Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dan Bain/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Dan Bain[edit]

Dan Bain (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 18:24, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The sixth in my long-term project to have the initial 12 Hockey Hall of Fame inductees brought to FA, Dan Bain is a little different than previous efforts. Active during the 1890's, there is not much literature about his life, so this article is one the shorter side. However that shouldn't be an issue, as it is a concise and detailed article, covering everything available about him. Also, to clarify, I do have the consent of Resolute to initiate this nomination, as he is the primary editor of the article. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:24, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, and I will try to add what I can to the nomination. Cheers! Resolute 00:41, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I have not read through this article fully yet, but there are problems immediately apparent. In addition, it does not seem that the article has been substantially worked on since November 2010, which does not suggest a last push to ensure FA standards before nominating. I am not opposing yet, but I think a lot of work is required quite quickly here. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Apart from the first sentence, and one other which begins "Bain", every sentence in the lead starts "He".
  • Two of the three sentences in "Early life" begin "His".
  • Throughout the whole article, the majority of sentences begin "He", "Bain", "The", or with the occasional noun or pronoun. This is a long way short of the standards of prose required at FA.
  • "He led the Victorias to a successful defence against the Toronto Wellingtons in January 1902 before the team lost the Cup to the Montreal Hockey Club in March of that same year. He retired from hockey following the loss.": This is unreferenced.
  • Of the two team photographs from the Hockey Hall of Fame site, how do we know they were published before 1923? Sarastro1 (talk) 11:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Give me a day or so on this one. If Kaiser matias doesn't take care of it, I'll try to tomorrow. Resolute 00:13, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I should be able to take care of this by this time tomorrow. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:27, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. I did a major copyedit of the article, taking care to modify most of the wording and removing several "he/his/etc." As for the images, they were published in contemporary newspapers and commemorative posters celebrating the win. I've looked for online archives of them, but they are unavailable so far as I can tell. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given these images would have fallen into the public domain in Canada no later than 1947 and 1952 respectively, I think it more likely they never saw publication in the United States until after those dates than they would have been published south of the border before 1923. How that all affects things, I cannot say. Resolute 00:51, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If true (that there was no publication in the US before 30 days), and my knowledge of ocpyright isn't completely off, that would mean Template:PD-URAA. What was the copyright law in Canada in 1996, when the URAA was implemented? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • For photographs it was year of creation +50. A 1999 amendment to Canada's copyright act changed that to creator's life +50, which is why commons:Template:PD-Canada states any image created prior to January 1, 1949 is PD. These images had been public domain in Canada for about a half-century when URAA came into effect. 03:33, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Then the proper US copyright template would be PD-URAA. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Crisco 1492

  • The flood of "He"'s is not only in the lead. You've got 24 sentences starting with "he", in a 1150-word article. There's probably fewer than fifty sentences here! This suggests a good copyedit is needed.
  • That's down to 11, but I think you could trim the number a bit further (Personal life is still replete with hes) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:14, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • shooting - Link, if you have everything else linked?
  • a research facility at the University of Manitoba. - on campus or belonging to? (at/of)
  • Image copyright, in particular, needs to be dealt with. File:DanBain1900.jpg should say on the image page that it's cropped from a poster. Otherwise, if that link goes dead we don't have a way to verify earlier publication.
  • More comments once you've addressed Sarastro's. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:37, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed all these concerns as well. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, it's getting better so I've struck my oppose. I'll try and give a more detailed review later today (my time) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:14, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overlinking: Scottish . Possibly Ontario, Manitoba, Quebec
  • At the age of 17 - Four years later (you just had a sentence which says "At the age of...")
  • the Stanley Cup, the national championship of Canada, - Isn't the cup the prize?
  • Bain quickly became a star centre and leader for the Victorias; during a challenge for the Stanley Cup, the national championship of Canada, against the Montreal Victorias on February 14, 1896, Bain scored the first goal of the game, a 2–0 victory for Winnipeg that gave them the Cup. - Huge sentence, needs to be split
  • and the Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame - year?
  • This feels quite light on subject matter, and it's not clear from the article whether he was a professional or an amateur (assuming such a distinction meant something in those days). It sounds as if he was a successful businessman while doing so many different sports. Is there any more information out there? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:48, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed the other comments here. Regarding the Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame, they have no dates listed for induction. Hopefully they update their site to show this, but for now its got nothing. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Rejectwater (talk) 11:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Rejectwater
  • External links:
  • Dan Bain's biography at Legends of Hockey - this isn't actually a link to his biography, it's a link to a cover page that itself has a link to his biography. This is generated by a template, I know, but it is misleading.
