Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2011 September 22

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September 22

Disputed facts and veracity of sources

I have made an edit to an article which has been changed a couple of times, regarding the birthplace of a person. I added the reasoning for my edit, which is supported by the person's birth certificate. Each time the edit has been changed by the same user. In response to my comment, he posted "it doesnt matter, on Wikipedia we go by what the sources say. Unless you can find a reliable source online that says Iosco Township, this stays"

1st question: How do I contact the user to discuss the topic?

2nd question: Really? An online source trumps an official government document? I was under the impression we were supposed to provide accurate information, not just what has been repeated ad nauseum on the internet, even if it's incorrect.

I'd like to know more about these topics. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgrimm59 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Charlie Gehringer (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

1. Your edits were challenged by Yankees10 (talk · contribs), so you could begin a discussion at User talk:Yankees10. Alternatively, if the discussion would be of general interest to all editors maintaining that article, you could begin a discussion at the article's talk page, Talk:Charlie Gehringer.
2. Yankees10's comment is 99% correct. For a longer explanation you should look through the policy page Wikipedia:Verifiability. My one quibble is with the word "online", as reliable sources do not have to be online. Offline sources such as books and newspapers are fine, provided they are cited in enough detail; see Wikipedia:Offline sources. However, a birth certificate is not a reliable source because a reader would not be able to verify the information for himself. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Respectfully John, I disagree in part, or at least I don't think it's nearly so straightforward. First, I agree that of course the person got it entirely wrong about sources having to be available online. But a person's birth certificate is I think pretty clearly a reliable source. Birth certificates are normally official records, with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. They are, of course, primary sources, which is also allowed, but primary sources needs to be used carefully, especially to avoid original research, and one aspect of that that could be relevant here is: How do we know this is not the birth certificate of someone else with the same name? The bigger question here, though, is whether it provides verifiability, which requires that sources be published and, in interpretation, moderately accessible to public review—only available in a library is fine; only one locked in a vault somewhere, not so much. Birth certificates may be publicly available in some places (even available for ordering online for a not inconsiderable fee by anyone through services like vitalchek), but in others, only accessible by family members and government officials. So I think the question is thorny and requires an examination of particular context: It's not straightforward to use a birth certificate as a source, but it's not straightforward to dismiss one either as a source.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your correction. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Never fear. There is already a perfectly good online source for the birthplace within the article. It just needed to be properly annotated, which I have now done here. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 02:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Revert error - help needed

I screwed up and moved the Harry Strauss page to Henry L. Straus and can't undo it. Can somebody do it it? Hialeah Harry (talk) 01:16, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done I moved the page back to Harry Strauss. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 01:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia app on iPhone and other mobile devices

First, when opening app, please do NOT go to Today's Featured Article. It takes a long time, and wastes bandwidth, which costs us real money. Please fix that ASAP. I don't know who's responsible for that, nor should I have to care. Second, Bugzilla? Get real. There seems to be a trend to force even casual users to use horrendously complex systems like Github. Please don't go that route. Just let us submit a form and let a developer sort it out. If you're short on developers, don't try to get users to do your work for you. Love Wikipedia! Wish there was an offline version to use when net not available. (Email address removed) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.143.146 (talk) 03:39, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

You may wish to read Wikipedia#Accessing Wikipedia's content. Many contributors never use Bugzilla, you might just wish to leave a note at wp:VPT. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

i want to help from people

sir i want to study higher studies but i dont have that much of amount please help me because my family background was poor. please help me — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.117.192.99 (talk) 05:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

You are at Wikipedia, an online encyclopedia, and this is the Help desk for people using or editing it. I'm very sorry, but we are unable to help you financially. -- John of Reading (talk) 09:24, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

list of satellite crashes

i would love to see a list of satellites that have fallen to earth, where, when, and so forth. also satellite collisions. i have searched for such a list everywhere and haven't found even a partial one. yet someone MUST keep such a record already. 72.208.127.111 (talk) 12:12, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. If you have sources for such a list and already can write up some verifiable content, you can submit it to Wikipedia:Articles for creation. If you don't already have sources or any content for the article but still would like to see it included in Wikipedia, you can try Wikipedia:Requested articles. Just follow the instructions on these pages. Also it might be helpful to read Wikipedia:Introduction. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 12:19, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

You can start with Category:Artificial satellites formerly orbiting Earth, which is probably incomplete and includes Skylab which was not a satellite. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 14:51, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, why do you say that Skylab was not a satellite? - David Biddulph (talk) 14:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Foreing exchange

If pound transfer to my account there will be any charge taken by rbi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.97.127.227 (talk) 12:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

This page is for questions about using Wikipedia. Please consider asking this question at the Wikipedia:Reference desk. They specialize in knowledge questions and will try to answer any question in the universe (except how to use Wikipedia, since that is what this Help Desk is for). Just follow the link, select the relevant section, and ask away. You could always try searching Wikipedia for an article related to the topic you want to know more about. I hope this helps.-- Obsidi♠n Soul 12:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

birth date (previously archived thread, revived to allow reply)

Dear editor,

My bio is listed with birth date and birth place. I think these are confidential information. I wonder if they can be deleted from mine and others who are listed?

