Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Diefenbaker/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:53, 30 January 2010 [1].

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John Diefenbaker

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/John Diefenbaker/archive1

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the criteria, after the peer review. This is an article about a man who became Prime Minister of Canada after losing five elections in a row, and who, after finally being elected to Parliament, repeatedly lost leadership races. Even when he got the leadership, no one expected him to actually lead his party to victory. When he did, in 1957, it was an upset so huge that magazines printed that his opponents had won (Canada's "Dewey Beats Truman" moment). Then he led the Tories on an election campaign a year later that resembled something between a crusade and a revival meeting, and won the largest majority in terms of percentage of seats ever. Unhappily, he couldn't live up to it, but still led a band of true believers into his 80s, making life miserable for both major parties. I'd like to thank Bzuk and Connormah for their help getting this one ready. I think Dief the Chief is well ready to enter the canon of FA article subjects.Wehwalt (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. Ucucha 16:05, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

This article was recently at GAN, why didn't you let it become a Good article first? warrior4321 04:02, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I wanted it to get a review, either GA or PR, when it was reviewed at PR, I found that sufficient. Brianboulton is not only an excellent writer, he is a fine reviewer. And GA is backed up for over a month on the political articles ...--Wehwalt (talk) 04:37, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, GA is not a necessary step prior to FAC (and not always a necessary step for experienced FA writers). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thank you Sandy. I merely wanted some feedback, and with PR and GA both a bit backed up, was hedging my bets as to which would get me there first.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:57, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Alt text done; thanks. Alt text is good (thanks), except for two things. First, a visually impaired reader will be left clueless as to what Diefenbaker looked like, despite the presence of a dozen images of Diefenbaker. Please describe his visual appearance in the alt text for the first image File:Diefmontreal.jpg: the square face, strong jaw, firm lips with frown line, short dark-and-grey hair cut short on sides but short-medium and wavy on top, etc. Keep the "penetrating stare": that's a good detail; also mention he's in suit and tie and holds a paper at waist-level. Second, for later portraits, you can assume the reader knows what Diefenbaker looks like and can simply say "Diefenbaker" without re-describing him (or using generic terms like "subject of the portrait"; just say "Diefenbaker"), except please briefly describe the differences in appearance (and in particular that hair in File:Diefenbaker3358.jpg, wow!). For more advice and examples, please see WP:ALT#Portraits. Eubulides (talk) 21:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

is this a change for the alt text rules? I thought we weren't supposed to name people.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That part of the alt text guideline has been there for six months or so. Generally speaking alt text shouldn't contain proper names, yes. But if an alt text entry describes (say) Greta Garbo's appearance in some detail, and the image's caption says that it's Garbo, then later images can just say "Garbo" (assuming the appearance is similar); this mimicks the experience of sighted readers who may not know what Garbo looked like until after they've seen the first image, and who afterwards can be expected to recognize her in later pictures. There's an example of this in WP:ALT #Proper names (look for "Garbo") and it's also briefly discussed under WP:ALT#Portraits. Eubulides (talk) 23:51, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Very well, then. Dief seemed to look more or less the same except for his (I agree, unusual) appearance in law school and the final photos post-PMShip where he has visibly aged. I'll play with it. Let me know if there's a problem, either here or better yet on my talk or the article talk page. Thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, the alt text reads very well now. I made one little tweak to remove the proper name from the first image. Eubulides (talk) 23:36, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

• Comment In notes but not refs: Diefenbaker 1976; English 1993; Smith 1953; Peden 1978. • Ling.Nut 07:00, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

