Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 37
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Archive 30 | ← | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 |
The Beatles
![]() | Closing, as this has not been commented on for almost two weeks. Feel free to file another case here if dispute resolution becomes necessary again. (If you do file another case, I recommend simply linking to this thread to save typing everything out again.) Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions about this. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 13:26, 9 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
Sorry to bother busy clerks, however I need some outside input. I may well be wrong, overreacting or both, however I am having an issue with User:DocKino at The Beatles. I believe said user is inappropriately "rolling-back" sections of the article to one of their preferred versions, perhaps here, from 2009 or here, from 2011, or some version in between. DocKino has made these edits without any prior discussion at the talk page or regard for the numerous hours of work that had been put into the material by several editors since the last incarnation they endorsed. Disclosure: During my extensive copyedit of the article (approximately November 2011-April 2012), I did in fact make several undiscussed deletions for the sake of brevity and accuracy, however, to my knowledge no one ever reverted any of them of any substance, objected to or even discussed anything in that regard with me while I was devoting numerous hours copyediting the article. Indeed, I have over 11,000 edits to my credit including over 1,000 at the Beatles article and in 2.5 years on wikipedia only 47 of my edits have been deleted. I would have been more than willing to discuss any of my edits, as they were occuring, however I do not think rolling them back two months later, without any discussion is appropriate. Are these "restorations" of content or the use of sub rosa "rollbacks" in a content dispute? Clarification: I am well aware that DocKino does not actually have rollbacker rights, nor do these edits in the strickest sense constitute technical rollbacks, however, my point here is that DocKino's edits are de facto rollbacks, achieved manually via copy-paste from previous versions. In other words, one can rollback paragraphs, sections, or entire articles, in one edit, or in several, piece by piece, without ever actually using a rollback in the technical sense. Examples:
I've omitted several examples that if taken alone, look like perfectly good content work, however, if you study the edits carefully, in their totality, you'll notice that 80-90% or more of the restored material is included nearly verbatim in either the FA version from nearly three years ago or this version from November 2011. I've made numerous attempts to resolve issues with them at Talk:The Beatles, as well as at DocKino's talk page, to which I received no reply. Any thoughts, suggestions? — GabeMc (talk) 21:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have made attempts on the user and article talk pages.
By determining if this type of restoration/reversion/rollback was used appropriately. — GabeMc (talk) 21:44, 23 June 2012 (UTC) The Beatles discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
You may see some delays in getting to this issue. Please be patient. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
Clerk Comment: Hello. I am a volunteer/clerk here at DRN. This is not meant to imply that I have any sort of authority or enforcement rights; I'm just an editor (with some experience resolving disputes) who is working here to help establish consensus. First, a couple "rules of order": this appears to be a rather complex issue, so patience will be important from everyone involved - just remember that we're not in a hurry. Also, try to keep your comments short and sweet - long responses are going to cause the discussion to string out. Okay, GabeMc - I see you've also filed a thread about this issue at WP:WQA. That is, of course, up to you (and DRN is for addressing content, not conduct), but after looking at all of the talk pages involved, and I have to wonder if a WQA is really necessary. I don't see signs of incivility or "bullying" (as you put it). Yes, you have the option of carrying out the WQA, and I wouldn't try to stop you if you really think it's necessary; the only reason I'm bringing it up is because I think this will be easier for everyone if we keep all of this discussion in one place. Now, on to the matter at hand. You contend that DocKino is performing de facto "rollbacks". What is the contentious content that is being "rolled back"? I need both sides here - first, DocKino, since you are the one performing the reverts, the onus is on you to explain why. What part of GabeMc's additions/changes to the article do you object to, and why? Sleddog116 (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
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Public opinion on health care reform in the United States
![]() | Closing due to no activity on the thread in over five days. Feel free to file another case here if there are more problems. Best — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 13:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
The dispute is over whether certain polls should be described as polls regarding single-payer (diff). To me they clearly are, the sources identify them as single-payer polls and while wording affects the outcome of the polls, the content of the polls, comparing a healthcare plan to Medicare (US) and Canada etc. is clearly single-payer since those are single-payer systems and are identified as such in other wiki articles. The argument against that seems to be either that (a) Americans don't know what single-payer is or (b) those aren't single-payer systems so it doesn't work on polls, none of which is supported anywhere. As far as I can tell, the sources all say that they are polls regarding single-payer so there's no reason not to say so. CartoonDiablo (talk) 18:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Discussed it on the page.
Deciding whether or not those are polls regarding single-payer. CartoonDiablo (talk) 18:13, 28 June 2012 (UTC) Public opinion on health care reform in the United States discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
This ultimately seems premature. Discussion is happening at the talk page, and I'm relatively confident we can come to some sort of conclusion. If anyone feels the need to input, the polls are described by media organizations differently than the questions that were asked. Thus, the questions reflect an opinion from the populace that is different than what CartoonDiablo wants to include in the article. I thought we reached a good compromise, apparently s/he disagrees. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2012 (UTC) I placed the pov-check tag that prompted this dispute, but I am otherwise unfamiliar with the past history of the editors and articles involved. I placed the tag after noticing that the polls CartoonDiabolo added were sourced from an explicitly partisan and non-neutral web site. I would like a clearer idea of where this data is from, what it is intended to add to the article, and whether there might be other data that was selectively omitted from the source web site (as I noted that even that website qualified their list as "polls showing support for a single payer system", suggesting that there might be other polls not on the list which had different results). All that said, I am not on any particular side of this dispute and would prefer that someone more familiar with the issues in question take a look at it. -- LWG talk 22:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I have copied this discussion to the article talk page. Please discuss it further there. -- LWG talk 02:24, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Having taken a closer look at the dispute and the sources involved, I think I have a better idea of what is going on. There seems to be several intertwined issues here. Would both of you agree with the following summary?
