Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Man in the Moone/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]
The Man in the Moone[edit]
The Man in the Moone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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- Nominator(s): Drmies (talk), John O'London (talk), Eric Corbett (talk) 17:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies and I started work on this article about one of the earliest works of British science fiction so long ago that I can hardly remember why we embarked on it. I'm glad we did though, because I think that together, with the help of John O'London, we've produced one of the best, if not the best, encyclopedic accounts of this rather short but surprisingly influential book you're likely to find anywhere. I hope you agree. Malleus Fatuorum 17:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- This actually started as a little DYK present for MF, following on a remark he made while we were working on the green children. Then it became a monster. Let me add that I'm an academic writer by profession and do not mind tweakage for more encyclopedic diction and syntax. However. Drmies (talk) 22:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a super article. I'd like to see instances of "aforementioned", "additionally" and "however" reduced to a minimum or eliminated before I could support on prose. May be more comments to come, that's just on a first pass. --John (talk) 10:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sources and images - spotchecks not done
- Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
- File:Godwin_man_in_the_moone.jpg: if they author died more than 100 years ago, we can just assume he died more than 70 years ago - +100 is fine on its own
- FN14, 52, 53: page formatting
- FN15: page?
- Ranges should use endashes (not hyphens or emdashes)
- Be consistent in how ranges are abbreviated
- Be sure to identify foreign-language sources
- Be consistent in whether you include locations for books. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:11, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think I got all those except for the page numbers for FN15, which I don't immediately have access to, and flagging the language on a couple of the sources. As I wouldn't feel confident in distinguishing between Dutch and Flemish I'll leave that for Drmies to sort out. Malleus Fatuorum 19:42, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from Jim Excellent article, just a few quibbles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Spelling includes both AE and BE, should be consistently the latter, especially since you have both "favor" and "favour"
- Two of "Further reading" need language fields
- Lunar speculation—why is lunar capped here?
- posthumously, Jesuit, circumnavigation, Tenerife, Calvinist, genealogy —link?
- Sidereus Nuncius, Somnium sive opus posthumum de astronomia lunaris, De Christiana expeditione apud Sinas—Give a translation?
- 1630s also saw the publication —also seems redundant
- Peking —is this version rather than Beijing a conscious choice?
- Lunar Christianity—again, why caps
- Because "Lunar" is the name Godwin gives to the inhabitants of the Moon, therefore it's a proper noun here. I'll read through again to make sure we've been consistent in using "lunar" when we're talking about the Moon and "Lunar" when we're talking about the people. Malleus Fatuorum 17:05, 28 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- gansa—does the book actually say they are swans? It looks like the Indo-European root for "goose" (I don't have access to the OED, which presumably clarifies)
- Lunar inhabitants.— why caps?
- I added language parameters to the "Further reading". Personally, I wouldn't red-link journals, but then I wouldn't blue-link either, just a style thing. I had a quick look to see if I could spot anything else, but all looks good, changed to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:45, 29 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That linking is my doing, no doubt, for reasons which have as much to do with the journals and their (future) articles as with this specific article. I'm a big fan of redlinks when appropriate, and I think (or I like to think) that I didn't add them for non-notable publications. Malleus's mileage may vary. Or can vary. Drmies (talk) 19:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Parrot of Doom comments. I've worked with Malleus on several articles but have had no input on this one, indeed this review will be the first time I've read it. Due to restraints on my time, I will review only the text; citations et al I leave to others.
"Initially considered an early work of Godwin's" - minor thing but this sentence made me check who Godwin is, despite him having been mentioned in the previous sentence. Can you not just write "Initially considered to be one of his early works"?There are lots of citations in the lead section, are most of them necessary?"Godwin proposes that the dark spots on the Moon are seas, one of many similarities between The Man in the Moone and Kepler's Somnium sive opus posthumum de astronomia lunaris of 1634" - this sentence, from the lead, is almost identical to a sentence in the first paragraph of "Scientific advances and lunar speculation". Is it possible to reword to avoid a sense of deja vu?- "lunatic church" - is there any connection between this phrase and the old lunacy/lunar connection?
Who or what are/were Grant McColley and William Poole?- I've added a parenthetical note explaining that McColley is "a historian of early Modern English literature". I'm not sure that Poole needs to be similarly introduced though, as he's clearly described as the author of the 2009 edition of The Man in the Moone. Malleus Fatuorum 22:45, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "Dating evidence" - there's quite a lot of valuable information in this section but I wonder, would a small preface make it more readable for the casual observer? Something about how the dating evidence is found in historical authors, clerics, old texts, etc? Also, some of the authors are only given names, while others - "based on a manuscript by Matteo Ricci, the founder of the Jesuit mission in Beijing in 1601" - are given titles. I'm no historian, so I had to click to see who was what. Later in the article, other writers and historical figures are given titles, so perhaps there's a little bit of inconsistency there.
Who was Kathleen Tillotson?- She was professor of English at Bedford College London, and a noted Victorian scholar, particularly of Dickens; I'm a bit surprised there isn't an article on her. For our purposes I've added a description of her as a literary critic, which she also was. Malleus Fatuorum 19:48, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Lawton's 1931 article mentions a copy" - Lawton's full name and title is missing, and also the title or purpose of his article."The printer of the first edition is identified on the title page as John Norton" - to which copy does this refer - McColley's, Lawton's or Poole's?- "The partial revision of the manuscript " - same question as above
"and so do the many translations based on Baudoin" - would it be appropriate to substitute "it" for "Baudoin"?"Eventually he comes to rely on a species of bird he describes a some kind of wild swan" - typo?"When Gonsales first encounters the Lunars" - I can probably guess who they are, but the plot section doesn't mention him meeting "Lunars", only "inhabitants".Is it an omission that we only learn of Godwin's protestantism half way through the article? In fact, the article doesn't exactly make it clear what his religion was."discussion on the plurality of worlds had begun to favour the possibility of other inhabited worlds" - repetition of worlds- Who are P Cornelius and H. Neville Davies?
