ~Rangeley (talk) 19:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The question of civil war

Hi Rangeley! You're an editor I respect and I'd like to ask you about the decision to avoid the phrase "civil war" when discussing the situation in Iraq. It seems to me that refusing to lable a factional conflict in which tens of thousands of people are dying a "civil war" violates NPOV. I can find virtually no objective definition of "civil war" in the relevant literature that does not apply to such large scale sectarian violence. Of course this issue remains controversial. But I worry that adopting the "sectarian violence" label and avoding the term "civil war" is to gloss the truth in a manner that violates our community standards. Even if you supported the war (I did), that's no excuse to adopt pro-war rhetoric in the description of the current state of affairs. Anyway, I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on the matter.Benzocane 15:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

re: Not sure what to do here

Hi Rangeley.

I can see from the links you gave me that you're having a slightly frustrating interaction with Timeshifter.I agree with you that the conversation in question is more germane in the User talk: namespace, but he seems not to want it on his talk page.Personally, I'd let that part slide.He wants the conversation to be at Talk:Iraq War, even though it isn't particularly appropriate there; whatever.Putting the comments back onto someone's talk page after they've removed them twice is going to generate more heat than light, 10 times out of 10.I'd just post a response to his comments indicating that he's incorrect, as anybody who looks into it will see.Since this is a wiki, your contributions are viewable by anyone who cares to check.I'd just post a simple factual rebuttal to his statement, and move on.You could even mention (without casting aspersions - keep it real professional, y'know) that you think the comments are in the wrong place, but that when you tried to move them, they were moved back.Then if you can refocus the conversation on the images that are actually being discussed, everybody wins... more or less.

I realize this "solution" doesn't exactly get what you want, which is that conversation moved to the right place.I just don't think that particular battle is worth your energy.

If he's a habitually difficult editor, then something like a user RfC could be appropriate, especially if multiple editors are noticing a similar problem from the same user.Like you say, though, the wiki is full of difficult people, and you can't RfC all of them.Arguing with them so seldom renders them less difficult, that it becomes essential to choose one's battles.I decided a while ago not to fight with anybody about their own talk page.

I hope that helps, and I wish you good luck. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Re: Hebrew

Hi there - long time no speak . Palestine48's translation is pretty much accurate. The only change I would make is "Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip." Cheers, Tewfik^Talk 07:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Somalian War

I'll be happy to talk about my deletion nomination at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Somalian War. – Zntrip 03:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

1. can you tell me why you rushed in creating this article, the war can happen, but it has not yet begun. But, if it takes place I will support something like this --TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
2. If Ethiopians enter the fighting I suggest an article Ethiopian war in Somalia. If all the Horn of Africa gets engulfed I suggest 2006 Horn of Africa War--TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
3. I offer my assistance in creating a thing of the Somali Civil War similar to our Afghan Civil War split.--TheFEARgod (Ч) 13:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Operation Autumn Clouds

I've done my best to tidy the article on Operation Autumn Clouds, which you recently started. Regards, KazakhPol 03:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, and thanks for the keep vote. I cant stand it when someone puts an article up for deletion so fast, it really puts a stop to improvements. ~Rangeley (talk) 03:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Somali AFD

That really annoyed me. I cant believe they deleted the page! It's because it was in Africa. If it had been in Europe or North America it would have been "important" enough to have its own article. Jeez. KazakhPol 04:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Name change

See this: 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict A user (El C I think) changed the name and blocked from moving it). Utter nonsense. Cheers--TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I brought it up with him on his talk page. Thanks for pointing it out to me, I didnt even notice. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

OS

Just wondering, if you wouldn't mind telling me, what Opperating System you are using? --TheNunOwnedGoat 05:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Why do you ask? ~Rangeley (talk) 05:54, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Iraq War

Please participate in the talk page discussion before reinserting that Iraq is part of the War on Terror into the infobox. If you would like to cite the speech in the article text (and I'm sure you could find others), I think that its clear that the Bush Administration has frequently referred to the Iraq War as part of the War on Terrorism. However, this position is far from universally held, and, as such, is ill-suited for an infobox, which is meant to contain non-controversial information, like basic facts. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 23:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

All of those points are very interesting, but the U.S. government is only one of the many combattants in the Iraq war and Wikipedia is not written from their perspective. I'm fine with a category, fine with the WOT template, but the connection between the Iraq War and the WOT is something that has to be discussed in the article text; it's not cut and dry enough for a template. If you are not interested in discussing this anymore, I'd ask that you not revert. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:43, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