Whew, this is too much text for one posting. I will post my understanding of the facts and questions facing us shortly, but in the meantime do you both agree that this summary fairly reflects what has happened so far? -- LWG talk 23:18, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
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I'm with You World Tour
![]() | Closing due to lack of discussion on the article's talk page. There is advice for the involved editors on how to proceed in my comment below. — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 13:13, 9 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Dispute overview
Currently there is a edit war happening on the page between myself and another user who up until a few days has made zero contributions to the article and has begun making massive edits mostly based on their personal opinions and not facts. They refuse their edits with anyone else. I have spent over a year keeping the page updated and accurate and understand this is a site free to anyone to edit however myself and others are pretty much being blocked from this person who feels their edits are the only ones that matter. I even recieved a First Warning after asking this person to discuss it on the talk page but they keep insiting on being childish. Users involved
I noticed on their talk page their edits haaven't been so well recieved in other articles and they seem to have a habit of making random edits without responding to anyone.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Yes. I tried to discuss it with this person, asked them why they made these edits and the response was mostly due to personal feelings and not facts.
Jason1978 (talk) 06:48, 8 July 2012 (UTC) I'm with You World Tour discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Hello Jason1978, and thanks for posting to this board. I'm a volunteer here at the dispute resolution noticeboard, and I thought I'd let you know my opinion on the situation. Looking over this dispute, the first thing I notice is that there hasn't been any substantial discussion on the article's talk page. It's actually a requirement of this noticeboard that editors involved in a dispute make a good-faith attempt to find a consensus on the talk page before a case can be filed here. (I see that you have posted on each other's user talk pages, but I don't really see a discussion taking place at all.) For this reason, I'll close this case after you've had the time to read this message. However, I also want to give you some advice before you take this back to the talk page. First, it is always a very good idea to assume good faith on the part of the other editors involved in any dispute. It is all too easy to assume that if we don't like an edit, then the person making it has bad intentions; however, in all my time being involved in dispute resolution on Wikipedia, I have seen that this is very rarely the case. Most often, there is a perfectly valid reason for the other editor's actions, maybe because of a Wikipedia policy that we didn't know about, or some other reason. I think that in this case, both of you are acting in good faith. Once you have both found out the reasons why the other editor has been doing what they have been doing, it is much more likely that you'll be able to find a solution on your own. One very good way to understand what the other editor's reasons for their edits are is to break down the dispute into separate issues. In this case, I spotted four or five different points on which you seem to be disagreeing. I suggest discussing each of these separately, one at a time. This should make things manageable, and get you focused on talking about the content, rather than what you might perceive the other editor's motives to be. Also, I noticed that itsbydesign mentioned WP:SOURCES in one of their edit summaries. If Itsbydesign is questioning some of the sources in the article, as this suggests, then it would probably best to make this the focus of the discussion. If the sources aren't suitable for backing up the claims for which they are used, then it might be best to find another source, or to leave those claims out. Or it might turn out to be that the sources were fine, and the material should be left in. (But bear in mind that other Wikipedia policies may also apply.) If you have any specific questions about sources, then they would best be directed to the reliable sources noticeboard. If you still can't find a consensus after discussing the issue, feel free to file another case here, and we can look at other ways to resolve things. Also, please let me know if you have any questions about any of this. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 08:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
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File:OUTtv logo.png
![]() | Stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:28, 11 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
the user, User:Fry1989 is continuously reverting the image that I uploaded, which I've clearly explained to him or her as the correct image for the article, the logo for the television channel OUTtv. I've outlined my points and provided proof of my explanation in the user's talk page and in the edit summary of the article. The user continues to act inappropriately and in my opinion is vandalizing the article. Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
I have tried speaking to the user directly on the talk page and in the article summary, which has lead to no resolution. The user has acted inappropriately from the very start which has led both of us on a downward spiral ever since.