All were the result of typos, and have been corrected now. Thank you.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:19, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose per criterion three. I've made corrections to most of the images (be careful of malformed templates, e.g. [2] and [3]), but have not resolved the following:
  • File:John Diefenbaker Signature.svg - Needs a verifiable source per WP:IUP (i.e. from what source was it digitalized?)
  • File:Diefenbaker3358.jpg, File:Dief1939.jpg, File:Johndiefenbaker.jpg and File:Diefcommons.jpg - All need licenses and/or information indicating copyright status in the US. {{PD-Canada-photo}} addresses only status in Canada; images must be shown to be PD in the US as well. File:Dief1939.jpg, for example, would be expected to be PD as a foreign work published between 1923 and 1977 without compliance with US formalities and is in the public domain in its source country as of 1.1.1996.
  • File:Diefportrait.jpg - This photo appears to be a derivative work of the portrait, which seems too prominent to be considered de minimis. Presumably the portrait was "prepared or published by or under the direction or control of Her Majesty or any government department"; if this is indeed the case, it should just have a supplementary crown copyright license. Эlcobbola _talk 15:17, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I have sliced File:Diefportrait.jpg, since the painting is less than 50 years old, presumably even Crown Copyright would be a problem. File:Diefenbaker3358.jpg, File:Dief1939.jpg I've added additional information to show that they were public domain in Canada in 1996. Unhappily, I don't believe the remaining two were in the public domain on 1.1.1996 because they were then subject to the fifty year rule and so I've commented them out. I am not an expert on image copyright and if you see a way of salvaging these, please let me know. The image of Diefenbaker pointing is iconic and he used it on the front cover of the first volume of his memoirs, but with so many photos of Dief out there, I really can't justify it as fair use. As for the signature, I've asked User:Connormah, who uploaded it, to put in his source.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It may be a long shot, but perhaps contacting the LAC would yield information to support PD status in the US? I'll look to see whether I can find anything for those images. Эlcobbola _talk 23:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I contacted the House of Commons regarding the painting. It was government commissioned, and copyright resides in the House of Commons. That means it will not be PD even in Canada until 2019. Oh well.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Added a new signature with a source image for the tracing. Connormah (talk) 22:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support: Another top-quality political biog from the Wehwalt stable. A surprisingly interesting and involving story about a man not so much forgotten in the UK as hardly heard of (I initially thought he was a German footballer). I said my piece at some length at the peer review, and most of my suggestions were acted on. With the source issues evidently settled, the article ticks all the FA boxes for me. Could be TFA on Canada Day (1 July I think). Brianboulton (talk) 22:58, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I had heard the name and knew he was the sole PC island in a sea of Liberal PMs, but I didn't know much about him until I saw an exhibit on him at Regina airport. Turns out to be quite a character. Yes, I am hopeful that on 1 July, as the song goes, "Dief Will Be the Chief Again", if only for 24 hours.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I meant "image" issues in the above comment; no questions about the sources. Brianboulton (talk) 09:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I've been reviewing the article at its talk page, and have received feedback on all my suggestions there. The article is comprehensive and well-written. There are numerous references (although the article relies significantly on the Smith ref, I don't think it does so overwhelmingly). I'd like to see a few more images, but unfortunately the time frame seems to be in a copyright black hole– too old to have any recent CC- or GFDL-licenced images, too young to have public domain images. (Surely the various Canadian archives have images that can be used as fair dealing.) I have no complaints about the stylistic aspects of the article. The only featured article criterion I would quibble about is length - it weighs in at just under 100kB, but I don't think it's excessive given the topic. Please note that I don't currently have access to the cited references, so I could not verify the claims made using the refs; I assumed they check out, based on the earlier peer review and comments here and on the article's talk page. Mindmatrix 17:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Many thanks for the review and for looking at it for 2 hours (!) for inconsistencies. I rely heavily on Smith because it is the only bio of Dief to be published since his death (excepting one Young Adult bio which I have but refuse to use for obvious reasons). I can get a couple more images from Library and Archives Canada, there is one of Dief, Pearson, and CCF leader Hazen Argue taken in 1959 taken by Duncan Cameron, whose photos are free use if you acknowledge the source. I also have one of the Diefenbaker School in Toronto, which is where his father taught the kids who famously became Conservative MPs (they have rebuilt the building since). I think I will probably wait until after the FAC closes to make any decisions, since we have a completed image check and there have been some delays in getting one, don't want to go back to the foot of the queue. With free use images available, I can't justify fair use ones, and unhappily had to delete the well-known one of Dief in the Commons, pointing dramatically (it is PD in Canada but not in the US, see the discussion above). I agree, the article is an appropriate length, this guy was politically active for 60 years and led his country for 6. Thanks again for the large amount of feedback, like a lot of people who write, I tend to get a bit blinded by my own writing.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

