Wikipedia:Peer review/Jane Joseph/archive1

Jane Joseph

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Jane Joseph's music is not generally well known. It might have been, if she had not spent so much time ministering to the needs of her guide and guru, Gustav Holst, and if she had lived longer. She was only 34 when she died. Nevertheless, she lived a fulfilled and active life in the musical world of the teens and twenties last century, and was beloved by her many friends. Not an overlong article: please comment as appropriate. Brianboulton (talk) 16:59, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

• Lead
  • First para – two closelys in close proximity. Losing the second one wouldn't harm the sense I think.
  • "her relatively short professional life" – I think you would be better without the adverb here.
  • "oeuvre" – I think I'd italicise this. (I reckon any word that requires me to reposition my palate, vocal chords and lips from their usual position is foreign.) Quite prepared to be told I'm talking rot. Unlike Uncle Tom Travers I am not a beginner at talking rot, and I do it dashed well.

• • I'm not fully convinced about the italicisation, though I have linked it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Linking it to the set index page oeuvre is not helpful, though; I suggest to link to Wiktionary: [[Wikt:oeuvre|oeuvre]] giving oeuvre – or write "works". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:44, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

• I am not sure I agree that the Wiktionary link is better. The original link goes to a definition: "An oeuvre (or œuvre) is a work of art. It can also refer to the complete body of an artist's work", which is definitely helpful. Wiktionary translates the term as "a work of art" and "a complete body of work", thus saying neither more nor less. In the circumstances I think it's best to stick. Brianboulton (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

• • "There are no commercial recordings of Joseph's music" – is there a WP:DATED consideration here? Chandos or Naxos might very well make a liar of you by issuing something of hers at any moment. Possibly something like "in the eight decades after her death there were no commercial recordings…"?
• Family background and early childhood
  • "in the family firm" – possibly in his family firm?

• • I have reworked the first line, but after some dithering I think I prefer "the" to "his"

• St Paul's Girls' School and Gustav Holst
  • "a Foundation scholarship" – two points here: first, capital F really wanted? Secondly, I'm a bit hazy about what a foundation scholarship is, and I bet most of your readers will be too. I'd be inclined to blue-link it (if there is something to link it to) or possibly just say "a scholarship".
  • "sight reading" – the OED hyphenates this
  • "she composed "The Carrion Crow"" – A Proustian moment: I wonder if this is the setting I was taught at my primary school, circa 1959? I must see if the BL has a copy of her setting and check. I digress.
  • "He became a music teacher … in Bloomsbury" – sentence really relevant to the Jane article?
• Student, scribe and teacher, 1913–18
  • "For the rest of her career Joseph remained" – perhaps just "she" rather than reiterating her name?
  • "one of Holst's most regular amanuensis" – plural wanted here
  • "Unsurprisingly" – true, but editorialising a bit perhaps
  • "Adolph Borsdorf" – he has an article of sorts to which I've added a link. You may therefore wish to remove his dates from JJ's article. I have met Mr B before, when overhauling the LSO article. My sources call him Adolf, not Adolph, but this probably doesn't matter enough to fret over.
  • "womens'" – I think this should be "women's"
  • "with the daughter of Thaxted's vicar, Conrad Noel" – this reads oddly: one is expecting the name to be that of the daughter. Perhaps "with Ermintrude, the daughter of Thaxted's vicar, Conrad Noel"
• Teacher, facilitator and composer, 1918–28
  • "conducting lessons from Adrian Boult" – reluctant though I am to discourage links to that absolutely excellent article on Sir Adrian, I feel bound to mention that you have linked to him in the previous section. And I question the relevance of JJ's personal remark about Boult's features (quite apart from its doubtful accuracy, though of course JJ had not the advantage of meeting Michael Gove – the last six-words being a phrase never before uttered and unlikely ever to be uttered again).
    • I included the "chinless" comment because Jane's image is otherwise so pure and angelic as to verge on the annoying. One mildly bitchy remark ever so slightly redresses the blance. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
      • Fair point. Grudging acquiescence. Tim riley (talk) 16:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "These lessons were to enable her to conduct…" – two possible meanings here, and I'm not sure which you intend: (i) the purpose of the lessons was to enable her to conduct… or (ii) the result of the lessons was to enable her ditto.
  • ""Theory with Jane is ripping"" – Oh, can't you hear Imogen's voice saying it! I chuckled at this (not unkindly, I hope).
  • "she had weaved" – quite prepared to receive the soldier's farewell here, but "weaved" looks wrong to me: I'd expect "woven".
  • "the youthful Malcolm Sargent" – from my sexagenarian viewpoint, 30 (as Flash Harry was in 1925) is youthful, but viewed objectively, "young" is OK but "youthful" is perhaps pushing it.
  • "which amusingly reflected" – a touch judgmental; perhaps "humorously"?
  • "the librettist Steuart Wilson" – is this the odious Steuart Wilson who stabbed Boult in the back in the late 1940s, and later waged a campaign against David Webster and "the influence of perverts in the world of music"? If so, holding your nose, you ought, I fear, to blue-link to him.
• Illness, death and tributes
  • "The Coming of Christ, commissioned by George Bell, then Dean of Canterbury, and written by John Masefield." – I wonder if this might flow more smoothly as "The Coming of Christ, by John Masefield, commissioned by George Bell, then Dean of Canterbury." Merely a thought.