Come to a decision on which image is the correct one. Block Fry1989 (talk · contribs) for vandalism. musimax. (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2012 (UTC) File:OUTtv logo.png discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
Protected for a week. Xavexgoem (talk) 00:21, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
This is very plainly a conduct dispute. Xavexgoem (talk) 20:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
If there is no response, this thread will be closed 24 hours after this time: August 29, 2024 at 01:39 (UTC) Reason: Appears to be stale or resolved. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC) The new file appears to be accepted, and the old file is tagged for deletion. DrKiernan (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
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Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen
![]() | No discussion for five days. Please note that opening a new discussion on the same topic is allowed, and may very well avoid the issues that stalled this one. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:18, 12 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Dispute overview
The question is whether to include a passage describing a paper published by Boehmer-Christiansen (editor of the journal Energy and Environment): JournalScholar has repeatedly deleted a passage asserting that, as noted by Gavin Schmidt (a member of RealClimate), the paper claims that the sun is made of iron. That passage is supported by The Guardian (quote: "Schmidt points to an E&E paper that claimed that the Sun is made of iron"). JournalScholar's argument is that the source is wrong. If one digs into some of the sources used by The Guardian, I think it's clear the source is not wrong -- certainly not in conveying the perception that other scholars have about that paper's author. Users involved
It's worth noting, I think, that although JS first edited on Wikipedia several years ago he/she became active at a normal level only last month and seems unfamiliar with some core policies, including WP:CONSENSUS and WP:V. The edit history of the article shows at least one instance of editing beyond WP:3RR, and the article is now protected. JS has also now been warned under WP:ARBCC.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
extensive talk-page discussion
help editors to understand the relevance of core Wikipedia policies/guidelines, and help judge the use of the relevant sources Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:31, 4 July 2012 (UTC) Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. We need more volunteers; see Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Guide for details. I would like to focus for a moment on this edit. At issue is the statement "Gavin Schmidt asserted that Boehmer-Christiansen published — against the recommendations of a reviewer — a paper in Energy & Environment claiming that the sun is made of iron." specifically, the part that says "...claiming that the sun is made of iron". That statement was added here. The source cited is The Guardian and the URL is [ http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/feb/25/real-climate-libel-threat ]. So, does the cited source say that Gavin Schmidt asserted that Boehmer-Christiansen published a paper claiming that the sun is made of iron.? Before I answer that, note that the article does not claim that the paper actually says that the sun is made of iron. What we are looking for is Gavin Schmidt's assertion. Here is a direct quote from the article: "As an example, Schmidt points to an E&E paper that claimed that the Sun is made of iron. 'The editor sent it out for review, where it got trashed (as it should have been), and [Boehmer-Christiansen] published it anyway,' he says." JournalScholar, could you please explain, in detail, why you deleted the above with the edit comment "No such quote is found on source of Gavin stating any such thing"? Were you under the impression that we can't include a statement like "John Smith asserted that unicorns exist" if unicorns don't actually exist? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:57, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
Avanu, I am quite familiar with WP:RS. It would be helpful if you were to stop quoting basic Wikipedia policy at me while implying that I somehow wrote something that contradicts policy. Also, I am trying to help the editors of Sonja Boehmer-Christiansen to resolve a dispute. Perhaps you can pick a more appropriate venue to argue about interpreting Wikipedia policy. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC) JournalScholar, You may think that you already explained it, but your explanation appears to be in conflict with Wikipedia's policies on verifiability and reliable sources. I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong, and I hope that you are as well. Could you tell me the exact wording of the part of WP:V that you believe it violates? The Guardian meets Wikipedia's criteria for being a reliable source. It sounds like you are arguing that material that is in reliable sources must be verified elsewhere. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:25, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I, like Guy Macon, am a regular volunteer here at DRN. I disagree that any of the formulations which has the Guardian saying anything about Manuel's paper is proper. The only thing being asserted by the Guardian, and the only thing that the Guardian's fact-checkers would have checked, is that Schmidt said something. That is clearly indicated by both the context in which the paragraph in question appears in the Guardian article and the terms, "Schmidt points to ... he says." The Guardian article, at least not the paragraph in question (I express no opinion about the rest of that article), is not a reliable source for any direct assertion about Boehmer-Christiansen or the journal she edits but, instead, only about what Schmidt said about them. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
NPOV 1. Is the characterization; "that claimed the Sun is made of iron" or "a paper claiming that the Sun is made of iron" a NPOV representation of the paper titled Earth's Heat Source - The Sun, which is discussing climate change on Earth?, http://multi-science.metapress.com/content/v3600623g8txh577/ --JournalScholar (talk) 02:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC) 2. Without full context it can be falsely assumed that this paper was published as having passed peer-review in defiance of the reviewers (this is the false impression I got before I read the sources and researched this fully). This is not a NPOV representation of this event. This paper after failing peer-reviewed was published as a viewpoint which are not considered peer-reviewed in E&E and published for debate at the discretion of the editor, "Hence his paper could not be published as peer reviewed, but as a viewpoint." - Boehmer-Christiansen, http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com/2011/02/peer-review-at-e.html - "Regular issues include submitted and invited papers that are rigorously peer reviewed, as well as shorter personal viewpoints and technical communications that are not peer reviewed and often give controversial voices a platform." - http://www.multi-science.co.uk/ee-mission.htm - http://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate_Committees?url=climate_ctte/submissions/sub573.pdf - Nomo is arguing against inclusion of this material. This additional information provides full context to this event for a NPOV. --JournalScholar (talk) 02:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Proposed Closure Looking at this page and at User talk:JournalScholar, I have come to the conclusion that this is not the right place for this to be resolved. In my opinion, the issues with JournalScholar's behavior should be taken to Does anyone have any objections to this proposed plan of action? --Guy Macon (talk) 20:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
BLP Edit and Removal of Phrase without DRN resolution being reached http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sonja_Boehmer-Christiansen&diff=501068659&oldid=501035766 Nomoskedasticity edited the BLP without resolution here and removed this phrase claiming DRN resolution, "This paper is titled, Earth's Heat Source - The Sun and published as a viewpoint article. According to the publisher, viewpoint articles are not peer-reviewed in Energy & Environment." --JournalScholar (talk) 22:20, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
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John Derbyshire
![]() | Stale or resolved, no indication of further interest after inquiry by Steven Zhang. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
An editor, the User:Readin, is objecting to my use of the word "claim" in my changes to the article, and variants thereof in other tenses, as part of a clean-up of some sort, unreasonably in my view, and is offering alternatives, at his talk page, if not other places, that can only be described as, if used, giving or rendering a pro-Derbyshire "Fanpov" slant or point-of-view. From his talk page, at (User talk:Readin), his understanding of the English language does appear to be a little strange. -- KC9TV 19:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Users involved
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
Indeed there is, unsuccessfully.