- Some foreign language titles are translated, whereas others (De Magnete, L'Autre Monde: où les États et Empires de la Lune for instance), are not.
- FWIW, I asked above for some of the less transparent titles to be translated. I can see that leads to a bit of inconsistency, but De Magnete is pretty obvious, and I would have thought L'Autre Monde: où les États et Empires de la Lune was accessible enough Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Who and what is Knowlson?
"The Man in the Moone became a popular source for "often extravagantly staged comic drama and opera".[59] These" - I'm nit-picking but is drama and opera singular, or plural?"Gonsales's gansas have also left their mark." - that might be better written as "Gonsales's load-carrying birds" or similar.
I can't think of much that's possibly missing from this article, although truth be told, I found some sections, particularly those discussing other, similar works, to be slightly impenetrable. But the above criticisms aside, I'd definitely support this. Parrot of Doom 17:35, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I've read this a couple of times now, and aside from a few minor points listed below, can find very little to fault. It is well-written, clear and interesting. The points below do not affect my support. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Do we need a touch more about the plot in the lead? It seems a bit light on that aspect.
- "During his life, he was known as a churchman and a historian": I wonder if we need to say that he is a churchman? As he was a bishop, I'd imagine that was pretty clear.
- "The influence particularly of Nicolaus Copernicus led to what was called the "new astronomy"": I imagine the intention here is to say "the influence (particularly of Copernicus) led to new astronomy", but it does not quite say this, and "the influence … led" does not quite make sense. Should it be something like "These influences and particularly those of Nicholas Copernicus, led to…"? I'm not sure if I'm making sense, but there is something slightly off in this section.
- I wonder if Astronomia nova bears any relation to this? Parrot of Doom 20:52, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "while poets including Edmund Spenser were proposing that other worlds": Could this just be "proposed" instead of "were proposing"?
- "it had been considered that Godwin wrote The Man in the Moone relatively early in his life": To me, "it had been considered" is a little cumbersome; I'd prefer "it was thought", but not a big deal.
- I wonder is the dating section a little long? It is almost as long as the plot section, and seems to labour the point that he wrote it later than originally thought. But not a big issue for me.
- It's two big fat paragraphs, that's true. One reason for its length is that it was a pretty big deal, at least until it got settled. Another is that the grounds for dating the text involve some pretty big things--other texts, borrowings, and the growth of scientific knowledge--and they can't just be mentioned but have to be contextualized. As such, it also serves to introduce some of those scientific and historical issues, like the Chinese Jesuit mission and the relationship to Burke. Drmies (talk) 21:59, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "resulting in the Martin Marprelate controversy": Is it worth saving the reader a click or two by explaining this in the text? Sarastro1 (talk) 19:32, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, as one of the nominators(!), I've been so busy watching the ongoing edits, I've only just spotted something that dates back to April 2011 under "Dating evidence" - "it was thought that Godwin wrote The Man in the Moone relatively early in his life, perhaps during his time at Christ College from 1578 to 1584". Now I may have been at "the other place" myself, but I'm pretty sure it's never "Christ College" in Oxford. Under "Background and contexts" he's more correctly described as "a student of Christ Church, Oxford" with a wikilink (and the link reminds us that "'Students of Christ Church' [note capital "S"] are not students, but rather the equivalent of the fellows of the other colleges" - does this need explanation?). - John O'London (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- "one of which also a lunar travel narrative" I assume there's a word missing?
- the subscription required template isn't required after JSTOR links; this is typically given if the title is linked (i.e., via the "url="parameter) and the reader might be expecting to find the full document when the link is clicked through. Also, it is redundant to give both the doi and the JSTOR link, as the doi leads to the JSTOR page.
- ref#20 (McColley) is missing a year, and the title is in sentence case, unlike most others in title case. Not sure what the first number in "4 17 (4)" represents.
- page ranges are not given consistently: compare pp. 23–24 with pp. 153–4.
- "Frederiks & Branden (1888–1891)" -> (1888–91) per MOS:YEAR?
- does Bennett 1983 not have a JSTOR link? How about Dziubinskyj 2003 and Sharpe 2011?
- does the title of Hutton 1983 really not have a possessive apostrophe in "Godwins"?
- should the hyphen in the title of Frederiks (1888–1891) be an endash ("der Noord - en Zuidnederlandsche letterkunde")?
- Sorry, but I have to change that back as well: the hyphen indicates elision ("Noordnederlandsche en Zuidnederlandsche letterkund") and "belongs" to the adjective.
- Godwin 1768 has the title in sentence case
Delegate comments
- Pls go through dup links with the checker and see what you really need, if any.
- I'd expect the last sentence of English editions and translations to be cited.
Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:15, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- re "I'd expect the last sentence of English editions and translations to be cited." - just move the Poole and Buisman citations (notes 27 and 28) to the end of the sentence. John O'London (talk) 11:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the logic is exactly the same as it is for the plot section, in which the book itself is the source, so I don't think that sentence needs to be cited. Eric Corbett 01:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 02:36, 1 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.