  • Dan Bain's biography at Canadian Sports Hall of Fame - dead link.
  • Dan Bain's biography at Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame - links to a search page where the user has to select which category of players to look at, then if they choose wisely they get a list of names to dig through.
  • "Active during the 1890's, there is not much literature about his life, so this article is one the shorter side." I think it is a fantastic article in it's current form, but how do we know there isn't more information available? I'm not asking you to prove a negative, this is a question. How do you go about finding information about such a person and how do you know you have exhausted all available avenues? Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not including media guides, I have a personal library of about 20 hockey books, most of which relate to history, and as you might expect, the Calgary Public Library has a large number of books related to the same. Google news search (which didn't turn up much, unfortunately), the Hockey Hall of Fame website, and a great deal of creative searches that led, quite fortuitiously, to that Ducks Unlimited piece. Unfortunately, for all of this, pre-WWI amateur era players are often thinly covered as much of the history is written about the pro era. For $10, I could possibly find a little more in the Winnipeg Free Press archives, though I expect anything truly notable from that search would have been covered in other publications. Resolute 23:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • One of the images includes the caption "The Winnipeg Victorias posing for a photo with the Stanley Cup in 1896.". I do not see the Stanley Cup in the image. The other team photo from 1901 clearly shows the Cup in the center of the photo. I cannot discern the presence of the Cup anywhere in the 1896 photo. Rejectwater (talk) 22:11, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed that. I suspect that was a a cut-paste error when those images were added. Resolute 23:01, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also removed the four ELs. They are all, with working links, used as sources in the article already. Resolute 02:39, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN3: title should use endash
  • Use a consistent date format. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:58, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Taken care of these issues. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: There are still quite a few problems, and I am beginning to lean towards opposing. Some comments, just from the lead. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:53, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "An all-around athlete, Bain competed in ice hockey, roller skating, gymnastics, figure skating, golf, cycling and shooting among other sports.": Do we need such a long list in the lead? It makes for dull reading.
Shortened it down to just hockey.
  • We now have consecutive sentences in the form "A(n) XYZ, Bain..." in the lead
Changed
  • Also in the first paragraph of the lead, there are many clauses "He/Bain was..." which makes for repetitive reading.
Modified that
  • Do we need to list all four Halls of Fame into which he was inducted in the lead? Again, a bit ponderous and slows down the opening.
While I would argue that they are each notable, and as a multi-sport athlete it would be important, I have to agree, and cut it down to naming just one by name
  • "He was also voted Canada's top athlete of the last half of the 19th century.": When, and by who?
I would really like to know myself. I'm inclined to say it was Canadian sportswriters (they named Lionel Conacher the best Canadian athlete for the first half of the 20th century), but all the sources giving Bain this distinction simply say he was voted, without saying who voted for him.
  • "He earned his fortune operating Donald H. Bain Limited": Earned his fortune? This sounds like a character in a fairy tale!
Changed the wording of it, should sound less fanciful.
  • "endures today": Seems a grand phrase for an encyclopaedia.
Added new phrasing.
  • Generally, the sentence structures being used a very repetitive: "Bain was x. He was also y. In {date], he was z." Too many "was", and we need more variety.
Went through and reworded a lot of sentences, and removed several uses of "was."
  • As the article is so short, the prose should really be top-notch as every little flaw shows up. At the moment, I think we are some way from that. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:53, 10 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I suggested above that a lot needed doing quite quickly to make this worthwhile, and nothing has been done for over a week now. Reluctantly, I am switching to oppose; the article does not seem fully ready, and no-one is doing anything! This is not set in stone, but I'd really like to see something happening now. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again, terribly sorry for the delay, should be good as of now. Addressed these comments, any other issues please let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:23, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Struck oppose based on the work done so far: my oppose was mainly because not much was happening. I'll carry on with the review in the next day or two. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few more: Nothing too bad standing out in the prose now, but can't help echoing Crisco above that this just feels a bit light. I'll try to have a last look in a day or two. There's nothing obviously wrong, I won't oppose and I may well support, but it somehow doesn't feel in-depth enough for a FA. I'll have another read. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Watch out for using "would" ("the team would lose..."). There is usually no need and it makes for clunky reading.
Fixed
  • Close repetition of "athlete" in the first two sentences of the lead.
Fixed
  • Also in the lead: "Outside of hockey..." and "Outside of sports". We should avoid using this construction twice, and I'd prefer to avoid it altogether as I find it slightly informal/unencyclopedic, but it may be an engvar thing.