Possible language help, possibly from native speakers of both English and Chinese, and general outside input. -- KC9TV 19:39, 6 July 2012 (UTC) John Derbyshire discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I'll copy and paste the main section (about John Derbyshire's personal life) that I was questioning.
The tone of the writing is that everything John Derbyshire says is dubious - even statements about how many children he has. I'm suggesting that the wording be more neutral. For example, instead of "Derbyshire appears to be married to one Lynette, or Lynette Rose, née Qi (齐红玫; Qi Hongmei), apparently a naturalized former citizen of the People's Republic of China, [25] and he claims to have two children between them, a daughter and a son.", we could write "Derbyshire has written that he is married to one Lynette, or Lynette Rose, née Qi (齐红玫; Qi Hongmei), a naturalized former citizen of the People's Republic of China, [25] and that they have two children between them, a daughter and a son." Instead of "He claims to be currently undergoing treatment for chronic lymphocytic leukemia.[26]", it could say "He wrote in ... that he is currently undergoing treatment for chronic lymphocytic leukemia." We should use wording that simply reports what he said or wrote and let the user decide rather than using loaded words that seem chosen to caste doubt on the statements. Slightly off-topic, but since KC9TV has mentioned it, there does appear to be a language issue. At first I just wondered if KC9TV wasn't reading my statements carefully and therefore misunderstanding some of them. However I noticed that his talk page has an "en-0" box, and that he seems to have completely misunderstood one of the questions asked as part of the dispute resolution: "Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?" "Indeed there is, unsuccessfully." I'm not sure how to deal with this since I'm not sure what precisely the difficulty is. As for "Chinese", he seems to be under the wrong impression that I'm currently living in Taiwan and am therefor unqualified to comment on subtleties of English. That should not be considerd an issue because English is my first, native, and mother language and I live in America where English continues to be my primary language of communication. Readin (talk) 20:06, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
This thread looks like it's not been looked at for some time...does this issue still need to be looked into? Steven Zhang Get involved in DR! 14:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
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Dispute over map of india and pakistan in article death of osama bin laden
![]() | I'm closing this as it is malformed and there has been no discussion on the talk page. I've also left a message on the filing editor's talk page. — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 23:21, 13 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Filed by Jagmeet612 on 19:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC).
Dispute overview
the map in the article death osama bin laden shows a part of the map under pakistani terretory but it is claimed by both india and pakistan. and by showing it under pakistani terretory ascertain it as a pakistani territory,which disputes the neutrality of wikipedia acording to standards. it is requested to rectify the mistake at the earliest . Users involved
Not yet.
Resolving the dispute
it can be helped by properly checking the map from verifiable sources Jagmeet612 (talk) 19:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Dispute over map of india and pakistan in article death of osama bin laden discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
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Kilometres per hour
![]() | Closed by mutual agreement of the parties to the dispute Guy Macon (talk) 16:32, 15 July 2012 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Dispute overview
User:Martinvl and myself are having trouble agreeing on a suitable wording for a phrase in a sentence explaining the relationship between "km/h" and "kilometres per hour", in the section called "Use of kph", about alternative abbreviations in use, in the Kilometres per hour article. I favour something like: "a European Union directive requires the use of "km/h" as the abbreviation (or "symbol" as the SI define it) for kilometres per hour in official documents in all its member states". Martinvl insists on: "EU directives require the use of "km/h" in official documents in all member states". The disagreement is over the use of the word "abbreviation", which I would like to see used to clarify the description of Martinvl argues that it would be original research (WP:OR) to include that word as two international bodies, the European Union (EU) and the International System of Units (SI), use the word "symbol" exclusively when describing that relationship in their documents. I argue that "abbreviation" is a usual term for that relationship in a general readership English-language-only article - where "km/h" is clearly an abbreviation of "kilometres per hour" ("/" is often used in place of "per"). My wording also mentions the fact that the SI call it a "symbol". I understand that the international bodies use the word "symbol" because they also use "km/h" to stand for "kilometres per hour" in languages where one or more of the constituent letters ("k", "m" and "h") may not appear in the initial letters of the phrase in those languages. I do not agree that English Wikipedia is obliged to disregard normal English usage practices and word meanings and has to necessarily comply with the conventions of these outside bodies. The dispute has descended into a continuous cycle of modification and reversion. Martinvl tried to get me banned by reporting me for "edit warring", see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. An administrator intervened and has now locked the article. Users involved
I believe Martinvl is being rather intransigent over this. I produced a list of 7 different references which supported the fact that "km/h" is an abbreviation, which Martinvl dismissed and continued to claim it to be WP:OR.
