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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 30 September 2019 [1].


Nominator(s): EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the British 23rd (Northumbrian) Division, which was raised during the Second World War. This was a second-line formation that was sent to France, during 1940, to provide unskilled labour for rear-area duties and it was promised that they would not to see combat. Once the Germans broke through the Ardennes and crossed the Meuse, the unprepared division was thrown onto the frontline and subsequently mauled. Evacuated at Dunkirk, it returned to the UK where it was broken up as part of a restructuring of the British Army. The article has been edited by the GOCE, and passed its GA and A-Class reviews.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

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I reviewed this in detail at Milhist ACR, and have little to add:

Erm. Shouldn't that be either 'under the constant threat of the Luftwaffe' or 'under a constant threat from the Luftwaffe'?
Much better... Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:29, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:59, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few follow-up comments to address. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:14, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All good now, supporting. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Gog the Mild

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Placeholder. Give me a ping once you have actioned PM's comments. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:41, 17 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I assessed this at ACR. Quite a bit has been done to the article since then. All of which has improved it. All I have is the trivia below.

A splendid article. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:15, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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  • Spotchecks not done
  • Battistelli ISBN seems to correspond to a different edition
    Should be addressed nowEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Collier has the origyear and year reversed
    addressedEnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • How does the Jones source meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
    Briefly, for the moment, it is a completed doctoral thesis, which can be used. It has not been used as a primary source, it largely been used for the author's analysis in a largely neglected area.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Is there any indication this analysis has entered mainstream academic discourse? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:55, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    From what I can tell, at present no secondary source is quoting Jones. His commentary on the state of the territorial training level is on par with other sources, just more specific to the topic at hand; i.e. French (2001) talks about this in more general terms, and Smalley (2015) talks about this with specific regards to the 12th Division. Numerous sources discuss the BEF manpower shortage in regards to engineers and pioneers etc. Jones - so far - appears to be the only one who outright states the arrival of the three divisions did little to rectify the situation. His is an analysis of a primary source, which I cannot locate other sources discussing or quoting. The issue is one that most other sources glance over.
    With that said, your thoughts? Removal of extensive quoting, or removal of all material from this source?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Unfortunately, "contains analysis not found elsewhere" is not a synonym for "reliable source". I'd suggest minimizing the extent to which this source is relied upon. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:53, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I have commented out the quote from Jones, and left a note that it can be reinserted at a latter date once it meets WP:RS. I have also made a few edits to reduce the reliance on the source. Do you believe further efforts need to be made at present?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nikkimaria: Hey, just following up on this, do you feel like more material needs to be removed or will this pass mustard? :) EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 00:01, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5

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That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:36, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your review, I have made the changes you have suggested. I have also left a comment above, about the first and second line changes.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:22, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator notes

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Image review? --Laser brain (talk) 13:16, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All images seem well placed and ALT text seems OK to me. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:03, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: and @Laser brain:: Just trying to stay on top of this. The original website links are long dead. Each commons page though, has archive links to the original source. Are these suitable, or should the maps be removed from the article? Other than that, are there any other issues that need to be addressed? Regards EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 21:48, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That the links are archived isn't really a problem, but the fact that the links point directly to the file is. One can't verify a license that way. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 08:45, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ah! Makes perfect sense now, I have commented out as I am not familiar enough with how the way back machine works to get additional information on the maps in order to support the license.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:20, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, with that said. I did some playing around and was able to access the following parts of the archive website. At this point, it would be a case of advise from you guys on how to proceed:
Atlas main page
European list of maps
Atlas source page (If I am not mistaken, the sources are all from the "West Point" series.)EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:29, 15 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: and @Laser brain:: Just another follow-up, to avoid this review stagnating and no promotion being made ;) Can you advise on how to proceed from here? With the above links, are the maps okay to use? Do we insert these links onto the commons pages? Or should the maps just be commented out? Regards EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:24, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am not so sure myself, either; requesting a second opinion from @Nikkimaria: Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:33, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This page claims that both maps are the product of either USMA or USDPA, meaning the licensing is appropriate. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:02, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Jo-Jo Eumerus: and @Nikkimaria:, thank you Nikkimaria for the links and comment on licensing. I have tweaked the Commons page to link to archive pages for the original map and atlas source page, and also included the current active links (which I failed to find when previously looking!). I hope this resolves this issue?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 17:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.