Wikipedia:Peer review/Len Hutton/archive1

Len Hutton

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I have been working on it for a long time and hope to take it to FAC. However, I can no longer see the wood for the trees! It is quite a long article but I cannot actually see where it can be cut; any advice on if and where it is too long would be much appreciated. Also a general look at the prose would help as I have been picking away at it for so long, there may be some lumpy parts. The images still need work and there are several to be added.

Thanks, Sarastro1 (talk) 20:26, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Harrias ^talk 00

45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a few quick things from me, I'll try and come back for a fuller review later:

• The lead image looks too big; looking at the details, it is a 108 × 169 pixel image which is being forced up to 230 x 360 pixels: I'd suggest inserting an image size parameter into the infobox to shrink it to a more natural size.
• Are there no other appropriate images? I don't think we should put images into articles for the sake of it; but it definitely looks like it could benefit from some! We really need to get a photo of the Lord's honours board: it would be perfect for articles like this..
• I've found it useful lately to include the OCLC numbers for books, particular those that are pre-ISBN. For example, the Derek Birley book is here: OCLC, which can be linked to like so:
• Bowes, Bill (1949). Express Deliveries. London: Stanley Paul. OCLC 643924774.
• You can use the search function from there to find each of the other books. Definitely not a must, but as I say: I've found it useful!

That's all from my quick glance: as I said, I'll try to come back and have another look, probably in the new year. Harrias ^talk 00:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

• The images need work and that won't be the lead image much longer. As such, I'm not going to tweak it yet and yes there will be more images soon (hopefully...) --Sarastro1 (talk) 15:40, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: The article reads well; the prose is clean and clear. Jargon is linked adequately, I think. I'm in no position to say whether the article is comprehensive, but to a non-cricketer it appears to be. I confess that I have trouble paying attention in sports articles to the large blocks of scoring details and descriptions of individual matches, so it's entirely possible that I missed little things here and there. Nevertheless, nothing big leaps out at me as needing fixing.

Lead

• "he became the first professional cricketer of the twentieth century to captain England" - Use digits for numbers bigger than nine, in this case "20th century"?

Career after the War

• Lowercase "war" in the head?

• "tried to keep out of the clashes between members of the Yorkshire team" - "Among" rather than "between" since the clashes involved more than two people?

Early life

• "made his first appearance for the club's second eleven aged 12"- I first took this to mean that the second eleven consisted of boys who were all 12 years old. Slightly more clear might be "made his first appearance at age 12 for the club's second eleven".

• "recommending that Yorkshire take a look at him as a good prospect... " - Tighten to "recommending that Yorkshire view him as a good prospect... "?

• "a former Yorkshire cricketer now responsible for assessing and coaching young players" - Delete the vague word, "now", which might be taken to mean "in 2011"?

First years with Yorkshire

• "Hutton made his first-class debut for Yorkshire in 1934, at the age of seventeen... " - Digits for 17?

• "an unbeaten fifty runs in his second match and followed this with another fifty" - Digits for "50" unless traditionally spelled out like "century", "hundred", and "eleven"?

• Kept this as fifty: as you say, it is traditionally spelt out to avoid confusion with an exact score of 50. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Tour to South Africa

• "From October 1938, Hutton toured South Africa with the MCC under the captaincy of Hammond... " - I'm probably just not seeing it, but has the MCC been mentioned before this? What is it? Marylebone Cricket Club?

• My mistake: clarified and added a note about what it was too. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Wartime injury and recovery

• "including one at Lord's" - Not sure what "Lord's" refers to.

First tour to Australia

• "was taken ill overnight with tonsillitis" - Link tonsillitis?

Series against South Africa..."

• "However, injuries severely affected that team, and its captain Gubby Allen for reinforcements." - Missing word? Maybe "... its captain, Gubby Allen, called for reinforcements"?

Bibliography

• Since you've included hyphens for some of the ISBNs, you'll probably want to do the same for the rest. A handy converter tool lives here.

• You might want to include OCLCs for the books lacking ISBNs. WorldCat usually has these. Here's the item for the Bill Bowes book: Express deliveries.

Finetooth (talk) 20:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Much obliged for your comments. I've done them all except the "fifties" one. Thanks. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Comments

• Test cricket is linked twice in the lead.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• It's a Cricketers' Almanac, not a Cricketer's one...