Yes.
Resolving the dispute
We have discussed it at length on the article talk page at: Talk:Kilometres per hour#EU directive 2 and Talk:Kilometres per hour#EU Directive - 3 July 2012.
I would like some direction as how we can overcome this impasse as I believe that the article content will be made much clearer, and will be more understandable to an average English language reader. Ornaith (talk) 19:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC) Kilometres per hour discussionDiscussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.
I am a dispote resolution volunteer here at DRN. I would suggest first reading Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Units of measurement Then reading the past discussions at and if that does not resolve the issue, asking the above question on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers --Guy Macon (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi Guy. Thanks for taking the time to look at this. However, and with all due respect, the reading suggestions you have offered appear to be addressing a different issue to the one presented here. This isn't a dispute about the presentation of units in articles or about what abbreviation/symbol should be used when referring to kilometres per hour. This is a dispute about whether we are allowed to use the English language word "abbreviation" when describing the use of "km/h" in place of the full phrase "kilometres per hour", or whether that would be rightly seen as original research. Ornaith (talk) 22:25, 6 July 2012 (UTC)
I see a problem with what both of you are saying. Martinvl writes "Abbreviation is a shorthand for a word or an phrase which is formed from letters found in the phrase - eg 'VAT" for "Value Added Tax' ". No it isn't. VAT is an acronym, not an abbreviation. Ornaith writes: "This is a dispute about whether we are allowed to use the English language word 'abbreviation' when describing the use of "km/h" in place of the full phrase "kilometres per hour". The term "km/h" is not an abbreviation. It is an initialism, like "EU". Note: I am assuming that folks in the EU say VAT as one word instead of spelling it out and that they spell out EU instead of pronouncing it as one-syllable word. BTW, Contraction is the fourth member of the quartet of commonly confused words. OK, once we decide to use the correct word, we get back to the question of "...as the initialism (or "symbol" as the SI defines it) for..." Does the SI actually make that definition? If so, cite it and we are done. If it doesn't, (which I strongly suspect from the fact that both of you got the wrong word) we should not say that it does. That being said, there are two possible replacements for "...EU directives require the use of "km/h"..." that do not have the "SI never made that definition" problem. They are: "A European Union directive requires the use of "km/h" as the initialism for kilometres per hour..." "A European Union directive requires the use of "km/h" as the symbol for kilometres per hour..." Or we could just not decide and write "A European Union directive requires the use of "km/h" for kilometres per hour..." Of the above, in my opinion "Symbol" is preferred, because that's the word used in the directive. "Initialism" would not be considered to be WP:OR as long as we don't pretend that someone made a definition that they didn't make - it is the proper use of that word. "Abbreviation" would be using the wrong word. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
The way it works is this; let's say you have a content dispute with "Silent Sam" (I want to keep this theoretical). The article starts in a stable state - it has been pretty much unchanged for a while. You make edit X, which you believe improves the article, making sure to add a very polite, neutral, and descriptive edit summary. Sam reverts, with or without an edit summary. You see that the B and the R of BRD has happened, so you go to the article talk page and ask why your edit was reverted, along with a brief description of why you think it would be an improvement. That's the D, which opens the door to the next round of BRD. If there was a reason for the revert given in the edit summary, address that. The key here is to be cool, factual, and super-polite no matter what Sam does. If Sam refuses to discuss it, (Give him at least three days -- sometimes editors get busy) put your change back in with a comment like "undoing undiscussed revert; see discussion on talk page." if he reverts again and still refuses to discuss, read the following discussion... ...to see what some other editor's opinion are on this and then bring it up at WP:ANEW. The key here is that anyone checking the history will see you being unfailingly polite, always ready to discuss, and willing to wait a few days without your change being made to the article, while they will see Sam edit warring and refusing to discuss. Once Sam get warned, then you put your change back in. If he reverts again, attempt to discuss again and go back to WP:ANEW. No need to wait a few days this time. Eventually Sam gets indefinitely blocked and your edit stays in. The key is that by being patient, following the proper procedures, and making sure your own behavior is spotless, you win. Getting back to the case at hand, I am not saying that NebY is Silent Sam. Many editors get frustrated and say they won't discuss things anymore. Just ignore that and continue on assuming that they will have good-faith discussions no matter what they said. If they really won't discuss but still revert, see above. The ideal situation is for NebY to also be patient, follow the proper procedures, and make sure his own behavior is spotless. If you still can't resolve the issue, that's what DRN is for. Do it that way and you both win. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:51, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
May I suggest the following revision:
Suitable references will be provided, including a link to the text to the EU directive and a link to Chapter 5.1 of the SI brochure (which deals with symbols). BTW, the phrase "economic, public health, public safety or administrative purposes” is taken straight from Article 2 of the EU directive. I described how to access these documents earlier in this thread. Does this explain the background to my earlier objections? (BTW, I used the symbol "«" and "»" to delimit the proposal in order to remove ambiguity surrounding the use of double and single apostrophes. Martinvl (talk) 22:02, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
