Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Supernatural (season 2)/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:13, 25 January 2010 [1].

Supernatural (season 2)[edit]

Nominator(s): Ωphois 16:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured article because three different copy-edits have been done since previous nomination (by myself, Airplaneman, and ATC), and I feel everything is up to FA standards. Ωphois 16:08, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: Nicely written, I think it meets FAC criteria. ATC . Talk 16:28, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, leaning support: A nicely written, comprehensive article. Nice work. The Flash {talk} 18:02, 23 December 2009 (UTC) There's still some continuing issues from the last FAC that I brought up that need to be fixed:[reply]
  • In the lead, the info about the change to The CW could be improved a bit. Explain how it used to be on the WB.
Changed to: 'It was the first season to air on the CW television network, a joint venture of The WB and UPN; the previous was broadcast on The WB." Ωphois 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the description for "Playthings," move the actress who plays Maggie up to after the character's first mention
Done. Ωphois 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also in "Writing:" "Some storylines originated from ideas that writers could not[...]" -> "[...]ideas that the writers[...]"
Done. Ωphois 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "Reception:" "He also found "Nightshifter" to the "best action[...]"" -. "to be the "best action[...]""
Done. Ωphois 18:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Flash {talk} 17:58, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Solid article which (I think) definitely meets FA criteria. Airplaneman talk 06:01, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think I either supported or was close to doing so last time round. Anyhow, looks good now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice little article.

"and attempt to discover what the demon's plan is for Sam and other psychic children like him." - Maybe "and attempt to discover the demon's plan for Sam and other psychic children like him."

Done. Ωphois 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The word "season" is used 3, 3, and 2 times in the fist three paragraphs. A bit too much. "Casting" is 3, 6, 2. "Writing" uses the word a ton early on. "Reception" is 4, 8, 1. "DVD Release" has 7 of them.

I'll work on the production and reception section. I managed to remove one from the lead, but their is no other word I know of that is synonymous with "season", so I can't think of any other way of phrasing it in the lead. Ωphois 20:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Same with the other sections. "Season" is mainly used as an adjective, so I don't know of any other way of having it. Ωphois 20:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"It averaged about 3.14 million American viewers, and was in danger of being canceled." - This isn't clear to me. Was it going to be not renewed? Canceled half way through?

Changed to "in danger of not being renewed". Ωphois 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The cast and crew gained many award nominations" - "gained" is awkward.

Changed to: "The cast and crew received many award nominations, but the season garnered mixed reviews from critics." Ωphois 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"While both the brotherly chemistry between the lead actors and the decision to finish the main storyline at the season's end were praised, the formulaic structure of the episodes was criticized." - Was this by the critics? If so, say that. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:09, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The previous sentence notes the mixed reviews from critics, so to me it would seem repetitive. Ωphois 20:26, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"In exchange for saving Dean's life, he will give up his own life, his immortal soul, and the mystical Colt." - Might be good to say what the mystical Colt is.

Done. Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"As the genius Ash (Chad Lindberg) attempts to analyze John's research on Azazel with his computer" - Maybe "As the bar's resident genius Ash (Chad Lindberg) attempts to analyze John's research on Azazel with his computer"

Done. Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Dean later takes out his anger over his father's death on the Impala. " - Might be good to explain what the Impala is.

Wikilinked to it's entry on main page. Is that okay? Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"was executed and buried on the location where the apartment building was later built." - "at the location" maybe? Not sure.

I think "on" works better. Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"This makes Sam realize that the woman's spirit" - "Sam realizes that the woman's spirit"

Done. Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You might want to remove the word "actually" in episodes 7 and 8. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:36, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removed from episode 8, but I think it works better with it in episode 7. Ωphois 22:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"leading Sam to believe his father's belief of Croatoan being a demonic plague." - Maybe "father's theory"

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"it contacts someone to inform him that Sam was immune to the virus. " - Maybe "is immune"

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"a single mother, who plans to sell it." - Not sure the commas is needed.

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"and a metal pipe on the truck falls and impales him to death," - "to death" probably not needed.

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"He then visits Jo at her job and begins sadistically toying with her head," - Sounds like her head is not attached to her body. Maybe "playing mind games" or something.