• • • Well, commissioning comes before writing, so I thought I'd better leave it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• • "she was buried in Willesden Jewish Cemetery" – her father's middle name in the opening of the biog is a pointer, and plainly her race and/or religion didn't loom large, but perhaps some passing mention that she was of a Jewish family might be appropriate earlier on.

• • • Done. It seems that the family was secular, Jane particularly so, or she would perhaps not have associated herself so closely with "The Coming of Christ", or written tunes for a Christian hymnal. However, to explain the reference to the Jewish Cemetery, I have said early on that she came from a Jewish family. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Music
  • "were mainly of songs" – is the "of" wanted here?
  • "presage of Holst's" – I think (somewhat tentatively) that the "of" isn't wanted here, either.

I enjoyed this article very much, and learned much from it – not only about the lady herself but about Holst too, despite all our joint delving a few weeks ago. If there is available to all on the internet any article on JJ one half as good as this I shall be mightily surprised. – Tim riley (talk) 20:15, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Done as you suggest, except as noted. Thank you for these comments, and for the numerous typos that you picked up and corrected. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

• Excellent short work, very little to comment about besides that:

Lede

• "acted as his librettist" Why not simply "was his librettist"?

Student, etc.:

• "Under the Cambridge University regulations then applying—not fully repealed until 1948" Given that we are told the regulations are no longer in force, is the "then applying" truly necessary?
• Did Joseph participate in any war-related activities while at Cambridge?

• No information in sources on this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• "became a part-time welfare officer in Islington." Perhaps a connection could be drawn to the war effort. Did it free up manpower for the trenches?

• Although not explicitly stated in the sources, I think it is implicit that all women's war work, whether on the land, in factories or elsewhere, helped to release manpower for active service. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Teacher etc.

• "a means of promoting the interests of women musicians" It is, after all, the Society of Women Musicians. Suggest even a slight textual variation.

• I really struggled with this, seeking alternative wording that didn't sound forces. I'm not sure that what I have now is any better. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• Unbidden Riley oar coming in: this redraft seems much more felicitous to me. Tim riley (talk) 17:01, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• "the Joseph home in Kensington" I may have missed it, but with whom did she dwell as an adult, or at least following her father's death? Is this the house of her birth? As you gave the location as Notting Hill and are now calling (I assume the same house) Kensington, those unfamiliar with London geography may be puzzled and not understand you are talking about (in all likelihood) the same place.

• Notting Hill is indeed within the Borough of Kensington, and I have clarified this. I've also clarified that Jane lived in the family home all her life. I can't be absolutely certain that this home remained the house she was born in; it is possible that her parents (or mother) moved to another house in Kensington at some point, but ther is no source information on this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Illness, etc.

• "she was buried in Willesden Jewish Cemetery." I suggest some mention of her religion in the family background section. It should not be left for her interment (and, I see, a category) to mention it.

• Tim raised this - see my answer above. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

• "at an open-air production of Holst's The Golden Goose, a special performance of his St Paul's Suite was played in Joseph's honour." Perhaps include the venue where this occurred?

Excellently done.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:05, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. Except as noted I have followed your recommendations. Brianboulton (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Sarastro: I can't find a lot to nit-pick here. This is a sad little story, very well told.

• "Jane was the fourth child of the marriage, having three brothers the youngest of whom was seven years older than she.": Should this not be "than her"? (And in either case, it sounds a little awkward.)
• I can't help noticing that she was a school contemporary of Percy Fender, who was at the St Paul's Boys school!
• "and won a prize for sight-reading.": Although my musical ignorance doesn't stretch quite so far, I wonder if this could be linked to sight-reading, to avoid any readers imagining her reading from an optician's letter chart?
• "Jane encountered the then emergent composer Gustav Holst,": Should "then emergent" be hyphenated?
• "Holst had earned his living as an organist and as a trombonist in various orchestras": Could we avoid the repetition of "as a/an"?

• They are separate things: "an organist", and "a trombonist in various orchestras". I have added a comma after "organist" to clarify this. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

• "while awaiting recognition as a composer": Perhaps "critical recognition"?
• "Edwin expressing concern about Holst's health.[44] When following his health breakdown": Repetition of health in quick succession.
• Although I suspect it would be included if it existed, is there anything about her personal life other than the "lonely" comment?

• There is nothing beyond what I included, and I doubt that further information exists. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Sarastro1 (talk) 17:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for the review. Except as noted I have made the necessary fixes. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat

Minor fare for you to consider:

Family background

• "Jane was the fourth child of the marriage, having three brothers the youngest being seven years older than she": should there be some punctuation between "brothers" and "the"?

• I have revised the slightly awkward wording to something better. Brianboulton (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Girton

• CUMS. Is there any need for the abbreviation? She could have "sung alto in the society's choir" just as well

• Good point: lets get shot of the alphabet soup. Brianboulton (talk)

Excellently done, as always. - SchroCat (talk) 04:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks – and also for your invaluable ellipsis check which, as always, I continue to oerlook. Brianboulton (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2013 (UTC)