Oops... --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Seems odd that cricket itself isn't linked until the fourth use of the word "cricket" (or one of its derivatives).

I'm not too sure how to get around this. I took out Yorkshire County Cricket Club to make it easier, but the first mention is "Test cricketer" which links better to Tests. It may be better now?

• "in a Test match " is repeated quickly, maybe use "in Test match cricket" or just "in Test cricket" or something to break the monotony.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• I think (but I could be argued with) that we usually refer to the The Ashes as The Ashes always, and not the Ashes...

A quick check of Wisden gave me "the Ashes" rather than The Ashes. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• " to break the Test innings record in only his sixth Test" repetitive, and what do you mean by "innings record"? Not clear at all.

Tried to clear it up; left it now as "his record 364" as the previous paragraph describes how he scored the highest individual innings. Better?

• "However, during the war, he received a serious injury to his arm and took a long time to recover and this affected his batting afterwards." as a result of being involved in what aspect of the war? And naturally it would be "afterwards", it couldn't be before, so this is redundant.

Had a go but may still need work. What do you think?

• " England's tour to Australia in 1950–51" probably a link for this?

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• " the batting relied very heavily on him" nope, England relied on him for his batting.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "but with his batting making a large contribution," picky, but needs reword, you mean to say his contribution to the team was significant as a result of his successful innings with the bat, but you need a better way of putting it than the current phrasing.

Better? --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Hutton continued as captain, although his leadership was at times controversial, until 1954–55." reads odd, maybe "Hutton continued as captain until the 1954–55 season, although his leadership was at times controversial."

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• " from all cricket." -> "from all forms of cricket".

Actually went for "regular first-class cricket" as he continued to play occasionally in f-c and other games. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Link "knighted" in the lead.

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "As a batsman, Hutton was cautious and his batting style was built ..." do you need to reiterate "batting" here as you've introduced this with "As a batsman"?

Probably not. Gone. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "depended greatly on him " maybe "depended on him greatly"

Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "conscious of responsibility" you mean he knew there were expectations of him? Needs a re-word.

Any better? --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "Even so, Hutton remains..." why "Even so"? He was a good batsman, yes he knew he was relied upon, but why would that need an "Even so"?

Gone. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• "best of Test batsmen" in the world or just England?

World. Tried to clarify but not sure if I have done it. Trying not to be too clunky. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

• Lead ends rather prematurely. What happened to him after cricket, after selecting etc?

A little more added. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:38, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

That's the lead, I could carry on if required, so let me know on my talk page. Hope this helps. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: These will be a bit sporadic, as and when I can find a little time. Just on the lead:-

• I don't think it's particularly accurate to describe a playing career that lasted from 1934 to 1955 as being "in the years around the Second World War". Suggest amend to "before and after the Second World War".

• Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• For non-cricketing readers: "scoring 364 runs"

• Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• "a serious injury to his arm taking part in a commando training course." Needs "while" before "taking part"

• Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• It is not necessary to mention his 1952 captaincy and the 1953 Ashes win in both the first and second paragraphs

• Changed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• Unnecessary switch to passive voice: "Hutton was cautious and his style was built on a sound defence". Suggest "Hutton was cautious and built his style on a sound defence".

• Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

• The organisation of lead material is slightly odd. Having reported Hutton's death at the end of paragraph two, the lead ends by going back to the early 50s and the (fairly inconsequential) information about his avoidance of dressing-room squabbles. I'd rethink this.

• Tried to rework the last paragraph into the others. Is it any better? To be honest, I'm not thrilled with the lead generally and any other suggestions would be gratefully received. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Back, as and when... Brianboulton (talk) 23:09, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Note: I have copyedited the Early life and First years with Yorkshire sections & will carry on with this. Brianboulton (talk) 20:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, much appreciated. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay; I've copyedited two more sections, but would like you to deal with the following:-

Test match debut

• Where and when did he make his Test debut? Where and when did he make his maiden Test century? Dates and locations are important in these articles. Also, exactly how many did he score when making his maiden century?
• Likewise, where and when was Hutton's debut Ashes match played?
• Against whom and where was Hutton's finger broken?

• All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Test record score

• Say where/when the final Test was played - crucial to the story.
• Is there a link to explain "cut"? (Otherwise "Hutton passed Bradman's score with a cut off Chuck Fleetwood-Smith" will read mysteriously to Americans)

• Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Will continue Brianboulton (talk) 19:15, 13 January 2012 (UTC)