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Sam shoots Dean and flees to Bobby." - "flees to Bobby's" maybe. Also, should say who Bobby is, since it's the first mention. (Who Bobby is is in the next episode)

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"and Bobby learns that the demon used a binding ritual to bind itself into Sam's body" - "and Bobby learns that the demon used a binding ritual to bind itself to Sam's body"

Done. Ωphois 22:05, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"it reveals that it is the same demon which formerly resided within Meg Masters." - First mentino of Meg. Might want to say who she is. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would a wikilink work? Meg herself is just a shell until the fourth season, so explaining who she is wouldn't really work IMO. Ωphois 22:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They salt and burn several bodies. You might want to explain why in the first instance. They also use salt as protection several times. Might want to explain that as well. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 20:55, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added in the first instance that salt is a deterrent of ghosts, so I think that also covers the "salt and burn" instances since they involve ghosts. Ωphois 22:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ADR (Automated dialogue replacement) should be fully spelled out, I think.

Since it's wiki-linked, I personally don't think it's necessary. Ωphois 22:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is hard to find another word for "season". Sometimes you can use "it". "When production of the second season started, Kripke wanted to avoid the monster-of-the-week formula used in the first season." could use "the previous year" for the second instance. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:13, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made these changes. Ωphois 22:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ADR should be spelled out per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations)

Done. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"but decided against it because he did not have knowledge of production details." - Maybe "but decided against it because he did not have production knowledge."

Done. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"and decided to have production look like "goofballs"" - "the production"? What is goofballs? The production crew look like goofballs?

Changed to "the production staff" Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The plot, which apparently "fell into place" during the writing process, " - Why was it "apparently"?

Removed it. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"hallucinates that she is mental patient" - "a mental"?

Done. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"the writers would have to devise a way for Sam and Dean to escape in the end." - "the writers had to devise a way for Sam and Dean to escape in the end."?

That element was changed during development, so the writers never had to devise it. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

" which Kripke feels ended up improving the episode" - "felt"? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 22:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Ωphois 01:52, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Nice article. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for image concerns (criteria 3):

  • File:Werewolf3.jpg: fails WP:NFCC #1 and 8; text perfectly serves to describe the differences (more like a vampire than traditional werewolves, eyes change color and fangs grow out of teeth, or such). Werewolf mention also seems a bit light (primary source intent, one secondary source comment)
  • File:Croatoan.jpg: source, author, date of first publishing (and/or creation) required to verify if this image's declared license is true
  • File:Supernatural S2 DVD.jpg: "To illustrate a DVD release of the full season discussed, and identify the season in the article." is a bit weak. Suggest buffing up the rationale on why the DVD cover is a good fair-use image on critical grounds.
    I have refined the FUR.[2] Jappalang (talk) 12:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Data of "free" image is non-verifiable (WP:IUP#Requirements), one non-free image seems to be untenable with NFCC, and one could do with improvement. Jappalang (talk) 03:09, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'm fine with getting rid of the werewolf image, and I'm working on the Croatoan image. The most I can find right now is that Corbis-Bettmann appears to have it in its archives.
      • I got rid of both images, and replaced the Croatoan picture with a quotation about a different episode. Ωphois 07:10, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I also added in a photo to the Casting section. Ωphois 07:20, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • What would you suggest for the infobox image rationale? Ωphois 03:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Would "To depict the subject matter, as well as the series leads"? Ωphois 04:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • DVD cover's FUR has been refined, Croatoan.jpg and Werewolf3.jpg were removed. Latest image (of Amber Benson) is appropriately licensed. Withdrawing image opposition. Jappalang (talk) 12:07, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now by Karanacs. Overall, I found this an engaging and well-written article, but there were some areas that I got completely bogged down in. I've never seen this show, and I haven't read anything else about it. The article body opens with the episode list, and I was totally confused. I highly recommend a background or overview section that would summarize the first season very briefly.