So to summarize current status, with the weekend coming up, two supports plus the nominator (one who reviewed it at PR, one who is new to the game), image check done, technical check done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:48, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments Support All comments addressed. DrKiernan (talk) 08:33, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

• Prose: It's a bit wordy in places. For the first sentence, why not the punchier: "John George Diefenbaker, (September 18, 1895 – August 16, 1979) was the 13th Prime Minister of Canada from June 21, 1957 to April 22, 1963. "led" is repeated 5 times in the lead; and "appointed" twice: Why not "Diefenbaker appointed the first woman Cabinet minister and the first aboriginal member of the Senate." Why not: "Diefenbaker stood for re-election as party leader at the last moment, but only attracted minimal support and withdrew."
  • "he was given charge of political patronage there, and was created a King's Counsel." Are these two events supposed to be connected? I would assume that appointment as KC was independent of politics.
  • I'd move the link to World War II further up, maybe where it says "role in the war effort"
  • I don't see a link to Canadian federal election, 1957 in the prose. One might be useful.
  • I misread "Cabinet approved measures that summer ranging from increased price supports for butter and turkeys to pay increases for federal employees" as meaning that the increased pay supports were to pay for federal employees! I recommend "increased price supports...increased pay".
  • "US$.925" looks odd to me; what was the rate before? Can we use "less than a US dollar" or "92.5 US cents" or "US$0.925"?
  • "seeking out other projects at this time": "at this time" can be dropped.
  • "that the Brian Mulroney government had Canada join the organization" may be easier as "that Canada joined under the Brian Mulroney government".
• Verifiability: I assume the quote "the only way to stop...arbitrary power" is from Bliss?
  • Presumably, "Dressed in a suit and tie, he is clearly aging with pouchy cheeks and hair combed from the middle to the sides." should be placed in alt text rather than the caption?
• Images: Licenses are all fine. I think you should sneak File:Johndiefenbaker.jpg and File:Diefcommons.jpg back into the article after the FAC has closed and Elcobbola's back is turned!
  • For the alt text on the 1977 image: "[his hairs] stick out straight from his head. His eyes are still penetrating..." makes him sound like an aggressive punk. I recommend losing the mohican: e.g. "Now in his 80s, his cheeks are pouchy and his hair combed to the sides. His back is straight and his eyes are still penetrating." If you want to keep it a similar length, maybe mention it's a three-piece navy-blue pinstripe.
  • I'm not keen on the statue alt text: I think it's an overcoat and suit rather than a robe and taken more from the side than below. I'd drop the maybe it's a book maybe it's a brief, I find it more confusing than helpful. The image looks fine on the left looking inwards to me.

On the plus side, the article flows well, and held my interest. I'm satisfied it meets all the other criteria. These are essentially minor quibbles. DrKiernan (talk) 11:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I will be on this later in the day. One thing, the appointment as King's Counsel was, according to the source, political spoils, as it mentions another Conservative activist who got the silks. God knows Dief deserved them, he is by all accounts one of the most effective barristers in the first half century of Saskatchewan, I have a book, "Diefenbaker for the Defence". He was a great lawyer. Things were not as sedate in 1920's Saskatchewan as in London ...--Wehwalt (talk) 15:06, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

I've done all those things now, with minor changes to the wording. Regarding the Diefenbaker statue, I've moved it to the left (he was to the left of his party, anyway). A little research and I find that he is carrying the Bill of Rights under his arm; I've included that in the alt text. Thanks for your feedback.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the support, DrKiernan. Well, three supports (the peer reviewer and two others), image check done, and rechecked by DrKiernan, technical check done, alt text in order. It's been a long FAC, but it has improved the article in my view. I'm not aware of anything further that needs to be done, if anyone else is, please feel free to comment. I've gotten very fond of this article, even while working fitfully on my next project, Antonin Scalia.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:49, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Wehwalt, it would be good to separate these notes out of References and into a Note section:

• ^ Note: Kim Campbell also became a PC Prime Minister, but she never won an election to gain that role.
• ^ Note: The exact phrasing of what Diefenbaker said to Laurier varies from source to source.

If you don't know how to do that, my TSP can probably help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:36, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.