--- The protecting admin does not believe that unprotection is justified. See User talk:EdJohnston#Kilometres per hour I think he probably made the right call. It looks like you folks are going to have to come to an agreement as well as promising not to misbehave. It's your decision to make, but agreeing to go back to the article talk page and demonstrating a spirit of cooperation there might be worth considering. You can always open up a new DRN case later if you need to. Your call. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:56, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl (good, you haven't withdrawn after all!), re your newly suggested revision. We need to make it clear that it is only official EU documents that are implicated. So I would re-prase something like: 'For certain official publications in EU countries, the EU directive 80/181/EEC recognise only the SI symbol "km/h" as a shortened form of "kilometres per hour", and does not allow any other abbreviations.' Assuming you can find a secondary source to support that, and not your personal interpretation of a primary source such as the EU directive itself or the SI brochure. Ornaith (talk) 19:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your personal appraisal of the small sample of the references confirming km/h as an abbreviation that I supplied. They are reliable sources, and there are many, amny more too, and they support the assertion that km/h IS an abreviation. Ornaith (talk) 20:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
@Martinvl, re your story about the rapping of knuckles. Which edit were you referring to? Perhaps if your edit summaries were more accurate and less misleading, you wouldn't have that problem. Ornaith (talk) 20:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @NebY, re your alternative wording. I like that idea and would go with it so long as it also made it clear that it only applied to official docs from EU countries. We need to keep the paragraph balanced, and be careful not to give a false impression of the scope of the EU official requirement. Ornaith (talk) 20:46, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your Wiki mission statement addition. Educate yes, not just sticking exclusively to the EU line though. We need to remember WP:NPOV too. EU directives apply only to a limited scope of publications. They may insist on the word "symbol" within that scope, but outside of that scope the word "abbreviation" is more normal. We would be neutral if we say they "use the SI symbol km/h as an abbreviation for kilometres per hour" and cover their line too. Now that would be better, from an educational point of view. We do not want readers mislead into believing that they have to comply with the narrow EU view on this when they don't. Ornaith (talk) 20:55, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @Guy, re consensus point. Does "consensus" mean "majority" of those voicing an opinion, regardless of Wikipedia policies (I've been involved in another discussion elsewhere where that seemed to be the case)? Ornaith (talk) 21:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC) @Garamond, re your dictionary points. Exactly, you would "learn more" if we described the distinction between the two domains. The EU domain is just one part of the complex story, as is the "common usage" (as you put it) domain. We shouldn't be suggesting it is compulsory to use "km/h" or that it is incorrect to use "kph", but we could point out the EU view for their official documents, their "house style" if you like. Ornaith (talk) 21:08, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
@Guy, re going back to the article talk page. Do you have any arbitration role in this? What is your opinion of how best to tackle this point and keep it neutral, covering all "domains" as Garamond exquisitely put it, and not giving undue weight or attention to the parocial requirements of the EU? Ornaith (talk) 21:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC) The section Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Quotations states "To ensure accuracy, the text of quoted material is best taken from (and cited to) the original source being quoted". Since this is a Wikipedia content guideline it should be followed unless there is good reason to the contrary. In the case in question, the word "symbol" is a direct quotation from the source text, the word "abbreviation" is not. I therefore see no reason to adopt Ornaith's proposal, especially when the current text follows this guideline to the letter. (The changes that I proposed earlier also follow the guideline to the letter). Martinvl (talk) 21:27, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Re: "Do you have any arbitration role in this?", I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. As i said before, this should be settled be WP:CONSENSUS. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
@Guy, this is getting really difficult to navigate through, but did you see my question to you, up there somewhere, about the meaning of "consensus"? Ornaith (talk) 15:43, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
@Guy, re your 3 questions:
Ornaith (talk) 16:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your "recognition of points" addition. First the points you asked me about:
Now some questions for you:
Ornaith (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your "the big picture" addition. Comments on your responses, in order:
Ornaith (talk) 16:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl,
Ornaith (talk) 16:50, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The question asked is: "Does 'consensus' mean 'majority' of those voicing an opinion, regardless of Wikipedia policies (I've been involved in another discussion elsewhere where that seemed to be the case)?" --Ornaith First, I am assuming that we have all read WP:CONSENSUS. If anyone has not, do that now. Wikipedia policies and guidelines always take priority over the consensus on an article talk page, but it is really important to understand why; those policies and guidelines came from the consensus of a much larger group of editors with far more experience. So if, for example, ten editors on a local talk page all agree that it is OK to violate, say WP:BLP, the actual consensus is ten who say the violation is OK and a couple of thousand who say it is not. (I am picking WP:BLP to talk about specifically because it does not apply to this dispute). So the reality is not that policy trumps consensus, but rather the reality is "you are counting wrong." The net effect is that same, so it isn't wrong to say that policy trumps consensus, but it helps a lot to understand what is really going on. That being said, the basic principle I just described is often misunderstood by editors who think that WP:BLP (or whatever policy we are talking about) requires them to get their way in a content dispute. Maybe WP:BLP supports them, and maybe they just think it does. In other words, "WP:BLP!!!" is not a magic word that makes all opposition go away and allows the person using the magic spell to get what he wants while ignoring consensus. So, what do you do if you are convinced that WP:BLP requires you to get your way in a content dispute? First, be suspicious of your own thinking. In particular study our page on confirmation bias. Do you keep finding again and again that Wikipedia's policies support your positions and almost never find that they don't? Are you having a hard time convincing others that Wikipedia's policies support your position? One other editor who does not agree might be wrong. Five other editors on the article talk page and two uninvolved editors at DRN all disagreeing with your interpretation of a policy probably means that it is you who are wrong. So, is there a method to guard against getting policies wrong? Yes. There is. As soon as anyone disagrees with you about the interpretation of any Wikipedia policy or guideline, quote the exact wording that you believe supports your position and ask them to quote the exact wording that they believe supports their position. That often does it. If you still disagree, get the advice of someone with more experience. For more information, including the answer to your "vote" question, please see:
We really need to look at the section as a whole. Here is a proposed text: Use of kph and km/h ![]() Although "kph" and "km/h" are often used interchangably as a shorthand for "kilometres per hour", there is a difference between the two notations:
The EU directive 80/181/EEC, which catalogues the use and representation of units of measure used for "economic, public health, public safety or administrative purposes"[ref] requires "km/h" be used as the symbol for "kilometres per hour". These "purposes" in this direcitve include but are not limited to primary and secondary legislation, court orders etc.[ref]. In addition, EU directive 75/443/EEC explicitly states that "km/h" shall appear on speedometers of motor vehicles.[ref]. Examples of text that does not include all three letters "k", "m" and "h" in the native language of the state concerned, but where the EU directive applies include Dutch: "kilometer per uur" ("hour" is spelt "uur"), Portuguese: "quilómetro por hora" ("kilometre" is spelt "quilómetro") and Greek: "χιλιόμετρα ανά ώρα" (a different script).[ref]. Similarly, US law requires the use of either "km/h" or "KM/H", but not "KPH" on speedometers.[ref] Martinvl (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC) @Guy, re your latest "consensus" post. You make it sound so straightforward and logigal! Your discussion of policy v. consensus is excellent. In the other discussion that I was involved in though, it seemed that local consensus steam-rollered policy in that case. The motion to enforce a policy was defeated because there was no local consensus to do so. At least that was my view of the outcome! Ornaith (talk) 11:57, 10 July 2012 (UTC) @Garamond, re your "larger article" point. Remembering that English Wikipedia articles should be written primarily in standard "common use" English, and not in EU-speak or even SI-speak, we could have a "The use of abbreviations" section. This section could have comment on the use of "km/h" and "kph" and could describe the SI view and their classification of the abbreviation as a symbol, and their reasoning. We could also mention that the EU have written the SI specification into their directives and whatever the US and others do about it. I don't think we need to labour it too much though. Ornaith (talk) 12:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl. re your addition covering my questions, SA, etc. You refused to answer a straightforward question about the English language - labelling it a "loaded". What do you think was the "controversial or unjustified assumption" in it (see Loaded question)? Do you accept that "km/h" is an abbreviation in English? You misrepresented another question, I asked if you accepted that there are publication in which word usage is not regulated. You equated it to the use of "improper" language and the "f-word"! Why not give a straightforward answer? Do you accept that English word usage is not generally regulated, even in the EU? Your way of thinking about symbols is not relevent here, I don't think anyone denies that, a language independent "symbol" is a good idea, or that the SI or EU have got it wrong. The discussion here is about the wider issue of "common use" English, and whether English Wikipedia should use standard English or EU-speak as the language for its articles. Ornaith (talk) 13:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your "the obvious" remark. Did you read the "Dispute overview" section at the top of this section? You will see your concern answered there. Ornaith (talk) 13:30, 10 July 2012 (UTC) @Martinvl, re your proposed replacement section. It is much too EU-centric, it is not from a neutral point of view and gives undue weight (see Argument from authority) to the "official" definition, it contains original research around the scope and impact of the EU directive (btw, did you find that quote about the use on speedometers that I asked for yet?). Ornaith (talk) 13:46, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
@Ornaith, Please stop playing silly games. I have put forward a proposed rewording of the entire section which I think addresses all concerns. Please either indicate exactly what you would like to change or add, alternatively write out what you would like to see. Remember, if we can't agree, the present text stays. Martinvl (talk) 15:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Kilometres per hour discussion: RestartI am going to step in here and attempt to resolve this dispute. To do that, I am going to set some ground rules (for this section only) and I am going to move any comments that do not follow the new ground rules to another section. In this section I am going to try to focus us all on reaching a solution. First, no more trying to convince each other. We have already established that this is not working (but of course you can keep trying, just not here.) Second, no offering of compromises, We have also established that that isn't working. Third, no saying anything about any other editor. Don't talk about what they did, don't talk about what their position is. Don't say anything about anybody. You are allowed to talk about article content but I am limiting you to a simple statement: "I think the article should say X." Don't say why, don't say that Y and Z would also be acceptable, don't comment on the other editor's statement. Fourth, I will be asking specific questions, and I expect answers. Specific answers to the actual questions asked, not a springboard to talking about something else. Answering questions supersedes all the other ground rules, so you can comment on one of the forbidden topics if I ask you about it. The obvious question someone would ask is this: "OK tough guy; what gives you the authority to do this and how do you plan on enforcing it?" The answer is...I got nothing. I have no authority at all. I can't force anyone to do anything. All I can do is to try to persuade you, and you are free to ignore me. The only consequence will be that everyone will see that I tried to resolve the dispute with some bold measures, and you refused to cooperate. Which you had every right to do. Ready to start? OK, here are my first two questions: Does anybody want to declare that they have no intent of cooperating with me on this? (Remember, you are completely free to do that.) There are two names listed under "Users involved", but I see that four people besides me have participated in this discussion. Do we have a two-to-one split on this issue? Does anyone know about anyone else who may be interested or possibly even be lurking? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:31, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
[Deleted my own comment: completely wrong, and based upon my somehow not being able to count. (Note to self; next time, smoke crack after editing Wikipedia...)]