    • I think that just elaborating on the car wreck would suffice. What do you think? Ωphois 18:55, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • You're the expert on the series - I still haven't read the article for Season 1, so I don't know what other connections I might be missing. Karanacs (talk) 19:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The only first season things that would affect the Episodes section are the mother's death, Azazel, the Colt, the psychic children, and the car wreck. I've elaborated on the first four, so I think adding a little bit about the wreck will cover it. Ωphois 19:53, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first episode mentions lots of characters, but doesn't tell me who they are. Nowhere does it mention that John is Sam's father - this can only be found in an easter egg link in the lead (or, as I see now, later in the episode list - but by then I'm already confused). Who (or what) is Azazel?
  • Subsequent episode descriptions have a lot of links (very good), but I would have to click each of them to figure out what is going on (a Rakshasa?...isn't an Impala a car...can't we just say on the car?)
  • What significance do dead plants over a grave have? (ep 26)...The first sentence doesn't seem to me to provide much useful information at all.
  • episode 27 -
    • how did their mother die? it's alluded to, but not stated.
    • "although the man still ends up killing himself" - which man? the intended murder victim or the guy who originally intended to commit suicide?
      • It says "the man still ends up killing himself". It was to be a murder-suicide. They stopped the murder, but not the suicide. Ωphois 19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why do they want to track down someone whose mother died in a similar manner?
    • "after learning that he was adopted..." who is "he" referring to?
    • again, a mention of Azazel, and I don't know who that is
    • "Ash reveals that Ansem's adoptive mother did not die when he was an infant, meaning not every psychic child follows a traceable pattern" - huh? there's a pattern? who else did this happen to?
      • A season one character. The wikilink elaborates. Ωphois 19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • is this trying to say that Ansen is the one convincing people to commit suicide and Andy didn't have anything to do with it?
      • Yes. Changed sentence to: "However, Sam has another vision of a woman's suicide, and it comes to pass while they are talking to Andy, exonerating him." Ωphois 19:03, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ep 29
    • "Dean's previous record coming back to haunt him. " - what did he do?
    • "To put the spirit to rest, they must burn her body, but the woman appears " - I don't understand the "but" here....
      • They need her body to stop her, but she leads them to it. Ωphois 19:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • whose wife did Pete kill...that of the lawyer or that of Pete?
      • It's established in the first sentence of the summary. Ωphois 19:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sam is referred to as a "child" more than once - how old is he supposed to be?
    • Per earlier correction, elaborated on "psychic children" in the lead. Ωphois 19:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ep 32
    • " Despite this, his findings helps the brothers to realize " -- despite what? I think the article means..."The brothers instead realize that a shapeshifter..."
      • His research is based on the theory that it's a "mandroid", but they are still able to figure out the truth. Ωphois 19:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Changed to "With his findings, the brothers instead realize that a shapeshifter is behind it all." Ωphois 18:55, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not happy with the writing section. At times it reads like a big list of "this episode did this, and that episode did that, and the next episode did...". This leads to paragraphs that seem to jam several different ideas together, breaking up the flow. Is there a way to draw out any of the larger themes as topic sentences and restructure the section so that a paragraph has a particular broader topic, which may discuss several episodes that involved that topic? If you keep the current episode-centric structure, I recommend that you split some of the larger paragraphs so that we have a single paragraph about each episode.
    • They already are broken up into different themes: previously unused ideas, simple concepts, influences by popular culture, and deviations in the writing process. Ωphois 18:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there any way to construct an overall themes section for the article? Generally, a lot can be found analyzing popular science fiction shows. Is this one popular enough to have generated anything looking at what is going on in this season? Themes of family, or ....??

Karanacs (talk) 18:27, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Overall themes are addressed in the first paragraph of the writing section. Anything else would be OR. Ωphois 18:35, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I was able find an interview in which he says the psychic children were another main storyline, so I added it to the first paragraph. Ωphois 19:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral. Excellent work on making the episode list more accessible! I was interested enough to read the summaries of the other seasons and may actually start watching this now. I unfortunately don't have the time to review the Writing section right now, but I would not have opposed on that basis alone. Karanacs (talk) 20:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose On sources What makes these reliable?

I'm not impressed with some of these pop articles that come at FAC with sources like these. Do people know that trade publications (or even a basic Google Archive search) exist?

    • A lot of information is not available in trade publications, though I have found some in magazines. As for Google Archive, that is actually how I found a lot of the sources used (including the sources you questioned above). Ωphois 23:09, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are two methods of citing authors' names. Pick one and stick to it.
    • What do you mean? Ωphois 16:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • i.e. Tom Jones OR Jones, Tom RB88 (T) 21:51, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Online refs do not need italics (unless you choose to cite the print publication of the website). Also add italics to print refs.
  • Some refs have both work and publisher. Remove one in these for uniformity with the rest.

