Wikipedia:Peer review/Billy Liddell/archive2

Billy Liddell

Previous peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.

It's been extensively copyedited this past week as a prelude to a (hopeful) nomination for FA status. I'd intended to submit it for consideration almost 2 years ago, but that was postponed indefinitely after I curtailed my activity on Wikipedia. It's a relatively niche article that would really benefit from fresh assesment.

Cheers, SoLando (Talk) 21:55, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: I grew up in Liverpool, and though Liddell was before my time, his name still resonated in the 70s and 80s, particularly as Liverpool were then the top football team of the era, no question. So it was interesting to read the article. Here are some issues that require attention, although I have not attempted a full prose check.

Lead

• The last part of the opening paragraph is a little confusing. I'm not sure why Ted Sagar gets mentioned, since he played for Everton, nor is it clear what record Sagar held that was beaten by Liddell. Can you clarify?
• Defeat "by" rather than "to" Arsenal?
• "Liddell's versatility enabled him to play comfortably on the opposite flank, as a centre forward, and inside forward." The meaning here is obscured by the punctuation. Clarification necessary

Early life

• Watch for the POV-ish effect of adjectives/adverbs such as "resolutely"
• Could you say more about his education? How did he get to Dunfermline High School - did he pass a scholarship exam? If he had realistic career choices in accountancy, the civil service or the Church, he must have had been academically successful at school - any details?
• "Scotland Schoolboys": is that a formal team name? Otherwise "Scotland schoolboys".
• What is "Lochgelly Violet"?
• "defender Matt Busby" is insufficient description. Don't force your readers to use links. Likewise re Alex Herd - say who he was.
• What "explanation" was Busby asking for? Some part of the story seems missing here.
• What was the nature of the "studies" that Liddell was allowed to continue?
• I believe that this section should be divided after the second paragraph. The last two paragraphs don't really describe "Early life", and would be better as a section of their own, perhaps called "Wartime career" or some such. Alternatively this could be the first subsection in the Career section
• It seems curious that Liddell was not mobilised until December 1942, more than three years after the outbreak of war. Any reason?
• "He was recalled to Moncton..." Where/what was "Moncton"? (again, don't rely on links)

Career 1946-54

• "Liddell's official debut..." Add "for Liverpool's first team".
• This is a long section in a long article, and I'm a bit concerned about the inclusion of peripheral detail. For example: "Liverpool were unable to replicate its league success in the 1947–48 season, occupying 11th place on its conclusion in May 1948.[25] The club subsequently embarked on a second exhibition tour of North America, playing against domestic sides and Sweden's Djurgården. Guaranteed $30,000 for the tour, Liverpool became the first side to play another foreign club in the United States." This concerns the club's history rather than Liddell's. There are other instances where I believe that material could be excised, e.g the allocation of Cup Final tickets. You also need to decide if "Liverpool" is singular or plural: "Liverpool were (plural) unable to replicate its singular)..." doesn't work.
• "His wife Phyllis..." When did he marry? This is basic biographical information

1954-61

• Caps inconsistency: "Second Division", "first division" in same sentence. But again, the first three sentences are club history, and ought to summarised in a single brief sentence to keep the focus on Liddell. This criticism applies generally to the section.
• "Liddell elected to stay rather than accept a lucrative transfer." I don't know what this means. There was a fixed maximum wage that applied to all clubs, and it was the clubs, not the indivduals, who received transfer fees. So the sentence makes no sense.
• Capitals? "league and cup"
• I think you should mention that at the time of their offer, New Brighton were not members of the Football League.
• Again, as per the lead, what exactly was Sagar's record? It certainly wasn't for the most League appearances by a player. It may have been most appearances for a single club. Whatever it was must be made clear.
• "Shankly selected Liddell to play Derby County..." An "against" is missing.
• Fourth highest goalscorer: he was the club's second highest goalscorer at the time of his retirement.

International

• How are goals "nullified"?
• "He gained several more wartime caps and four goals..." Surely, "scored four goals"? Other prose glitches suggest the need for at least one more copyediting pass.
• "On 19 October 1946, Liddell officially represented Scotland..." Unclear. Try: "On 19 October 1946, Liddell gained fis first full international cap for Scotland..."
• All the stuff about the 1950 World Cup is far too detailed for this article; needs summarising.
• "Qualification for the 1954 World Cup remained identical" Do you mean that qualification rules remained the same as in 1950?
• "humiliating" is POV

Later life and legacy

• How did Liddell become a shareholder? Did he buy the shares or was he given them by the club? Was it a large or a nominal holding?
• The No. 11 shirt story seems a bit of a damp squib.
• Give date for the formation of the Billy Liddell Memorial Group, and name the home village.

I have not picked up on everything, and I reiterate my view that a thoughtful copyedit by fresh eyes would be of benefit. As I am not able to watch all my peer reviews, please leave queries/messages on my talkpage. Brianboulton (talk) 16:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I really appreciate the suggestions and it's heartening to learn of your awareness of Liddell. I'm still in the process of implementing your recommendations, but most of the superficial issues highlighed have been resolved.

• Sagar: Clarified?
• Sentence structure in lead: Clarified?

Early life

• There isn't that much exposition about his education, although Keith's biography does give reasonable attention to it. I've mentioned the subjects Liddell studies at Dunfermline.
• I haven't been able to definitely ascertain whether "Scotland Schoolboys" is indeed a formal noun. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency, but examples of it being used as a noun are here in The Times and The Scotman, while the BBC and the Daily Mail illustrate the discrepancy.
• Military service: There's no elaboration on the reason, only that service was deferred.

Career 1946-1954

• I found that the passage on the volume of submitted applications put into an appropriate perspective, the significance of the club's achievement - and Liddell's importance to that. I've tried to contextualise its relevance. Is it worthy of retention?
• While the level of detail probably does render elements of the prose peripheral, I'm convinced that much of it is still pertinent to the article. It provides context for Liddell's experiences and achivements on the pitch. I'll try to address it with a moderate expansion of Liddell's contribution to each season...even if that only entails mentioning his season tally. I've also begun to consolidate a few sentences, to address any imbalance. This also applies to the following section.
• Thanks for alerting me to that. I'd begun to transition to the singular in my more recent copyedits, which I guess compounded the inconsistency.
• I've rephrased the transfer sentence. He'd have certainly benefitted financially had he transferred to a more successful club or even moved abroad (where wage restrictions either didn't exist or were less draconian). Success with an English first division club would have been lucrative because of bonuses, etc, but unfortunately no sources could substantiate that...

1954-1961

• I've added dates in paranthesis for the goalscorers. Cumbersome?

International:

• In the process of rationalising the detail.

Later life

• Unfortunately, there's no indication of how substantial it was. It was likely nominal...it may have been granted to him as a gift by the club in recognition of his services
• I've contexualised the significance of the shirt. Hopefully it validates its inclusion.

Again, thank you! SoLando (Talk) 18:14, 17 August 2010 (UTC)