You'll notice I haven't been reverting. However, I've looked through all the archives, and the consensus was not nearly as clear cut as you describe, certainly not water-tight enough to justify disallowing all future discussions. I think this issue should be rediscussed, and plan on submitting a request for comment. Even if one accepts the unevidenced assertion that all the members of the MNF agree that its part of the WOT, that's really only one side of the equation. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 02:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not "ignoring consensus." The informal poll (as much as I dislike those) ended 15-11 against including it. I don't think it should be worded that we either, I think it shouldn't be included in the infobox, and instead should be discussed in the article text where there is room to have multiple references and explain situations that are slightly more complex than one-size-fits-all templates tend to allow. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 02:35, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm relatively familiar with Wikipedia's policy, familiar enough to know that WP:CONSENSUS does not trump policies like WP:NPOV. I'd prefer, at this point, to discuss this on the article talk page. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 02:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

consensus

Read the talk page on the Iraq War page; the consensus is cited by Savidian in that discussion. csloat 03:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Feel free to continue the discussion on the issue, but please stop misrepresenting the discussion as having been "settled" in your favor.I agree a straw poll is not a consensus but is the only measure we have so far on the issue.The discussion is ongoing, and will probably continue for a very long time, but at the moment it appears your view of "consensus" is misleading at the very best. csloat 08:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see my participation in that discussion; I participated in the other one and thought the matter settled by the earlier consensus.The June poll looks like vote-stacking and was called that by a number of people who participated in the discussion you linked.Neither poll represents a consensus.This thing really comes down to the arguments on both sides which is why I suggested it be settled in the body of the article, not in a silly infobox. csloat 22:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't edit war

Right now, there definitely is no strong consensus that the "part of the war on terror" wording should be included in the infobox.Many people feel it violates NPOV.The two polls seem to suggest a consensus that it should be removed-- but there definitely isn't a consensus that it should be included.Discuss, keep trying to change opinions, but don't edit war by adding it back in until there is a strong consensus that it belongs there. --Alecmconroy 04:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've replied at Talk:Iraq War --Alecmconroy 08:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

WoT Sisyphyian Debate

KeeperOTD to Rangeley

I've just finished reading the endless, cyclical debate on the infobox issue of "U.S. War On Terror".Primarily, I got there by wondering what was "wrong" with the neutrality of the original article as it seemed as even handed as it could be (given the emotional and divisive pov's on all sides). History has yet to reach final verdict on this issue but for right now, Wikipedia seems to have done it's best to represent the War in Iraq.

Anyway, I agree with the reasoning for going with "U.S. War On Terror" but my reason for posting is this: well done man.

I have to say, I would have gone insane attempting to reason with people that think that Wikipedia is a Stallion built by committee and believe their pov is crucial to that committee.In some ways it is, but there is a limit to how many viewpoints can be expressed/included and which "facts" are more relevant than others.The saying about "not being able to please all of the people all of the time" should be understood by the people that seem to keep missing the point(s) (deliberately or otherwise) and just accepted that "consensus" and "compromise" are not the end all, be all of the universe.There just comes a point where a decision is reached to call an "apple" an "apple" and everybody should move on instead of ranting about what kind of apple it is or whether apple sauce should really be lumped under the "apple" article as it might "confuse people".

It's not helpful to anyone to have an infobox that says, "An Apple Or The 1,000 Other Things An Apple Is Called By The Group of Reality Impaired Peanut-gallery Elitists (or GRIPE) Who All Had A Variation or Viewpoint/Axe To Grind on the Name of this Fruit (which might not be a fruit depending on the lunacy and/or conspiracy theorist level of the person in question)..."

Wikipedia should be clear and informative but that doesn't mean worrying about (or pandering to) the "dumbest" or most easily confused reader that might wander into the virtual room.It wouldn't be practical to explain in detail of every nuance, dispute, and so on of every single sentence of every article to satisfy every single reader.Clearly, Wikipedia expects a person to either understand things at a certain level or have the assertiveness to look up the linked words/concepts/footnotes of the things they don't understand.

To wrap things back up, I think you handled the issue very well and kept your cool, even in the midst of those who were clearly arguing just to argue.I myself would have exploded and just refused to debate any further; particularly the third time you had to explain the concept of "campaign" and it's importance to the issue (which I thought was both right on the nose and the best reason for calling the "apple" an "apple").

Keep up the good work. "KeeperOTD 01:20, 23 December 2006 (UTC)"