RB88 (T) 15:52, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The refs need a bit of work. Print publications (newspapers, magazines, etc.) are italicized; I saw a Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ref and Chicago Tribune ref that needed this done, but please check throughout. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:45, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those are websites, not print. Ωphois 23:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose. Underwhelmed; one of the weakest FACs over recent months if it's promoted. But I won't stand in the way.

  • Why is "United States" linked, in the infobox?
    • Why wouldn't it be? Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Because it's not a useful target to divert to, and because WP:LINK says it's not normally linked. Tony (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed. Ωphois 16:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mother" and "father" pipes: no one will click on them. Why not make them consistent with Sam, Dean etc a second previously?
  • Why is "box" linked? And "retailers"?
    • Fixed "box". "Digital retailers" is linked so people unfamiliar with it can view it. Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Digital retailer" seems pretty obvious to me. Tony (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to discover the demon's plan for Sam and other psychic children—young adults who were visited by Azazel as infants and given abilities, often having their mother then die in a fire—like him." Erk. Can the last two words be before the first dash?
    • No, as it would not make sense in that order. Ωphois 23:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll remove "like him". Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • —saving ... could that be a comma instead?
    • No, it is supposed to be an mdash, per the previous nomination. Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it the network or the season that was the first venture?
    • The network. Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • So was that fixed?
  • "the previous was broadcast on The WB"—the previous what?
  • "It averaged about 3.14 million American viewers, and the series was in danger of not being renewed." Logic: "only about".
    • That would be biased, as we don't know if that is considered low-ratings by the network. Ωphois 23:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • So why the "but"? That was the source of my concern.
        • Where is there a "but"? Ωphois 16:29, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Anyways, I changed it to "only about", as a source says it was "on the bubble". Ωphois 18:12, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "internationally syndicated" link target is pretty feeble. Do we need it?
    • For people who don't understand what international syndication is. Ωphois 23:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It looks like a dictionary word to me: WP is not a dictionary, and the readers are meant to be able to speak English.
  • "the amount of American viewers"—number of.
  • "serial killer" is linked. Why?
    • So people can better understand the topic of serial killers, one of which is the villain of the episode. Ωphois 18:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • What in particular in the "Serial killer" article is useful for readers of this topic to know? Tony (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't gone further. The start suggests that the whole thing needs an independent copy-edit. Tony (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • It has already been copy-edited by two other people. Mostly everything you've listed are minor or nit-picks, so another copy-edit isn't really needed. I'll take care of the other ones either tonight or tomorrow. Ωphois 23:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS "the writers desired to flesh out the concept of hunters." ... Plain English, please. Tony (talk) 23:02, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • Done. Ωphois 19:23, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't give a dump how many times it's been copy-edited. It needs more, preferably by someone who is unfamiliar with the text. Throughout. Tony (talk) 12:53, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • The majority of your concerns pertain to the lead, which is a summary of the entire article and thus would be the place for issues like those because it's summarizing a lot of plot detail into a few sentences. It would take me a couple of minutes to look through the rest for overlinking, so I think I can fix any other issues. Ωphois 18:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've gone through and removed unnecessary links. Ωphois 18:43, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check:

  • "are taken to a hospital in Memphis following a car wreck"—sounds as though they follow the wreck to the hospital. "following a car accident"?
    • I don't see how that changes anything other than the context of what happened. I think wreck is more appropriate, as the car was totaled. To me, "accident" seems minor. Ωphois 03:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "make it out of the crash with only minor injuries, a dying Dean (Ackles) is in a coma"—probably drop "only". Comma before "who".
  • "and offers to make a deal. In exchange for saving Dean's life, he will"—replace stop with colon.
  • "Dean later takes out his anger over his father's death on"—probably drop the temporal tags such as "later" and "then" when it's clearly a narrative. (There are other instances, too.) "anger at" is more usual.
    • I think the temporal tags are appropriate for flow reasons. Changed to "at". Ωphois 03:08, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sam and Dean dig up her grave, and find the coffin empty."

Probably remove comma for a smoother read.

  • "and reveals that he has had trouble coping with the guilt he feels over their father's death". I'd remove "that" and consider "with his guilt over ...". I've withdrawn my strong oppose, but I believe this is not an example of WP's best work. Tony (talk) 02:01, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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