Proposed "TO" request wording: Talk:Kilometres per hour#EU Directive - 3 July 2012 followed by Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Kilometres per hour. Disagreement about whether a description of the use of "km/h" in EU directives contravenes WP:OR if "km/h" is introduced as an "abbreviation" of "kilometres per hour", whilst also noting that the SI use the term "symbol" for it. Ornaith (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
ROUGH CONSENSUS CHECK The page should read: Disputed sentence:
Support: Oppose: Neutral: The page should read: Disputed sentence: The abbreviations "kph" and "km/h" are generally used to indicate "kilometres per hour". EU directives mandate that just "km/h", also the official SI symbol in all languages, be used in official EU documents. Optional paragraph showing disputed sentence in context: TBD Support: Oppose: Neutral: The page should read: km/h is one of several abbreviations for and one of two standard symbols of the unit of speed "kilometers per hour". Optional paragraph showing disputed sentence in context: TBD Support: Oppose: Neutral: Notes: Names are listed in alphabetical order. Participation is purely optional. Our goal is to reach a consensus, so if you can bring yourself to take your name off an entry that has little support and add it to one that has more support, that would help. However, it has to be real; it does nobody any good agreeing to X here and then insisting on Y when later editing the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC) @Guy, can we have a section with the one disputed sentence listed too please, to see what we are talking about? Ornaith (talk) 15:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
EXTENDED COMMENTS You may put whatever material you wish here in order to fully present any material that you feel supports the above. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:23, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
@Guy, the Kilometres per hour article is unlocked again now, and I notice that Martinvl has already introduced part of his proposal from above (including his controversial opinion that "km/h" is not an abbreviation) into it. I consider that to be an inflammatory and extraordinarily bad-faith move, as well as disrespectful to yourself given your efforts here to resolve this dispute amicably. Ornaith (talk) 06:20, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Proposed compromise from previously uninvolved editorHey guys, I was browsing and I saw this. I think the idea of not using "symbol," "abbreviation," or "initialism" is a good one, but that the way it was presented was not ideal. My proposed compromise is:
I think "represent" is a nice, neutral term that means all the things you guys have suggested, thus working out all the problems. Opinions? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 20:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC) Support I don't like this and neither will anyone else, and that's why I think it is a pretty decent compromise. GaramondLethe 03:31, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Support Not my favorite way to build that sentence, but it's OK. It might be useful to have a paragraph (not in the lead) -- Is km/h a symbol, abbreviation, or initialism? -- to forestall further eruptions (I know, I'm an optimist about such good intentions.) A sentence or two about each of those labels for the text string, so that a reader could both understand this controversy and that there was no need for Wikipedia to conform to any of those positions might be helpful. Perhaps as a long secret comment on the page, so that editors would find it when they went to restart this squabble. htom (talk) 04:49, 13 July 2012 (UTC) @Guy, should we add this suggested wording as an alternative in the table above as we seem to have two different votes in progress now? Ornaith (talk) 06:11, 13 July 2012 (UTC) Support Leaves the worms in the can so that Kilometres per hour doesn't require a long exposition that would be just as appropriate or excessive in any similar article. NebY (talk) 07:53, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
WHY NO RESPONSE???? I put up a section to gauge consensus, and got only a single vote. several of you added your preferred wording but didn't even bother voting in support of it. Any suggestions as to why this is and what I am doing wrong? --Guy Macon (talk) 09:19, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Re: "if two editors in dispute tell you they're disputing over a particular sentence, I could see where you might be inclined to believe them. That just happened to be the wrong choice here." and "We have allowed too many issues to clutter up the discussion and we a choking by taking too big a mouthful." There are a couple of ways we can go here. It is perfectly OK to decide to abandon a DRN case, ask for it to be closed, and immediately open up a new one on the same topic in the hope that the same mistakes won't be made. You could even ask for another dispute resolution volunteer (I really would not have any problem if the general feeling is that someone else is a better fit for this). It It also OK to ask for the case to be closed so you can go back to the article talk page and try to work it out, possibly with a RFC on the article talk page. Or you could try to work it out here trying another approach. I am here to try to help you to resolve this dispute. Clearly my idea for gauging a rough consensus was not acceptable to most of you. It would have been nice to know who supports what, but I can't force you folks to participate. So please tell me what you will be willing to work together on. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:07, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
I think events have overtaken this dispute, the discussion has broadened to a scope much wider than the original question about the legitimacy of the use of the word "abbreviation", so does belong elsewhere. I was hoping for a more definite conclusion (that "abbreviation" is NOT WP:OR preferably) but am happy to close the discussion here, knowing I could bring it back if necessary. Thanks Guy for your patient attempts to resolve this. Ornaith (talk) 09:26, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
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