Thanks,

Ken Chong — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.96.197.139 (talk) 12:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The information should not appear in Wikipedia unless it has already been published in reliable secondary sources. - David Biddulph (talk) 12:56, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources. Are you referring to Ken P. Chong? PrimeHunter (talk) 14:04, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The information appears to be cited in a reliable source - can someone verify this? If the information is not in the cited publication, it should be removed; if it is in the source, but it can be shown that the source is unreliable then it should be removed. If, however, it is a reliable source and the information is accurate in the article, then the information is available in a public source, and so should be left in the article. If I get a chance, I will look into this further. -- PhantomSteve.alt/talk\^{[alternative account of Phantomsteve]} 15:48, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Further, if that is the only source, I would suggest that the DoB should be just given as the year. If other reliable sources give the full date, they should be cited and the full date left in the article. As I say, I'll look into this more when I have more time, hopefully tomorrow -- PhantomSteve.alt/talk\^{[alternative account of Phantomsteve]} 15:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

The date of birth of Ken P. Chong does not appear to have been "widely published by reliable sources" so it should be removed on request from the subject per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources. The IP originally signed as "Ken P. Chong" [1] but later removed the "P." [2] I don't see why he would change the name away from the title of the article if that was the bio he referred to. I cannot find other Ken Chong's in Wikipedia but this help desk gets a lot of posts from people who think we represent other websites or organizations, and my question whether it is him has not been answered so far. I'm uncertain whether we have a request from the subject of Ken P. Chong. PrimeHunter (talk) 17:39, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm the person responsible for putting the place and date of birth together with the supporting reference. I'm sorry – I didn't mean to cause distress. The data is clearly given in the source [redacted]. I genuinely regarded this publication as a reliable public source, and apologise if that is not the case. Best regards, — Hebrides (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I redacted part of your post since the help desk is indexed by search engines and the poster (who by the way never confirmed he was actually the subject of the given article) may want the date removed from all Wikipedia pages. The source is public and nobody has questioned the reliability. I don't think you did anything wrong but per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources we should remove the date now when we (probably) have a request from the subject. PrimeHunter (talk) 16:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

• Can we at least confirm this was the article subject before compromising on the completeness of the article? _ 194.60.106.38 (talk) 13:21, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The post was a week ago. A lot of help desk posters never follow up. Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Privacy of personal information and using primary sources says "err on the side of caution" and mentions the date can also be omitted without a request. Ken P. Chong is not high profile and does not have a widely published date of birth so I think it is OK it was removed. PrimeHunter (talk) 09:50, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Replace minus signs with endashes

How can I replace minus signs in an article with endashes? Is the character included in the special characters dropdown menu in category "Symbols", second character after m³ an endash? I guess it is, but unfortunately there is no description of the symbols included in the dropdown menu, so I want to be sure. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

If you're using a PC and Windows, you can type an n-dash from the keyboard. Hold down the Alt key while you type 0150 on the numeric keypad. When you release the Alt key, the – appears. Hope that helps. — Hebrides (talk) 15:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but I only have a laptop (which does not have a numeric keypad). Is there a solution not requiring a numpad? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

You can type – into the edit window and it will show up in the page as –

Does that work for you? — Hebrides (talk) 15:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Most laptops have a way of turning on a numerical keypad using the normal keys. On mine it is the FN key with the F10 key. GB fan 15:43, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The specific problem is the collapsible table in the article Wilson prime. In the column titled B some of the negative numbers are preceded with minus signs, while others seem to be preceeded with endashes. I want to replace all minus signs with endashes there. However, even in the places where I see endashes in read mode, the markup in the edit window is simply -. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Can AWB do the replacement? If this is the case, could someone with AWB simply go through the table and replace the signs? Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 15:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I replaced them, but why wouldn't you use a minus sign? That's not how en dashes where meant to be used. — Bility (talk) 20:07, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, even the fifth code from the box at WP:MATH#TeX vs HTML produces −, so it seems to me - should never be used as a minus sign (at least in mathematical articles). Thanks for performing the replacement. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 20:33, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

They should be replaced with minuses then, not en dashes. They're not the same (−–). I can replace them if you want. — Bility (talk) 21:00, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I see. Yes, it would be great if you could replace them. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 21:06, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Okay done. Most of the ones in the list were already minus signs to begin with. — Bility (talk) 21:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 21:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

• Try this. Regards.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_Hey^{it's me} 20:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Added to my vector.js. Toshio Yamaguchi (talk) 22:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

I entered significant changes to Swietenia humilis a few minutes ago. All have disappeared.