Removed those
Changed the wording around. Let me know if it's better this way, or the previous way.
  • "Bain quickly became a star centre and leader for the Victorias. This was exemplified during a February 14, 1896 game": Does the source explicitly say that the match exemplified those qualities? Just checking.
In short, yes. The recount of his play during the game is one of the only clear accounts of Bain's career, and gives the real only context of how good he was.
  • Anything about how he learned hockey? Or when he first played each sport?
If only. I could get into speculation on it, but that's not what we are here for.
  • "While the Victorias defended their title in a series against the Toronto Wellingtons in January 1902, Bain did not play in the series.": Does not sound right. Perhaps "When" works better than "while" here.
Fixed
Sarastro1 (talk) 20:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are a few places where the refs are in the wrong order (i.e. not in ascending order when used together at the end of a sentence).
Think I caught all of these. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • "with whom he played from 1894 until 1902". Either "with" or "for" needs to go for the sentence to work.
  • Sporting career: "The first game in 1949 when he was elected a member...". "game" → "came".
  • Do we know when Bain was inducted into the Manitoba Hockey Hall of Fame?
As noted above, the MHHOF site has not been updated in some time, and an archive search turned up nothing in newspapers.
  • Personal life: World War II is such a well-known item that I don't believe a link is needed for it. Better to save the links for the teams and other things that readers will want to research while looking at this. Giants2008 (Talk) 02:14, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Addressed all these. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that, but feel that it has little bearing on Bain himself. The theft happened several years after he died, and is little more than a footnote in a different story altogether. That said, if the consensus is to add it, I won't oppose that.
I was not aware the Star had an online archive. Will definitely go through this and see if there's anything. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – I have a number of comments. I think there are a few points that could do with clarification; detailed footnotes would work well.

  • "Bain's first championship came in 1887 when he captured the Manitoba roller skating championship at the age of 13 by winning the three-mile race." - close repetition of 'championship' another source [2] says this was the start of his "athletic" career. Maybe an idea for rewording.
  • " he won the provincial gymnastics competition" - the provincial ? I assume the Manitoba competition?
  • could "top" lacrosse player be clarified?
  • "he made the team five minutes into his tryout." - does this mean that he was selected only five minutes into his tryout?
  • "This was exemplified during a February 14, 1896 game against the Montreal Victorias for the Stanley Cup, given to the national hockey champion in Canada, Bain scored the first goal of the game, a 2–0 victory for Winnipeg that gave them the Cup" - I really think this reads poorly. Maybe consider rewording.
  • "They were led to a feast in their honour in a parade of open sleighs as fans gathered to celebrate the championship." Maybe "They were led to a feast in their honour in a parade of open sleighs, where fans gathered to celebrate the championship." - or did the fans gather at the parade itself?
  • " a challenge to reclaim the Cup in December 1896" - a footnote explaining exactly what a challenge is in this context would be great.
  • "but Winnipeg again lost the title" - can you lose a title in a challenge series when you don't hold the cup? Or do you simply not win it?
  • "The team would lose their next challenge, against the Montreal Hockey Club, in March of that year, which marked the end of Bain's hockey career." - I'm with Sarastro1 in not being comfortable with the use of "would" in quite the way you have, "The team lost their next challenge" reads much better.
  • "Throughout his sporting career, Bain would also earn medals in lacrosse and snowshoeing. " - Redundant, and clunky again. "Outside of Hockey, Bain earned medals in lacrosse and snowshoeing." Also medals is pretty vague, at what level?
  • http://www.sportshall.ca/honoured-members/27968/donald-dan-bain-2-2/ gives much more details on the non-hockey aspects of his sporting career. Maybe try and include where possible.
  • "He was also voted as Canada's top sportsman of the last half of the 19th century" - do either of the sources say who conducted this vote? It'd be great to know.
  • "and after World War II" shouldn't this be Second World War in Canadian English (like here) and it doesn't need linking
  • On his career statistics, where are these figures sourced from? As well, an introductory sentence or two may enable you to omit the "MHL Sr." column, and instead say what exactly this is (rather than use an acronym and abbreviation)
  • Also, why do some rows in PIM have dashes, and some zero?
  • Does anywhere in the Sporting career section actually say what hockey league Bain played in?

I haven't gone through the lead yet, or given the sources a look over, I'll do so relatively soon. I'll also give it another proper read through. - Shudde talk 09:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Will go over this within the next day. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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