Please trace. I entered several hundred word text to mahogany tree species Swietenia humilis in the edit section. I attempted to advance to the discussion section to ask questions and clearify my editing. When I did that all my changes (which took over an hour to input because of all the coding for scientific names etc.) disappeared. Can the editing be recovered? I don't know how to do that. Thank you. Clyde A. Hill (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

No. Your contributions page is blank, apart from your question here, so it looks as if you didn't save your edit. The button is "Save page". - David Biddulph (talk) 15:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

To add to the above, in future if you want to dive off to another page when you are part way through the edit, it is safest to open another tab or window, so perhaps use the "Duplicate Tab" button on your browser (or equivalent depending on what browser you are using). - David Biddulph (talk) 15:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Did you save the edits? The last edit to Swietenia humilis was in November of 2010. As a new user sometimes the software requires a CAPTCHA and you would have needed to enter the letters and then click save again. Did this come up? GB fan 15:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

As others say, you have to click Save page or open other pages in a new tab or window (for example with Ctrl+click or Shift+click in many browsers). If you accidentally go away from the editing page then many browsers will remember what you had typed if you use the browser back button, but that would probably be too late now. Some technical things can also go wrong when you try to save. Many editors copy large edits to another window, for example a text editor, before saving. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Experience has shown me it is smart to first type a large edit, or slab of new copy, into a separate text editor for cutting and pasting to WP. Otherwise you can inadvertently leave the page, have a system failure or be inconvenienced by an edit conflict. If an intended short edit develops into a long one, you can take out insurance by cutting and pasting the whole section or edit page to a text editor from time to time. Cheers, Bjenks (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Login: temporary password expiration time? And a request.

It has been noted in the archives that unused temporary passwords (which have been emailed by the "Email new password" button on the Login page) expire after "a few days". What is the specified timeout period? Please add this information to either the "Email new password" button response text, or to the email that is sent to the user. Thanks! --Lexein (talk) 15:54, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I haven't found the expiration time anywhere and don't know whether it's fixed. I suppose the developers would know but is it really important? PrimeHunter (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

mw:Manual:$wgNewPasswordExpiry says the MediaWiki default is 7 days. I haven't found a setting in http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=CommonSettings.php so I think we use the default. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:52, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The text of the emails is from MediaWiki:Passwordremindertext. Click "View source" to see how to make a suggestion. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Excellent research! As for how important it is for users to know the timeout, I can't speak for anyone else, but I was curious, in the context of random or malicious users clicking "Email new password". It's certainly a good practice for temp passwords to time out. I've made the suggestion at the text Talk and messages Talk. Thanks! --Lexein (talk) 08:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The sentence "Unused temporary passwords automatically expire in 7 days." has been added to the mails.[3] I have tested it's there by sending a new password to myself. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:43, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

New page not coming up in google searches

Hi all,

I created a page for the Washington Bar Association which was approved and is appearing in Wikipedia searches.

However it is not coming up in Google searches for "Washington Bar Association."

Is there something I need to do, or will it eventually become Google-able without further action?

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PurrfectPeach (talk • contribs) 19:54, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Google finds it. Did you remember to put the quote marks around the search string? Try "Washington Bar Association". - David Biddulph (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Google automatically indexes Wikipedia and usually within days or even hours. The article is currently the sixth Google hit for me on "Washington Bar Association" and the eigth on Washington Bar Association. Different people may get different Google search results pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Wrongful Redirection

How does someone prevent the wrongful redirection of a Wiki search?

I would like to add background history to the surname 'Souza' (Portuguese in origin, and pronounced as "sue-za");- yet the name search is redirected to the similar yet different surname 'Sousa' (Spanish in origin, and pronounced as "so-sa". The history of the Souza surname encompasses Portugal and Brazil, and has absolutely noting to do with the history of the Sousa surname in Spain and India.

Please... any assistance would be greatfully appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.147.43.73 (talk) 20:06, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

See Help:Redirect#Creating and editing redirects. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:31, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Indexing subcategories

Why are the different subcategories under "Benedictines," such as "priors" and "theologians," not indexing under the letters of those words, while it has happened for categories like "scholars"? How can this be corrected? Daniel the Monk (talk) 20:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Nobody has added sort keys to those subcategories of Category:Benedictines. See Help:Category#Sort order. PrimeHunter (talk) 20:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I have a question

The user Radon Detective recently left me a message about a deletion review for an article called Frederick Glaysher, but I was never involved in the deletion discussion, I did not speedily delete it, and I have never heard of Frederick Glaysher in my life. I want to tell Radon Detective that I knew nothing of this, but I can't, because his or her talk page has not been created yet. What should I do? Kitty53 (talk) 21:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you don't remember, but you participated in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Frederick Glaysher in 2008. Goodvac (talk) 21:31, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

You can simply create a user's talk page if you want to contact them. PrimeHunter (talk) 21:38, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

But if you do so, please get the user's name right. It is Radon Detection (talk · contribs), not Radon Detective (talk · contribs). - David Biddulph (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)